273 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Imrahil_ wrote...

But, what you really, really need to understand is that there lots of "other people" that want to play DA:O types of games, despite its many flaws. DA2 took away everything those other people want to play, leaving them with nothing. 

It doesn't leave then with nothing, there are games from other companies.

[Imrahil_]

Morroian wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
But, what you really, really need to understand is that there lots of "other people" that want to play DA:O types of games, despite its many flaws. DA2 took away everything those other people want to play, leaving them with nothing. 

It doesn't leave then with nothing, there are games from other companies.

Such as?  If I'm missing out on (current) DA:O types of games from other companies, I'd love to know.  Tell me about them.

[Sutekh]

That's absurd. Retreating is a perfectly viable strategy when you're absolutely overwhelmed. The most recent blight lasted 20 years. Losing Ferelden means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Except that this time, they had a chance, no matter how small, to smother the Blight before it got too big and unmanageable. The 4th lasted this long because nothing was done until it was too late. Going to Orlais wouldn't have made a bit of difference (not mentioning the journey would've been a dangerous one too). If Ferelden had fallen, thousands and thousands of lives would've been lost directly or indirectly. The Blight affects the land too, "salting the earth", in a way, which means long term consequences.

Even with the slightest hope, some people would try, as long as there's a chance. If they fail, things don't change compared to what they would've been had they left. If they succeed, it's all good. It's really assessing priorities: the possibility to save thousands against... their own lives?

Of course, for this to work, you have to buy into being a hero and playing the Hero's Journey, which is what DAO is about. In many stories, said journey begins with a desperate situation and a little spark of hope.

You're talking about a realism that just doesn't fit. If the Warden had been given the option to basically say "Screw this, I'm going to Orlais", then the game would have ended right there.

David Gaidner pointed out that Duncan, had he lived, would have abandoned Ferelden.

What were the reasons given by Gaider for this possibility?

Do you think Dwarven or Dalish Wardens, pragmatic or not, give a damn about Ferelden?

That's entirely differnet way DA:O fails re: creating motivation.

See above for motivation. Saving thousands of lives, including their own kin's, seems quite a motivation to me. Saying "It's not my country / I don't have a country, so I don't care", on the other hand, seems incredibly short-sighted. When you're in a burning house and have a chance to put out the fire, whom the house belongs to is irrelevant.

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about that:

In Exile wrote...
The only way to play the Warden (I  Ferelden and I Grey Wardens) was a character I enjoyed the least.  It's the exact same way for the Warden re: certain views being not allowed.

[In Exile]

Imrahil_ wrote...
It sounds like you enjoy The Witcher style RPG's, or maybe a hybrid DA-ME game, which is what DA2 is. And that's fine. I enjoyed TW2. Great game. Everything you said you want, minus a constant, controllable party, which is an important point, to be sure.  I like having a party over not having a party as well, but otherwise TW2 is a great game with PC VO & no control of companion inventory.

TW2 doesn't let me customize apperance or gender, and those are two of the most significant pillars of customization for me. The predetermined character in TW2 makes it as far removed from my ideal game as the original Deus Ex.

The absence of party based combat makes it cements that.

The only thing TW2 has is the story structure I think a great RPG should have. That's it. I think it was outstanding in how it handled choice, and good-mediocre in everything else.

But, what you really, really need to understand is that there lots of "other people" that want to play DA:O types of games, despite its many flaws. DA2 took away everything those other people want to play, leaving them with nothing.  They now have *no game* at all that meets their desires.  You now have one more game that meets yours.

No, I don't. Don't presume to tell me what my tastes are.

Imagine if they'd taken DA2 & turned it into DA:O.  Some empathy towards those "other people" would go a long way towards helping you make your point.  Understand that there are now millions of game players with no game to play.

It would suck for me, and I would be dissapointed that it moved away from the game I wanted. I would likely still buy it. I would continue to advocate for the game that I want. And I would also continue not to care about the taste of other people.

If there are millions of people out there, they could go out and advocate for the game they want. I don't care for victims.

Imrahil_ wrote...
It'd have been nice if they put in a choice
at Lothering to seek out the Orlesian Wardens.  And then the game ends.

But
still, you could always roleplay it.  At the start of Lothering, you
could pretend you made that choice & shut your computer off.  Go for
it next time.  What's stopping you?

What are you talking about? The issue here is a design choice - specifically, being forced to play a particular kind of protagonist. DA:O forces you into it. So does DA:2. Saying that ''RP'' is about coming up with an excuse within the confines of the plot presented to you is essentially justifying the approach that Bioware took with DA:2, because that's exactly what they expected players to do - justify why they were doing what the story demanded without bothering to offer any kind of hook or justification. Let me give you an outline:

I mean, sure, that'd be a nice touch, & kind of funny.  But the
game would still end.  Cut to the Epilogue where Alistair kills the
Archdemon or something.  But the game would still end.  You have a dozen
choices at Lothering, & you want a baker's dozen with one that
would invalidate the whole game.  Do you also want the choice to abandon
Kirkwall in DA2?  Would you have preferred the movie Die Hard if John
McClain had left the building ASAP to get the cops?  Lord of the Rings
if Frodo had just buggered off instead?  Tomb Raider if Lara Croft had
been like "f this, I'm just gonna hire some mercenaries!"?

It has nothing to do with wanting choice. It has everything to do with well-designed RP options.

DA:O starts by letting you select your background. Say you pick a human noble and design your character: you're a dutiful son that was trained in martial combat by your father, but are the bookish suit and your pesonality is not suited for war. Your father is leaving with your brother for Ostagar, and you're relieved to be left in charge of the castle. Your true talent is intellect. You'd be a far better ruler than commander.

Suddenly, at night, the castle is under siege: Arl Howe betrayed your father! You escape the ravaged and burning remains of your castle with your mother, where you find your father dying.

There, a Grey Warden refuses to allow you and your mother to escape. You plead with him, but all he cares about is his order. He forcibly recruits you into his order and effectively kidnaps you for a recruit.

Outmatched by the ruthless and heartless old man, you go along with him to Ostagar, hoping to find your brother. You humour your kidnapper and perform a task for him, while waiting for Fergus to return. Then, the Joining: the old man is not just a kidnapper, he's insane. He murders a man in cold blood in front of you and threatens to execute you if you don't drink a horrible and magical poison.

Alone and sorrounded, you have no choice but to listen to this kidnapper.

Then, Ostagar and you end up at the Flemeth's hut. You find out the kingdom was routed, Loghain betrayed King Cailan. Being smart, you add 2+2 toghether and figure out that Arl Howe was likely working with Loghain (your father would never have stood for such treason). You fear all is lost: Ferelden is in the hands of a murderer, your brother is likely dead, and the darkspawn are ravaging. The only slight satisfaction you have is that the bastard who kidnapped you is dead.

Suddenly, you have a crazy old witch present an unlikely and absurd plan.

What in-character reason is there to go along with this?

The entire issue is about being forced to into a role in DA2. DA:O does it just as much.

[In Exile]

Sutekh wrote...
Except that this time, they had a chance, no matter how small, to smother the Blight before it got too big and unmanageable. The 4th lasted this long because nothing was done until it was too late. Going to Orlais wouldn't have made a bit of difference (not mentioning the journey would've been a dangerous one too). If Ferelden had fallen, thousands and thousands of lives would've been lost directly or indirectly. The Blight affects the land too, "salting the earth", in a way, which means long term consequences.

How small matters very much if you're not unhinged. If you have a character that isn't suicidal, there's absolutely no reason to embark on this quest. There's a difference between a danger (re: survival) and a danger re: survival plus being told to go **** yourself.

To say that a character who thinks this has delusions of grandeur is an understatement.

Even with the slightest hope, some people would try, as long as there's a chance. If they fail, things don't change compared to what they would've been had they left. If they succeed, it's all good. It's really assessing priorities: the possibility to save thousands against... their own lives?

It's about none of that. It's about making a hard choice: sacrificing Ferelden to rally Orlais and the Grey Wardens. Ferelden is doomed to infighting. The Blight is rampaging and threatening all of Thedas. It takes an incredibly arrogant and narcisistic figure to put the survival off all the realms aside for a vain quest.

As far as you know, if you fail, no one knows about the Fereldan blight. And it will grow and devour more kingdoms.

Of course, for this to work, you have to buy into being a hero and playing the Hero's Journey, which is what DAO is about. In many stories, said journey begins with a desperate situation and a little spark of hope.

You're talking about a realism that just doesn't fit. If the Warden had been given the option to basically say "Screw this, I'm going to Orlais", then the game would have ended right there.

You're getting it wrong. It's not about being willing to undertake being a hero. The game has to give you a motive. If it's going to restrict you into doing something, it has to tell you why it restricts you into doing it.

DA:O is about a new Warden recruit who saves the country instead of a Warden recruit who abandons Ferelden to rally Orlais, so that's what DA:O is about. But it's railroading, because the game demands (and doesn't tell you ahead of time) that suddenly you're supposed to have this heroic love for Ferelden, this unspeakable bond to the Grey Warden order, and this idealistic vision against the Blight.

It's all horrid design, and it's why we ended up with the mess that is DA2's plot.

What were the reasons given by Gaider for this possibility?

Duncan knows what will actually end the Blight: Grey Wardens striking the killing blow against the archdemon. Alistair, Duncan + the Warden (say) would be too few. The pragmatic choice is to get more Wardens and find a way to corner the archdemon. Strategically, Duncan would consider Ferelden a lost cause (fragment via Loghain's betrayal).

See above for motivation. Saving thousands of lives, including their own kin's, seems quite a motivation to me. Saying "It's not my country / I don't have a country, so I don't care", on the other hand, seems incredibly short-sighted. When you're in a burning house and have a chance to put out the fire, whom the house belongs to is irrelevant.

When you're in a burning house and someone gave you a map to a 60 year old hose, what you should do is punch the lunatic and call 911.

I'm talking about that:

You already said: you need a Warden who wants to be a hero, who wants to save millions of lives, etc. i.e. I <3 Ferelden, and I <3 Wardens. If you really want to get into it, I can go back and quote the statements you make that entail this.

[Morroian]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
But, what you really, really need to understand is that there lots of "other people" that want to play DA:O types of games, despite its many flaws. DA2 took away everything those other people want to play, leaving them with nothing. 

It doesn't leave then with nothing, there are games from other companies.

Such as?  If I'm missing out on (current) DA:O types of games from other companies, I'd love to know.  Tell me about them.

Drakensang.

[Tirfan]

Morroian wrote...

Blastback wrote...

In Exile wrote...

But the things that let you RP are things that prevent me from RPing. I would say things like PC VO and restricted inventory for companions make it a better RPG for me, not a worse one.

What I hoped for was that Mass Effect and whatever comes after it would be tailored towards the style of role playing you enjoy, while Dragon Age would remain more of an old school style.  Have diffrent brands to appeal to diffrent styles of play and taste. 

Not really, my role playing style is in line with In Exile's and I found the ME2 role playing to be far too shallow, definitely more shallow than DA2 and mostly unsatisfying.

How exactly is ME2 rp more shallow than DA2?
You got a choice if you are a generally nice or a dick, you get a choice if you are a human supremacist or not vs. you get a choice if you are are a generally nice (which does not make any sense considering how Hawke is a sociopathic mass murderer) or a dick. you get a choice if you are pro-templar or pro-mage, you okay, get a choice wheher you are pro-slavery or anti-slavery, but this matters in something like 3 quests..

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...
It's about none of that. It's about making a hard choice: sacrificing Ferelden to rally Orlais and the Grey Wardens. Ferelden is doomed to infighting. The Blight is rampaging and threatening all of Thedas. It takes an incredibly arrogant and narcisistic figure to put the survival off all the realms aside for a vain quest. 

As far as you know, if you fail, no one knows about the Fereldan blight. And it will grow and devour more kingdoms.

At what point in the game?  You learn very early (right after the joining) that King Cailin has already requested reinforcements from Orlais.  Later on, Riordan tells you the Orlesian reinforcements were turned away at the border by Loghain - and that nobody is willing to try to help with the blight when Ferelden is in civil war.

Even without any communication from Cailin, it is not inconceivable to think that all of the Wardens in Thedas would know of the blight in Ferelden, since they are connected to the darkspawn, and some of the older Wardens are able to understand the archdemon.

Your only options are to try to rally Ferelden to unite against the blight and unseat Loghain, or simply flee and allow the blight (and Loghain) to consume Ferelden - and as you say, grow and devour more kingdoms.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 29 juin 2011 - 03:30 .

[Imrahil_]

In Exile wrote...

But, what you really, really need to understand is that there lots of "other people" that want to play DA:O types of games, despite its many flaws. DA2 took away everything those other people want to play, leaving them with nothing.  They now have *no game* at all that meets their desires.  You now have one more game that meets yours.

No, I don't. Don't presume to tell me what my tastes are.

Imagine if they'd taken DA2 & turned it into DA:O.  Some empathy towards those "other people" would go a long way towards helping you make your point.  Understand that there are now millions of game players with no game to play.

It would suck for me, and I would be dissapointed that it moved away from the game I wanted.

You seem to be arguing wih yourself here.   First I'm not to presume that DA2 was a game you wanted/desired.  Then *in your very next sentence* you tell me that DA2 was a game you wanted/desired.  Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

If there are millions of people out there, they could go out and advocate for the game they want. I don't care for victims.

What do you think is happening right now?  Are we just engaging in a philosophical discussion with no basis in reality?  Or are you right now in a thread where people are advocating for the game they want just as you say they should?

Imrahil_ wrote...
It'd have been nice if they put in a choice at Lothering to seek out the Orlesian Wardens.  And then the game ends.

But still, you could always roleplay it.  At the start of Lothering, you could pretend you made that choice & shut your computer off.  Go for it next time.  What's stopping you?

What are you talking about? The issue here is a design choice - specifically, being forced to play a particular kind of protagonist.

No, that's not the issue here.  You said you wanted the option to leave Fereldan & go to Orlais instead.  Now read my reply that you quoted.  Don't read anything into it.  Just read what I wrote as a reply to your desire to run away to Orlais.
 

It has nothing to do with wanting choice. It has everything to do with well-designed RP options.

*Human Noble role-playing snipped*

Suddenly, you have a crazy old witch present an unlikely and absurd plan.

What in-character reason is there to go along with this?

There isn't one.  Like I said, pretend you went to Orlais & turn off your computer.  It'd be great if they includedd a dialogue choice, like "Screw this!  I'm going to Orlais!"  And your journey ends...  That'd be a nice, humorous touch, but you can't seriously be complaining that they didn't *actually* include Orlais (or a dozen other places) on the map for you to run off to?  I thought you didn't care for victims?

[Imrahil_]

Morroian wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
Such as?  If I'm missing out on (current) DA:O types of games from other companies, I'd love to know.  Tell me about them.

Drakensang.

That was a pretty good game.  Unfortunately I already beat it a couple of times.  My last save file appears to have a date of 10/28/2009.  Right before Origins came out.  What an odd coicidence.

[aliswann10]

Months later people are still whining and complaining? This was old months ago.

[xkg]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
Such as?  If I'm missing out on (current) DA:O types of games from other companies, I'd love to know.  Tell me about them.

Drakensang.

That was a pretty good game.  Unfortunately I already beat it a couple of times.  My last save file appears to have a date of 10/28/2009.  Right before Origins came out.  What an odd coicidence.

There is a sequel "Drakensang: The River of Time". Give it a try - it is much better than the first one.

[Gotholhorakh]

xkg wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
Such as?  If I'm missing out on (current) DA:O types of games from other companies, I'd love to know.  Tell me about them.

Drakensang.

That was a pretty good game.  Unfortunately I already beat it a couple of times.  My last save file appears to have a date of 10/28/2009.  Right before Origins came out.  What an odd coicidence.

There is a sequel "Drakensang: The River of Time". Give it a try - it is much better than the first one.

Ah - now this is something I've heard mentioned, meant to play sometime, but not played - thanks for the reminder.


(stalks off to find demos)

[nicethugbert]

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 juin 2011 - 06:24 .

[xkg]

nicethugbert wrote...

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Baldur's Gate had very good graphics for its time. And magicka is an Action-Adventure game not RPG so i can't see any point here.

The mechanics would be Complicated ? Clunky ?   UNDOCUMENTED ???? Was it like that in Baldur's Gate ? It was D&D rules set. No comments.

Modifié par xkg, 29 juin 2011 - 06:37 .

[Tirfan]

nicethugbert wrote...

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Umm, have you even played BG? Do you know what this thing called AD&D is?

But, well, you gave me my laughs of the day with complicated, clunky and undocumented mechanics.

[Funkjoker]

I don't understand how anyone can recommend games like Drakensang - we are talking here about dark and mature fantasy games, not games that are so bright your eyes ought to hurt - and are obviously not for some older audience.

The only "mature" fantasyRPGs I know atm are Witcher and DAO.

Btw, OP, you are right.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 29 juin 2011 - 07:37 .

[xkg]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

I don't understand how anyone can recommend games like Drakensang - we are talking here about dark and mature fantasy games, not games that are so bright your eyes ought to hurt - and are obviously not for some older audience.

The only "mature" fantasyRPGs I know atm are Witcher and DAO.

Btw, OP, you are right.

You see ? Sh!t happens. It was me who recommended Drakensang and it is very good RPG for me.
You can't understand ? Your problem not mine.

[Realmzmaster]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

I don't understand how anyone can recommend games like Drakensang - we are talking here about dark and mature fantasy games, not games that are so bright your eyes ought to hurt - and are obviously not for some older audience.

The only "mature" fantasyRPGs I know atm are Witcher and DAO.

Btw, OP, you are right.

So you are saying that every CRPG for older audience must be dark and mature? What do you mean by dark and mature?

[Sutekh]

In Exile wrote...
How small matters very much if you're not unhinged. If you have a character that isn't suicidal, there's absolutely no reason to embark on this quest. There's a difference between a danger (re: survival) and a danger re: survival plus being told to go **** yourself.

To say that a character who thinks this has delusions of grandeur is an understatement.

In this type of stories, being slightly insane and delusional, or very confident in your own abilities, or desperately optimistic, is a must. It's a trope running as far back as Homer. Odysseus (yes, the very pragmatic Odysseus), Hercules, Perseus, Roland de Roncevaux, D'Artagnan, Siegfried, Paul Atreides, Frodo and co, Elric of Melniboné (and other Eternal Champions as well)... all those guys went on against tremendous odds when more pragmatic solutions would have been "saner".

In the Warden's case, there is a valid reasoning. You might find it insane, suicidal and delusional, but it is a valid one:

- You decide to keep fighting despite the odds and have a chance to set things right, even if sacrifice is included in the package.

- You decide to wisely retreat, which, in this case, doesn't make a difference. Whether you retreat and survive (which is not a given. The road to Orlais could be littered with darkspawn and bounty hunters as far as you know), become a baker in Lothering or simply kill yourself on the spot will change nothing. Two more Wardens in Orlais, especially very green ones, don't change anything re: chances to beat the Blight later on, once Ferelden has fallen and darkspawn are much, much more comfortable and powerful.

It's about none of that. It's about making a hard choice: sacrificing Ferelden to rally Orlais and the Grey Wardens. Ferelden is doomed to infighting. The Blight is rampaging and threatening all of Thedas. It takes an incredibly arrogant and narcisistic figure to put the survival off all the realms aside for a vain quest.

See above re: the usefulness of two junior Wardens rallying Orlais and usual qualities of this type of heroes. The Blight threatening all of Thedas is the very motivation: better kill it in its infancy, before it's uncontrollable and actually spread outside Ferelden.

As far as you know, if you fail, no one knows about the Fereldan blight. And it will grow and devour more kingdoms.

That's not true. The decision to carry on with the treaties is made in Lothering. It's made clear during the War Council, which you attend, that Orlais knows about the possibility of a Blight. So, again, worst case scenario: if you fail, there will always be Orlais (and now I have a Casablanca flashback).

You're getting it wrong. It's not about being willing to undertake being a hero. The game has to give you a motive. If it's going to restrict you into doing something, it has to tell you why it restricts you into doing it.

DA:O is about a new Warden recruit who saves the country instead of a Warden recruit who abandons Ferelden to rally Orlais, so that's what DA:O is about. But it's railroading, because the game demands (and doesn't tell you ahead of time) that suddenly you're supposed to have this heroic love for Ferelden, this unspeakable bond to the Grey Warden order, and this idealistic vision against the Blight.

It's all horrid design, and it's why we ended up with the mess that is DA2's plot.

If it had been a book or a movie, or a fixed character with a fixed backstory, would you have said it was railroading and horrid design? It's a game, but with limited technology. There has to be railroading at some point. How do you want a binary-based system to address all the possible motivations that would have been valid for the legions of players? You have to impose something at some point to get things started. What seems valid to you might very well be totally invalid to me.

Or do you want the game to throw us in the fray without the slightest explanation apart from "make your own reasons, we can't be bothered"?

Plus, there is only one motivation: saving thousands of life; You can do so without loving Ferelden or the Grey Wardens:

You fight for Ferelden because the Blight incidentally happens in Ferelden, not because you care about Ferelden. You unite Ferelden because you need it united to fight the Blight. Why? Because the Blight starts in Ferelden. Which is where you are.

You are a Grey Warden, which gives you an edge against darkspawn. Why you are one depends on your origin. Whether you're happy about that or not is irrelevant (you have the opportunity to state your "non-love" of the Wardens Order many times through dialogue).

The only place where your love of the Wardens is imposed is during the fade. And yes, that was bad writing (or it could be demons being very, very bad at basic psychology as they've proven to be, e.g. Morrigan's dream).

When you're in a burning house and someone gave you a map to a 60 year old hose, what you should do is punch the lunatic and call 911.

Only in this case, you don't have a phone and the nearest firestation is 300 kilometers away, at the end of a very dangerous road. So what do you do? Go fetch the firemen - with a good risk of never reaching the firestation - and leave the people in the house die an horrible death and allow the fire to spread and kill more people? (Plus, that wasn't the point of the analogy). 

You already said: you need a Warden who wants to be a hero, who wants to save millions of lives, etc. i.e. I <3 Ferelden, and I <3 Wardens. If you really want to get into it, I can go back and quote the statements you make that entail this.

Yes you do, because it's how these stories work. Loving Ferelden and the Wardens is not part of the equation. Being a certain type of hero is. If you don't buy this as ultimate motivation, then this type of stories is not for you.

Honestly, when you bought the game and started it, wasn't it obvious that it would be like that? Let's look at how the game is sold:

You are a Grey Warden, one of the last of a legendary order of guardians. With the return of an ancient foe and the kingdom engulfed in civil war, you have been chosen by fate to unite the shattered lands and slay the archdemon once and for all.

There are several keywords here that scream "Epic Hero's Journey ahoy!" Fate in particular. It sets the rules and gives you a clear warning. If you choose to ignore them, if it clashes with your idea of possible motivation and character, you only have yourself to blame.

I'm not saying writing was perfect and spotless, but it's not "horrid railroading". Far from it.

[Gotholhorakh]

Sutekh wrote...

When you're in a burning house and someone gave you a map to a 60 year old hose, what you should do is punch the lunatic and call 911.

Only in this case, you don't have a phone and the nearest firestation is 300 kilometers away, at the end of a very dangerous road. So what do you do? Go fetch the firemen - with a good risk of never reaching the firestation - and leave the people in the house die an horrible death and allow the fire to spread and kill more people? (Plus, that wasn't the point of the analogy). 

Indeed, and more to the point, you are the fire brigade, and you're already on the scene.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 29 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[Morroian]

nicethugbert wrote...

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Dunno about that, I like the ideas behind Magicka, the reality is that its just too much of a clickfest.

[nicethugbert]

Tirfan wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Umm, have you even played BG? Do you know what this thing called AD&D is?

But, well, you gave me my laughs of the day with complicated, clunky and undocumented mechanics.

Yes, I have it on this PC right now.  I have played it and I was not impressed.  I didn't get very far into it.  I've seen youtube vids of the game further in and the audio is great, very action oriented.  In that sense better than most/many modern games.

[nicethugbert]

xkg wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Exactly how would a game made in the spirit of Baldur's Gate look like? I don't think it would be something of the highest quality. The graphics would suck. The writting in Baldur's Gate is not the best. It is stilted to fit the low graphical quality. The mechanics would be complicated and clunky and largely undocumented.

If you were to improve on it, it's successor would be something like Magicka

Baldur's Gate had very good graphics for its time. And magicka is an Action-Adventure game not RPG so i can't see any point here.

The mechanics would be Complicated ? Clunky ?   UNDOCUMENTED ???? Was it like that in Baldur's Gate ? It was D&D rules set. No comments.

So, I'd have to buy the D&D rules in order to learn how to play the game?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Makes you wonder how anyone played the original Baldur's Gate games if you had to "buy the D&D rules in order to learn how to play the game"

Oh wait...

But I was not a fan of 2nd edition D&D, to be honest. I actually don't want a PnP system like D&D in RPGs simply because it's bloated and not designed for (video)games. Either that, or the designers ought to design a game that takes advantage of the ruleset to it's fullest. There were similar issues with Bloodlines and it's ruleset.

DA:O was not too bad in this respect, though it could've been better. I've yet to seen an all encompassing ruleset that's as powerful and as simple as SPECIAL, though. And yes, it is simple.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 30 juin 2011 - 02:15 .