56 réponses à ce sujet

[Haasth]

Forsakerr wrote...

it just hit me , Andraste makes me think about Jeanne d'Arc in a way , both were hearing their gods both got burned ,am i the only one seeing the similarities? i mean maybe Andraste was a bit based on Jeanne d'Arc?

I am betting Andraste was based on Jesus too.

[Baalzie]

Andraste don't follow Jeanne D'Arc much imo...

Jeanne D'Arc is instead protrayed ingame as the Female knight Leliane tells You about, the Maid of Orlais *doh!* ^^

They've nicked quite alot from medieval Europe culturally, making this world^^

[Forsakerr]

Baalzie wrote...

Andraste don't follow Jeanne D'Arc much imo...
Jeanne D'Arc is instead protrayed ingame as the Female knight Leliane tells You about, the Maid of Orlais *doh!* ^^
They've nicked quite alot from medieval Europe culturally, making this world^^

The female knight girl from Orlais did nt led armies which involved a god , i had a kind of flash while reading this topic  i seen similarities between the two , maybe im the only one who sees similarities tho hehe

Modifié par Forsakerr, 20 novembre 2009 - 04:41 .

[Lianaar]

I see the similarities, after all she was Jeane D'Arc of Orlais

They got visions by their respective Gods, they got to lead armies, were victorious, were stopped by betrayal and were burnt for it. They were doubted and adored. But they were different too. Andrastee seems to be more aware of her actions and working out of her free will. She was after all arguing with the Maker.

[RazorrX]

Baalzie wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

In 620 (TE) the ruling magisters have a falling out, they want more power and the use of sacrifices and demon summoning becomes markedly increased.

800 (TE) The first effort to free the Old Gods from the underground prisons is undertaken. The most powerful Mage lords open a gate to the Golden City at the heart of the fade. This results in the destruction of the Golden City (it is replaced by the Black City) and the Old God Dumat is freed. Dumat is the First ArchDemon.

The First Blight begins. The Grey Wardens are founded 890 (TE) and the Blight Ends 992 (TE).

(Chantry started 1195 (TE) that is Age 1 (Divine) and year 1 of the Chantry.)

SO the question is: did the assault on the golden city create the blight or are the old gods/dragons totally responsible?

And don't You think it odd that they would assault the Golden City to relase someone in the Undergrund?
Wouldn't they assault the Underground to do so? As the Darkspawn are doing and succeeding over and over?
Would be silly to asault The Golden City to free dragons fromn the Underground...
And the texts were stated to be written by whom specifically?
I can bet You 20 Gold and a roasted nug that it isn't Old elven texts... Or even Tevinter Archives but rather Chantry Researchers...

Even so, they assaulted the Golden City and a Archdemon got tainted *as it's said they get tainted by the Darkspawn to become Archdemons untainted they're still Old Gods* so that'd suggest whoever did something did it tainted and did it in the Golden city... Since that assault there tainted an Old god and freed an Archdemon...

So the Darkspawn must have preceeded the first Archdemon... Archdemons don't make darkspawn, Darkspawn taint Archdemons...
So the taiont was there BEFORE the assault on the Golden City^^
*A curse from Dread Wolf? eh?*

That whole timeline is from teh special Collectors guide in the history timeline section.

It sounds to me that the Old God/Dragon is relased AS an Archdemon.  The Blight starts later.  So the Taint, the blight, etc. seems to actually start with Dumat.

As to why do they assault the Golden City to free the Old Gods?  To find the locations of them or to force the one (or ones) responsible for the imprisonment to release them.  They were partially successful.  

The chantry teaches that darkspawn taint the old gods.  I think the old gods created the darkspawn.

[Baalzie]

Still haven't stated that anything is nailed as facts... ^^

That's the beauty of how they done this...

History is written by the victors...

That's why it SOUNDS to You he's released as an Archdemon, and well as we know they are STILL released as Archdemons, since the ones releasing them taint them... If they had to be free to sing the Darkspawn wouldn't be drawn to them, and if they are already tainted, why cant Wardens sense/hear them until they get freed and tainted?

^^

And nothing in the Historyline can explain the similarities between Ther elven Creatorlore, the fact they say the Dread Wolf isn't caged *but still silent* and he fooled both good(creators) and bad(Old gods) into inprisonment, when Chantry says The MNaker did just that?

Coincidents? Nah... Well thought out though, and ofc not to be answered or set in stone, because of earlier stated reasons... =)



Ofc, I don't state this as FACTS, since I'm preaching there IS no facts to be had here^^

Just very neatly organized rumours

[RazorrX]

Yeah but the first old god is NOT freed by the darkspawn. So he can not be Tainted by them. He is freed by the Mages.



Old Gods = Archdemons. They dont get corrupted, they get freed.



That is my story and I am sticking to it.

[Lianaar]

Baalzie wrote...
That's why it SOUNDS to You he's released as an Archdemon, and well as we know they are STILL released as Archdemons, since the ones releasing them taint them... If they had to be free to sing the Darkspawn wouldn't be drawn to them, and if they are already tainted, why cant Wardens sense/hear them until they get freed and tainted?

Well, the wardens have the taint but they are not darkspawn, after all very few imderstand what the archdemon says.
I find the soulless vessel part troublesome. I do the presumption that the soul leads the body and that without a soul intelligence is not possible. We clearly see that darkspawn are not without intelligence. Thus they must have a soul. Some sort of it or some residuu of it. I also don't quite get why or how the archdemon's body would be soulless vessel. 

Modifié par Lianaar, 20 novembre 2009 - 05:09 .

[Baalzie]

Then why wasn't there Darkspawn and Blights BEFORE they got released? Before they got imprisoned...

If they already was Archdemons, why didn't they have darkspawn before their imprisonment?



Old Gods=Turned to Archdemons yes... Well known "fact" seen ingame^^

But if they already ARE Archdemons why just release one at a time? Why dont' they release the others? Because they get tainted... If they were already archdemons they'd release the rest and get back what they had, but they go to the surtface and die... Sounds like a smart idea for a god that can grant magic even through dreams don't it? Not really, but acting like OTHER tainted creatures , a tad stupidly and irregularly? Uhuh... They do so uhm maybe they get tainted?



And there's NO sign of the Maker before the disapperance of the Old gods and creators of the elves... If he got peeved from people turning FROM him, shouldn't there be signs they worshipped him before the false gods???

Not that he appeared AFTER they disappeared,,, So, he's the most unlikely candidate for truth in this...

And the only lore about ANY divine being existing after the disappearance of The OId Gods and The Creators is.... The Dread Wolf! =)

A lone god... Creator... Maker... Hmmm.... Doesn't really take a genius to make the connection does it?

[Baalzie]

Lianaar wrote...



Well, the wardens have the taint but they are not darkspawn, after all very few imderstand what the archdemon says.
I find the soulless vessel part troublesome. I do the presumption that the soul leads the body and that without a soul intelligence is not possible. We clearly see that darkspawn are not without intelligence. Thus they must have a soul. Some sort of it or some residuu of it. I also don't quite get why or how the archdemon's body would be soulless vessel. 

Not the Archdemon *since his Godsoul clashes with yours and go boom if he dies* but the Darkspawn are *since they don't go boom*

Probably since the taint take over and eats the "soul" presumably... And we should not take OUR views on what a soul is as much as try and use THEIR  definition of a soul... Since they made the game^^
And Wardens only hafe a scrap of the taint... A very VERY small part...
Darkspawn are consumed by it... The poor tainted souls in the Dark roads are more tainted than Wardens are... ^^
They start losing their "humanity" wardens haven't... Not for like 30 years anyhow  

[Lianaar]

Darkspawn aren't just humans/elves/dwarves tainted as those are the ghouls.

In order to be darkspawn you have to be born as one. That naturally means that the broodmother is more in the field of tainted living then darkspawn alongside with ghouls and blight animals.



And they didn't deliver a definition of soul so I am yet to work with my definition. You are free to provide an opinion on your own.



I do enjoy that we all have opinions and that we all can have validity in it. I would like to preserve that.

[Relshar]

Alot of Dragon Age is based upon some of our own religions and legends.

As for the darkspawn I think they are mutated creatures who lived to close to Lyrium for far to long.

[Riot Inducer]

interesting topic. on the darkspawn themselves and their motivations. It seems to me that the darkspawn have something akin to a "hive mind" each one has it's own mind yes but it seems that they communicate telepathically through the taint perhaps their instinctual desire is to add more consciousness' to their "telepathic network" perhaps due to this they can sense the dragon-gods imprisoned beneath them and it's such a powerful mind/spirit that when it becomes tainted it becomes dominant over all the darkspawn able to command them without their question. The epilogue states that even though the darkspawn horde was largely broken many "warbands" of darkspawn still existed serving the strongest darkspawn warlords, these leaders would have very strong minds/spirits as it were to dominate other darkspawn.

In short my theory is that individual darkspawn don't have true free-will and can be dominated by more powerful darkspawn/tainted minds.



oh and random note on the broodmothers, the codex on em states that each different race makes a different kind of broodmother

dwarf = genlock

human = hurlock

elf = shriek

qunari = ogre

[RazorrX]

Original Darkspawn was the Mages who went to the golden city and, in freeing the first Archdemon, became corrupted and turned into Darkspawn. The females became the first Brood Mothers (Thus most likely first generation Darkspawn were Hurlock).



Think of the fade as an extra planar area. They physically went into fade, to golden city to the 'prison' of the Arch Demon and released him the result destroyed the Golden City and cast them out to the location of the earthly prison of the body (Underground).



Thus Darkspawn happen right after Freeing the first Archdemon. Darkspawn live after Archdemon is killed, and begin to dig for next one as the way to access them in the fade is now gone (golden city).



More believable to me than the Elven Gods were the real gods. There were no real gods. The Arch Demons were originally very very powerful Dragons. Perhaps Paragon or Ascended Dragons. But Dragons. Something (spirit, demon, elf, man, etc.) or group managed to seal them off. The body is burried deep deep underground while the souls were locked in the Fade. That is why the mages went to the Fade to free them. By crossing to the fade and using it as a shortcut to get from A (TI) to B (Location of Archdemon).



But again, everyone has theories and we are all wearing tin foil hats on this because we just do not know the truth (on purpose).

[sylkwyrm1]

*clears throat" we beleive what we want to belie-- meh screw it

[Lianaar]

Alas believing that darkspawn are but caterpillars that turn into the arch-demon butterfly might be still a bit outside of the range of acceptably realistic within the realm of Dragon Age fantasy.

Modifié par Lianaar, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:46 .

[The Angry One]

My theory is: The Black City is the spaceship. The Fade is hyperspace. The Black City got trapped there by Tevinter blood magic while transporting mutant beings from... uh... from Mars. Yeah. The Archdemons are aliens!



I am the leader in tin-foil hattery!

[JamesX]

Arch-demons are tainted Ancient Dragons. There are not spiritual beings.

[Forsakerr]

like JamesX said arch demons are dragons that the darkspawn corrupted , i have no idea where you get your spiritual stuff

[Baalzie]

Resurrecting this marvellous thread!=)



Well to just add ingame support to my seeing the likeness of Arlathan and the Black(once Golden) city:

In the Dalish Origins...



*SPOILERALERT!!!!!!!*



When at the mirror, Whatshisface yer companion talks of what the mirror shows him.... A city UNDER GROUND *note underground, the Black city has skies* with a darkness spreading from it... And the beeing then sees him and forces him to keep staring... Probably thus getting the link needed to get Darkspawn through the mirror into the cave and onward...

That city could well be The "sunken" elven first City... Or a Dwarven one true, but the "Darkness spreading from it" makes that less likely since that hints of an origin, and they didn't originate from a dwarven city since they assaulted the Dwarven citys, makes sense no?

And The Presence is Obviously an Archdemon... Or THE archdemon maybe in this case...

And yeah, about the People becoming darkspawn bit... Play said Origin and meet whatshis face Your companion as a shriek at the ambush of yer camp... *not quite done but still named Shriek, not ghoul*

So even if they state that Different Broodmothers spawn said darkspawn they DON'T say that that's the ONLY way they get created... They actually hints that they thought they were ONLY made by tainted prisoners at first, before they discovered Broodmothers...



And if the Old Gods are the source of Magic, who taught it to the ancient elves? They only communed with the creators, until they got trapped together with the evil ones by their own Dread Wolf...

Another Chantry lie there obviously...



And well, as always, just my view, not canon! since BIOWARE HAVEN'T MADE ANYTHING CANON so stop writing as if they HAVE stated YOUR views as set in stone please...

They say "This is what they believe *elves* and this is what they believe*Chantry* then some think this *Dwarves*" etc etc... Just because they make a document doesn't mean they say THIS IS WHAT WE SAY IS TRUE! they just make a nice additive that could exist INGAME aswell...

And make note that ingame, most documents in the Codex is written by , yep, CHANTRY historians...

They probably are as likely to want the truth as Medieval Church people was...

*heresy! Burn the witch!! Kill the Blasphemer! Crusades aginst the heathens!*

Vs "Exalted marches against everyone not believing in the maker in Dao world!"



*enjoys the awakening of an intersting subject HOPEFULLY without silly smearing or trolling etc*

[Lianaar]

I am still definitely eager to learn what motivates the darkspawn.

Mostly if you can use them for your own means or not. If you can make pacts with them. Or what causes some to have intelligence or not.

So far we know that normal living if getting the taint

--can horribly die in a short lifespan

--can be cursed by the taint and become ghouls, which are crazed killing mashines

-- possibly become darkspawn?? That would be interesting, if we presume they preserve some of the personality they possess. It would be an interesting story to tell about people who struggle an inner battle between keeping and losing humanity (not restricted to humans).

We have seen that some who are affected by the taint can live a long life without becoming any of these, such as Ruck. He is affected, yes, but then he was lost for years and he still lives and is able to see himself for what he became.

Tamiel also preserves some of his past personality, he remembers... (I missed that unfortunately in my Dalish playthough. In the temple of the Sacred Urn he told me: we shall not meet again, and he was correct, we never met. Sniff sniff, I have to replay the Dalish origin just to get a way to meet him.)



I admit with my next playthrough(s) I am paying more attention to some lore related details and one interesting question is: how did the darkspawn get into the tower which was essential for the battle before the battle really started????



Loghain didn't want the beacon to be lit. He positioned some simple soldiers there and he was displeased about the beacon being lit. If it wasn't lit, then he could have simply march out saying, people failed to notify him when to attack. How convenient.



The battle barely started when we went there, and people rush to us saying: The darkspawn are already IN the tower while the battle down at the base of the walls just started. Everyone was lost as the how and why. Me too. How come the darkspawn only attacked that part and sneaked in. And instead of delivering an attack to the other units (opening a second front) they simply aimed to holding the tower. That was... suspicious.

It showed intelligence, no question. Strategics.



It might be very very far stretched, but maybe someone in the human encampment informed them? I am not even saying it was Loghain. But someone? That also suggests that the intelligent darkspawn (there is quite a lot of proof of their existence) can make plans, and even cooperate with untainted people. Now that is a very interesting thought there. What conclusions would come from such blasphemy?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lianaar wrote...

I am still definitely eager to learn what motivates the darkspawn.
Mostly if you can use them for your own means or not. If you can make pacts with them. Or what causes some to have intelligence or not.

I very highly doubt that you can use them for your own ends. They only seem to respond to the psychic "call" of an archdemon.

I admit with my next playthrough(s) I am paying more attention to some lore related details and one interesting question is: how did the darkspawn get into the tower which was essential for the battle before the battle really started????

Supposedly it had underground tunnels. Since the darkspawn come from underground, I could easily see the darkspawn digging through and reopening the paths to the Ostragar tower.

The battle barely started when we went there, and people rush to us saying: The darkspawn are already IN the tower while the battle down at the base of the walls just started. Everyone was lost as the how and why. Me too. How come the darkspawn only attacked that part and sneaked in. And instead of delivering an attack to the other units (opening a second front) they simply aimed to holding the tower. That was... suspicious.
It showed intelligence, no question. Strategics.

I suspect the attack on the tower was the work of the Archdemon. Archdemons are supposedly intelligent enough to direct the darkspawn horde, and this one in particular was smart enough to hide itself and let the humans think this wasn't a real blight, showing a very keen knowledge of human political systems in Ferelden; to say nothing of how it attacked the place with the least number of Grey Wardens. 

Given that, I think that the Archdemon realized that the enemy was going to use a signal on top of the tower to help coordinate themselves, so it sent a sizable force to move in and make sure that tower is never lit. Denying your enemy access to communications in such a way is always a good idea in war. Especially when you're basically a psychic hivemind  who drives your army forward on your will alone. I mean, talk to any military officer. Chances are that if you ask him the most important things in war, his response will include both "communications" and "logistics" near the top of the list.

It might be very very far stretched, but maybe someone in the human encampment informed them? I am not even saying it was Loghain. But someone? That also suggests that the intelligent darkspawn (there is quite a lot of proof of their existence) can make plans, and even cooperate with untainted people. Now that is a very interesting thought there. What conclusions would come from such blasphemy?

Who would cooperate with the darkspawn? What's the motive? I doubt even Loghain would collaborate with the most infamously evil species in Thedas. For that matter, how would one approach the darkspawn to negotiate? I very highly doubt they respond to a flag of truce. 

[Sabin Stargem]

I think the situation with the Tower was Loghain's plan, no darkspawn spies involved. I recall that when I first got to Ostagar, Loghain had scouts exploring the lower levels of the tower. Darkspawn are known for using underground tunnels and roads to get around, and I believe that Ostagar was crafted by dwarves. It doesn't take a genius to guess what would happen if nothing was done to place traps or to plug up the hole(s).

[Lianaar]

Now paying attention to the codex a few additions (just to have it in one place).

Genlock - (having dwarven origin)
- the most populated group in the darkspawns, short and strong, not vulnerable to magic
- alphas are the strongest, who convince or bully others to fight under their lead, they can become commanders
- emissaries, rare, usually during blights, they have the ability to cast magic (similar to blood magic)

Hurlocks- (human in origin)
- taller darkspawns, a berserker alone can cause massive damage in the opponent's group
- alphas convince or bully others to fight under their lead, they can become commanders or even generals
- emissaries, rare, usually during blights, powerful magicians, the only darkspawn recorded to have the ability of human talk

Oghres - (qunari in origin)
- huge beasts, not too smart
- barely ever seen outside of Blights, though there was a note of one who was seen on surface (weak and hurt) outside of Blight. Even in deep roads, they are rare, they are alone or in groups of about 3
- in Blights they can come in larger number, some armies contain up to 100 of them
- regeneration ability, they are to be burnt after 'death' to ensure no return

I didn't read the books, would someone give information on the Architect who did? I would appreciate that.

[Mithrennon]

Since I've been replaying the game again I've noticed a few things I didn't really pay attention the first time around about this. Two main points here...



The mage in the Wardens Keep says that the darkspawn taint is alien to demons and that it can be worked with and influenced by blood magic.



The other thing is Morrigan commenting on the fleshy things and corruption in the Tower of the Cirlce of Magi that is a sideeffect of the blood magic there, saying how it reminds her of the darkspawn taint.



To me that implies that darkspawn have their origin not in the Fade but in blood magic directly, one way or the other.

Maybe all that blood magic the Tevinter mages used accidently (or even intentionally, who knows...maybe they wanted a self-replicating army and it bit them in the behind) created the darkspawn, or that single one massive blood magic sacrifice they used to attempt to enter the Fade physically did. Who says they succeeded at entering at all?



That, or they did gain access to the Black City and whatever has its residence there (I doubt it's the "Maker". If there is anything there, it might be the final big bad for Dragon Age number *endoftheseries*). I remember reading that spirits (which includes demons) stay away from the Black City so either they're scared of what's there, or at least it explains why the taint would be unknown to them...



regards

Mithrennon