56 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

I do not have the books or the PnP book, alas I have the lore from the game and some speculations. I am somewhat confused about the nature of these beasts. Lets get over the part which I (believe I) understand, and then the questions I have.  Obviously the lore in the game is made in a way that there are perspectives (I do love that a lot) so there might be contradictional information present.

Origin stories
Yadayada once upon a time there were gods, which we refer to as OLD GODS now. They appeared to the living creatures as dragons and they brought us the knowledge of magic use. Trevinter Imperium were most affected by this religion.
Dumat - silence
Zazike - chaos
Toth - fire
Andoral - slaves
Urthemiel - beauty
Razikale - mystery
Lusacan - night

With the level of tolerance of the Chantry you can imagine what they thought about them. They call it the first sin: people leaving the Maker for the Old Gods. The Maker being pissed at the people imprisoned the gods underground, where they sleep. Those who sleep wander the Fade, so do the old gods, who managed to contact the Magisters of Trevinter Imperium. They thought them how to use magic for the promise of their freedom.  According to this pact the Magisters stormed the Golen City (heaven of Maker, corrupted by the presence of living into the Black City). And bammm, darkspawn are created.

Accordingly I already have a little problem of comprehension. What -are- the darkspawn?
How did it all happen? So they stepped in, they saw perfection and perfection shuttered by their imprefection and ceased to exist. (Returning theme of the darkspawn it seems.) So the taint was created- maybe as a punishment of the Maker? Or did it become as an accident? Or was it the old god's magic that went awry? Is the taint magical? Natural? Divine of origine? What is the taint????

Old Gods and the Darkspwawn
I know I should take the first blight chronologically, but as I have some confusions there, let us start with this instead.
So we have these pure old gods sleeping burried deep under the ground. They are themselves untainted and we can presume they don't harbour nice feelings toward the Maker. Just like Titans had a little grudge against Zeus They call out to the world hoping someone will free them.
Darkspawn for some reason are tuned to their call (maybe due to the promise the mages made to the gods they never managed to fulfill? If they stem from those magisters, then maybe there was a magical link that went over to the new darkspawns that makes them so sensitive?) and they tirelessly dig to find and free them. There is some speculation here, that indicates that it is the beauty of the song that draws them. They see it as beautiful (Ruck gives a little insight here too), perfection. They seek it but just like the mages ruined the Golden City, the darksspawn corrupt the old gods and make them archdemons instead (I guess the name is somewhat misleading. Or maybe not. Demons are the creatures of the Fade? Who seek their way into the world of living to explore it and due to their hunger? But the old gods aren't native to the Fade, or maybe they are, but it didn't appear for me so. ). Now the archdemon, this corrupted dragon-god doesn't stop calling but stands on the top of his troups and goes to the surface and causes a blight. Spreading the corruption into the soul, the land, the living, the plants... until stopped.

Questions: are the dragons aware? Likely are. Do they go insane? Or can they? Being imprisoned without the ability to move and talk for thousands of years, does it affect them? How? Is it only the darkspawn who go and try to freed them? How about the other old god worshipers? It seems to be logical that their priests try to find them too. 

Why the blight? What is the motivation of the arch demons? Revenge? Freeing the other gods? Destroying the other gods? Punishing the believers of the maker? Or are they plane insane and destroying everything just because they are insane? Or they just prefer the darkspawn over people and see them eg as their own spawn? And thus want to further the living environment of their spawn as opposed to everything else? I obviously am confused here.

The first Blight
The Magisters are suddenly darkspawn themselves. Corrupted humans. Lets put aside the fact of what and how corrupted them. But they were just as many. How did the other darkspawn come? Was it that the mages directly had to go and infect humans, qunari, elves etc? Or was it a burst of taint that spread out over the world? One who is not born as a dark spawn will be affected by the taint, becoming a ghoul or a blight creature, with a severly short lifespawn. Either they go entirely insane and on a killing sprea or they just join in the darkspawn and follow the urge to join the archdemon (or to dig for old gods). So how did the first darkspawn come to be? Did magisters start to make broodmothers? Why? They didn't need it.
So there was a darkspawn horde with the Magisters at the front of them. I guess the calling got strong for them and they dag out one of the god, corrupting it too (Dumat was the first) and so they swarmed the land to kill everything.
People couldn't fight them, because alas the archdemon can not be killed unless the killer's body contains archdemon blood. It must have been diffiicult to be the first of Wardens too and it must have been either some odd barbarian ceremony of drinking your enemies blood or.. pure chance? that they discovered how to make the wardens. (So, how did they get that? How did they manage?)

If the archdemon is slain, then the soul goes into the nearest darkspawn, unless there is someone with the archdemon blood and taint in them. In which case it clashes into that and destroys both.  It was told that the dragon's body is but an empty vessel. (Now I am confused again. If the dragon's body is but an empty vessel, why did they dig through the earth for thousands of years to find them anyway? Why not find the souls in the Fade and free them in the form of abomination? And what then, does the possessed darkspawn suddenly and miraculously transform into a dragon or does it preserve its shape? )

In peace vigilance
We know that darkspawn spend their peaceful time during blights by
- rioting against the dwarves
- reproducing (apparently they do have the dwarves as they need them for the brood mothers)
- digging for the gods
- occasional raids for the surface for ... uhm... killing and capturing humans for eating and creating ghouls and .. I guess human broodmothers?

I am less and less thinking they are mindless. But what about their social structure? 
They are led by commanders. The story of the game finishes that some of them remain on the surface led by strong generals or commanders which are difficult to hunt down. What is their goal? How do they talk? How do they decide whom to obey? What motivates them???Do they just dig and dig, or do they use brains? Make others dig for them and keep slaves? They must be aware, no, or how do they know the recipe for creating broodmothers? Or is it a bee like structure with a collective mind where the feelings are the way of communication amongs the species?  We know that darkspawn do not hurt each other. If they think you are one of them, then they leave you alone (But wardens are one of them, aren't they? Yet they have no trouble fighting you.)

What are the dawkspawn items? Made by darkspawn or stolen from people and thus worse in their use? I was rather displeased to see the first darkspawn weaopon, but then I remembered the intro of the game where they show a makeshift sword in a human, which might be indeed made by skilless people. Still very good for someone who is not a smith. But then, are they coordinated enough to have some appointed to arrange for the supplies?

In war victory
When the archdemon awakes they instantly go into war. Do they follow some strategy? They did go for Denerim instead of  Redcliff. But I never understood why the first battle took place at all. They could have simply avoided it? I guess I just don't see the reason behind the blight as a whole. I understand that as long as there is an archdemon they will fight no matter what. Do they make up traps or are they the frontal assault swarming kind? Of course there were some rouges that pop out of the ground (How do they do that? I know people said it, but I have difficulty picturing it. It was a shadow skill used, right? And people exeggarating about it)

Are the dragons in one place? All under Orzamar? Or they are scattered throughout the world? 

I guess this is more then enough questions for the first go. I might have messed up facts, obviously I am not understanding what I write about, thus I write about it asking for clarifications. I was thinking on writing a mod and realised without these questions answered it is basically impossible for me to come up with a well based enemy. Thank you for any information that helps.

Modifié par Lianaar, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:24 .

[The Angry One]

As to their origin, personally I think the whole Golden City malarkey is bunk. I don't think there ever was. If there was I'd be very disappointed as it's rather a trite tale. Ooh we corrupted perfection with man's sin, ooh. What, do we sweat sin now?



Rather I think there was always a Black City, or whatever it really is, and something down there turned any human who ventured there into darkspawn.

[Valfreyja]

Going by personal guessing I'd say there was a Golden City at one point in the Fade, but I have my doubts that it was blackened by the Tevinter Mages(even though they did come across as a nasty bunch and given the requirements to enter the Fade just with your spirit, I don't doubt that they may have sacrificed a lot of people to do enter the Fade and the City). Something definitely did corrupt that place at some point or another, but the question then is what? Well perhaps future Dragon Age games and books will reveal the truth.

[sylkwyrm1]

we believe what we want to believe, it is all we ever do

i just like quoting that today,



as to thier origins all i read was some chantry religious stuff along the lines of pandoras box or original sin, the fact is all you have to go on is what your character can learn, and in a world ruled by the chantry you either believe thier typically plot hole riddled tales.. or not,



maybe there was always darkspawn beneath the earth, no-one knew about them until they found an old trapped dragon possibly starving.. who chowed down on them and got tainted, the taint itself seems a means of empathic if not telepathic communication. the dragon found itself worshipped and longed to return to the surface or perhaps it was a desire for revenge, the dragons clearly were beneath the earth, but how they got there *shrugs*



btw i cleary have not read as much of the codex entries as you have so i can't really give you any answers as you have more info than i do, i can only guess

[sylkwyrm1]

and they are clearly not unintelligent, laughing at you when they crit is definately a recognition of and enjoyment of causing more pain, thats definately a sentient trait, not like ants fighting for more territory, they seem more like your bog standard orcs/goblins/ogres to me in that regard

[Baalzie]

Broodmothers: There is need for such of each race for the Darkspawn... Human Broodmothers spawn Hurlocks, Dwarfs=Genlocks Qunari=Ogres...



The Maker vs Old gods...

Well, what if it was like this?:



The Old gods were the ones who resided in the Golden City...

They were the same as the Elven Creators...

The Magisters went against the Old gods/Creators when they started the attacks on The Elves...

Possibly to try and steal their immortality via magical means... *just as that old stooge in Wardens Peak has managed via his research, hold off the taint and stay alive for longer than normal human lifespan by far but probably more powerful than him having forgotten knowledges et al*

They were also tricked by one of their own, The Elven Dread Wolf...

Who pitched the "good aligned" versus the "evil aligned" of said creators and trapped them all under ground in Dragon form...

This Dread Wolf of the Elves is also the one of the Old gods who aren't imprisoned And thus took to call himself "The Maker" being now the only god still there he could do so unopposed...

And to enssure followers for ever after, he blamed the very same mages he tricked for the whole debacle and created the Chantry with it's smart line "when the Chants can be heard in all corners of the world the Maker will return" so that humanity will actually cvampion him and still keep the mages *who are the ones capable of debunking gods afterall as they showed, why he used the to do so* in check...

The taint I haven't managed to fuklly incorporate in this, but I have almost managed to puzzle in that in a way that fits aswell...





So food for thought?

Remember I said it first...

[Baalzie]

Oh I forgot to say that The elven city was a copy of the Golden City in the Fade ofc... So when it got razed by the Tevinter mages the original got tainted.... That's the origoin of the taint'ish...

[Majspuffen]

Not sure if we can sew up an answer just yet. Many questions remain to be answered, alot of dlc and possibly even expansion awaits, which might give us more info. I suppose Bioware has the answers, but I think they want us to be curious.

I for one do not know what drives them, if it is anger towards the living or just insanity, who knows... Although, darkspawn -do- attack eachothers (I recall reading this somewhere, can't remember the source. Could've been the codex), however that is when they have no archdemon to lead them. Darkspawn emissaries, well, hurlock emissaries can talk. We havn't heard them talk yet but the codex says they can, so they got some brains after all.

The darkspawn needs women to reproduce, perhaps at first they just captured women and raped them, and those who survived would give birth to new darkspawn. And for them to survive for at least 9 months they'd need nourishment, so they fed them with humans (possibly captured males, since they had no real use for them). How the transformation to a broodmother works, we have no idea. Perhaps that is what it takes, some darkspawn taint and human flesh. Or perhaps there's something even more sinister, shudder to think about it.

Alistair says that the archdemon "talks" to the darkspawns "group mind". If there is no archdemon, then there is no blight. The old gods themselves seem to be sinister. The codex have hints that great leaders has been corrupted by them. It is probably them who calls on the darkspawn. If the darkspawn would destroy the entire world, what would happen then? My guess is that they'll start killing eachothers. In the end, nothing will remain. If that is what the archdemon wants, well, then why not gather a blight. Why they'd want it though, I have nooooo idea.

As for the golden city, if it's true or not... who knows. The ashes of andraste were real (or perhaps the whole thing was just one, big, huuuuge coincidence, that Eamons disease disappeared by itself just before he was "cured" by the ashes, but I very much doubt that), so I wouldn't deny it. Of course, there could have been other magics to the ashes.

There's alot I ponder too, but hopefully things will show up in the Codex.

[Baalzie]

Majspuffen wrote...



As for the golden city, if it's true or not... who knows. The ashes of andraste were real (or perhaps the whole thing was just one, big, huuuuge coincidence, that Eamons disease disappeared by itself just before he was "cured" by the ashes, but I very much doubt that), so I wouldn't deny it. Of course, there could have been other magics to the ashes.

There's alot I ponder too, but hopefully things will show up in the Codex.

Here, the book You can give to Wynne as a gift might have some insights...
The one that ponders the possibility of Andraste not being a prophet at all but a powerful mage in opposition of the Tevinters...

And the beauty of not saying anything about "This is how it IS" but instead saying "This is what they say and this is what others say" is that Bioware can change the story/Background more or less the whole world without breaking the Lore too much, since they haven't written anything in stone, but just dropped hints... And Lore... And made it actually contradictory... ^^
Smart move, but then BioWare know their stuff by now...

[Baalzie]

And *getting good at answer my own posts by now* ofcouyrse Andraste could still have been the Makers Prophet... The Maker in my guesswork still exists, he just lied to everyone *being one of many who became solo, The Victor declares history* and might stil have digged the lady... *S*

[Lianaar]

I utterly love the idea of having various, contradicting, yet legitimate opinions on the lore. Flemeth's story (all three version) was one of my favourite.

I merely say it is rather hard even if possible to make up stories without knowing base motivations and urges. Eg if they do have a group mind, can a dark spawn decide to challenge the gods and become an archdemon himself? Would they have such a desire at all? Obviously writing up a story (Either a mod or a PnP story) that counts on them being greedy on their own will be false if they don't have the ability of hiding thoughts form another.



Btw, Baalzie, I enjoyed your version of the archdemon creation a lot

[sylkwyrm1]

we believe what we want to beleive, it is all we ever do.



nope still not bored of having captain janeways voice in my head

[Lianaar]

As for Andraste, she wasn't a purely positive person, not in my reading. It was heart aching to hear her friend talk of her. Saying she used to sing of beautiful things and was a delight to be around. But she is no more, her songs took another tune.

I also question if there truely is a Maker. The cult of the dragon believed that Andraste lives. They had all the proof they needed for it. The same way someone could take the place of a Maker if they are powerful enough to pull up a bit of show. Not to mention that the Maker's real show was: once you make everyone pray for me, I will prove I exist. Niiiice.

[sylkwyrm1]

*stops himself form saying it again* thats the whole point with the lore, it why discussing it so much afterwards is so enjoyable and causes flemeths words to haunt me, we just don't know, it's all religion and folk lore.

though i must say finding andraste's ashes with their healing powers (confirmed in my ending by many pilgrims who go there to partake of thier healing powers)  and speaking to the gaurdian who was apparently alive at the time, basically like talking to mathew mark luke or john etc. made me believe she was real and the stories were real about what she accomplished, what she believed, and how she died, though none but her actually spoke to the maker, though they saw miracles, which i assume were beyond the scope of mere magic, or perhaps they saw magic and called it divine intervention, faith is funny that way.

she led an army to do what seems like a good thing, a lot of the good she did was undone by the church that arose in her name (soo realistic), freeing the elves  for example, still discovering a living woman lived and accomplished great things is very different to believing there was a divine hand anywhere near the situation, though the power of the ashes does make you wonder, such potent magic, unknown anywhere else.. makes ya wonder

Modifié par sylkwyrm1, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[Baalzie]

Yes...
We wouldn't HAVE all these fun discussions about the Lore if it would have been stated as facts by Bioware...
They know this...
They've learned this doing RPG's for a tad more than a month now...

I fast saw likenesses between the elven Creator Lore and Lost God Lore...
The Golden City lost to the taint versus Amarathar lost to The Tevinter mages...
The Old Gods unable to answer prayers and help the Mages, Just as the creators  for the elves...
And one creator said to have been NOT locked up but fooling all else and locked up lost gods and The Maker taking over... Hmmm... ^^

It's like two photos of the same place, taken from different angles^^
One from Tevinter mages angle and one from Pummeled Elves angle...

Add to it the smearing of both from the Maker *read Chantry* Sounding like something The Dread Wolf would do.. And well... Makes for a good story if nothing else^^

And yes, The Ghost guardian at Andraste makes the character more prone to believing BUT he doesn't say the Maker exists... He's also just the ghost of a once living guardian... A follower of Andraste, so ofc he probably believes what he says then?

If I were to use real magic and claim to be blessed by god, 25% would worship me, 25% hate me for being hellspawn, and 50% not sure what to believe... ^^
Same would go for people in the game I presume:bandit:

[sylkwyrm1]

yup precisely what i meant, about evidence of andraste and still no evidence of the maker, as for your other theories, interesting.. i would need to have read a lot more codex than i did to get the references fully though, kept meaning to, but shagging zev was more fun, that'll be for the next playthrough, need to do something while waiting for alistair to make his move..

Modifié par sylkwyrm1, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[Lianaar]

Let me rephrase my questions: time to brainstorm.



What motivations do you think darkspawn have and what do they do in their leisure time? Depending on what explanations you come up for the rest. We got too much detoured into what is cannon. I simply take there is not a single cannon thing, but a set of cannons depending on perspectives. Naturally the dwarves won't believe the darkspawn is connected to the Marker, seeing they don't even believe in the Maker.

[RazorrX]

The old gods could have been actual gods, OR they are just Paragon Dragons. The lore is vey unclear about that. It is known (or said) that the Old Gods/Dragons taught men Blood Magic and Sacrifice. Men began worshiping them, and the sacrifices were to them.



The Physical transferal to the fade took hundreds or thousands of sacrifices (at one time) to achieve.



In 620 (TE) the ruling magisters have a falling out, they want more power and the use of sacrifices and demon summoning becomes markedly increased.



800 (TE) The first effort to free the Old Gods from the underground prisons is undertaken. The most powerful Mage lords open a gate to the Golden City at the heart of the fade. This results in the destruction of the Golden City (it is replaced by the Black City) and the Old God Dumat is freed. Dumat is the First ArchDemon.



The First Blight begins. The Grey Wardens are founded 890 (TE) and the Blight Ends 992 (TE).



(Chantry started 1195 (TE) that is Age 1 (Divine) and year 1 of the Chantry.)



SO the question is: did the assault on the golden city create the blight or are the old gods/dragons totally responsible?

[Majspuffen]

Well, they want to blight the whole world. On their free time they're busy banging the broodmothers and eating eachothers?



Seriously though, I have no idea what their motivations are. Perhaps the archdemon just wants to rid the world of life. Then the blight is sufficient, no? Well, apparently not.

[Haasth]

Majspuffen wrote...

On their free time they're busy banging the broodmothers.

Thanks for the image...

[sylkwyrm1]

or did the darkspawn already exist underground and taint an old god/dragon by digging deeper and discovering one, which was then released by tevinter, or what was dumat -in- the golden city and corrupted along with it?

[sylkwyrm1]

Haasth wrote...

Majspuffen wrote...

On their free time they're busy banging the broodmothers.

Thanks for the image...

you really don't want to know what happens on the sixty-ninth day

[Baalzie]

Darkspawn Leisuretime? That makes me smile^^

Well the odd occasional Dwarfmauling disco aside, I'd say that what drives them is the song... The Old gods song... They are empty vessels, void of souls, the sonmg of the Old gods echoes in their vast emptiness, driving them to find it... And the small remains of memories from their former lives may be what drives them to try and kill and erase that which is a reminder of what they used to be...



The Emissaries are probably spawning for the same reasons as mages get born... They have a spark... And thus different... And they're not likely to join the circle... Hence they are dangerous and get to lead. =)

[Baalzie]

RazorrX wrote...

In 620 (TE) the ruling magisters have a falling out, they want more power and the use of sacrifices and demon summoning becomes markedly increased.

800 (TE) The first effort to free the Old Gods from the underground prisons is undertaken. The most powerful Mage lords open a gate to the Golden City at the heart of the fade. This results in the destruction of the Golden City (it is replaced by the Black City) and the Old God Dumat is freed. Dumat is the First ArchDemon.

The First Blight begins. The Grey Wardens are founded 890 (TE) and the Blight Ends 992 (TE).

(Chantry started 1195 (TE) that is Age 1 (Divine) and year 1 of the Chantry.)

SO the question is: did the assault on the golden city create the blight or are the old gods/dragons totally responsible?

And don't You think it odd that they would assault the Golden City to relase someone in the Undergrund?
Wouldn't they assault the Underground to do so? As the Darkspawn are doing and succeeding over and over?
Would be silly to asault The Golden City to free dragons fromn the Underground...
And the texts were stated to be written by whom specifically?
I can bet You 20 Gold and a roasted nug that it isn't Old elven texts... Or even Tevinter Archives but rather Chantry Researchers...

Even so, they assaulted the Golden City and a Archdemon got tainted *as it's said they get tainted by the Darkspawn to become Archdemons untainted they're still Old Gods* so that'd suggest whoever did something did it tainted and did it in the Golden city... Since that assault there tainted an Old god and freed an Archdemon...

So the Darkspawn must have preceeded the first Archdemon... Archdemons don't make darkspawn, Darkspawn taint Archdemons...
So the taiont was there BEFORE the assault on the Golden City^^
*A curse from Dread Wolf? eh?*

[Forsakerr]

it just hit me , Andraste makes me think about Jeanne d'Arc in a way , both were hearing their gods both got burned ,am i the only one seeing the similarities? i mean maybe Andraste was a bit based on Jeanne d'Arc?