[quote]Sutekh wrote...
In this type of stories, being slightly insane and delusional, or very confident in your own abilities, or desperately optimistic, is a must. It's a trope running as far back as Homer. Odysseus (yes, the very pragmatic Odysseus), Hercules, Perseus, Roland de Roncevaux, D'Artagnan, Siegfried, Paul Atreides, Frodo and co, Elric of Melniboné (and other Eternal Champions as well)... all those guys went on against tremendous odds when more pragmatic solutions would have been "saner". [/quote]
Well, no. It's not a must. Bioware games have always allowed for PC's to avoid these kinds of thoughts. JE gives you multiple reasons to go on the main quest: finding your master, revenge, continuing your quest. KoTOR starts you off on the mission (working for the republic).
DA:O does none of these things: it starts you off in the background.
[quote]In the Warden's case, there is a valid reasoning. You might find it insane, suicidal and delusional, but it is a valid one:
- You decide to keep fighting despite the odds and have a chance to set things right, even if sacrifice is included in the package.[/quote]
Which is not in character. Again, you seem to be arguing with me as if I think the option should be there, instead of on a design level, which is about DA2 forcing you to RP a certain character, and DA:O forcing you to RP a certain character.
[quote]- You decide to wisely retreat, which, in this case, doesn't make a difference. Whether you retreat and survive (which is not a given. The road to Orlais could be littered with darkspawn and bounty hunters as far as you know), become a baker in Lothering or simply kill yourself on the spot will change nothing. Two more Wardens in Orlais, especially very green ones, don't change anything re: chances to beat the Blight later on, once Ferelden has fallen and darkspawn are much, much more comfortable and powerful. [/quote]
This involves lots of silly assumptions: (1) that the darkspawn would actually rest and fortify instead of move on. (2) that I would bother going back to Ferelden. (3) That I think this involves less risk than the original insane plan.
The best example is that you say that if I die it changes nothing: well. I can say the same - if I stay in Ferelden it changes nothing, but the chance of using these 500 year old treaties is far less than getting Wardens.
Again, the point is that DA:O demands you do a certain thing with a certian character. Just like DA2.
[quote]See above re: the usefulness of two junior Wardens rallying Orlais and usual qualities of this type of heroes. The Blight threatening all of Thedas is the very motivation: better kill it in its infancy, before it's uncontrollable and actually spread outside Ferelden.[/quote]
Well, no. The Blight isn't in its infancy. It just devastated the army of Ferelden. Ran through them like they were nothing, and massacred the survivors. There's no reason to believe the blight is easy to defeat or that these other places would provide enough men or materias or know-how.
Again, the point isn't that you're wrong: it's that there are other ways to think. Just like DA2.
[quote]That's not true. The decision to carry on with the treaties is made in Lothering. It's made clear during the War Council, which you attend, that Orlais knows about the possibility of a Blight. So, again, worst case scenario: if you fail, there will always be Orlais (and now I have a Casablanca flashback).[/quote]
It's not made clear: Cailain doesn't want to wait for Wardens from Orlais as reinforcement. Those Wardens might know, but Alistair makes the point that Loghain might turn them back or otherwise cancel plans. You have perfectly good (and it turns out, totally justified!) reasons to believe that Loghain will refuse these Grey Wardens at the border.
[quote]DA:O is about a new Warden recruit who saves the country instead of a Warden recruit who abandons Ferelden to rally Orlais, so that's what DA:O is about. But it's railroading, because the game demands (and doesn't tell you ahead of time) that suddenly you're supposed to have this heroic love for Ferelden, this unspeakable bond to the Grey Warden order, and this idealistic vision against the Blight. [/quote]
DA:O is about your origin (as far as you know). Saying this is like saying your only goal in DA2 should be that you want to rise to power by any means neccesary, so then caring about things like the mage vs. templar conflict or Hawke's inaction in Act I - Act III is pointless, because DA2 is about how Hawke became champion.
Again, you're not seeing the issue with Bioware's design.
[quote]If it had been a book or a movie, or a fixed character with a fixed backstory, would you have said it was railroading and horrid design? It's a game, but with limited technology. There has to be railroading at some point. How do you want a binary-based system to address all the possible motivations that would have been valid for the legions of players? You have to impose something at some point to get things started. What seems valid to you might very well be totally invalid to me.[/quote]
If it was a book or movie, there would be no input from me (unless I had a pen & paper and was writing/directing) in which case it would have 100% input from me and could be anything I wanted.
More generally: there is notbing wrong with railroading. It's neccesary. But there are ways to hedge you in and force you to do something, and ways the game just expects you to make up reasons from A:B. That's the problem with Bioware's design (and my whole point at the start was that Bioware was railroading you).
So if you want to admit that they're doing this, great! I'm right, and we can move on, because the only reason I gave this example was to demonstrate how you're railroaded in DA:O.
[quote]Plus, there is only one motivation: saving thousands of life; You can do so without loving Ferelden or the Grey Wardens:[/quote]
Actually, no. The game doesn't allow you to follow through on this, because it forces you repeatedly into I <3 Grey Warden dialogue. That's actually the reason I ran with in DA:O, but the game fought me at every turn. And DA:A outright tells you to go **** yourself with this motive.
[quote]You are a Grey Warden, which gives you an edge against darkspawn. Why you are one depends on your origin. Whether you're happy about that or not is irrelevant (you have the opportunity to state your "non-love" of the Wardens Order many times through dialogue). [/quote]
You are magically altered through the taint. You aren't a Grey Warden. Your origin is your life. Unless you come with a reason to change your identity, the game doesn't give you on
[quote]The only place where your love of the Wardens is imposed is during the fade. And yes, that was bad writing (or it could be demons being very, very bad at basic psychology as they've proven to be, e.g. Morrigan's dream). [/quote]
Your dialogue doesn't let you react to the fact you don't want this (i.e. **** the Wardens). It's all, the blight isn't over, my mission goes on! So bad writing. But more generally, you have the discussions with Wynne when she asks you what being a Grey Warden means to you and you can't correct her.
[quote]Only in this case, you don't have a phone and the nearest firestation is 300 kilometers away, at the end of a very dangerous road. So what do you do? Go fetch the firemen - with a good risk of never reaching the firestation - and leave the people in the house die an horrible death and allow the fire to spread and kill more people? (Plus, that wasn't the point of the analogy). [/quote]
Someone already addressed that for me.
[quote]Yes you do, because it's how these stories work. Loving Ferelden and the Wardens is not part of the equation. Being a certain type of hero is. If you don't buy this as ultimate motivation, then this type of stories is not for you.
Honestly, when you bought the game and started it, wasn't it obvious that it would be like that? Let's look at how the game is sold:[/quote]
I followed the agme for 4 years when it developed. Bioware promised many things: our origins would tie in seamlessly with the main quest, we could design characters that didn't want to be Wardens and the game would 100% support that choice, we'd have a personal nemesis Iunique to each origin!) that would motivate us to stay in Ferelden and fight the blight, and the nemsis would give way to unovering the real antagonist.
I thought I was playing the game I was promised.
But let's ignore that. The origins matter, and not being a certain type of hero matters, because Bioware making these demands on you is what directly leads to DA2.
[quote]You are a Grey Warden, one of the last of a legendary order of guardians. With the return of an ancient foe and the kingdom engulfed in civil war, you have been chosen by fate to unite the shattered lands and slay the archdemon once and for all.[/quote]
We're going off marketing promos for what our role should be in an RPG? DA2 talks about "Rise to power by any means neccesary" and "your family" so it does the same thing as DA:O tells you want you need to care about. Except we all agree the design is ****. Giving Bioware a pass for their crap design is what led to DA2.
But fine, defend that sort of writing if you want.
[quote]I'm not saying writing was perfect and spotless, but it's not "horrid railroading". Far from it.[/quote]
It's clear railroading. Even if you're right, you're being railroaded into the role of the hero you've wasted so much time trying to describe to be is neccesary for this sort of game.
But you're not right, because of the extent to which Bioware hedges against you but pretends to allow you freedom. Just like DA2.
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Ferelden and I 
