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What happened to "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate"?


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#1
Mad Method

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You know, back when the developers of Bioware were pitching DAO, they were talking about how they were "returning to their roots" and that they were making a "spiritual successor" to the Baldur's Gate series. They gave the impression about their franchises that: "For PC RPG gamers who want a classic RPG, we will have Dragon Age, and for all the more actiony RPG fans, we always have Mass Effect." So, a lot of old-timers and PC RPG gamers got interested in Dragon Age: Origins. And for the same reasons, a lot of us interested folk started to be disenchanted with the direction Dragon Age was taking before Origins was even released - when all of a sudden the action-heavy "This is the new shit" marketing popped up, the website was redesigned, and the logo, etc. was changed so that instead of this:

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It became this "edgy" blood spattered and grunge metal logo:

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Sure, changing the marketing angle and logo doesn't change the game itself, but it does gives some deep-seated misgivings to the notion that Bioware was going to make a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" instead of another "appeal to action fans" RPG game. Bioware claimed they were simply trying to appeal to a broader base out there - the game itself would be unchanged. Dragon Age: Origins came out, and for all the likes and dislikes out there, I think it's safe to say that it did not live up to the Baldur's Gate franchise, but overall people seemed to like that Bioware was at least trying.

Then Dragon Age 2 came up. All of a sudden Bioware was talking about how they wanted to "innovate" and "evolve" the genre and how they were trying to make it more "streamlined" and "responsive" and make it so that "when you press a button, something awesome has to happen." You would "fight like a spartan" and "think like a general." So what happened to "returning to Bioware's roots" and making a "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate"? Bioware kept talking about how they wanted to "expand beyond their core" but actually they were ignoring their core - the RPG gamers. Bioware just seemed to assume that their "core" was actually a bunch of "loyal fans" who would buy their latest Dragon Age game no matter what happened. Where they got that impression and ridiculous ego from I can guess - right here - these dumb boards, but the truth is that their "core" was in fact just RPG gamers who wanted a good PC RPG which was exactly that - an RPG. They were hardly guaranteed sales. And after a deluge of shitty addons and tie-ins to the Dragon Age franchise, a new focus on making the game a hell of a lot more action-oriented, and a random new art direction which seemed to favor unseemly angles and blank landscapes while keeping crappy textures, etc. with promises to get it all done in a little over a year, a lot of us RPG gamers decided "we'll wait on this one."

Bioware keeps claiming they're trying to innovate, but they seem to have forgotten, we were interested in Dragon Age because we were interested in Bioware returning to its roots. What happened? Right now they're on track to make their next Dragon Age game a bigger failure than the last, because those who bought this game anyway have been stung enough to avoid the next one, especially if they keep trying to make an RPG game for the non-RPG gamer who actively dislikes RPG mechanics.

This isn't an appeal for a response from Bioware. In the words of Albert Einstein, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." and Bioware appears insistent on exactly that. And I don't care for their spins, excuses, bullshit claims about how they'll make it good next time, and plain inability to directly admit this - not only the game, but the entire rationale behind it - was a poor failure. Frankly, if Bioware posts, I'd expect more nonsense like that. And that does nothing for me or the board. If they want to post, I'd rather they have something new and actually informative to say, and I don't expect that. So I'm asking you, the forum community, what you think, and I'm hoping for an intelligent discussion.

Modifié par Mad Method, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:31 .


#2
Anathemic

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EA bought out BioWare, that's what happened.

#3
Brockololly

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Well, Dan Tudge and Brent Knowles left BioWare and DA- thats when you started to see the whole "edgy" and "innovative" Marilyn Manson marketing campaign.

#4
Brockololly

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*double post*

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 juin 2011 - 12:17 .


#5
Mad Method

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The irony of Manson's "This is the new shit" song was that it's all about how that kind of edgy marketing and consumerism is retarded. Pay attention to the lyrics. As for EA buying out BioWare, what provoked them to make those decisions? They're plain bad ones. I'd assume a successful business (even a much maligned one like EA) would have people in there who know how to make smart decisions, and even from a business perspective, this wasn't.

#6
Anathemic

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Mad Method wrote...

The irony of Manson's "This is the new shit" song was that it's all about how that kind of edgy marketing and consumerism is retarded. Pay attention to the lyrics. As for EA buying out BioWare, what provoked them to make those decisions? They're plain bad ones. I'd assume a successful business (even a much maligned one like EA) would have people in there who know how to make smart decisions, and even from a business perspective, this wasn't.


EA isn't known for intelligence, considering their track record of buying out and destroying past studios in the past.

#7
Harid

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People still blame EA.

Fantastic naivety.

#8
Xewaka

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Question: What happened to "spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate"?
Answer: It was developed by german based studio Radon Labs, and its name is Drakensang.

Modifié par Xewaka, 18 juin 2011 - 12:49 .


#9
csfteeeer

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Xewaka wrote...

Question: What happened to "spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate"?
Answer: It was developed by german based studio Radon Labs, and its name is Drakensang.


Drakensang? are you kidding?

#10
Bejos_

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Mad Method ... I love that first logo. Much better than the second ...

Also, this is cruel ;) Why do you have to remind everyone?

#11
Mad Method

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Anathemic wrote...

Mad Method wrote...

The irony of Manson's "This is the new shit" song was that it's all about how that kind of edgy marketing and consumerism is retarded. Pay attention to the lyrics. As for EA buying out BioWare, what provoked them to make those decisions? They're plain bad ones. I'd assume a successful business (even a much maligned one like EA) would have people in there who know how to make smart decisions, and even from a business perspective, this wasn't.


EA isn't known for intelligence, considering their track record of buying out and destroying past studios in the past.

Aye, Westwood. Still doesn't explain this failed change in direction though. For those of you not in the know:

A Brief Rundown on Westwood

Westwood Studios aka Westwood Associates at first was a videogame developer started in 1985. They became famous for making some of the best RPGs of their time: Eye of the Beholder (1990) and Eye of the Beholder 2 (1991), which were based on 2nd Ed. AD&D rules. Later on, they became more famous for establishing the modern Real-Time Strategy format with Dune II and then the Command and Conquer RTS series.

Westwood went down very simply. First off, it merged with Virgin in 1992. Cool. Then EA bought it from Virgin in 1998. Many Westwood employees weren't willing to work under EA and quit. The rest of the employees continued developing games under EA. The games were managed with increasing oversight from EA who held them to tighter deadlines, forcing them to rush out content faster, which in turn forced them to cut more corners. When the games (Command & Conquer: Renegade in particular) failed to satisfy the customers or EA's projections, EA eventually shut down Westwood Studios and kept all their IPs in 2003.

Some of the former Westwood Studios employees went on to form Petroglyph Games. Some of them stuck with EA and became a part of EA LA.

Harid wrote...

People still blame EA. Fantastic naivety.

There's legitimacy to the notion that EA is at fault, but if you want to say "EA did it" then I ask "What made them do it?" Personally, I think Bioware is at fault either way since they accepted becoming a part of EA in the first place.

And honestly, I'm just looking for a good PC RPG, not necessarily a "successor to Baldur's Gate" - esp. since I'm not big on those AD&D rules. The RPG I've been looking forward to the most all year is actually Age of Decadence, a low fantasy indy RPG by Iron Tower Studio.

#12
Bejos_

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Age of Decadence looks to maybe be good. I'll be buying it.

Modifié par Bejos_, 18 juin 2011 - 03:33 .


#13
Sacred_Fantasy

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"Returning to root" and "spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate?"

Bah! It's all empty promises.

The only root to return to is classic arcade action adventure with meaningless stats. More likely "Spiritual successor of Super Mario Bros" or "Spiritual successor of Donkey Kong"

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 18 juin 2011 - 03:34 .


#14
Bejos_

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There really isn't a point to having stats in the DA series anymore. Instead of building on O, they scaled it back even more. Skill trees improved some, but quite literally every other aspect was downgraded.
They want the arcade crowd? Good for them. Had they not lied to those who wanted at least a nominal RPG experience, though.

#15
oldmansavage

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Age of decadence does look pretty sweet.  I'm looking forward to it.

#16
Mr.House

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DA2 was never meant to be a spiritual successor, DAO was.

#17
In Exile

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Probably the same thing that happened to the spiritual successor of KoTOR: Mass Effect. What Bioware thinks that word means and what you think that word means isn't the same thing.

#18
Meglort

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OP, from my perspective you stated the situation more or less how I see it as well.

My guess is that with the acquisition from EA, Bioware have had more impetous to move away from the niche PC RPG games they came into business creating to move more into a lowest common denominator, edgy action game company. This appeals more to elements within the GenY, Ritalin crowd who want something thematically different, but still basically point, shoot, click, think less to kill time.

Clearly from the comments being made by Bioware/EA executives, dismissing the discontent being shown by victims who purchased DA2 in good faith as just not coming on the journey and basically not seeing the forest for the trees, it will be other companies that focus on these kind of games that will replace Bioware in our game library moving forward.

The world changes and moves along, personally there are many games created by Bioware that I still play that have and still do enrich my recreational time, like DAO, BGII, ME1, etc., that are among my favourite games of all time on the PC.

Bioware just clearly do not want to be an actor in that movie any more, so time to move along...

#19
In Exile

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Bioware was never a niche RPG company. The fact they picked the popular P&P property in D&D instead of a good P&P property emphasizes that. Certainly the genre they worked in was relatively niche... but Bioware always wanted to be a AAA developer within their scope.
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#20
Bryy_Miller

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Harid wrote...

People still blame EA.

Fantastic naivety.


I agree with you, but in a completely different context.

#21
Bejos_

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I've stated this elsewhere, but for good measure:

I thought Bioware would eventually have a small (and small budget), in-house team who would make RPGs, while the majority of manpower went in the direction that Bioware has always, apparently, pursued.

DA2 and ME2 have disabused me of that notion. Any mechanics they lay on top of these games is going to be half-hearted at best.

#22
Persephone

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What happened to it?

It saw the Anomen "romance" in its inspiration and quit.

#23
Mr.House

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Persephone wrote...

What happened to it?

It saw the Anomen "romance" in its inspiration and quit.

:lol::lol::lol:

#24
oldmansavage

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The whole spiritual successor thing is out the window, hell DA:2 is hardly a sequal to DA:O.  DA:2 is more of a spiritual successor to Jade Empire.

#25
Jaldaric

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oldmansavage wrote...

The whole spiritual successor thing is out the window, hell DA:2 is hardly a sequal to DA:O.  DA:2 is more of a spiritual successor to Jade Empire.


Jade Empire was more of an RPG than DA2.

*stands up and claps the OP*

I agree, and with others. It went downhill as soon as EA came into the picture. Well, Bioware is EA now, basically EA Canada West.