1248 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

aftohsix wrote...

So just so I understand. Many of you are flat out opposed to "innovation" however you choose to define it. What you want, essentially, is a game nearly identical to Baldur's Gate 2 or Dragon Age Origins. And you want that game ad naseum for the rest of time. Same mechanics, same plot structure, same party interaction and character types etc... and anyone who likes something somewhat different than that must be 12 or just "like really dumb man."

Ray?  Is that you?

[DragonRageGT]

I think one important point here is that most, if not all these forumites, are BioWare fans, whether we like DA2 or not, whether we like it more or less than DA:O or not.

Now, if only BW could go back making awesome games without EA stockholders breathing on their neck... I doubt many people here are old timers fans of EA or arrived at these forums because of the love for EA Games. If EA can make Bioware a 100% independent studio and just grab their part of the profit without determining what BW must do to give them profit, as long as they do make it. But the guy is now EA Vice President, isn't he? How independent can BW be?

[Addai]

aftohsix wrote...
What I love is the staunch refusal to admit that maybe you people are in fact outliers.

You've got a whole article with one of the Drs. flat out saying that they're going to take the criticisms of the core fans into consideration and you're still complaining.  I'm really not sure what else Bioware can do to try and "win" "fans" such as yourself back short of releasing Dragon Age Origins 2.

Furthermore I'm not so sure they should be trying very hard to "win" back such a toxic and entitled minority.

Lackluster sales numbers don't lie.  If we're outliers, we've got lots of friends.

I give them credit for aaalmoooost admitting they screwed up.  They get very close.  But you know how they say admitting that there is a problem is the first step to dealing with it?  The second step shouldn't be "and the problem is.... *points away from self* those guys over there."

[aftohsix]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Ray?  Is that you?

Wouldn't that be cool?  Sadly no, just someone who doesn't think DA2 is quite as bad as some would lead you to believe.

Don't get me wrong either.  Baldur's Gate 2 is a great game.  But if it were the only type of game available for me to play I'd get really sick of it.

[Tirfan]

The restaurant analogy doesn't exactly work - there are far more restaurants than RPG-games (or perhaps I just don't know about them), I've said elsewhere, I paid for the game, I'm a customer, I was not satisfied - thus I complain, the reason, I do still attend these forums, that I did not mention then, was that there is still some actual, good discussion here, and I feel that I've had some myself - and I've gained something from these discussions.

Edit: and to add something to the discussion of winning back fans like me - I don't necessarily need them doing another BG or even origins - I could live with game mechanics I don't like if I am given good storyline and a character I can actually play and get into, that is what is the most important thing for me. I would not pay full price for a game that has game mechanics I don't like, but, I could buy a game for good enough storyline and the RP-aspect after the price has dropped.

But game mechanic I like - well, that would be great, it would add to replayabilty of the game.

Modifié par Tirfan, 17 juin 2011 - 07:31 .

[UnspokenSoul22]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I liked Alpha Protocol, despite being a broken game, because it had tolerable writing and an interesting story.
Other than Act 2, which itself had flaws, and a few bits and pieces, DA2's writing is just not tolerable to me. It wouldn't have mattered that much if all the technicalities were great, if the plot made little sense and everyoen around you, including Hawke, is either an imbecile or a lunatic.

That said, I personally cooled off mostly, after I found my alternative fantasy based rpg. So DA doens't matter to me in the same way it did anymore.

I thought the story wasn't too shabby; oh, and Alpha Protocol was bad on all levels, including its story. I...I want to cry when I think about my wasted fifty dollars.

I, too, really loved the personalities of some of the characters, the charming conversations they'd have while you walked around, and the private dialogs/romances you could have with them. Having Fenris,or any party member for that matter, help out during conversations with the Qunari was excellent as well. Their input definetely swayed my decisions.

Overall, I'm not sure why the masses are pissed off at DA2. Yes, the maps are recycled, the graphics are a little rusty, but many other problems werre improved from DA:O and DA:A. I probably will buy DA3, regardless of what biased websites like IGN say about it.

Most RPGs can't shake a stick to this. Specfically Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and Final Fantasy XIII. I might get some crap for saying that, but it's what I believe to be true. ((And, uh huh, I know ES: Oblivion is super old and FF13's graphics are amazing.))

Modifié par UnspokenSoul22, 17 juin 2011 - 07:30 .

[aftohsix]

Addai67 wrote...


Lackluster sales numbers don't lie.  If we're outliers, we've got lots of friends.

Ray Muzyka

"Commercially, it's been very successful"

You're 100% sure about the source of your sales numbers or is this more VGCHARTZ YO YO MA bullplop?  If one of the Drs. thinks it did well I'm more likely to believe him than a website that uses a "Z" instead of an "S"

[DragonRageGT]

Nozybidaj wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

So just so I understand. Many of you are flat out opposed to "innovation" however you choose to define it. What you want, essentially, is a game nearly identical to Baldur's Gate 2 or Dragon Age Origins. And you want that game ad naseum for the rest of time. Same mechanics, same plot structure, same party interaction and character types etc... and anyone who likes something somewhat different than that must be 12 or just "like really dumb man."

Ray?  Is that you?

LOL, Nozy!

No, aftohsix. At least what I want is a game with the same level of devotion to its many details as Origins had. The Witcher 1&2 plays very differently from Origins and I really love them. And I still find myself playing Origins today while I cannot touch my DA2. Let's see if a good DLC can change that.

[Stanley Woo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

[Tsuga C]

Persephone wrote...

Spot on.

Esp. given that the "restaurant" is hiring new chefs to improve their next gala dinner. Here's to hoping for a great dish!

"One order of DA3 Salmonella Souffle', coming right up!", sez Ray Muzyka.  *ahem* 

Modifié par Tsuga C, 17 juin 2011 - 07:43 .

[Bejos_]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I wouldn't go to a restaurant like that a second time. But that's not how Bioware treated me. I got a game I thought was fun and interesting, with some stuff that wasn't so good, but I'm willing to forgive it.

Maybe they forgot the worcestershire sauce. Maybe the meat was a little overdone. Maybe you were really really REALLY looking forward to that worcestershire sauce and forgetting the worcestershire is some sort of INEXCUSABLE INSULT THAT WILL HAUNT YOU FOREVER. I don't know. I didn't really care that much about the worcestershire sauce, I still got full, and I was reasonably satisfied with the game. I'm sorry you weren't.

What I don't get is why you keep coming to the restaurant you clearly dislike and telling the customers who frequent it that it sucks. One would think that there would be better ways to spend time, like trying new restaurants.

I'm a student. I go onto forums during my study breaks. It's something to do. (It's also a procrastination tool.)

Okay, so you thought it was a subpar product that just had some of the condiments missing. Great.

But what Bioware is doing right now, is the equivalent of a restauranteur being interviewed, and stating in his interview that some of his regular customers "just aren't forward-looking enough to understand or appreciate the cooking style". He further goes on to say:
"I'm quite disappointed in them really. How entitled is that of them? How could they come into my restaurant and give me $60 dollars with the expectation of a a three-course meal, and then get angry at me when I only give them one? How dare they? Why are they so entitled?"

A restaurant would immediately go out of its way to correct its mishaps-- free of charge. Is any of that happening here?

[Aaleel]

Their words do come across as saying we made a good game with great innovations, and if you didn't like it, it's more a personal problem, and not because any of the changes were bad.

"You don't like it because it's not Origins, not because of anything we did," is how I take it. Heaven forbid people could actually dislike it as a stand alone game based on its own merits.

Modifié par Aaleel, 17 juin 2011 - 07:32 .

[ayelagin]

aftohsix wrote...
I'm really not sure what else Bioware can do to try and "win" "fans" such as yourself back short of releasing Dragon Age Origins 2.

Why not? At least that's what many DAO fans were expecting - a true sequel in story, ambience, art style and overall spirit of the game, not a total spin-off like what pretends to be named DA2. If they make real DAO2, my wallet is ready. If they continue downhill voyage with DA2 setting, I'm out. The Thedas universe is already almost dead for me as a result of DA2, so if it dies finally with DA3, so be it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...
I thought the story wasn't too shabby; oh, and Alpha Protocol was bad on all levels, including its story. I...I want to cry when I think about my wasted fifty dollars.

That's what I want to do when I think of my 60$ I blindly wasted on DA2.
I thought AP had a better written story, though of course that's in large part dependent on tastes.

Overall, I'm not sure why the masses are pissed off at DA2. Yes, the maps are recycled, the graphics are a little rusty, but many other problems werre improved from DA:O and DA:A.

For me, the thing that pisses me off the most is the quality of the story, or lack thereof. Act 3 specifically was a debacle imo. I would say it's on par with saturday morning cartoons, but I am currently watching X-Men 1992 and the way it handled the mutant / human issue, I thought, was much better than the ridiculousness we got in DA2 when it comes to Templars and mages.

Then there is the wave combat, the inability to have Hawke do anythign that involves brain functions, reused envrionments, a dull lifeless city...etc etc.

Reasons are there to dislike it, as well as to like it. So I am not sure what's there to be sure about.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[Bejos_]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

No, people are angry that the company is 1) treating them like crap, 2) lying to them, 3) avoiding their questions, 4) expecting them to cough up even more money so that Bioware can fix its mistakes, and ... I could go on, but come on, Stanley.

You can't honestly say you believe what you just wrote. If you do, and if that attitude represents the rest of Bioware's attitude-- well, "quel horreur" and expect a very bumpy (and probably very short) ride.

[Addai]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I wouldn't go to a restaurant like that a second time. But that's not how Bioware treated me. I got a game I thought was fun and interesting, with some stuff that wasn't so good, but I'm willing to forgive it.

Maybe they forgot the worcestershire sauce. Maybe the meat was a little overdone. Maybe you were really really REALLY looking forward to that worcestershire sauce and forgetting the worcestershire is some sort of INEXCUSABLE INSULT THAT WILL HAUNT YOU FOREVER. I don't know. I didn't really care that much about the worcestershire sauce, I still got full, and I was reasonably satisfied with the game. I'm sorry you weren't.

What I don't get is why you keep coming to the restaurant you clearly dislike and telling the customers who frequent it that it sucks. One would think that there would be better ways to spend time, like trying new restaurants.

That's not how I characterize DA2.  It's like going to your favorite restaurant that was taken over by new management.  The name is the same, but not only is the decor all different, more importantly the portions are much smaller and the sauce is watery, and egad their parking lot is smaller too (I live in Silicon Valley, okay).  If the old regulars are still hanging around, that's a chance to at least improve.  Once they've found a new place to eat, it's going to be harder to get them back in, and it's going to affect new business, too.  They're out on Yelp saying "this place used to be good."

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juin 2011 - 07:38 .

[Maria13]

Plus the overall lack of attention to detail that was so evident in DA:O the history of weapons armours books in libraries that made that game a pleasure to play.

[Nerevar-as]

ayelagin wrote...

aftohsix wrote...
I'm really not sure what else Bioware can do to try and "win" "fans" such as yourself back short of releasing Dragon Age Origins 2.

Why not? At least that's what many DAO fans were expecting - a true sequel in story, ambience, art style and overall spirit of the game, not a total spin-off like what pretends to be named DA2. If they make real DAO2, my wallet is ready. If they continue downhill voyage with DA2 setting, I'm out. The Thedas universe is already almost dead for me as a result of DA2, so if it dies finally with DA3, so be it.

I would settle for an actual significant plot, fun gameplay and recognising the races and characters in the setting. I.e. I can´t believe I won´t be likely to see my Warden again because of an unnecesary (IMHO) change to the character creator.

[Bejos_]

Tirfan wrote...

The restaurant analogy doesn't exactly work - there are far more restaurants than RPG-games (or perhaps I just don't know about them), I've said elsewhere, I paid for the game, I'm a customer, I was not satisfied - thus I complain, the reason, I do still attend these forums, that I did not mention then, was that there is still some actual, good discussion here, and I feel that I've had some myself - and I've gained something from these discussions.

And is your restaurant going out of its way to fix the mistakes free of charge? Nope. They just rush it and move onto the next product. Cf Stanley Woo's reply above.

[UnspokenSoul22]

For me, at least, I'd like to see them get rid of the codex. Let's be truthful, now.

Does anyone actually read every, single entry or even two, three? I might have glanced at the occasional one, but I'd much rather go on quests and learn about these things myself, rather than just reading about them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria13 wrote...

Plus the overall lack of attention to detail that was so evident in DA:O the history of weapons armours books in libraries that made that game a pleasure to play.

Silverman said they were useless...

But yea, agreed. They added life to the lore. 

And what I find weird is that ME2 also had an attention to detail, both visual and otherwise. Sometimes to absurd levels (who gives a damn about the garbage disposal in Zaeed's room?). So I am not sure why the DA team thought we were so moronic that we don't need "useless" details.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For me, the thing that pisses me off the most is the quality of the story, or lack thereof. Act 3 specifically was a debacle imo. I would say it's on par with saturday morning cartoons, *Snips*

Then there is the wave combat, the inability to have Hawke do anythign that involves brain functions, reused envrionments, a dull lifeless city...etc etc.

Reasons are there to dislike it, as well as to like it. So I am not sure what's there to be sure about.

You sure had me fooled.

And that's in addition to insulting my intelligence. But hey, whatever floats your gondola.

[Nerevar-as]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I assume that the "Innovation" referred to things like the shift from a silent protagonist to a voiced protagonist or the structure of the narrative - and yes, even the wheel, plus tonal icons. Whether or not you agree with the supposed innovations, it seems that they have taken notice of the criticisms, or does the part where Muzyka says they're going to try to address some of the issues the old fans have had with DA2 and satisfy old and new fans not count? Not that I really give a flying fig about "old" fans who still have their knickers in a twist about the game and are yet again upset about something someone at BioWare said.

Some people just want to argue because they really wanted to like Dragon Age II and didn't, and they're blaming everyone and everything so they won't have to admit that maybe, just maybe, Dragon Age II might not be for them. This i why, despite all the accusations and rants and name-calling and quote-mining and misrepresentation of developer responses, they keep coming back--simply put, they want to like the next game we release.

And that's okay, as long as respect and courtesy are still maintained on this forum.

And why isn´t it for us? It´s the sequel to a game most of us enjoyed, and was quite sucessful on its own merits. Yet DA2 fails to reproduce most of Origins good things and introduces a lot of things not really demanded /cared about. At times I think BW has grown afraid of the kind of gamesyou make best.

[Aaleel]

UnspokenSoul22 wrote...

For me, at least, I'd like to see them get rid of the codex. Let's be truthful, now.

Does anyone actually read every, single entry or even two, three? I might have glanced at the occasional one, but I'd much rather go on quests and learn about these things myself, rather than just reading about them.

Yes.  Horrible idea.