1248 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Fortlowe wrote...

Guns wrote...

What angers me the most is this is all time wasted that could've been spent on make, you know, a good game.

Time is precisely the issue, in my opinion. Not enough was spent making this game, I think. Considering not only the proven precident that it takes at least 24 months to develop a AAA game, but that DA2 was meant to take the franchise into a vastly different direction, well the shortened dev cycle for DA2 is to blame for the subpar showing of DA2, if you ask me.

More time might have helped with the maps and maybe an central character gear system , but I think the changes they made would have resulted in rage even if they have three years to make the game.

[Persephone]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Alpha Protocol did everything that is in DA2 BETTER and it came out FIRST. It is obviously the better game(not technically, though).

Really.........NOT.

Though the "Everything DAII did was in AP already" is an interesting new fad, if highly inaccurate. (Having played AP A LOT, I'm so not falling for that one)

[DragonRageGT]

Persephone wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Patch 1.03 is one of the most extensive Bioware has ever done. Reading the patch notes makes that very clear.

I'm quite sure it can be done, it'll just take time and some serious effort.

All that in a 23MB file? I don't know... I really don't know....

The size of a patch is not a big indication of its quality or content, you know?

True. But when an amazing game like Gothic 3 received a 900MB patch from the community (reasons for non official patch are well known I hope)... I can only imagine that DA2 would need some 200MB patch minimum to make it the epic it promised to be.

And I agree with Addai:

Addai67 wrote...

That PR line makes me angrier every time I see it. Using Origins' popularity to try to skate by on much curtailed development time- a lot of critics call DA2 a cynical cash grab- is not "innovation." Stop trying to sell it as such, because the PRspeak is so blatant that it just makes things worse. Bioware, you're insulting our intelligence. Unless you really think your fanbase has none. I know the forums can cause doubt...

And these forums may very well be used as an accurate sampling. I don't think they hear more than 5% of a country population and election pools are quite accurate. I've never answered one. Have any of you? There were 500k people registered here after Origins, I imagine that number increased a lot with DA2 "promotion" here and on FB. What I really doubt is that DA2 has been that successful with  "A LOT" of Origins fans. It's clearly a real small number of people who love Origins and love DA2 just as much or more, like Persephone, one of a kind.

[Persephone]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Most extensive patch Bioware has ever done for DA 2 or any of their games? And yes, I'm seriously asking this.

One OF the most extensive, not THE most extensive.

Yay, what I'm saying is twisted too. Joy!

Apparently people forget some of the huge NWN patches years after release.

I hate NWN but no. Hence the "One OF..." phrasing, :innocent:

[Atakuma]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

More time might have helped with the maps and maybe an central character gear system , but I think the changes they made would have resulted in rage even if they have three years to make the game.

People would have raged even if they changed absolutely nothing.

[Persephone]

Atakuma wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

More time might have helped with the maps and maybe an central character gear system , but I think the changes they made would have resulted in rage even if they have three years to make the game.

People would have raged even if they changed absolutely nothing.

See Awakening........ :lol: (Egads, it was bad!)

[Nerdage]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Alpha Protocol did everything that is in DA2 BETTER and it came out FIRST. It is obviously the better game(not technically, though).

Somebody prove me wrong.

Do I need facts, or can I just substitute my opinion for fact like you did?

[Corto81]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I know we're knee-deep in the "can't say anything bad about the game" phase with developer statements and marketing, but by my reckoning, selling less copies and getting lower scores from critics does not quantify this as a success.

I just really wish they'd stop chasing CoD sales numbers. Black Ops broke sales records just from pre-orders and the first day. You're not getting that audience, period, not with a game that takes 30+ hours and has no multiplayer. Follow the example of Blizzard, Valve, and Rockstar. Sure, their games may cost $50,000,000 to develop and take four years of work from over 100 people...but you know, they get tons of love from critics and tons of love from fans in the form of their wallets, and they aren't exactly hurting financially from taking oh-so-long to develop their games.

Someone stick this on a board in BW's offices.

Because it's true.
And they don't seem to be aware of it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Alpha Protocol did everything that is in DA2 BETTER and it came out FIRST. It is obviously the better game(not technically, though).

I am being perfectly honest here when I am saying that I actually enjoyed Alpha Protocol more, despite it being a broken game. I'd give AP a 7, compared to DA2's 6.5.

Though my opinion naturally has a lot of weight, I wouldn't call that proof though

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

That's so NOT what he is saying.

But keep twisting his words if it makes you feel better.<_<

Sorry, but that's exactly what they're doing.  "Some people just can't handle our brilliance" is no way to acknowledge an angry fanbase.

[hoorayforicecream]

RageGT wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Patch 1.03 is one of the most extensive Bioware has ever done. Reading the patch notes makes that very clear.

I'm quite sure it can be done, it'll just take time and some serious effort.

All that in a 23MB file? I don't know... I really don't know....

The majority of the disk space on any game is taken up by art and sound assets. Models, animations, textures, sounds, voices, music, maps, etc. all take up far more space (especially in higher resolution) than any amount of code, which is typically just text that gets compiled and compressed down to binaries.

Any large patches you see are typically changing or adding art or sound, since you can't just change part of a texture, animation or sound file. You have to replace the entire thing.

[Wulfram]

RageGT wrote...

And these forums may very well be used as an accurate sampling. I don't think they hear more than 5% of a country population and election pools are quite accurate.

Those are random samples, rather than self selecting.  The forum population is made up chiefly of the more committed/crazy parts of the fanbase.

[MorrigansLove]

nerdage wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Alpha Protocol did everything that is in DA2 BETTER and it came out FIRST. It is obviously the better game(not technically, though).

Somebody prove me wrong.

Do I need facts, or can I just substitute my opinion for fact like you did?

Whatever floats your boat.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

That's so NOT what he is saying.

But keep twisting his words if it makes you feel better.<_<

Sorry, but that's exactly what they're doing.  "Some people just can't handle our brilliance" is no way to acknowledge an angry fanbase.

It is exactly what they're saying. which is sad. I guess when a huge publisher buys you out and backs dumptrucks of cash to your door, you don't need to care about your older fanbase at that point.

[Nerevar-as]

OdanUrr wrote...

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hate you!"

Kidding, I just had to use that Fable III quote. Back on topic, it would seem both EA/Bioware seem to believe it is the innovations that some fans have a problem with. While this is likely true for some, it isn't the innovations that bother me as much as the lack of an overarching storyline and poor environment design. I believe these two do not fall under the heading of "innovations."

I still don´t know what the innovations were. Framed narrative was pointless, its potential completely wasted. I´m almost hoping for an Unusual Suspects twist as at least that would mean all the nonsense in the story didn´t actually happen. Dialogue wheel was a bad conversion from the ME system. Rivalry/Friendship can´t make up for the inferior companion interaction - I never felt half those people were friends or comrades in arms, didn´t feel so little attachment for a companion since NWN. Fixed companion armor just meant 1/3 things you found went to the junk slot.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

That's so NOT what he is saying.

But keep twisting his words if it makes you feel better.<_<

Sorry, but that's exactly what they're doing.  "Some people just can't handle our brilliance" is no way to acknowledge an angry fanbase.

That's not what they are saying at all. What do you want them to do, given that you obviously go for extremes? Cry MEA CULPA while bashing DAII in PRESS RELEASES?

[DragonRageGT]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

-Semper- wrote...

it's true that the ranting voices in the interweb are a tiny percentage of the whole base, but these are the opinions they recognize and the majority of them feel cheated. how can bioware ever be in a state to claim how the silent user at home feels about their game? how do they know that 90% of the buyers love their game?

Their games gather statistics.  They can compare the number of people who bought DAO to the number of people who finished DAO.  If the percentage of people who bought DA2 and finished DA2 is higher than the DAO completion percentage, then they know they're doing something right with DA2.

I'd say most gamers know computers well enough to 1) Turn Off the data collection 2) Play with all DLC's offline with some editing to .xml to stop "request authoriZation" which is our right to do, I'm pretty sure of it. (It was even taught how to do it in the PC self help forum without any recrimination)

Even if your line of thinking is correct,  If only 50% of the 4million ppl who bought Origins finished it (and I doubt it to be only 50%) and 80% of the 2million who bought DA2 finished it (and again, I doubt it is that high %)... Origins still has an absolute number of completion higher.

[hoorayforicecream]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

That's so NOT what he is saying.

But keep twisting his words if it makes you feel better.<_<

Sorry, but that's exactly what they're doing.  "Some people just can't handle our brilliance" is no way to acknowledge an angry fanbase.

I never saw it as them talking about their own "brilliance". There were quite a few features new to DA2 that polarized the player base that weren't primary complaints, such as:

- Dialogue wheel
- Voiced protagonist, including personality type
- Companions unable to wear other armors
- No longer able to talk to companions whenever
- Friendship/Rivalry system
- Crafting system overhaul
- All primary love interests are bisexual (poor Sebastian)

It's easy to put on blinders and try to focus only on the stuff you personally didn't like... but that's not what they're talking about. They are talking about the game as a whole.

[Nerevar-as]

RageGT wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

-Semper- wrote...

it's true that the ranting voices in the interweb are a tiny percentage of the whole base, but these are the opinions they recognize and the majority of them feel cheated. how can bioware ever be in a state to claim how the silent user at home feels about their game? how do they know that 90% of the buyers love their game?

Their games gather statistics.  They can compare the number of people who bought DAO to the number of people who finished DAO.  If the percentage of people who bought DA2 and finished DA2 is higher than the DAO completion percentage, then they know they're doing something right with DA2.

I'd say most gamers know computers well enough to 1) Turn Off the data collection 2) Play with all DLC's offline with some editing to .xml to stop "request authoriZation" which is our right to do, I'm pretty sure of it. (It was even taught how to do it in the PC self help forum without any recrimination)

Even if your line of thinking is correct,  If only 50% of the 4million ppl who bought Origins finished it (and I doubt it to be only 50%) and 80% of the 2million who bought DA2 finished it (and again, I doubt it is that high %)... Origins still has an absolute number of completion higher.

I read that from the Achievement data DA2 completion rate was around 50%. Can´t remember source however.

[Nozybidaj]

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

I do find the "its not me, its you" approach they are taking to the feedback fairly innovate though.  Should be interesting to see how that works out for them.

[Persephone]

Serious question:

So since Bioware is expected to "own up" to everything a part of the fanbase dislikes about the game and must not show a bit of fondness for their creation....

Where does that leave the fans who liked it? Might they RAGE about being unimportant (Except for sidenotes ala "Some loved it....") and ignored?

Bioware has to be very careful on both sides, it's a hellish balance to keep.

[Tsuga C]

Brockololly wrote...

Seagloom wrote..
Money talks, Brock. Notice that Ray Muzyka says DA2 was very successful commercially. Unless disappointed DA2 fans avoid buying DA3 in droves, there is little reason for them to sweat what may appear as a minority. Based on his following comment about critical success, it appears he feels a majority of fans were pleased too. Review scores are apparently not a part of it. The rest you cannot realistically expect him to admit even if he agrees they are faults. No BioWare high-up is going to own up to anything like that until the DA3 marketing machine rolls in.

True enough I suppose.

Obviously, we'll likely never get a complete picture of DA2's commercial success and what EA would define that success as, but from the incomplete data available, it would seem DA2 sold well to start out and then tanked pretty hard and fast, compared to Origins. But then I'd imagine a good chunk of DA2's early success was in the preorders from people who enjoyed DAO. 

Will that core audience rush to preorder a possible DA3? I really question that. I'm just thinking of what EA CEO John Riccitiello said the other day with respect to Battlefield 3 vs. Modern Warfare 3:

"A lot of people bought Modern Warfare more for the coffee table and didn’t play it for 2 months. There’s sort of that mass audience...  they’re going to win there. The question is, 'So, if the gamer buys our  game and the mass audience buys their game, where do the two meet?' And  all I want to do, if you will, is to have them rot from the core," he  explained.

I think thats the problem with DA- its still RPG enough to not appeal to people who don't like RPG's and yet its streamlining and dumbing down enough traditional RPG features which Origins had to alienate the "core." It seems BioWare is content with letting the "core" audience rot away, so long as they can get their "new fans." Why not take aim with Dragon Age at "hardcore" RPG fans, like how BF3 is aiming at "hardcore" FPS fans? 

It seems like BioWare wants their games to tap into that mass audience a la Call of Duty, but there is no way in hell that will ever happen, so long as they maintain any semblance of a traditional RPG. But the more they try to cater to that crowd that doesn't care, the more they're alienating and killing the interest of their core audience, IMO.

New signature for us Old Schoolers:  Proud to be Part of the Rotting Core! 

[DragonRageGT]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The majority of the disk space on any game is taken up by art and sound assets. Models, animations, textures, sounds, voices, music, maps, etc. all take up far more space (especially in higher resolution) than any amount of code, which is typically just text that gets compiled and compressed down to binaries.

Any large patches you see are typically changing or adding art or sound, since you can't just change part of a texture, animation or sound file. You have to replace the entire thing.

Thanks for clarifying that to me. I still love bigh patches though. =) (and they tend to get bigger because they should include all previous fixes in the latest patch, right?)

[Merilsell]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Merilsell wrote...

"But also there were a lot of fans of the original Dragon Age: Origins who weren't as happy with it. Maybe they were looking for more of the same, and it was different and innovative in ways they weren't expecting.

Because obviously that was the problem with DA2. The fans.

Sigh. Just sigh.

That's so NOT what he is saying.

But keep twisting his words if it makes you feel better.<_<

Sorry, but that's exactly what they're doing.  "Some people just can't handle our brilliance" is no way to acknowledge an angry fanbase.

That's not what they are saying at all. What do you want them to do, given that you obviously go for extremes? Cry MEA CULPA while bashing DAII in PRESS RELEASES?

Leave those sentences simply out while giving an interview, perhaps? Dunno, might have improved the whole thing immensely, if they would stop raving about how people can't handle the (brilliant) changes they have made.

Just saying.

[Bejos_]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Because clearly, the re-used maps are precisely what he was referring to.

Thats the issue with these interviews- they never say what they thought was innovative. I suppose Frank Gibeau mentioned the combat and narrative, but really? Again, in concept maybe it looked innovative but as executed it wasn't much to write home about, IMO.

Most of the "innovative" features of DA2 have been done before in other games and done better in other games.

There is no innovation.
They must really think their fan base is very stupid. If I were still a Bioware customer, I'd be very insulted.
Does anyone feel insulted yet?

Merilsell wrote...

Persephone wrote...

What do you want them to do, given that you obviously go for extremes? Cry MEA CULPA while bashing DAII in
PRESS RELEASES?

Leave those sentences simply out while giving an interview, perhaps? Dunno, might have improved the whole
thing immensely, if they would stop raving about how people can't handle the (brilliant) changes they have made.

Just saying.

If they can't say anything definitive and constructive about where they intend to take DA3-- and vague sentences like "We're going to make improvements" does not qualify as definite or constructive-- they should just stop talking about the product. They have nothing new to add.
Their comments address absolutely nothing about any of the game's problems. It's all PR bull****.

Modifié par Bejos_, 17 juin 2011 - 06:43 .