143 réponses à ce sujet

[Brwarner]

Zanallen wrote...

Well, let us examine the definition of the word "Innovative".

1. the introduction of something new
2. a new idea, method, or device : novelty

Now let us examine the context of the statement. I doubt that Muzyka was referring to video games as a whole or even just RPGs. So let's assume he was referring to Bioware games.

New to Bioware games: Friendship/Rivalry system as a revamp of the approval/disapproval system from Origins, the intent/tone icons, the personality system affecting dialogue, the static companion appearance with limited stat customization, cross-class combos, physical force in combat and, I believe, the framed narrative.

If we go with new to DA, we can also include the voiced protagonist as well as the fixed protagonist background.

All of these things are innovations depending on context. Remember, the word innovation has nothing to do with how well implemented said innovations were or if you like the innovations.

I think the better phrasing would be "we tried something different." Now it's time to look at what was different, and figure out what worked - and what didn't.
I look forward to seeing the results.

[Zanallen]

Brwarner wrote...

I think the better phrasing would be "we tried something different." Now it's time to look at what was different, and figure out what worked - and what didn't.
I look forward to seeing the results.

True, but trying something different is, by definition, innovation.

[ScotGaymer]

Yeh I just read that interview by Ray Muzukya and I have to say...

Bioware need to stop letting him out. Or at least get him a better PR agent because his PR speak is just idiotic.

Dragon Age 2 is NOT innovative in the least. It is not. There is nothing "new" in Dragon Age 2, all the so called "innovative" things in it are stuff/ideas taken from other games, other genres etc.
That isnt Innovation.

Innovation is trying something NEW, not something different.

Please dont take this is bashing the game. I like the game on the whole, its just innovative is not a word that fits Dragon Age 2.

It's like when he declared Commander Shepard was a pre-defined character. I totally facepalmed.

Yikes.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 19 juin 2011 - 12:01 .

[Brwarner]

Zanallen wrote...

Brwarner wrote...

I think the better phrasing would be "we tried something different." Now it's time to look at what was different, and figure out what worked - and what didn't.
I look forward to seeing the results.

True, but trying something different is, by definition, innovation.

Lol yes, strictly speaking, but innovation has a very positive connatation - sort of.... outside the box, new, and interesting. I don't think that applies to a chunk of the changes they were talking about. Except for the core story idea (as I mentioned earlier).

[Zanallen]

wastelander75 wrote...

I would genuinely appreciate a Dev or a DA team member to come in when they have the time and actually list what the the game's innovations were. Really. I would.

I doubt that would actually satisfy you. You aren't using the same context for the innovation. You seem to think they are referring to innovation in terms of RPGs or even video games as a whole. I feel that the context is in terms of Bioware games or even within the Dragon Age franchise.

Modifié par Zanallen, 19 juin 2011 - 01:47 .

[Yrkoon]

Even in terms of just bioware games, there's virtually NIL innovation with DA2:

-Voiced, Named, protagonist? Nope. ME did that previously.
-Recycled Maps to save money/development time? Nope. They did that before too.
-Cross class combos? Nope. DA:O had shattering
-Friendship/Rivalry System? Nope. That's not *new*, they just took the old approval/disapproval system and refined it.
- Framed Narrative? Nope. Lelianna's Song was a framed Narrative.

There's nothing there. And people need to stop diluting the word "innovation" just so that every change from the original = innovation. It doesn't.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2011 - 02:02 .

[Ianamus]

I think that DA:2 was quite innovative. I personally liked the friendship/rivalry system, having a family who matched your looks, personality tracking, and the more personal storyline.

The problem, I feel, is that Bioware says that the games failings were due to it's 'innovative design' when in fact these new features were quite good.

The game's failings (enemies visibly spawning from nowhere, the bugs, all caves look the same, area's static) had little to do with the new features, and were things that could have easily been avoided, with or without the 'innovative features'.
Even the repetetive areas could have been avoided by simply making more areas in Kirkwall, making the dungeons noticeably different and making the areas actually change over the years.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Even in terms of just bioware games, there's virtually NIL innovation with DA2:

-Voiced, Named, protagonist? Nope. ME did that previously.
-Recycled Maps? Nope. They did that before too.
-Cross class combos? Nope. DA:O had shattering
-Friendship/Ribalry System. Nope. That's not *new*, they just took the old approval/disapproval system and refined it.
- Framed Narrative? Nope. Lelianna's Song was a framed Narrative.

There's nothing there. And people need to stop diluting the word "innovation" so that every change from the original = innovation. It doesn't.

Did anyone say the recycled maps were an innovation? No. Don't be absurd.

Innovations in DA2:

- The dynamic personality system where your choices in conversations color flavor dialogue and the way Hawke says certain lines.
- The friendship/rivalry system is innovative as it is an improvement on the approval/disapproval system.
- Cross-class Combos are not mage spell combos. They are an improvement on the system and are innovative in their role in combat.
- The tone/intent icons are also an innovation.
- Same with the static outfits for companions that still allow for upgrades and stat alteration.
- Hawke's family changing to match your Hawke.

And the word innovation simply means "the introduction of something new". It has nothing to do with quality or implementation.

Modifié par Zanallen, 19 juin 2011 - 02:05 .

[Yrkoon]

Zanallen wrote...
Innovations in DA2:

- The dynamic personality system where your choices in conversations color flavor dialogue and the way Hawke says certain lines.

Hmm...  Nope.   that's not new at all.  DA:O  had Hardened and Unhardened Alistair and Lelianna, who's personality and dialogues change depending on whether you chose to harden them.

- The friendship/rivalry system is innovative as it is an improvement on the approval/disapproval system.

Begging your pardon?   Weren't you the one who posted the dictionary definition of innovation for us just a few posts ago??    Yeah,  that was you.  Please point me to to the part of the definition where it says  "taking something that already exists and improving on it.

- Cross-class Combos are not mage spell combos.

I didn't cite  a mage spell combo.  I cited a cross class combo.  Shattering to be exact  - Which involves your mage freezing an opponent, and your warrior or rogue shattering them with a critical hit.  This isn't  any different than, say, Stagger combos in DA2, where your warrior staggers a foe, then your mage electrocutes them with a lightning spell for triple damage.  So no, there's no innovation here.  At all.

- The tone/intent icons are also an innovation.

LOL 

I'm fairly certain that when  he said DA2 was innovative,  Ray Muzyka, the friggin  CEO of bioware, was not referring to dialogue icons.

- Same with the static outfits for companions that still allow for upgrades and stat alteration.

Rubbish.  Morrigan had an iconic, unique outfit of her very own, and even the "upgraded" one that you get after killing Flemeth maintains the same stylistic look.  All they did for DA2 was make it so that ALL your companions had their own unique outfits, then, in a fit of complete laziness, they locked those outfits on them, eliminating all Roleplay options.  That's not innovation.  it's the opposite of innovation.  It's a backwards step.

- Hawke's family changing to match your Hawke.

That's not new, or innovative.  it's not even an improvement.  In DA:O you could make your protagonist an Elf with tattoos and long ears... and guess what?    if you do so, the game will toss your character into a  story-line prologue  where his/her   entire clan (not just family)   is... elven, with tattoos and long ears.


Again, people need to stop diluting the word "innovation" so that every  little change from the original constitutes  innovation. It doesn't.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2011 - 02:36 .

[stragonar]

Talent progression was fairly innovative, take away some of the bugs that came along with it and it was well done. In DAO the only way you could improve previous talents was by mastery talents that were applicable to the entire line and required heavy investment in that tree. DA2 gives the option to improve some talents without too much attribution to a talent tree. In addition to this multiple talent upgrade options are available to choose from to fit your playstyle. I was impressed by this approach and feel it is noteworthy.

[Zanallen]

Yrkoon wrote...

Hmm...  Nope.   that's not new at all.  DA:O  had Hardened and Unhardened Alistair and Lelianna, who's personality and dialogues change depending on whether you chose to harden them.

Alistair and Leliana are not PCs. Their changes were based on quest outcomes and the Warden choosing a certain response, not the accumulation of the various dialogue choices that your PC makes throughout the game.

Begging your pardon?   but weren't you the one who posted the dictionary definition of innovation for us just a few posts ago??  Please point me to to the part of the definition where it says  "taking something that already exists and improving on it.

"a new idea, method, or device : novelty" That would follow under the method part. Same idea, new method of execution.

I didn't cite  a mage spell combo.  I cited a cross class combo.  Shattering to be exact  - Which involves your mage freezing an opponent, and your warrior or rogue shattering them.  This isn't  any different than, say, Stagger combos in DA2, where your warrior staggers a foe, then your mage electrocutes them with a lightning spell.  So no, there's no innovation here.

Shattering in DA:O was designed as a spell combo that takes advantage of Stone Fist and Crushing Prison. It does work with critical hits from melee attacks, I will give you that. However, all it did was kill lower level enemies and is resistable. DA2 added more cross-class combos, made them deal extra damage when used. That falls under the new method definition as well.

LOL 

I'm fairly certain that when he said DA2 was innovative,  Ray Muzyka, the friggin CEO of bioware, was not referring to dialogue icons.

You don't know what he was referring to. Those icons are an innovation and address an issue present in Origins and the ME series.

Rubbish.  Morrigan had an iconic, unique outfit of her very own, and even the "upgraded" one that you get after killing Flemeth maintains the same stylistic look,

Morrigan's outfit wasn't upgradeable. You could get a second set of robes that looked the same with higher stats. The companions in DA2 all have upgradeable, unique outfits plus slots that allow for further stat customization. Plus, the majority of the companions have unique body types which, while not unique to DA2, is something not present in Origins.

That's not new, or innovative.  it's not even an improvement.  In DA:O you could make your protagonist an Elf with tatoos... and guess what?  the game will toss your character into a  story-line prologue  where his/her   entire clan (not just family)   is... elven, with tattoos.

In DA:O, your family looked the absolute same no matter what your PC looked like. The family in DA2 actually changes hair style and skin color depending on what you make your Hawke look like.

[Haristo]

Seival wrote...


DA2 has the following innovations (for a fantasy RPG game):

• Reinforcement-based dynamic combat.
• Friend-rival social system.
• Dialogue system (modified ME dialogue wheel).
• Character development system with optimized atributes and upgradeable abilities.

1) those Dynamic combats we're dumbed down unstrategic versions of Dragon Age Origins with Over the top animations. i liked those animations but I wanted strategy... and NO WAVES. 
2) meh... it was similar to Dragon Age Origin's Approves or not... I can't really see except for some combat bonuses where it was different to approval and not...
3) Mass Effect rip-off with some icons, it's still up for good (Friendly), middle for neutral (sometimes friendly, sometimes Rivalry, sometimes none) and down for bad (Rivalry). for a Fantasy Game TW2 did it totally better
4) Uh... like every ****ing Companion based RPG out there...

[Meicyn]

Seival wrote...

Reinforcement-based dynamic combat.

There is honestly nothing innovative about having additional waves of enemies spawn after the first group.  This has been done as far back as a decade ago with Phantasy Star Online on the Dreamcast, and perhaps even earlier.

[KLUME777]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Prefacing this with "innovative" doesn't necessarily mean "successful" or "good". It means they tried new things. Some worked, some didn't.

- Friendship/Rivalry system
- Iconic Companion looks
- Crafting system overhaul
- Dialogue Wheel with personality type
- Day/Night areas
- Faster paced, less front-loaded combat

But since you're pretty much offended that DA2 exists at all, you'll probably gloss right over these or dismiss them.

Edit: It wasn't Laidlaw, it was Muzyka in the interview.

And everything you said has been used in other games. It's not innovative, and some have even been in other BioGames (Iconic Companion looks - ME2).

And i thought there was nothing "iconic" about DA2's companions. Morrigan, HK-47, Carth, Bastilla, Allistair, Mordin, Kaiden, Liara all stand out far more than anyone from DA2. The only one i might say is Anders, and he was from Awakening.

Modifié par KLUME777, 19 juin 2011 - 03:09 .

[Zanallen]

Remember people, we don't know the scope that Muzyka was referring to when he used the term innovative. I believe he was referring to just Bioware games if not within the Dragon Age franchise itself. I highly doubt he was referring to all RPGs ever or all video games. There is relatively little that has never been done before.

[Zanallen]

wastelander75 wrote...

If he was referring to JUST the DA series, then I believe it would have been more appropriate to simply say "refinements." Or even simply just say "changes."

Possibly. He could have just said "We tried something different. Some people didn't like it." Of course, if you break it down, that is exactly what he said.

[Jaldaric]

I vote for banning the word "innovate" and all its derivatives. That goes for all you BW people too.

I'm sick of hearing it, when nothing was *the "I" word* at all in DA2.

Edited due to wastelander, and having to put money in the swear jar.

Modifié par Jaldaric, 19 juin 2011 - 04:17 .

[Yrkoon]

[quote]Zanallen wrote...

[quote]Yrkoon wrote...

Hmm...  Nope.   that's not new at all.  DA:O  had Hardened and Unhardened Alistair and Lelianna, who's personality and dialogues change depending on whether you chose to harden them.[/quote]

Alistair and Leliana are not PCs. Their changes were based on quest outcomes and the Warden choosing a certain response, not the accumulation of the various dialogue choices that your PC makes throughout the game.
[/quote]
Whats the relevant difference?



[quote]






[quote]Begging your pardon?   but weren't you the one who posted the dictionary definition of innovation for us just a few posts ago??  Please point me to to the part of the definition where it says  "taking something that already exists and improving on it.[/quote]

"a new idea, method, or device : novelty" That would follow under the method part. Same idea, new method of execution.[/quote]
Huh?


[quote]


[quote]I didn't cite  a mage spell combo.  I cited a cross class combo.  Shattering to be exact  - Which involves your mage freezing an opponent, and your warrior or rogue shattering them.  This isn't  any different than, say, Stagger combos in DA2, where your warrior staggers a foe, then your mage electrocutes them with a lightning spell.  So no, there's no innovation here.[/quote]Shattering in DA:O was designed as a spell combo that takes advantage of Stone Fist and Crushing Prison.[/quote]
And critical hits from non mages.   Which makes it a cross class combo.   You don't have a point.



[quote]
[quote]
I'm fairly certain that when he said DA2 was innovative,  Ray Muzyka, the friggin CEO of bioware, was not referring to dialogue icons.[/quote]
You don't know what he was referring to. [/quote]
LOL  ok.  if he was talking  about friggin icons on the dialogue wheel, then  this is so much ado about NOTHING.  No one gives a sh*t about   cosmetic 'innovations'.    That is to say, if that's all the "innovations" that DA2 had, then it's safe to say that DA2 was not an innovative Bioware game. 



[quote]

[quote]Rubbish.  Morrigan had an iconic, unique outfit of her very own, and even the "upgraded" one that you get after killing Flemeth maintains the same stylistic look,[/quote]Morrigan's outfit wasn't upgradeable. [/quote]
It didn't have to be.  Since you could give her boots to wear, or a helmet.  or gloves.    (all of chich are classified as armor)  Or hell, you could upgrade her armor  outright, by buying her  better robes.  You're calling  these silly  rune-slot upgrades  an innovation.  They're not.    They're a compromise  measure to appease those who were pissed off that they  had zero choice in companion  gear.


[quote]
[quote]
That's not new, or innovative.  it's not even an improvement.  In DA:O you could make your protagonist an Elf with tatoos... and guess what?  the game will toss your character into a  story-line prologue  where his/her   entire clan (not just family)   is... elven, with tattoos. [/quote]

In DA:O, your family looked the absolute same no matter what your PC looked like. The family in DA2 actually changes hair style and skin color depending on what you make your Hawke look like.

[/quote]
Er... in DA:O you could choose to... not have a family at all.    Or You could choose to have a dwarven family, or an elven family, or a human family.    And they don't just look different depending on what your PC is, they ARE different.  they're different races outright.

Again, if you want to  grasp on to  silly cosmetic changes like 'mommy  Hawke having matching skin color',  and call them "innovative" you go ahead.   But you've already lost the battle.   If Ray Muzyka had come out and only said:  Well, I'm happy with the minor cosmetic innovations in DA2!", he'd have been laughed  out of the gaming industry by now.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 juin 2011 - 06:09 .

[psrugger]

I read on the G4 app that Bioware is claiming that they'll going to be listening to their fans with the future dlc....BUT also stated they, Bioware, are planning to still try to apply to the masses along with core fan of DA:O....Do they not understand that by trying to get a larger number of people into the game is what, imo, F'd this game in the first place.

All true RPGers will understand this and to those that don't...you're the ones that Bioware was marketing to, which caused the core fans to get dick'd over...anyways, it's like this:

To build a powerful character, you have to focus your points into the key attributes for that type, be it mage, rogue, warrior. OR you can spread you points out equally and be strong enough to just get by. In DA:O, Bioware focused on the key elements of a great RPG....BUT in DA2, Bioware distributed their skill points out equally in attempt to attract the masses, which made all their so called "innovations" mediocre at best.

I have no plans on checking out the future dlc until reviewed by a large number of the "core" fans.

[Speakeasy13]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


- Friendship/Rivalry system
- Iconic Companion looks
- Crafting system overhaul
- Dialogue Wheel with personality type
- Day/Night areas
- Faster paced, less front-loaded combat

Well with the exception of the Friendship/Rivalry system, how is any of these things innovative? Are we calling removal of stuff innovation now?