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Muzyka: Dragon Age 2 "one of the most polarising launches we've had"


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#1176
Morroian

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

I simply cannot see how recycling game environments, bringing people back from the dead with little to no explanation, restricting companion armor so that EA can sell DLC (as we've already seen), and refusing to release a toolset to further restrict the community could possibly be called "Innovation".

Who has called any of that innovative?

What is innovative about the game has been mentioned many many times by now so why do people persist in raising these strawman arguments about what clearly isn't innovative about the game. 

#1177
Guest_PureMethodActor_*

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LobselVith8 wrote...

PureMethodActor wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PureMethodActor wrote...

I will admit, with all the problems I had with DA2, I did like the character development (what little there was) of Orsino and Meredith, Meredith especially. After reading the codex about her and seeing the final section of Act 2, she seemed very reasonable. Hardball, obviously, but still reasonable in my book. and I can empathize with her backstory, too, and see why she's so hardcore about Templar policies (which I became a fan of after seeing all Mage arguments presented essentially nullified by nearly every mage but Bethany being a crazy blood mage, or otherwise being posessed or crazy).


How is every mage argument nullified when the templar antagonists prove to be just as insane as the mage antagonists? Even the choice that Hawke is faced with towards the end of Act III is made by two people who will prove to be mentally unbalanced. Part of the problem with the narrative was that it was hard to take the dichotomy between mages and templars seriously when both groups were made out to be so repellant in the storyline. I would have preferred to see both sides lead by sane people who simply wanted different outcomes for their respective groups than two antagonists who devolved into caricatures.


How are are Orsino and Meredith insane before Act 3? I saw no evidence at all in Acts 1 or 2 that Orsino or Meredith. To me they're only insane during the course of Act 3 and thats why I only mentioned that timeframe for insanity on both their ends.


Do you mean in general? We have Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras on one side, and Decimus and Grace on the other. If you mean the antagonists, in the conclusion both of them are insane. We hardly see either antagonist in Acts I or II to even get a sense of their character, and I felt there was no real character development for either character.


I did mean in general as far as Mages/Templars go, and those are individuals, who are very extreme on eachother's ends. Overall though I found more extremists among the mages then the templars.

As for Orsino and Meredith, I go by the first codex entries and their Act 2 appearances, and I felt there was enough dialogue in that section to establish character, if the writers decided to remain consistent with both characters. Sadly that wasn't the case and thats why you have randomly-changing antagonists.

Hell, Grace was very inconsistent on a writing standpoint throughout her entire time in the game. A lot of characters were.

#1178
Barbarossa2010

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I'm not at all surprised DAA sold a fraction of the copies of DAO.  One, I would bet that this is a normal trend for AAA titles (just guessing here); and two, to me, DAA was a key indicator that business would now be conducted differently in the franchise, and frankly  it showed.  Hence, it didn't have near the strong word of mouth (which extended to DA2) that DAO had.  DAO sold so well (and is still selling strong relative to the length of time that has passed since realease [with a sequel thrown in the middle to boot]) because it was (and is) a great game that was (and still is) well received.  IMO DA2 merely continued a downward trend of attempting to package far less product for the same purchase point.  At least DAA was priced at $40 US. 

BW tried the packaging and marketing sleight of hand associated with a streamlined development budget, and quite frankly it didn't work in extending the fan base built with Origins, and only seemed to alienate those who may have otherwise been brand loyal.  It may have added a few fans, and DA2 may, in fact, be more profitable, but it won't hold with the loss of a majority of the "Origins" base.  DA3 pre-sales will be far less than DA2 in my humble prediction and it will be an uphill battle in marketing to the millions who (if sales are any indication) loved Origins and felt left behind in DA2.  I personally think the majority want more Origins and BW in word and deed, is telling us it ain't gonna happen, for whatever reasons of realpolitik/business that don't really concern me, as I'm only a consumer concerned with end product quality and it's price point.   DA is what it is now, and even though BW says they are listening (in truth, I question which fans they're listening to since Origns received such a radical overhaul that was not needed imo, based on fan feedback), no amount of soliciting and lobbying appears to change (at least from what we see in their public statements) what they're willing or able to give Origins lovers.  So, I get it, Origins will not ever happen again with BW/EA...move along.

DAO was my conversion story from sole FPS/TPS action gaming to RPGs.  I consumed it through seven playthroughs.  In my "DA2 targeted demographic view," BW should have stuck with the Origins formula.  Should've converted slowly and penetrated more deeply over time.  I know full well the gaming demographic that I came from, and they are not, by and large, going to play a "gay" fantasy game.  Casual gamers won't even look at it unless it is watered-down to the point that it virtually plays itself, so I'm still not sure who they are really targeting for DA.  Accessibilty?  For who...specifically?  DAO was the formula that did it for me, and I can only speak for me and the few shooter fans I personally know that loved it.  What they hoped to achieve (and failed by all indicators we have access to) with DA2, Origins actually did...for me (and them) at least.

I'm sure BW's telemetry showed some key indicator that pointed them in the direction they went.  Their methodology of reading these data might be flawed however.  Combine that with a radical constraining in resourcing and their landscape has now turned from production of immersive labors of love, to merely trying to remain competitive in a saturated action/hack and slash genre.

I don't envy Bioware on this one, I'm just sad I will no longer get from them what brought me from the other side to begin with. If this weren't a business relationship, I would say I felt betrayed, but that is, of course, not applicable.  Since we serve at each others pleasure, we can part ways and I can thank them for introducing me to a world of gaming that I had previously never known.  Hopefully, they'll find the magic again in the future.  I personally think the ill-feeling and gaping hole in the gaming market of what ardent Origins fans are looking for (and it appears a larger number than I once thought), will be satisfied by smaller studios in the future that will emerge as talent migrates, who won't have to sell 1-2 million copies to break even.  In the meantime there are a few offerings coming in from studios that are more than willing to give their established fanbases more of what they want.

Just my humble consumer's opinion though.

**Respectful.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 22 juin 2011 - 12:59 .


#1179
Jaldaric

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Very well said Barbarossa. In my opinion I think you said some valid points.

*salute*

#1180
Iwasdrunkbro

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Morroian wrote...

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

I simply cannot see how recycling game environments, bringing people back from the dead with little to no explanation, restricting companion armor so that EA can sell DLC (as we've already seen), and refusing to release a toolset to further restrict the community could possibly be called "Innovation".

Who has called any of that innovative?

What is innovative about the game has been mentioned many many times by now so why do people persist in raising these strawman arguments about what clearly isn't innovative about the game. 


Since when are core gameplay elements like game environments or even the main story a strawman argument?Just because something has been discussed before doesnt make it any less valid. Dragon Age was supposed to be the "spiritual successor to baldurs gate". The series was supposed to be for gamers that enjoy RPGs not to draw in the braindead AWESOME buttom mashers. Those of us that enjoy real RPGs have no home anymore. All we have is these stupid mmos that nobody wants to play because everything has to be a first person shooter now.

#1181
Morroian

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

Since when are core gameplay elements like game environments or even the main story a strawman argument?Just because something has been discussed before doesnt make it any less valid. 

Like I said no-one is claiming they're innovative or that the game as a whole is innovative, just some elements of it. Its a strawman because its being raised just so the whole argument can be refuted. I dunno why people get so hot and bothered by it, being innovative is no indicator of quality.

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

Dragon Age was supposed to be the "spiritual successor to baldurs gate". The series was supposed to be for gamers that enjoy RPGs not to draw in the braindead AWESOME buttom mashers. Those of us that enjoy real RPGs have no home anymore. All we have is these stupid mmos that nobody wants to play because everything has to be a first person shooter now.

The series wasn't the spiritual successor, just DAO, and even then thats not really true. IMHO its more like kotor. As for 'real' rpg players not enjoying it I've been playing rpgs since kotor, since then I went back and played BG2. I know others who have been rpg players for longer who like it, so that position doesn't hold.

#1182
Dormiglione

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@Barbarossa2010

Great post. I agree with many of your points.

#1183
Joy Divison

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I'll say this. I liked Dragon Age 2. The problem, for me, is that Dragon Age: Origins is without a doubt one of the top three games I ever played.

It did do some things that were "innovative." I respect some of the willingness to change things up and improve on some of the flaws in Origins. And to an extent, it is unfair that DA2 is judged against Origins.

That being said, it is quite clear from playing DA2 that too many yes-men were involved in development and judging from this interview there are still too many yes-men associated with DA2.

#1184
Iwasdrunkbro

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Like I said no-one is claiming they're innovative or that the game as a whole is innovative, just some elements of it. Its a strawman because its being raised just so the whole argument can be refuted. I dunno why people get so hot and bothered by it, being innovative is no indicator of quality.


And what exactly is the argument here? Im curious, what about Dragon Age 2 was innovative? I cant think of one single thing that this game has done that hasnt been done better in another game. The only thing that comes to mind is everything that made this game worse than almost every other Bioware game released in the past 10 years. Where is the innovation? When something has more faults than positives its not a strawman to say the game basically did nothing right.

Im right to question the ability of the writers on this team when dead characters just randomly show up because they did a horrible job. In what other form of entertainment could you throw the story out the window just because you 'need them back'? Lets see someone try that in a tv series or movie. In what other form of entertainment could you force people to go through the same content over and over and then argue with them when they complain?

The entire team that created this game was lazy. It was rushed out the door to make a quick profit. There is absolutely nothing innovative about it.

The series wasn't the spiritual successor, just DAO, and even then thats not really true. IMHO its more like kotor. As for 'real' rpg players not enjoying it I've been playing rpgs since kotor, since then I went back and played BG2. I know others who have been rpg players for longer who like it, so that position doesn't hold.


I never said Dragon Age was unplayable. Infact, I havent even stated that I didnt enjoy it. I did enjoy the game... to a point. The only argument I have is that compared to Origins its a HUGE step backwards. The direction this series is being taken is wrong. For some reason Bioware thinks that they need to bring in an audience that doesnt play fantasy rpgs. FPS fans do not want to ****** around with elves and dwarves. So why is Bioware screwing over the people that actually play their games to cater to people that dont want to play their games?

#1185
RangerSG

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First of all, to say there was nothing new about DA2 is just as absurd as the claim that it's the "new" elements of the game that grated on fans. The personality-influenced dialogue is new, and isn't done nearly as well in ME or Alpha Protocol, the only games to do something similar. The iconic NPC looks are a distinct change (whether that should be called "innovation" is another question), and it's not a bad idea, just one that could've been implemented better.

The problem with Muzyka's interview is it seems a backtrack from what Laidlaw said on the forum at the beginning of the month, which while not completely mollifying, showed that the developers understood the core of the complaint. This article seems to go back to the pre-DA2 marketing assault on Origin and say "We were right, our fans don't get it. But they'll come along eventually."

That's pandering. And it's blatantly inaccurate. It's not the FACT of a voiced protagonist that turns most fans off, it's the WAY it was implemented. It's not the FACT of iconic apparel or faster combat that's protested. It's the way these were done.

Add onto that the OBVIOUS nature of the recycled areas (especially the exterior and underground ones), and that is what makes for a disenchanted fanbase. Laidlaw's statements seemed to clearly sympathize. But this article acted oblivious to legitimate fan concerns and instead accused anyone who expresses even modest disappointment as being a rube who doesn't know enough to appreciate innovation.

The right response is to point out how wrong that argument is, not to prove it right by claiming there's "nothing new" in the game when it's obvious there is.

#1186
SafetyShattered

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Did this guy honestly say that the reason why some people didn't like DA2 was because DA2 was innovative and some people just wanted more of the same? Well thats great to say.... I liked DA2 a lot but there was obviously some pretty huge flaws in it. Him saying that is like saying "the reason why people didn't like our perfect game is because their stupid and refuse to accept change." It obviously had nothing to do with the glitch fest....or the reused environments.....and the fact that the story really didn't get good until you get pretty far into the game. I love DA2...I'm on my 3rd playthrough right now but I just want this guy to admit that DA2 had some pretty big problems. Still looking forward to DA3...... but I want them them to admit that DA2 was not perfect.

#1187
In Exile

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StreetlightEagle wrote...

"so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them." This is absolutely absurd. Everybody who hated DAII has come to terms with the fact it's not the game they wanted it to be. The problem is that they loved Origins and loved the direction it was going. DAII is not just one game they can decide is not for them, it represents the butchering of a franchise 'that could have been.' If they knew they were getting more Origins-esque stuff in the future, they'd happily leave DAII alone. Obviously, 'they' is 'I'.


As I tried to explain multiple times in multiple threads, it is more likely that TOR triples WOW's totals than Bioware making a game like DA:O under EA's current business model.

#1188
LobselVith8

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PureMethodActor wrote...

I did mean in general as far as Mages/Templars go, and those are individuals, who are very extreme on eachother's ends. Overall though I found more extremists among the mages then the templars.

As for Orsino and Meredith, I go by the first codex entries and their Act 2 appearances, and I felt there was enough dialogue in that section to establish character, if the writers decided to remain consistent with both characters. Sadly that wasn't the case and thats why you have randomly-changing antagonists.

Hell, Grace was very inconsistent on a writing standpoint throughout her entire time in the game. A lot of characters were.


The mage and templar schism is pretty much a "chicken and the egg" argument, but it gets lost when both sides have their factions acting like they received a lobotomy before Hawke encounters them. I think the dichotomy between the two would have been better with sane and intelligent people on both sides of the debate, instead of sadism and madness befalling templars and mages to the point that it becomes ridiculous.

#1189
Morroian

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

And what exactly is the argument here? Im curious, what about Dragon Age 2 was innovative? 

Already answered, the friendship/rivalry system.

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

The entire team that created this game was lazy. It was rushed out the door to make a quick profit. There is absolutely nothing innovative about it.

See here you're just being insulting to those how undoubtedly worked hard on the game without trying to understand what goes in to making the game. If anything the game is unpolished because they tried to do to much in to short a short time frame. It should have had 6 months more dev time without a doubt.

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

I never said Dragon Age was unplayable. Infact, I havent even stated that I didnt enjoy it. I did enjoy the game... to a point. The only argument I have is that compared to Origins its a HUGE step backwards. The direction this series is being taken is wrong. For some reason Bioware thinks that they need to bring in an audience that doesnt play fantasy rpgs. FPS fans do not want to ****** around with elves and dwarves. So why is Bioware screwing over the people that actually play their games to cater to people that dont want to play their games?

I play their games, it hasn't screwed me over. I can role play better in DA2 than I could in DAO, it comes down to personal preference and immersion. In fact if the area recycling was minimised and the writing in Act 3 was better I could say without a shadow of a doubt that DA2 was the better game, as it is I enjoy DA2 more.

#1190
Morroian

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Shadowfang12 wrote...

Did this guy honestly say that the reason why some people didn't like DA2 was because DA2 was innovative and some people just wanted more of the same?


He said 'maybe'. 

Modifié par Morroian, 22 juin 2011 - 05:52 .


#1191
erynnar

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[quote]Morroian wrote...

[quote]Shadowfang12 wrote...

Did this guy honestly say that the reason why some people didn't like DA2 was because DA2 was innovative and some people just wanted more of the same? /quote]

He said 'maybe'. 

[/quote]

Sorry, but I am usuaally a nicer person--chalk it iup to stress or just that I'm really a ****--but I have the overwhelming urge to tell him where to stick his "maybe."

#1192
alex90c

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Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I know full well the gaming demographic that I came from, and they are not, by and large, going to play a "gay" fantasy game.  Casual gamers won't even look at it unless it is watered-down to the point that it virtually plays itself, so I'm still not sure who they are really targeting for DA.  Accessibilty?  For who...specifically? 


This. So much this. I've been playing shooting games and strategy games since I was like, 8 and DA:O was my first RPG and I just fell in love with it. I wish Bioware would just realise that if someone wants to play an actiony, exciting game they're going to pick up a damn shooter, not think "lets play an RPG!".

#1193
RangerSG

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Morroian wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...

Did this guy honestly say that the reason why some people didn't like DA2 was because DA2 was innovative and some people just wanted more of the same?


He said 'maybe'.


That doesn't let him off the hook. The reasons for dissatisfaction have been made painfully clear on the forum. There's no reason for an insulting side-swipe at the fanbase. I agree with a lot of what you say, but don't swing all the way over into saying the Marketing types haven't misread and insulted their audience, because that's demonstrably wrong and has been shown from articles like this and the Silverman hit job on You-Tube.

#1194
Iwasdrunkbro

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In Exile wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

"so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them." This is absolutely absurd. Everybody who hated DAII has come to terms with the fact it's not the game they wanted it to be. The problem is that they loved Origins and loved the direction it was going. DAII is not just one game they can decide is not for them, it represents the butchering of a franchise 'that could have been.' If they knew they were getting more Origins-esque stuff in the future, they'd happily leave DAII alone. Obviously, 'they' is 'I'.


As I tried to explain multiple times in multiple threads, it is more likely that TOR triples WOW's totals than Bioware making a game like DA:O under EA's current business model.


As unlikely as it may seem, TOR actually has the opportunity to do this... eventually. WOW is losing alot of subscriptions right now because they keep playing the same old stupid game of FoTM and they refuse to fire the people that are literally destroying the game. Instead they praise 'him'. Regardless of that TOR will likely not come out the gate and be the top mmo, but with enough advertising (which a new game in this genre needs more than any other), it can get a nice start. This all however requires Bioware to have actually made a damn good game under EA leadership which, as of yet, hasnt happend. Though I do suspect that EA understands what both companies have riding on TOR and it wont be some rushed garbage... then again its EA so really, who knows?

#1195
SkittlesKat96

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Eh I think people are misinterpreting the point of some of the developers a bit.

They aren't saying the game was flawless or excellent and no body understood it...they realize the game was rushed and had flaws it shouldn't of had and there other games didn't have. They understand that but people don't realize that that is exactly why the game is getting a critical reception and that not many reviews are saying things like "The game was bad because of voiced protagonist, new companion system, design and graphics, and its oversimplified"

The voiced protagonist, companion system and new design and graphics were all good things and if you think about it they are moving to the future and are technically by definition 'innovative' (even if the companions weren't as interesting and they didn't do it as well as how they did it in DAO, that does not equate to the DAO companion system/features being better at all...)

Anyway my point is some people are taking it out of context and/or misinterpreting some things...and I kind of dislike how a small vocal group of core fans think that everybody thinks the exact same way they do and that the opinion of the forum represents all the reviewers and fanbase of DA 2. DA 2 was a mediocre game sure but a lot of its being mediocre is for different reasons than you think (when it comes to how the whole playerbase of DA 2 views it anyway)

#1196
Il Divo

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

As unlikely as it may seem, TOR actually has the opportunity to do this... eventually. WOW is losing alot of subscriptions right now because they keep playing the same old stupid game of FoTM and they refuse to fire the people that are literally destroying the game. Instead they praise 'him'. Regardless of that TOR will likely not come out the gate and be the top mmo, but with enough advertising (which a new game in this genre needs more than any other), it can get a nice start. This all however requires Bioware to have actually made a damn good game under EA leadership which, as of yet, hasnt happend. Though I do suspect that EA understands what both companies have riding on TOR and it wont be some rushed garbage... then again its EA so really, who knows?


While I'm not a huge MMO fan, TOR is also taking a very different approach to storylines than what we've seen in the past. And unlike Galaxies, it's not having identity issues about whether or not it wants to include Force-users from the start. There's alot of potential for TOR, considering its use of the Star Wars brand and especially considering WoW's current decline.

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 juin 2011 - 10:15 .


#1197
Frybread76

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SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Eh I think people are misinterpreting the point of some of the developers a bit.

They aren't saying the game was flawless or excellent and no body understood it...they realize the game was rushed and had flaws it shouldn't of had and there other games didn't have. They understand that but people don't realize that that is exactly why the game is getting a critical reception and that not many reviews are saying things like "The game was bad because of voiced protagonist, new companion system, design and graphics, and its oversimplified"

The voiced protagonist, companion system and new design and graphics were all good things and if you think about it they are moving to the future and are technically by definition 'innovative' (even if the companions weren't as interesting and they didn't do it as well as how they did it in DAO, that does not equate to the DAO companion system/features being better at all...)

Anyway my point is some people are taking it out of context and/or misinterpreting some things...and I kind of dislike how a small vocal group of core fans think that everybody thinks the exact same way they do and that the opinion of the forum represents all the reviewers and fanbase of DA 2. DA 2 was a mediocre game sure but a lot of its being mediocre is for different reasons than you think (when it comes to how the whole playerbase of DA 2 views it anyway)


"A small vocal group of core fans?"  LOL

And I don't think anyone is misunderstanding Muzyka and the other DA2 developers when they say people just don't like the game because they can't handle "change" and "innovation."

#1198
snfonseka

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A combination of several lies. Anyway the success of DA:O affected the pre-orders of DA2 and first week sales. Same will happen to DA3, where its' pre-orders and first week sales will be determined by DA2.

Modifié par snfonseka, 22 juin 2011 - 10:40 .


#1199
Annarl

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Morroian wrote...

Shadowfang12 wrote...

Did this guy honestly say that the reason why some people didn't like DA2 was because DA2 was innovative and some people just wanted more of the same?


He said 'maybe'. 


He really shouldn't have said it at all.  It just doesn't sound good.  I don't think he meant it as a swipe at the fans but it can be read that way.  And I would say they really should stop using the word innovate (and any of its tense) in these interviews. 

On the positive side for Bioware is the fact so many people care so much about Dragon Age.  

Modifié par omearaee, 22 juin 2011 - 03:15 .


#1200
In Exile

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Iwasdrunkbro wrote...
As unlikely as it may seem, TOR actually has the opportunity to do this... eventually. WOW is losing alot of subscriptions right now because they keep playing the same old stupid game of FoTM and they refuse to fire the people that are literally destroying the game. Instead they praise 'him'. Regardless of that TOR will likely not come out the gate and be the top mmo, but with enough advertising (which a new game in this genre needs more than any other), it can get a nice start. This all however requires Bioware to have actually made a damn good game under EA leadership which, as of yet, hasnt happend. Though I do suspect that EA understands what both companies have riding on TOR and it wont be some rushed garbage... then again its EA so really, who knows?


ME2 was an excellent game under EA leadership. Certainly better than ME1. Say what you want about it as an RPG, but it was well designed.

What does FoTM mean?