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[przemichal]

I have posted my "Reaper theory" some time ago, but it didn't attract much attention. However, because I still find it interesting and coherent, I thought that it's worth to repost it here, especially since there has been a lot of discussion about the Reapers again. This theory, I dare to say, really explains A LOT OF THINGS and makes sense; and - more importantly - it makes place for a "Luke! I am your father!" plot twist (basing on what we already know about the Reapers). So, here it goes!

przemichal wrote...
The
nanites have been mentioned quite many times as to now. They were especially important in the 'Retribution' novel, which revealed that the nanites are in fact the way the Reapers indoctrinate people; nanites simply take control over one's nervous system and make him obedient while still consciouss, so that he becomes "prisoner of his own body" (this is Grayson's metaphor, not mine). They may enhance your strenght to an extent you become a super-soldier; they communicate via quantum entanglement communicator. They may affect you directly, forcing you to do what the Reapers desire, or indirectly, making you think that you want what they do or see strange things (compare to some logs you find while tresspassing the derelict Reaper). Also ME2 reveals that they do decompose the bodies of liquefied people. Then they probably compose it back to form a Reaper. (They also do decompose Reapers' constructs like Praetorians and them fallen Collectors.)

It is a sci-fi trope that nanites with some single purpose break out of control and begin to create something that cannot be stopped (by indoctrinating people and making a Reaper out of them for the purpose of controlling or enhancing evolution). If this is the case in ME -- if the Reapers started with nanites -- it will be a serious dissapointment. Anyway, it's some theory, and I didn't see anybody post it before, so here it goes.

przemichal wrote...
It's almost obvious at this point that the Reaper can only be created with the use of nanites. So this theory may be true; [the fact] that they [nanites] are tools do not colide in any way with what I said: that they may have broken (somehow) out of control at the beginning and "made" the first Reapers. Not that they are in any way sapient themselves.

So, the main idea is that the Reapers are product of some kind of nanites outbreak and that the indoctrination preceeds the Reapers. Indoctrination and nanites may also be the way we are going to fight them back. Why? Because nobody is expecting it! (Just like nobody expected that he is his father... ) It would also explain their motives (still making them incomprehensible for all other beings) and why they are so fixed on evolution and elevating other species.
This theory can be backed up by a lot of evidence from books, comics and games (especially "Evolution").

The original topic http://social.biowar...5/index/6084534

I hope it finds some interests this time; if not, I'm not going to repost it again.
What do you think?

Modifié par przemichal, 17 juin 2011 - 07:47 .

[AshleyS3]

Have you read Prey? This reminds me of that a bit.

It's not a bad theory.

[Parah_Salin]

There was alot of stuff in the original thread against the nanities therory, namely that Saren probably would have picked up on it on Virmire. This being said it might have something to do with their creation, but not indoctrination. Regardless of the process of how they are actually form I feel like the reapers most likely started with a civilization (or part of a civilization- the ones who turned into sentient space ships may have been the vast minority) that burnt through it's resources very fast, and came up with reaper-ifying themselves as a way of survival+letting other people do the work.

[przemichal]

I didn't read "Prey", but it seems just like it from what I can see on wiki.

Parah_Salin wrote...
There was alot of stuff in the original thread against the nanities therory, namely that Saren probably would have picked up on it on Virmire.

It is stated in the "Retribution" that this is how they do indoctrinate people and that TIM already knows that, probably because he was studying the derelict Reaper (this said, I wonder if the scientists studying it were some kind of control group themselves?). Saren could find out or not, but he was indoctrinated himself, most of his scientific team too, or so it seems; that would explain a lot of things.

Modifié par przemichal, 17 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[OdanUrr]

Really, Replicators?

[Whatever42]

Personally, I believe the nanites are just tools. The original reapers were from an ancient organic race and were machine cultists. Eventually, they achieved immortality by becoming human-machine cyborgs. This brought them into conflict with the rest of their species. To fight the war, they merged themselves into larger and larger machines, with the indoctrination field creating a group borg-like consciousness. Eventually they crushed the remainder of their species and forcibly assimilated them.

[Parah_Salin]

My bad.

It's fairly obvious that the Reapers became the way they are as a method of long term survival. My guess is they view reaperization as a form on unity and improved evolution. The nanites could be a method of convincing the masses to join in becoming a reaper. They could be some kind of network that was tried to set up between individual members of a race to unify thier consciousness. They seam to control alot of things by powerful signals so I feel like somewhere along the lines someone was duping someone. That is, the bulk of whoever became reapers probably was just ask screwed as organic being being huskified in the current ME universe. It probably was just a handful of being actually making decisions or dominating the decision making process of the reaper. The fact that they have an interior I don't think it solely a tool for carting around indoctrinated agents like Saren, I think that originally their were some masterminds of the whole process living there, before they either voluntarily melded with their Reaper creation, or until their creation overpowered them.

This being said I don't think that reapers are directly made from indoctrination. Plenty of protheans were indoctrinated but no reaper came from them, and the people in the pods didn't seam indoctrinated when they were liquified and put into the HR.

[przemichal]

Parah_Salin wrote...
This being said I don't think that reapers are directly made from indoctrination. Plenty of protheans were indoctrinated but no reaper came from them, and the people in the pods didn't seam indoctrinated when they were liquified and put into the HR.

1) We don't really know why there is no prothean Reaper; we only know that they were probably trying to make one and failed. For what reason, it is to be seen. Has something to do with genetic material, imo.
2) There was really no need to indoctrinate people in the pods. There was only need to decompose them
3) Your theory doesn't really contradict mine; truth be said, it can be seen as it's variation.

Why I really like my theory is because it presents indoctrination as something far more complex than simple weapon. If it's true, it would also add a lot of sense of pointlessness into ME universe; it would make it - I think - far more darker than we thought it was.

Modifié par przemichal, 17 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[Bogsnot1]

We only have EDI's speculation that there was no Prothean Reaper. For all we know, Harby is a Prothean Reaper. Or maybe its Jerry, the Reaper 1 down and 3 to the left of Harby in the final cutscene.

[knightnblu]

Examine what w know about the Reapers and we may find the answers that we are looking for. First, we know that they are genetic experts. Creation, modification, re-write, etc. are all in their tool box. We have the Collectors as evidence of their ability to modify genetic codes. They took the Prothean code and re-wrote it for a specific purpose. That is impressive by itself, but the Reapers can go even further.

The nannites likely act as a retro-virus to install new genetic codes on existing DNA strands changing the biological functions. The greater the speed at which these changes are mandated, the greater the change, but the cost for moving so fast is the subject's competence because the changes to the neural structures are not subtle.

However, I would submit that there is also a signal component to the indoctrination process. It would likely be low frequency to heighten penetration and would be a multiplexed signal. The first purpose would be to activate the nannites, the second would be to carry instructions for the servants. Hence the "whispering" at the back of the mind reported by individuals undergoing the process of indoctrination.

The absence of such a signal would cause the nannites to go inactive. This would also work to prevent the "sticky goo" problem associated with out of control nannites and would also not require their collection when the Reapers retreated to dark space. Further, this signal can be incorporated into all Reaper technology. This would explain why Reaper artifacts are also sources of indoctrination.

An organic comes within the sphere of influence of the object, the nannites activate, and the process of indoctrination begins. It would also appear that the nannites can take the process even further in order to create husks and whatever else we may find.

I still hold that the process of indoctrination is not cumulative. This is because of the organisms tendency to maintain its functions within a very specific range of operation. For example, the body clears itself of changed cells through programmed cell death if they are found to be defective. That having been said, there is like a point of no return where the body can no longer ward off the changes and that is when the process of indoctrination cannot be reversed.

I could go on far longer, but I fear this post has already grown far too long for most readers. Interesting topic though.

[przemichal]

There is even more to it if you compare this nanite indoctrination theory to the way Thorian was controling it's slaves; the Reaper indoctrination seems like much more subtle control device of the same kind.

[Whatever42]

przemichal wrote...

There is even more to it if you compare this nanite indoctrination theory to the way Thorian was controling it's slaves; the Reaper indoctrination seems like much more subtle control device of the same kind.

Yup. While this isn't a new theory or my theory, I have to believe that the Thorian is somehow a model for the Reapers.

And knightblu, nice post. I very much agree with your summation and conclusions. I would add that I think this nanites are what also disassembled the colonists (the doc said that they were melted down by tiny robots) and then reassembled them as the organic component of the Reaper. 

Since I believe indoctrination is part of the Reaper control mechanism (each Reaper as we know is a nation) then the nanites would also play an integral role in the Reaper group consciousness. Maybe counter these nanites is the means to defeat the Reapers entirely.

[Parah_Salin]

przemichal- wasn't really meaning to directly contradict, just saying I don't think it was a "whoops" moment.

knightnblu- good explanation of the signals/nanites. What's your take on the permanent nature? Personally my guess is that the nanites have a wide range of functions, controllable via signals. This would allow them to implement direct control such as Saren's corpse/Harbringer's possessed drones by making them convert way more things into energy (notice how they both kind of wither away- like they are just actively consuming tissue at a high rate for a short term energy boost), mind control like we've expected, and fundamental re-writes of genes like the deal was with the collectors.

Genetic diversity seams to be requirement of a harvested race. Since they are master gene modifyers a reaper could possibly have a (or multiple) DNA structures designed around different optimal genes from different members of a species for handling a variety of different functions. Everything from different forms of intelligence, to raw material with a good psychical function. Weaknesses in the genes that might come from over-enhancement in one area might be supressed by using the nanites to essentially have the reaper turn that part of itself off.

Since this is a weird concept let me give an example. A severely autistic human can often be what is known as an idiot-savant. This means that they might be able to do high level math instantly without a calculator, memorize the location of every item in a room upon entering it, perfectly recite newspaper headlines going back 30 years, etc... but might not even be able to speak or empathize with other people. Now, if you had that consciousness, that intelligence, at your disposal and could just let it do it's thing whenever you needed to do complex math or memorize something, and then turn it off and go back to your normal self when dealing with people, it would be very useful. Especially if your talking about running a 2 km long ship with multiple systems and some sort of production facilities.

[Whatever42]

Parah_Salin, I don't believe Reapers actually genetically modify their candidate races. I believe they regard natural evolution as important and want to incorporate this natural evolution intact into their new Reapers.

The reasons for this conclusion:

1) if they were simply growing races according to some plan then it would likely be far more controlled; like us raising cattle.
2) TIM wanted to make sure Shepard was genetically intact (no cloned tissue) because he knew the Collectors would only want him and pursue him if he were intact.

I have the feeling that whatever functions that organics fulfill within a Reaper that the Reapers value that diversity and would strive not to alter it anyway by tweaking it. Personally, I believe that this is the way that Reapers pursue evolution.

[Parah_Salin]

I'm saying they use the best a species has to offer in each specific area, even if individual members of that species that normally are that good at that specific area are severely handicapped in others. I'm saying the role is that they use the strongest attributes from different members of a race. Which would go with taking shep alive.

So once again we're sort-of agreeing.

[przemichal]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
1) if they were simply growing races according to some plan then it would likely be far more controlled; like us raising cattle. [...]

I have the feeling that whatever functions that organics fulfill within a Reaper that the Reapers value that diversity and would strive not to alter it anyway by tweaking it. Personally, I believe that this is the way that Reapers pursue evolution.

It may be backed by some evidence from the "Ascension" novel; it is said that the Collectors were looking for genetetic aberrations. It seems that (for some reason) the Reapers indeed value inter-species diversity.

[knightnblu]

"What's your take on the permanent nature?"

Truthfully, I see the nannites as an infective process. Just like diseases here in the real world, once the body's defenses have been overcome the pathogen is dominant. In my mind the indoctrination process works much the same way. Once enough tissue has been converted to the Reaper's purpose, the body can no longer fight it.

With a normal pathogen, we can use anti-biotics, surgery, and isolation to combat the process. However there are pathogens that once established, cannot be treated without killing the patient. Indoctrination is similar to this process.

Once the body's neural structures are sufficiently altered, they cannot be returned to their original state without killing the subject. This is because the central nervous system has been fundamentally changed. This is necessary for the Reapers because those left behind when the Reapers retreat cannot be allowed to leave a record of what happened else the next batch of sentients will be warned of their danger. The Protheans discovered the process of indoctrination and managed to detect the altered subjects, but no treatments were revealed by Vigil.

On the plus side, if one were to develop a medical nannite system to search out and destroy the indoctrination nannites, you could effectively stop the process. All that you would have to do is produce the medical nannites and inject them into the organics you wish to protect. In fact, there is good reason to believe that future research has already been done in this area with regards to cancer. So instead of programming the nannites to attack the cancer, you program them to attack the indoctrination nannites instead. The destroyed nannites would then collect in the bodies waste systems and be eliminated by the body.

If the technology exists in the ME universe and if the manufacturing capability exists, it would be wise to begin inoculating citizens as soon as possible and that may be the solution to the indoctrination problem. If the tech doesn't exist, might be worth getting the Quarians and Salarians on it ;-)

[przemichal]

According to "Retribution" I think that's correct idea of how do nanites work. When Grayson is infected with nanites by TIM, it takes some time before they take control over his nervous system. Because the takeover would normally take a lot of time (well, at least more than TIM thinks he has), TIM decides to feed Grayson with Red Sand, 'cause it weakens immunity system. So this would actually make sense.

Modifié par przemichal, 18 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[crimzontearz]

wait I am not following this

Rana Thanoptis specifically says that indoctrination is a "signal" not a bunch of nanites

if it was nanites she would have known so given she gave autopsies to several dead indoctrinated specimen.....

Modifié par crimzontearz, 18 juin 2011 - 12:50 .

[przemichal]

crimzontearz wrote...

wait I am not following this

Rana Thanoptis specifically says that indoctrination is a "signal" not a bunch of nanites

if it was nanites she would have known so given she gave autopsies to several dead indoctrinated specimen.....

knightnblu already explained how he thinks it's still coherent, and it's convincing. Moreover, the nanites communicate via QEC; if nothing else, it can be kind of explanation for the "signal".
btw., I don't remember her mentioning anything about autopsies. BUT WHO CARES - SHE'S DEAD! (Joke ofc. But I mean it; she's a minor character, her account is not so important, I think.)
btw2., there's still a lot of unexplained things in ME, and much to be seen, I think; given what we seen in "Evolution" especially, one may think the Reapers have a lot of things up their sleeves (tentacles? whatever).
btw3., ME's lore is not as consistent as you may think it is.

Anyway, even if this theory faces some minor problems - some things are left unexplained atm - isn't it still the most backed up by ME facts theory around? It's for sure better than all this "Vigil was lying" stuff that was so popular at ME2's forums lately.

Modifié par przemichal, 18 juin 2011 - 01:06 .

[Zulmoka531]

I sort of see some large similarities between Reapers and the Necrons from the Warhammer universe tbh.

[crimzontearz]

przemichal wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

wait I am not following this

Rana Thanoptis specifically says that indoctrination is a "signal" not a bunch of nanites

if it was nanites she would have known so given she gave autopsies to several dead indoctrinated specimen.....

knightnblu already explained how he thinks it's still coherent, and it's convincing. Moreover, the nanites communicate via QEC; if nothing else, it can be kind of explanation for the "signal".
btw., I don't remember her mentioning anything about autopsies. BUT WHO CARES - SHE'S DEAD! (Joke ofc. )
btw2., there's still a lot of unexplained things in ME, and much to be seen, I think; given what we seen in "Evolution" especially, one may think the Reapers have a lot of things up their sleeves (tentacles? whatever).

she specifies "dissecting brains" during one of the conversations....which means she should have found them

I still call BS

not to mention the colonists on Eden Prime say sovereign "made a sound like the screech of the damned that bore into your skull" obviously referring to the indoctrinating signal..... and they were literally miles away from it

Again not likely nanites

but if Bioware decides to explain indoctrination like that I'm cool with it as long as it does not turn into some BS like the thermal clips lol

[przemichal]

crimzontearz wrote...

przemichal wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

wait I am not following this

Rana Thanoptis specifically says that indoctrination is a "signal" not a bunch of nanites

if it was nanites she would have known so given she gave autopsies to several dead indoctrinated specimen.....

knightnblu already explained how he thinks it's still coherent, and it's convincing. Moreover, the nanites communicate via QEC; if nothing else, it can be kind of explanation for the "signal".
btw., I don't remember her mentioning anything about autopsies. BUT WHO CARES - SHE'S DEAD! (Joke ofc. )
btw2., there's still a lot of unexplained things in ME, and much to be seen, I think; given what we seen in "Evolution" especially, one may think the Reapers have a lot of things up their sleeves (tentacles? whatever).

she specifies "dissecting brains" during one of the conversations....which means she should have found them

I still call BS

not to mention the colonists on Eden Prime say sovereign "made a sound like the screech of the damned that bore into your skull" obviously referring to the indoctrinating signal..... and they were literally miles away from it

Again not likely nanites

but if Bioware decides to explain indoctrination like that I'm cool with it as long as it does not turn into some BS like the thermal clips lol

Before "Evolution" we thought that the dragon teeth are the only way Reapers huskify people; the comic shows us otherwise. At worst, the case may be similiar with indoctrination. At best, it will all be explained.
Anyway, even if you scrap the nanites part, the main thesis of this theory - that THE REAPERS STARTED WITH INDOCTRINATION (somehow) - is still intriguing. More to it, it's simply a good writing. (It would ofc be cliche if not for the consequences of the Reapers' existence and the way the indoctrination subplot unfolds.)

Modifié par przemichal, 18 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[Davie McG]

crimzontearz wrote...

wait I am not following this

Rana Thanoptis specifically says that indoctrination is a "signal" not a bunch of nanites

if it was nanites she would have known so given she gave autopsies to several dead indoctrinated specimen.....

She also said in the next breath (paraphrasing) "perhaps signal isn't the right word, more of an energy..."

dunno if that makes much of a difference though I know f*ck all about nanites.