143 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

I dont like that word innovative.

It is the wrong word to describe DA2, and I don't mean that DA2 sucks or anything.

I also didn't appreciate reading in that interview that those of us who didnt like what DA2 did different, or the folks that didn't like DA2 period are just apparently idiots afraid of change. At least thats how I read it.
Its insulting, and completely untrue.

Yes there have been some knee-jerk "omg its not DAO why did you change? its awful!" reactions; but those were relatively few. They came from a very vocal but very small minority of people. Most people had very legitimate complaints with DA2 and was not borne of a fear of change and to suggest that it IS fear of change is just insulting IMO.

[WidowMaker9394]

Edgy new attitude.

[OmegaBlue0231]

I love DA2, I love it more than Origins. That being said, it wasn't innovative, unless innovative means not having a long as hell deep roads part.

[Firewolf99]

I certainly think the story was innovative. I preferred the story without the "Oo, let's save the country/ world/ universe" aspect again. And by innovative, Bioware possibly meant for the company than for RPG's in general, meaning comparisons just with Origins as opposed to KOTOR, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy and (groan) Witcher 2. I don't know that, obviously, as I'm not the bloke, but yeah: my view.

[Dubya75]

Firewolf99 wrote...

I certainly think the story was innovative. I preferred the story without the "Oo, let's save the country/ world/ universe" aspect again. And by innovative, Bioware possibly meant for the company than for RPG's in general, meaning comparisons just with Origins as opposed to KOTOR, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy and (groan) Witcher 2. I don't know that, obviously, as I'm not the bloke, but yeah: my view.

You're kidding right? Nice, for a second there I thought you were serious.
The story is as shallow and un-innovative as it gets. A 12-year old with half a brain could write a much better story.

Modifié par Dubya75, 20 juin 2011 - 02:16 .

[Persephone]

Dubya75 wrote...

Firewolf99 wrote...

I certainly think the story was innovative. I preferred the story without the "Oo, let's save the country/ world/ universe" aspect again. And by innovative, Bioware possibly meant for the company than for RPG's in general, meaning comparisons just with Origins as opposed to KOTOR, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy and (groan) Witcher 2. I don't know that, obviously, as I'm not the bloke, but yeah: my view.

You're kidding right? Nice, for a second there I thought you were serious.
The story is as shallow and un-innovative as it gets. A 12-year old with half a brain could write a much better story.

Leave your manners at the door again, eh?

Yeesh, how obnoxious! Yes, I get it. You loved DAII at first, now you despise it. Wonderful to have a friend like you. Really.

[Dubya75]

Persephone wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Firewolf99 wrote...

I certainly think the story was innovative. I preferred the story without the "Oo, let's save the country/ world/ universe" aspect again. And by innovative, Bioware possibly meant for the company than for RPG's in general, meaning comparisons just with Origins as opposed to KOTOR, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy and (groan) Witcher 2. I don't know that, obviously, as I'm not the bloke, but yeah: my view.

You're kidding right? Nice, for a second there I thought you were serious.
The story is as shallow and un-innovative as it gets. A 12-year old with half a brain could write a much better story.

Leave your manners at the door again, eh?

Yeesh, how obnoxious! Yes, I get it. You loved DAII at first, now you despise it. Wonderful to have a friend like you. Really.

You put me to shame P! 
I'm a really nice guy in real life though...

Modifié par Dubya75, 20 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[Siegdrifa]

DA2, innovating ? none
I enjoyed the game, but there was no innovation or things i never experimented before in other games.

No that i was looking for innovation at first place, even without any innovation, DA2 had some strong point that made me have fun.

Characters : i don't remember a game where i actualy had a hard time to choose my squad mate, it was the biggest surprise for me, May be since Final Fantasy 7, Xeno Gears and Chrono Cross, and Suikoden of caurse, 108 playable character for only 5 spot, Anyway, i didn't had this feeling since a decade or more.

Sub quest : (not the delivery quest) where intresting and well written, not just get the quest, kill the mobs, get your reward, i liked to look for info and to go at serval place for one quest. Unfortunatly some have no real different ending but it is another matter.

Combat and strategic possibily. Could be better in fact, but there is lot of possibility.

[macrocarl]

I thought having a snarky attitude was building on the pre-existing P/R ME style wheel. I know folks harsh on not having as many dialog choices as the old text style of dialog but they did expand on what was already there in a way that I thought was pretty fancy. Along with that came the tone shifts which I thought was straight up innovative.
Also, can someone tell me exactly which game out there has a friendship/ rivalry dialog system? I've never seen that before, although I'm not a huge video game buff.

[nightlordv]

It wasn't innovative. There are plenty of games that did what DA2 did and did it better in many regards. Bioware head honchos have to talk like this to please their investors. Fans aren't as important as we used to be, even though we should be since we dump money into these games and make these companies what they are.
I will remain skeptical that Bioware and EA are "listening" to fan outcry about DA2 until I see this new DLC and the direction DA3 is going.

[macrocarl]

nightlordv wrote...

It wasn't innovative. There are plenty of games that did what DA2 did and did it better in many regards. Bioware head honchos have to talk like this to please their investors. Fans aren't as important as we used to be, even though we should be since we dump money into these games and make these companies what they are.
I will remain skeptical that Bioware and EA are "listening" to fan outcry about DA2 until I see this new DLC and the direction DA3 is going.

Do you have examples of which specific features in which game titles?

[Raygereio]

macrocarl wrote...
Do you have examples of which specific features in which game titles?

Name a specific feature or area in which DA2 supposedly was "innovative" in and I'm sure I or someone else can name a game that did anything DA2 did before DA2 (and in some cases mayhaps even better).

Take the concept of a framed narrative for one; besides the fact that a story within story as hardly a new literary device, it's also already been used in plenty of videogames going back to the NES era, with recently Alpha Protocol doing it way better then DA2.  
How about an unreliable narrator? Also something that's been used before. Final Fantasy 7, for one.
Friendship vs. Rivalry then? Oh snap, KotOR 2 also had gameplay boni with directions of the influence meter. This is merely a more evolved version of that.

DA2 did nothing new when viewed against the videogame industry as a whole (the DA2 team did new things when viewed only against BioWare history).
Message to BioWare. You guys messed up and made a game that wasn't good. It wasn't bad either, it was just average. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It happens to all us. Now would you kindly stop it with the desperate marketing spiel to reduce reputation damage following DA2? The only people that are buying into it are the people that already think DA2 is good (for some unfathomable reason). The rest just think it's stupid and we're getting tired from it. Get over DA2 and try again. Look forwards, not backwards. <insert motivaional cliche here>
Ps. Evaluate your marketing department. Especially the guys who came with the "Awesome-Button' and the "DA2 was super-duper innovative" thing. Really evaluate those guys, they might be better of serving coffee. Trust me, it'll help you in the long run. Well, that and making good games.

Modifié par Raygereio, 21 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[Dubya75]

Raygereio wrote...

macrocarl wrote...
Do you have examples of which specific features in which game titles?

Name a specific feature or area in which DA2 supposedly was "innovative" in and I'm sure I or someone else can name a game that did anything DA2 did before DA2 (and in some cases mayhaps even better).

Take the concept of a framed narrative for one; besides the fact that a story within story as hardly a new literary device, it's also already been used in plenty of videogames going back to the NES era, with recently Alpha Protocol doing it way better then DA2.  
How about an unreliable narrator? Also something that's been used before. Final Fantasy 7, for one.
Friendship vs. Rivalry then? Oh snap, KotOR 2 also had gameplay boni with directions of the influence meter. This is merely a more evolved version of that.

DA2 did nothing new when viewed against the videogame industry as a whole (the DA2 team did new things when viewed only against BioWare history).
Message to BioWare. You guys messed up and made a game that wasn't good. It wasn't bad either, it was just average. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It happens to all us. Now would you kindly stop it with the desperate marketing spiel to reduce reputation damage following DA2? The only people that are buying into it are the people that already think DA2 is good (for some unfathomable reason). The rest just think it's stupid and we're getting tired from it. Get over DA2 and try again. Look forwards, not backwards. <insert motivaional cliche here>
Ps. Evaluate your marketing department. Especially the guys who came with the "Awesome-Button' and the "DA2 was super-duper innovative" thing. Really evaluate those guys, they might be better of serving coffee. Trust me, it'll help you in the long run. Well, that and making good games.

I would pay money for someone at BioWare to give an honest non-PR reply to this! 

[macrocarl]

Oh yeah, KOTOR 2, I forgot about that actually. While I get your point that not a whole whole lot about it is brand spanking new, the cut scene tone thing they used was pretty fancy and while PR speak is annoying, I would put DA2 at 'ambitious'.

[Good Cat]

Imho most innovate thing was bringing back Neverwinter Nights (first and the best) play style. But NWN was better than DA2 in: dark fairy-land graphic, sense of humour, locations, locations and again locations, also variety of locations. DA2 have lack of DARK MAGIC. I already vomit when I see fireballs, thunders and other boring spells. And blood magic isn't better at all, only its name sounds good. But Dragon Age 2 is a fine game and I like it. I only do not want to hear that it is a dark fantasy game any more, because IT IS NOT DARK AT ALL! And LOL this exploding corpses idea.

Modifié par Good Cat, 21 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[Nerevar-as]

Kotor 2 had an advantage over DA2, as there were game overarching reasons why the companions needed to acompany the Exile in her travels. Without that, in DA2 I wondered why rivals would still defer to Hawke and help in his/her quests despite disagreeing in most things and not liking Hawke.

[Raygereio]

Nerevar-as wrote...
Without that, in DA2 I wondered why rivals would still defer to Hawke and help in his/her quests despite disagreeing in most things and not liking Hawke.

That's the thing. They do still like/respect Hawke. They're still friends - if uneasy ones - who just disagree about certain things. Granted, this rather crucial aspect of the friendship vs. rivalry thing could have been presented better ingame.

Modifié par Raygereio, 21 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[Dial_595]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Prefacing this with "innovative" doesn't necessarily mean "successful" or "good". It means they tried new things. Some worked, some didn't.

- Friendship/Rivalry system
- Iconic Companion looks
- Crafting system overhaul
- Dialogue Wheel with personality type
- Day/Night areas
- Faster paced, less front-loaded combat

But since you're pretty much offended that DA2 exists at all, you'll probably gloss right over these or dismiss them.

Edit: It wasn't Laidlaw, it was Muzyka in the interview.

Whilst the changes to the crafting system we're welcome by me, I'd hardly call them innovative. Diablo 2 was innovative in that regard upon its release, and DA2 is so far behind that it's not even funny.

Neither would I deign to label the dialogue wheel as an innovation (yay, it looks different than a top-down list? AND it had already been in ME1 and 2?) nor Day/Night Areas, considering we had those in... let me give you a hint... another BW game released more than 10 years ago...

I do not understand how fast-paced combat is supposed to be innovative. I wasn't aware the essential features of an FPS would be considered the pinnacle of innovation if (they'd been successfully) applied to an RPG. What I had was button mashing without a pause function. Infinity blade is fast paced and somewhat innovative, considering I played combat-focused innovative games over ten years ago. Sadly I can't remember the name of that one where your character performed different types of thrusts depending on how you moved your mouse.

Iconic Companions? I don't even know what that means or how it is in any way innovative.

Friendship/Rivalry systems I would agree, is a neat function.

Do I wish the horrible, horrible unfinished mess that is Dragon Age 2 had never existed? Yes, I do, so I'm going to gloss over all of the above "innovations". BW can come back when they've taken a course on the subject and do it right this time.

Just because they did something different from DA:O does in no way make it innovative. When they've come up with a gaming experience that advances the industry standard (Like Blizzard) then they can come back and talk about how they've achieved something innovative. Until that point they can take this sorry excuse for a gaming experience and put it back in the bin where it belongs.

It's going to take some serious work on that upcoming DLC to please me, and I hope they'll deliver because I think they had a good thing going with the original Dragon Age IP as a whole, before they let it down with this sorry mess.

[xCirdanx]

Dial_595 wrote...

When they've come up with a gaming experience that advances the industry standard (Like Blizzard) then they can come back and talk about how they've achieved something innovative. Until that point they can take this sorry excuse for a gaming experience and put it back in the bin where it belongs.

Taking ideas from others and reworking them like Blizzard does the whole time is hopefully not the industry standard.

But yes, innovative is the favourite word for game companies these days, just for the sake of marketing, and to distract from crapy game aspects.

[Seival]

Innovation is not always something completely new. It can also be something old that was used in some other way. Dynamic combat, reinforcements... they were used in non-RPG games for a long time. But they are new for RPG genre. That's why dynamic reinforcement-based combat is innovative for RPG.

Again, DA2 has the following innovations (for a fantasy RPG game):

• Reinforcement-based dynamic combat.
• Friend-rival social system.
• Dialogue system (modified ME dialogue wheel).
• Character development system with optimized atributes and upgradeable abilities.

Modifié par Seival, 21 juin 2011 - 08:44 .

[Raygereio]

Seival wrote...
1. Reinforcement-based dynamic combat.
2. Friend-rival social system.
3. Dialogue system (modified ME dialogue wheel).
4. Character development system with optimized atributes and upgradeable abilities.[/list]

1. I'm not really sure what the word "dynamic" is doing there in this context. Unless you're referring to some other meaning of the word, DA2's combat was a pretty static afair. The game didn't change anything up by beaming in different types enemies, or by having them jump down building A instead of building B, or anything.
That said, I'll give you this one. The only RPG's I can think of that have reinforcements comming at you in waves did it as a gimmick for boss fights. Apparently up until DA2 no one has been crazy enough to build every single combat encounter around it.
2. This is essentially just giving the player gameplay boni for maximizing an influence meter. Other games have done this. It's also a refined verison of this that does not punish the player for not kowtowing to the NPC's every wish. Other games have done this as well. KotOR 2 for one.
3. Erm, the dialogue wheel is nothing more then a different version of the old "select something to say from these options" that we've had for ages and it was ME that introduced it, not DA2. DA2's system is slightly different in that it gives you icons to better signal to the player what you're going to say, but that's just a refinment of the dialoguewheel system. One can hardly call that an innovation..
The only thing I can think of that is really new here is having Hawke develop a default attitude by choosing a certain stance several times.
4. I have no clue what "optimized atributes" are supposed to be, but upgradeable abilities isn't new.

Modifié par Raygereio, 21 juin 2011 - 11:31 .

[Morroian]

Raygereio wrote...

2. This is essentially just giving the player gameplay boni for maximizing an influence meter. Other games have done this. It's also a refined verison of this that does not punish the player for not kowtowing to the NPC's every wish. Other games have done this as well. KotOR 2 for one.

The F/R system is an evolution of those systems though and thus an innovation. Its not just for gameplay purposes in terms of additional options through getting it high enough but it also enhances role playing through character interaction.

[Nightdragon8]

Raygereio wrote...

Seival wrote...
1. Reinforcement-based dynamic combat.
2. Friend-rival social system.
3. Dialogue system (modified ME dialogue wheel).
4. Character development system with optimized atributes and upgradeable abilities.[/list]

1. I'm not really sure what the word "dynamic" is doing there in this context. Unless you're referring to some other meaning of the word, DA2's combat was a pretty static afair. The game didn't change anything up by beaming in different types enemies, or by having them jump down building A instead of building B, or anything.
That said, I'll give you this one. The only RPG's I can think of that have reinforcements comming at you in waves did it as a gimmick for boss fights. Apparently up until DA2 no one has been crazy enough to build every single combat encounter around it.
2. This is essentially just giving the player gameplay boni for maximizing an influence meter. Other games have done this. It's also a refined verison of this that does not punish the player for not kowtowing to the NPC's every wish. Other games have done this as well. KotOR 2 for one.
3. Erm, the dialogue wheel is nothing more then a different version of the old "select something to say from these options" that we've had for ages and it was ME that introduced it, not DA2. DA2's system is slightly different in that it gives you icons to better signal to the player what you're going to say, but that's just a refinment of the dialoguewheel system. One can hardly call that an innovation..
The only thing I can think of that is really new here is having Hawke develop a default attitude by choosing a certain stance several times.
4. I have no clue what "optimized atributes" are supposed to be, but upgradeable abilities isn't new.

1. I agreee not sure what he mean by dynamic after the 4th playerthough its pretty much the same fights, expect yea they jump off of building b insted of building A (btw this stuff was in Dragon age Awakening)

2. Eh I liked the system where the NPC wont leave the party if you happen to disagree with them.

3. He even said "modified from ME" so your nit pick was pointless. But I think what he was trying to say is that, We have a diplomatic option, a sarcasic option, or a mean option. I mean I would love to see that in ME3 (granted hard to see a Shep that jokes around)

4. Not sure either but at least in this game it shows you what changes when you put a point in a state insted of guessing.

[Yrkoon]

Raygereio wrote...

macrocarl wrote...
Do you have examples of which specific features in which game titles?

Name a specific feature or area in which DA2 supposedly was "innovative" in and I'm sure I or someone else can name a game that did anything DA2 did before DA2 (and in some cases mayhaps even better).

Take the concept of a framed narrative for one; besides the fact that a story within story as hardly a new literary device, it's also already been used in plenty of videogames going back to the NES era, with recently Alpha Protocol doing it way better then DA2.  

We don't even need to cite other IPs.

Lelianna's Song, a DA:O dlc, was a framed narrative.  A framed narrative with a voiced protagonist, even.

There's *nothing* innovative about DA2. Nothing.  And while I can certainly understand why Bioware executives would want to try and make up selling points   by using  these moronic catch phrases,  they're really going a step further and flat out LYING  in desperation for sales.

Raygereio wrote...


1. I'm not really sure what the word "dynamic" is doing there in this context. Unless you're referring to some other meaning of the word, DA2's combat was a pretty static afair.

By dynamic I think he meant that the mobs don't just come from the horizon or from thin air, they also drop down from the sky LOL

Modifié par Yrkoon, 22 juin 2011 - 02:36 .

[Seival]

By dynamic I think he meant that the mobs don't just come from the horizon or from thin air, they also drop down from the sky LOL

You want details? Ok, I’ll give you details…



Reinforcement-based dynamic combat:

Dynamic combat is combat that requires a lot of movement and abilities’ usage. Damage is not the main part of such combat. Main parts of such combat are: positioning, crowd control, anti crowd control, and tactics. DA2 combat is dynamic, but only if you play on “hard” or “nightmare” difficulty levels. The lower difficulty level is – the more static the combat becomes. There are some easy encounters even on “nightmare”, but it’s ok. Not all game encounters should be equally hard.

Reinforcement-based means that enemies use reinforcements. You can’t see all enemies at the beginning of the battle and have to use your abilities carefully. If you rush, you can be placed in situation where all your characters are out of mana/stamina, all potions are on the cool-down, and you still have a lot of enemies to fight (which means death in most cases on “nightmare” difficulty level). Knowing the mechanics of reinforcements in DA2 will not give you one I-W-I-N button. You will be much more prepared to fight, BUT you still have to move and use abilities or your party will die.



Friend-rival social system:

Similar mechanics was used in other games, yes. But modification of old mechanics is also innovation. In DA2 character may be your friend or may be a rival. Neither rival nor friend will punish player for “incorrect relationship”. Rival has his own advantages, and friend has his own advantages. Each your team mate has personal feelings about your main character. And you can use friendship or hate of your team mates to have some advantage in the combat. Friend will fight better because he likes you, and rival will fight better because he just vents his rage on the battlefield.
 
 
Dialogue system (modified ME dialogue wheel):

As I already told: modification of old mechanics is also innovation. DA2 uses modified ME dialogue wheel. The wheel itself is great for dialogues. It doesn’t require a lot of space on the screen, and provides up to 10 phrases to use at the same dialogue part (“investigate” and “return” are not phrases). In DA2 wheel has noticeable usability improvement compared to ME and ME2. Icons on each phrase show you what exactly you are going to do: make an important decision, ask about something, make a joke, and so on.



Character development system with optimized atributes and upgradeable abilities:

By optimized attributes I mean attributes system where each attribute is truly useable for each class. Most existing RPGs (the ones that have classes of course) still have attribute systems where each class needs just 1 or 2 attributes out of 6 (or something similar). Other attributes’ development is just a waste of effectiveness for a character. DA2 attribute system allows you to make effective characters with all 6 attributes developed and useable for him. And at the same time you still can make effective enough characters with only 1 or 2 developed attributes if you want to.

Upgradeable abilities were in some other games, but not in the same way as in DA2. DA2 has abilities’ trees, where most abilities can be upgraded differently. At the same time, there is no “spell book” + “talent tree” (that improves “spells” from the “spell book”). The best examples of such ability system are in DA2 and Rift. Maybe in some other new games also, but still – such ability system IS innovative.