64 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Olivia]

We know how TIM got his nanites. In Evolution, he grabs his friend who touched the Reaper artifact. The friend turns into a husk, and TIM gets the spooky eyes.

EDIT: Should have read more carefully. You mean the nanites he uses to infect Grayson? Well, from the Collector base. I thought that was rather obvious.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 18 juin 2011 - 05:21 .

[OdanUrr]

I'm sorry but aside from the games, I've zero knowledge of the ME universe. I doubt, and sincerely hope, that the answers to many, if not all, of the questions raised throughout the games will be addressed with material from the games themselves. Otherwise it would feel a bit like cheating.

[Lady Olivia]

OdanUrr wrote...

I'm sorry but aside from the games, I've zero knowledge of the ME universe. I doubt, and sincerely hope, that the answers to many, if not all, of the questions raised throughout the games will be addressed with material from the games themselves. Otherwise it would feel a bit like cheating.

Hm. For me, the speculation about the "lore" is a big part of enjoying an extended franchise such as ME. Why must everything be spelled out? I mean, I'm sure we'll get the answers to the big questions in ME3, but I bet there will be enough loose ends for us talk about for years to come, and I'm kind of looking forward to it.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 18 juin 2011 - 05:33 .

[przemichal]

OdanUrr wrote...

I'm sorry but aside from the games, I've zero knowledge of the ME universe. I doubt, and sincerely hope, that the answers to many, if not all, of the questions raised throughout the games will be addressed with material from the games themselves. Otherwise it would feel a bit like cheating.

The nanites were mentioned quite many times as to now: especially in ME2's codex entries (about the Collectors' creations). btw, ME's media are all great on expanding the universe, you should try them books.

[WizenSlinky0]

Lady Olivia wrote...

Heh, seems like one of us needs to play ME again.
He sure looked like he had a variety of Reaper implants to me from the first. And what of his biotics?

Can't tell you how to read the book, but the implications were clear enough for me.

Thin ice there. In the end of Revelation, he's thinking about how he'll find other moneymen to finance his project. It's never stated that he's rich, although ME seems to imply it. But at the time of Revelation, he certainly wasn't.

Perhaps it's not very probable, much less a certainty. But nothing you said contradicts my idea strongly enough as to call it implausible.

No offense, but I don't think I'm the one that needs to replay ME1's ending.

This conversation happens in the Citadel and I can give you the video if you'd like.

Saren: "I've changed since then. Improved. Soverign has...upgraded me."
Shepard: "You let Soverign implant you!? Are you insane!?"

Shepard draws a distinct difference between Saren's previous indoctrination and his new reaperized implants.

As for Kahlee, meh, it's a difference of opinion on how we read into it that can't really be settled either way since there's very little in the way of evidence to support either position. 

Saren was cunning, ruthless, and a Spectre. He had resources, if limited. The council explictely states that Saren had a way of inspiring people to act on his behalf and they give no indictation that this is a recent development (post soverign descovery). Obviously, yes, some of his minions were indoctrinated. But he was a convincing personality and I really don't think he would have had to indoctrinate everybody who worked for him. Seems implausible.

"Not very probable" and "Implausible" are different ways of saying the same thing. I'm certainly not saying it's impossible. Just unlikely given what we know.

przemichal wrote...
What you said about the radiation pulse is
true. But I'm not really into speculating how did TIM get his lil'
nanites. The derelict Reaper - it's a safe bet. The base? - If you gave
him the base, it is all right, but if you destroyed it, it's not (not
until he scrapped the remains). What IS important is that he has them.
Somehow, somewhere he did get them and he's using it to experiment on
people.

As I said, it's just a speculation theory; there is no
proof pro, but also no proof contra, not really, not yet; so we have to
accept it or not, and if we do, then try to develop it as far as we can
basing on the evidence we have. So far, I guess, we know that cloaking
tech in ME's universe is not bad. If Normandy can enter star system
undetected, nanite can surely enter someone's nervous system.

Also,
this theory is good because among all other Reapers theories it is
"probable" in light of the things we know about this universe and
storytelling in general. Especially, we know that if there's going to be
a big twist in the last part of the trilogy, it should utilize some of
the background material provided by two previous parts; and if it's to
be a good writing, it has to affect you the way you say OH MY GOD!
I CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T SEE IT COMING! IT WAS SO OBVIOUS!

I'm not really commenting directly on the theory they evolved from nanites. If it is a path they go down to it would have to happen in a way that the nanites bonded with organic materal to do so. As they've already shown they require it in order to create a reaper.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the theory but there's really no proof, as you said, that one can offer otherwise. It's pure speculation and not entirely impossible. Machines evolve just as humans do *shrug*

Parah_Salin wrote...

Yeah. They also might not just be
spread out EVERYWHERE. Like the complexity of what the reapers do with
the nanites makes me think they don't just act like random dust that
gets spilled everywhere. They could easily be contained somewhere, and a
reapers is pretty big ship, there would be areas, nooks, crannies,
etc... that they wouldn't have found.

We also don't know what
materials they are made of, but given thier interactions with organic
beings and the reapers genetic tampering ability I wouldn't be surprised
if they use the same proteins and such that make up our bodies.

As
to where TIM got his nanites, the collectors were turning people into
husks pretty quickly. There were also dragon's teeth in a lot of places
before all the collectors and such. Anything husking people that quickly
would have alot of nanites.

All of this said, something had to huskify those scientists on board, and that means reaper tech got into them somehow.

Eh it's not that there wasn't any, it was that I don't believe they are airborne. It's far more likely that after surcombing to indoctrination the reapers influenced their minds to basically just huskify themselves for the greater good.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 18 juin 2011 - 05:45 .

[Wolfborn Son]

Luc0s wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...

I sort of see some large similarities between Reapers and the Necrons from the Warhammer universe tbh.

That's what I was thinking! Though the big difference is that each Reaper is a nation, while the Necrons are individuals turned into ruthless, cold, calculated killing machines.

But you're right, in many ways, the Necrons and Reapers are similar to each other. I wonder if the origin of the Reapers will also be similar to the origin of the Necrons. If it turns out that the Reapers are merely soldiers created and commanded by an even greater form of existence (just like the Necrons), my mind would be blown!

...That actually makes sense.

The Reapers are self-aware (like Nercon Lords) using the Collectors (all other Nercons) to serve them and help them in wiping the galaxy clean of life.  In turn, they serve might greater power - whether they are aware of it or not.  If ME4 brought a new threat, powerful god-like beings that devour stars and souls, I might be able to live with that.  C'tan ftw.

[Lady Olivia]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

No offense, but I don't think I'm the one that needs to replay ME1's ending.

This conversation happens in the Citadel and I can give you the video if you'd like.

Saren: "I've changed since then. Improved. Soverign has...upgraded me."
Shepard: "You let Soverign implant you!? Are you insane!?"

Shepard draws a distinct difference between Saren's previous indoctrination and his new reaperized implants.

Heh, none taken. I don't remember ME1 all that well. Saren's appearance doesn't change much throughout the game, but from that dialog it's clear enough that you're right about the implants.

No comment about his biotics, though? He used biotic attacks on Virmire, prior to implantation, and nothing in Revelation indicates he was a biotic before meeting Sovereign. On the other hand, we know that the nanites give biotic powers.

[WizenSlinky0]

Lady Olivia wrote...
Heh, none taken. I don't remember ME1 all that well. Saren's appearance doesn't change much throughout the game, but from that dialog it's clear enough that you're right about the implants.

No comment about his biotics, though? He used biotic attacks on Virmire, prior to implantation, and nothing in Revelation indicates he was a biotic before meeting Sovereign. On the other hand, we know that the nanites give biotic powers.

Kind of forgot about it as I was typing. Though, I don't have much to say on the topic. It's always confused me.

It was the only time I can remember where we actually pelted biotic attacks and there are plenty of situations where a biotic attack could have been used, that never is. Shepard also makes absolutely no comment about it being strange.

It could be nanites. It could have been thrown in for dramatic effect. The book could have avoided it to avoid spoiling his character (i'm not sure how close to the first game it was released).

I simply haven't a clue.

[przemichal]

In the "Evolution" comic Saren also doesn't seem much like having biotic abilities; none - at all. Just checked it out.

Modifié par przemichal, 18 juin 2011 - 10:36 .

[Lady Olivia]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...
No comment about his biotics, though? He used biotic attacks on Virmire, prior to implantation, and nothing in Revelation indicates he was a biotic before meeting Sovereign. On the other hand, we know that the nanites give biotic powers.

Kind of forgot about it as I was typing. Though, I don't have much to say on the topic. It's always confused me.

It was the only time I can remember where we actually pelted biotic attacks and there are plenty of situations where a biotic attack could have been used, that never is. Shepard also makes absolutely no comment about it being strange.

It could be nanites. It could have been thrown in for dramatic effect. The book could have avoided it to avoid spoiling his character (i'm not sure how close to the first game it was released).

I simply haven't a clue.

Yeah, it's strange.

Don't think the book was trying to avoid it. There's a scene where Saren, Anderson, Khalee and Grissom fight off that krogan merc, and then Anderson says to Saren, "Well won't you go after him?" And Saren replies, "Only a fool goes after a biotic krogan armed only with [a pistol]." Don't think he'd say that if he were biotic.

Perhaps it was thrown in just for drama, yes. I prefer to believe it was "real" because it supports my theory. 

[ZLurps]

Lady Olivia wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...
No comment about his biotics, though? He used biotic attacks on Virmire, prior to implantation, and nothing in Revelation indicates he was a biotic before meeting Sovereign. On the other hand, we know that the nanites give biotic powers.

Kind of forgot about it as I was typing. Though, I don't have much to say on the topic. It's always confused me.

It was the only time I can remember where we actually pelted biotic attacks and there are plenty of situations where a biotic attack could have been used, that never is. Shepard also makes absolutely no comment about it being strange.

It could be nanites. It could have been thrown in for dramatic effect. The book could have avoided it to avoid spoiling his character (i'm not sure how close to the first game it was released).

I simply haven't a clue.

Yeah, it's strange.

Don't think the book was trying to avoid it. There's a scene where Saren, Anderson, Khalee and Grissom fight off that krogan merc, and then Anderson says to Saren, "Well won't you go after him?" And Saren replies, "Only a fool goes after a biotic krogan armed only with [a pistol]." Don't think he'd say that if he were biotic.

Perhaps it was thrown in just for drama, yes. I prefer to believe it was "real" because it supports my theory. 

There are more than Saren's biotic ablities can get to see on Virmire. He was clearly changed, see screenshot at:
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Virmire_Saren_Fueltank_Full_Shot_Cropped.png

Then what comes to nanides as they are called in Retribution I just read (chapter 6, p. 88) it says "...Reaper technology we recovered from the Collectors..." In context, it doesn't need to be a Collector base, but perhaps from Collector bodies (capturing one alive would be impossible for obvious reasons) that would also mean that nanidites won't (at least always) self-destruct when the host dies. Fight agaisnt Husk of Saren is example of that.

I like this thread really, but I think there is too much accounted for nadides and too little for other information in ME games. We can learn about indoctrination and ultra- and infrasonic waves from codex. Also EMP signals are mentioned being part of indoctrination signal.

My theory is that indoctrination signal re-programs organic body to produce nanides. Just see how ultrasonics is used in modern, real life biomedicine.

• Using therapeutic ultrasound to ablate tumors or other tissue non-invasively.
• Delivering chemotherapy to brain cancer cells and various drugs to other tissues is called acoustic targeted drug delivery (ATDD).[17] These procedures generally use high frequency ultrasound (1-10 MHz) and a range of intensities (0-20 watts/cm2). The acoustic energy is focused on the tissue of interest to agitate its matrix and make it more permeable for therapeutic drugs.
• Using therapeutic ultrasound to generate cellular effects in soft tissue.
• Additional physiological effects of low-intensity ultrasound have recently been discovered, e.g. the ability to stimulate bone-growth and its potential to disrupt the blood-brain barrier for drug delivery.
• Doppler ultrasound is being tested for use in aiding tissue plasminogen activator treatment.
• Low intensity pulsed ultrasound is used for therapeutic tooth and bone regeneration.
• Ultrasound in the low MHz range in the form of standing waves is an emerging tool for contactless separation, concentration and manipulation of microparticles and biological cells, a method referred to as acoustophoresis.

More at:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound

In Retribution Cerberus feeds somesort of nanide goo in Grayson's stomach and also directly in his brain. Still, nanides weren't effective enough alone, but Redsand needed to be used. This is just way too ****ing ineffective to be the only way for Reapers to indoctrinate their victims.

Edit: Typos, etc.

Modifié par ZLurps, 19 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Lady Olivia]

ZLurps wrote...

Still, nanides weren't effective enough alone, but Redsand needed to be used. This is just way too ****ing ineffective to be the only way for Reapers to indoctrinate their victims.

Heh, at first I was going to correct you and say that it's nanites and not nanides but I just checked in Retribution and you're right.

So, people: naniDes.

And I think we're mostly in agreement here that nanides are not the only way of indoctrination. Reapers and Reaper artifacts can also indoctrinate using some sort of field.

What field? Hard to say. If it were electromagnetic, it would be trivial to detect, so I doubt it. If it were mechanical (like sound, including ultra/infrasound) it would also be trivial to detect and also that type of wave/signal can't travel through vacuum, so doubtful as well. What else remains? Gravity? Doesn't sound right. ME field? Same as gravity.

It's anybody's guess, really.

[ZLurps]

Lady Olivia wrote...

What field? Hard to say. If it were electromagnetic, it would be trivial to detect, so I doubt it. If it were mechanical (like sound, including ultra/infrasound) it would also be trivial to detect and also that type of wave/signal can't travel through vacuum, so doubtful as well. What else remains? Gravity? Doesn't sound right. ME field? Same as gravity.

It's anybody's guess, really.

My guess is that it's combination of sonics and electromagnetics at least. While those can be detected by measuring devices, normal human for example wouldn't necessarily have much of an idea what is really happening. They might feel dizziness, nausea, psychological effects, but essentially they wouldn't know what causes them. Ultra and infrasonic frequencies are way beyond our ability to hear.

It's however weird that Cerberus science team weren't able to detect what's happening in the derelict Reaper especially because they probably had the best mobile gear available. I can't make any plausible."fanwank" scenario in my mind that they "didn't just felt like checking things like that".

That said, colonists on Eden Prime told that they heard the Reaper signal. That indoctrination can be very subtle, it doesn't has to be.

Edit: I have a funny feeling that I have forgotten something regarding indoctrination.

Modifié par ZLurps, 19 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[crimzontearz]

przemichal wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and wait a second, how could the cerberus team on the derelict reaper be indoctrinated if indoctrination is caused by nanites? One ofthe video diaries specifies there was no nanotech activity on board at all

If so, the diary may be a false account, because if there was no nanotech activity onboard the Reaper, the question arises: where from did TIM get his nanites (I mean the ones he used to infect Grayson with)? Because he didn't get them from the Collectors' base. Why? Because they would get destroyed by impulse as well as an explosion, I guess. And what if you destroyed the base? Then the book would contradict player's decisions: and that would be a fail. (I know there is a problem with Udina being councilor, but it can be well explained, especially since Anderson seemed to dislike his duty in ME2 if you chosen him in ME1.) And even if there were no nanites onboard the Reaper, indoctrination may come in many types, just like Lady Olivia pointed. Just why not?
Also, the nanites may simply be hard to detect: Cerberus' team didn't detect them, Rana didn't detect them... you know. Seems like a good point to me.

Moreover, even if you are right, it still wouldn't contradict the thesis that the Reapers started with indoctrination, and this is the most important part of this theory.

not to me.

The Diary did not say that there were no nanides but that they were not active

Obviously they collected specimens that TIM used later on but they were not "active"...yet the team was being indoctrinated

Also, if the nanides went undetected then how did TIM get them and used them later on? If no one detected them no one knows they are there hence TIM never got them

it just makes little sense to me

[ZLurps]

crimzontearz wrote...

The Diary did not say that there were no nanides but that they were not active

Obviously they collected specimens that TIM used later on but they were not "active"...yet the team was being indoctrinated

Also, if the nanides went undetected then how did TIM get them and used them later on? If no one detected them no one knows they are there hence TIM never got them

it just makes little sense to me

Yep.
I recalled what was bothering me about indoctrination. It was this whole nanide thing, I hope it isn't like new version of midicholrians, or what ever it was Lucas made up.