192 réponses à ce sujet

[ken52682]

DLC is like going to your favorite restaurant and being charged 2 bucks for silverware because the restaurant now considers it a "premium" service. They're not gonna force you to purchase the service. It's optional. You can definitely still eat your food without it, you'll just have to use your hands. Annnddd .... you're not allowed to bring your own silverware (console players can't get a stash for their camp unless they buy Warden's Keep).

You see, DLC before XBL launched was all free. It wasn't even called DLC. They were just updates. Publisher's didn't expect gamers to pay 10 bucks for 3 new mulitplayer maps. No, they gave those maps away for free to please their customers who bought the product and hopefully bring in more customers.

When DLC first came out on XBL I didn't think anybody be stupid enough to go for it. The quality and amount of content didn't justify the price. But low and behold, a bunch of mindless idiots who didn't know how to value things flocked towards the DLC. The same type of idiots who are willing to shelve out 3 bucks for a bottle of water at the mall. And just like how a water bottle is not worth 3 bucks, neither is Warden's Keep worth 7, nor map packs for COD worth 10.

I'm angry not only at the overpricing of this content, but also at all the idiots who eat this s**t up. The more you buy into it, the more it's gonna become the standard. If people started to give in paying 2 bucks for silverware at restaurants, what do you think would happen? Not only will the restaurant contintue doing it, but every restaurant would start charging 2 bucks. It would slowly become the norm.

[slikster]

While that's loaded with truth, Gabochido, I am making the prediction right now that it will fly straight over their heads. Just know that there are a lot of us out here supporting your efforts and that appreciate them, even if we are not making as much noise.

[Krathax]

SkippyMcGee88 wrote...

It's just how the world goes... It's just how people are...

With all that being said... The new DLC... You can keep it EA/Bioware, you're not my Cleveland Browns.

Capitalism and Democracy. They can charge for it, you can choose not to buy it. In this system, if people want it, it will succeed, if people don't want it, it will fail.

Modifié par Krathax, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[aries1001]

I certainly believe that Bioware (and EA) should get paid for their work. However, people in a downfalling economy will find smart ways to spend their money. And before people can buy DLC for 5$, they'll need to get food, shelter, clothes.



And, as stated before, people may not see the value of a 1 hour DLC that you pay 7$ for, where you can't even go back into Warden's Keep - after you've finished the quest. People might start saving up their money to buy another game...

[JabberJaww]

Will the DLC crybabies please save their hard earned $5 and spend it on something more useful and long lasting like lunch at McDonalds or something

[DJoker35]

ken52682 wrote...

DLC is like going to your favorite restaurant and being charged 2 bucks for silverware because the restaurant now considers it a "premium" service.

Poor comparison for one reason. Your game is complete. Done. Finished product. The end. Except for patches, the entire game is in its completed, full, finished, and enjoyable form right there on your computer, with everything you need to play it in full and complete it. Nothing else has to be added for you to finish the entire content of the game and get the full gaming experience. And if you so choose, you can leave it at that knowing you have played the full game and gotten the full amount for the money you bought it for.

DLC is not a premium service. It's not a service at all.You don't have to have DLC to play the completed, finished product of the game. You already purchased the full version. The DLC is simply optional components that you may choose to add to the completed product  to give it extra, optional content if you want. And that's it. The game itself is already filled with 100% of it's content and everything you need to access (and hopefully enjoy) that content.

A MUCH better comparison would be a restaraunt that has given you a full meal (utensils included), and now wants to sell you some dessert. Weather you think you need the dessert is comletely up to you. But either way, when you leave the restaraunt, you've had your full meal.

Modifié par DJoker35, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:39 .

[0mar]

It's not about money, it's about respect. Charging me 5 dollars for a one-shot dungeon with loot is basically slapping me in the face. This sort of thing used to be a thank-you gift from the developers and it helped build loyalty to your customers. Do you think Bioware would be where it is now if they charged nickels and dimes for patches/content? I'm not adverse to buying products, I've bought BG2 and ToB about 2 times now, I bought KoTOR the day it came out, etc etc. What I refuse to do is be disrespected like this.



Bioware released dozens of patches for NWN with much more content at no charge. Now, for a one-shot dungeon with some loot, we have to pay money? This is a slap in the face to all the fans of Bioware, especially those of us who stuck with you through thick and thin (eg Jade Empire, ****ty PC support for Mass Effect).

[DJoker35]

0mar wrote...

It's not about money, it's about respect. Charging me 5 dollars for a one-shot dungeon with loot is basically slapping me in the face. This sort of thing used to be a thank-you gift from the developers and it helped build loyalty to your customers. Do you think Bioware would be where it is now if they charged nickels and dimes for patches/content? I'm not adverse to buying products, I've bought BG2 and ToB about 2 times now, I bought KoTOR the day it came out, etc etc. What I refuse to do is be disrespected like this.

Bioware released dozens of patches for NWN with much more content at no charge. Now, for a one-shot dungeon with some loot, we have to pay money? This is a slap in the face to all the fans of Bioware, especially those of us who stuck with you through thick and thin (eg Jade Empire, ****ty PC support for Mass Effect).

You honestly believe that the effort, time, and money that a company puts into the DLC should be tossed aside so that you can have optional content for free?

So if you go for a meal at a restaruant, and the food is good, and your pleased with your dinner, you demand that the restaraunt give you dessert for free? And if not, then they're "disrespecting" you for being a customer who bought a meal?

Modifié par DJoker35, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:46 .

[SheffSteel]

ken52682 wrote...wrong, wrong, and wrong again

oops

[slikster]

Now DLC is a personal dis from Bioware... wow.  My eyeballs just rolled right out of my head.

[flamingdts]

DJoker35 wrote...

ken52682 wrote...

DLC is like going to your favorite restaurant and being charged 2 bucks for silverware because the restaurant now considers it a "premium" service.

Poor comparison for one reason. Your game is complete. Done. Finished product. The end. Except for patches, the entire game is in its completed, full, finished, and enjoyable form right there on your computer, with everything you need to play it in full and complete it. Nothing else has to be added for you to finish the entire content of the game and get the full gaming experience. And if you so choose, you can leave it at that knowing you have played the full game and gotten the full amount for the money you bought it for.

DLC is not a premium service. It's not a service at all.You don't have to have DLC to play the completed, finished product of the game. You already purchased the full version. The DLC is simply optional components that you may choose to add to the completed product  to give it extra, optional content if you want. And that's it. The game itself is already filled with 100% of it's content and everything you need to access (and hopefully enjoy) that content.

A MUCH better comparison would be a restaraunt that has given you a full meal (utensils included), and now wants to sell you some dessert. Weather you think you need the dessert is comletely up to you. But either way, when you leave the restaraunt, you've had your full meal.

Here is the problem.

The game is not entirely complete, it is bugged.

Let's look at Bethesda Softworks, a company I absolutely hate. They broke VATS of Fallout 3 with a patch (affected only PCs). Instead of releasing a patch, they took their time releasing DLCs instead. After 3 months, they decided to release a patch which only fixed HALF the VATS problem. 

As I see it, the DLC are at a higher priority than the actual game play itself. Now anyone who knows how DLC works will know DLC tends to BREAK the game in a slight form or another. DLCs tend to carry glitches and bugs with them when installed. Now comes the part that annoys me and probably a lot people here the most. If DLCs are being released faster than they bother to make a patch for the problem, you get one clustered buggy piece of garbage like Oblivion. 

A game like DA:O focuses heavily on stats ands strategies. These types of games cannot afford that many bugs and glitches, because it ruins the game. Take for example the dexterity bug that has yet to be officially fixed. This bug basically prevents a certain play style from working efficiently, forcing you to play another style instead. Now, if future DLCs bug the game in similar fashion, then we're looking at one or two viable builds in the entire game for each class, because every single other build is broken by bug.

I rather have an expansion than DLC, but at the same time I want what I paid for first before Bioware begins selling me something else. If you brought a phone with one of it's main functions missing, are you going to want it fixed first or are you going to start purchasing accessories for this phone?

Modifié par flamingdts, 21 novembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[deadrockstar]

I appreciate the Bioware response and understand the value of DLCs, both to Bioware and to myself. I can't fault the quality of WK (though it would be nice if you patched it to allow entry after completion as it doesn't look like community modding will be an answer). It fits seamlessly into the main game and has some fairly extensive voice acting with the development of two/three new characters. I'm sure the price reflects the value to Bioware, my value lies elsewhere (but is not exclusive nor ignorant of price).

My main concern is that by funding DLC I'm helping erode any support within Bioware for an expansion, or diverting resources away from it. I prefer an expansion and I would imagine some within Bioware would too. You've created a whole new world with lore et al (or IP, as it has become known), it'd be nice to experience that on a deeper level than a cluster of DLCs allow.

"without having to wait months or
years for a full sequel or expansion pack to come out"

I'm assuming the sequel is a given, but is that a hint that there might be an expansion? Do you have any clear plan on that front, or can you simply not tell us? (which is understandable)

[slikster]

If you paid any attention at all, you would know that a patch is forthcomming for the dexterity issue.

[Gabo]

flamingdts wrote...
I rather have an expansion than DLC, but at the same time I want what I paid for first before Bioware begins selling me something else. If you brought a phone with one of it's main functions missing, are you going to want it fixed first or are you going to start purchasing accessories for this phone?

As has been mentioned before by another Bioware dev, there are different independent teams that focus on DLC and on patching. DLC is mainly content and writing oriented, while patching is more programming and technical design oriented. In addition, some of the development for the new DLC was already underway (but not finished) when DA came out and that gives it an advantage in time it takes to get it out the door. We definitely acknowledge all the feedback we receive and rest assured that people are working to improve things.

...And to answer another post, no, I can't comment on the existence or not of future products.

[SamoanX]

Your logic is flawed and you still suck

[DJoker35]

flamingdts wrote...


Here is the problem.

The game is not entirely complete, it is bugged.

Let's look at Bethesda Softworks, a company I absolutely hate. They broke VATS of Fallout 3 with a patch (affected only PCs). Instead of releasing a patch, they took their time releasing DLCs instead. After 3 months, they decided to release a patch which only fixed HALF the VATS problem. 

As I see it, the DLC are at a higher priority than the actual game play itself. Now anyone who knows how DLC works will know DLC tends to BREAK the game in a slight form or another. DLCs tend to carry glitches and bugs with them when installed. Now comes the part that annoys me and probably a lot people here the most. If DLCs are being released faster than they bother to make a patch for the problem, you get one clustered buggy piece of garbage like Oblivion. 

A game like DA:O focuses heavily on stats ands strategies. These types of games cannot afford that many bugs and glitches, because it ruins the game. Take for example the dexterity bug that has yet to be officially fixed. This bug basically prevents a certain play style from working efficiently, forcing you to play another style instead. Now, if future DLCs bug the game in similar fashion, then we're looking at one or two viable builds in the entire game for each class, because every single other build is broken by bug.

I rather have an expansion than DLC, but at the same time I want what I paid for first before Bioware begins selling me something else. If you brought a phone with one of it's main functions missing, are you going to want it fixed first or are you going to start purchasing accessories for this phone?

Here's the thing. The people working on the patches are a completely different group of people than those working on the DLC. One group is actually going through the code of the game itself working on the problems and bugs and the next patch. The other is using the toolset and adding VOs to create DLC. Posters from Bioware have talked about this numerous times on these forums. The work of one doesn't interfere with, nor take rescources from, the other. Not that one is easier than the other, but I think I can say, after working with the toolset a bit, that creating DLC is at least a more straitforward, and thus "quicker", process than tearing through the code to find fixes that work across all types of computer configurations.

I fully look forward to, and expect, a patch to fix some of the issues you've mentioned. The patches will be released when they're finished, tested, and ready for distribution. But in the meantime, the team that has nothing to do with these issues continues with its work...creating DLC.

[DJoker35]

Gabochido wrote...

flamingdts wrote...
I rather have an expansion than DLC, but at the same time I want what I paid for first before Bioware begins selling me something else. If you brought a phone with one of it's main functions missing, are you going to want it fixed first or are you going to start purchasing accessories for this phone?

As has been mentioned before by another Bioware dev, there are different independent teams that focus on DLC and on patching. DLC is mainly content and writing oriented, while patching is more programming and technical design oriented. In addition, some of the development for the new DLC was already underway (but not finished) when DA came out and that gives it an advantage in time it takes to get it out the door. We definitely acknowledge all the feedback we receive and rest assured that people are working to improve things.

...And to answer another post, no, I can't comment on the existence or not of future products.

Heheh..I was typing something similar while you posted this.

[flamingdts]

slikster wrote...

If you paid any attention at all, you would know that a patch is forthcomming for the dexterity issue.

And if you have paid attention, then you should know my concern is DLCs taking priority over game fixes, not whether a fix will come out or not.

Now that there are clarifications concerning the departments, I can say i feel a little more relieved. However, what exactly is the hold up with the dexterity issue? As far as I'm concerned a hotfix is already available, if that's the case shouldn't a patch for the issue be out by now? 

Modifié par flamingdts, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:01 .

[Romeriez Galenar]

Gabochido wrote...
In addition, consumers are becoming more and more demanding (rightfully so), meaning that
only the games with the highest production values remain in demand. Dragon Age
is such a game and it not only has great production values, it also has an epic
scope and a lot of replayability. DLC adds to this. It's not just the raw hour
of gameplay you get, it also adds even more replayability to the full game. And
it's not just fetch quests and random battles either, these are modules that have
professional quality with a full engaging story including voice-overs and
cutscenes attached to them.

Ok firstly, thanks for commenting.  It's nice to know people at Bioware are still listening to the people that are ultimately their biggest fans. I disagree with you though, so now I'll get to it.

Wk is pretty much a few random battles, and a fetch quest for a few loot items and the Codex entries.

Gabochido wrote...
For those that compare the "hour per cent"
value of DLC with the original game, you should realize this: DLC takes as much
effort to create as any part of the original game, however, DLC will not sell
as much as the full game because only a fraction of the people who played the
full game will feel the need to play more (however good the game or the DLC is).
Therefore, DLC will never sell as much as a full standalone game but it is
something that a considerable number of people appreciate. We do our best to
make sure that you are getting great value for your gaming dollar.

I'm having trouble believing that after playing the WK DLC.  You really truly believe it was worth the asking price?  I bought it thinking it was a base of operation and it turned out to be a nice doorway to hang around with a bunch of half baked NPC's I could easily do without.

Gabochido wrote...

Finally, people seem to believe that DLC involves taking a
complete game and removing parts of it so they can be sold for extra cash but
that is not how it works, at least, not here. There was a plan all along to
have DLC so that fans could have extra content without having to wait months or
years for a full sequel or expansion pack to come out, but all the content for
DLC was created specifically for this purpose; all of it was written or
finished well after the game design and story was locked. DLC allows games to
have new content more frequently and adds to the revenue of the IP, which turns
into more resources to create cool new content. That's just the way it works.

So you're saying that "The Stone Prisoner" wasn't part of the original game at any time?  Because if it was, which is what I remember another Bioware dev saying, then you just lied. Oh wait, you said finished after....right.  Gotcha.

Gabochido wrote...
For those that enjoy our game and its extra modules, I
hope this explanation can make you appreciate the value of DLC and enjoy what
we have to release currently and in the future.

I appreciate the value of the game very much, you have my thanks for it, and I appreciate GOOD DLC, but what I don't appreciate is when I get LIED to (WK DLC) and it's even worse to then told it was a great value by someone that works at the company that LIED to me.  I mean, unless you care to explain to me how it's a base of operation, or why I couldn't get some of the quests to finish no matter what I did..

Hey I have an idea, how about I sell you my WK back, I mean since it's such a great value and all.

[SamoanX]

you didn't get lied to your just angry you where wrong

[Seifz]

flamingdts wrote...

slikster wrote...

If you paid any attention at all, you would know that a patch is forthcomming for the dexterity issue.

And if you have paid attention, then you should know my concern is DLCs taking priority over game fixes, not whether a fix will come out or not.

Now that there are clarifications concerning the departments, I can say i feel a little more relieved. However, what exactly is the hold up with the dexterity issue? As far as I'm concerned a hotfix is already available, if that's the case shouldn't a patch for the issue be out by now? 

Have you actually used the hotfix or even read what that page says?  It makes the game more difficult, which is something that they need to correct before they release an official patch.  It's not done.

Even ignoring that, there's another problem.  Let's say that the patch is done.  Now what?  Does BioWare release it for the PC and listen to the console users whine for a month until MS/Sony approve it for the 360/PS3, or do they hold it until it's available for all platforms?

[Seifz]

Romeriez Galenar wrote...

Gabochido wrote...

Finally, people seem to believe that DLC involves taking a
complete game and removing parts of it so they can be sold for extra cash but
that is not how it works, at least, not here. There was a plan all along to
have DLC so that fans could have extra content without having to wait months or
years for a full sequel or expansion pack to come out, but all the content for
DLC was created specifically for this purpose; all of it was written or
finished well after the game design and story was locked. DLC allows games to
have new content more frequently and adds to the revenue of the IP, which turns
into more resources to create cool new content. That's just the way it works.

So you're saying that "The Stone Prisoner" wasn't part of the original game at any time?  Because if it was, which is what I remember another Bioware dev saying, then you just lied. Oh wait, you said finished after....right.  Gotcha.

Shale and the rest of "The Stone Prisoner" were intended for the original game, but they were cut due to time and budget constaints.  Georg did a nice little writeup about this in another thread here.  Later, Rob's team got it all working (after a lot of modifications and fixes), so they released it for free with any new game purchase.  I see no lies, and nothing wrong with what they did.

[Monstruo696]

ken52682 wrote...

DLC is like going to your favorite restaurant and being charged 2 bucks for silverware because the restaurant now considers it a "premium" service.

Wrong.

DLC is like ordering a $50 burger and then noticing each french fry is $1.

Seifz wrote...


Even ignoring that, there's another problem.  Let's say that the patch is
done.  Now what?  Does BioWare release it for the PC and listen to the
console users whine for a month until MS/Sony approve it for the
360/PS3, or do they hold it until it's available for all platforms?

Obviously, they can wait.  What the hell is the point of making PC users wait if it's done?

Modifié par Monstruo696, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[AshedMan]

Monstruo696 wrote...
Obviously, they can wait.  What the hell is the point of making PC users wait if it's done?

Why did we wait 9 months for Dragon Age in the first place?  It was finished for the PC back in February.  We had to wait because EA wanted all platforms to release at the same time. 

[slikster]

Monstruo696 wrote...
DLC is like ordering a $50 burger and then noticing each french fry is $1.

I've never seen a burger I could make my own french fries with.  Your analogy = not good.