129 réponses à ce sujet

[HSHAW]

What allies will the mages have and what tools will they have at their disposal in a Mage vs Templar conflict?

[IanPolaris]

HSHAW wrote...

What allies will the mages have and what tools will they have at their disposal in a Mage vs Templar conflict?

If the first enchanter of the local circle is sane, I think that many circles can get at least a tacit alliance with the local nobility and/or Royalty (see Fereldan).  It is in the secular nobility's best interest to see the Chantry cut down a peg or three especially if they can gain partial control over the regulation of magic in the process.

That, and a rogue drug addicted templar army will be viewed with far more alarm by most rational nobles than the hypothetical threat of possessed mages.

-Polaris

[HSHAW]

Will they be making more A-bombs (from now on Anders' bomb shall be called the A-bomb) if Anders is spared?

[DKJaigen]

The tevinter imperium and the grey wardens as well as any anti chantry dragon cults.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages have nothing but their own magic abilities. No noble will ever dare ally themselves with the mages, at fear of reprisal from rivals who would use the excuse of "heresy" to gain advantage.

The Templars are a symbol, even if they are no longer under the Chantry, which the nobles remember as guardians and mage-hunters. The mages area symbol too, but one of danger and unpredictability. There is simply too great a risk to ally with the mages, compared with the Templars, or staying out of the conflict completely.

[ddv.rsa]

Polaris thinks secular nobles will flock to the mage cause. Sahlertz thinks they wouldn't dare. I think they'll be divided on the issue, with ruthless/ambitious nobles throwing their lot in with the rebels. The Chantry != Orlais. I don't think every ruler will be willing to desert their religion for a bit more power over the local mages.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

They have my sword...

[dragonflight288]

And the mages my axe...now who has the bow?

[DonutsDealer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And the mages my axe...now who has the bow?

The Dalish?

[DonutsDealer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And the mages my axe...now who has the bow?

The Dalish?

[Huntress]

My wardens will help My hawke's! thats enough power to take over the fade!

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Polaris thinks secular nobles will flock to the mage cause. Sahlertz thinks they wouldn't dare. I think they'll be divided on the issue, with ruthless/ambitious nobles throwing their lot in with the rebels. The Chantry != Orlais. I don't think every ruler will be willing to desert their religion for a bit more power over the local mages.

I think "flocks" overstates my case a bit.  However, I do think that a significant amount of secular nobility and royalty will (ultimately) side with the mages.  As for "not daring" why not?  The Chantry is now very visibly a toothless tiger with the Templars in revolt as well, and I promise you that given the choice of threats between a handful of people with magical powers that most people fear and and ENTIRE ROGUE ARMY that has just been cut off from their primary drug supply, a sane noble will pick the ROGUE ARMY as the greater threat especially since a handful of people can't take and hold a kingdom unless they are very powerful (and I mean Flemeth and/or Witch-Hunt Warden Commander of Fereldan powerful) and we know that the mages don't hold anywhere close to that sort of power, but a rogue army can (and the Templars have shown that they will) take over entire noble freeholds for their own design.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

I do think that a significant amount of secular nobility and royalty will (ultimately) side with the mages. 

Agreed, but more so in some places than others.

IanPolaris wrote...
As for "not daring" why not?  The Chantry is now very visibly a toothless tiger

Obviously anyone wanting to flout Chantry authority could now do so with (relative) impunity.

IanPolaris wrote...
with the Templars in revolt as well, and I promise you that given the choice of threats between a handful of people with magical powers that most people fear and and ENTIRE ROGUE ARMY that has just been cut off from their primary drug supply, a sane noble will pick the ROGUE ARMY as the greater threat especially since a handful of people can't take and hold a kingdom unless they are very powerful (and I mean Flemeth and/or Witch-Hunt Warden Commander of Fereldan powerful) and we know that the mages don't hold anywhere close to that sort of power, but a rogue army can (and the Templars have shown that they will) take over entire noble freeholds for their own design.

-Polaris

It depends on what the Templars are up to. Personally I doubt they'll embark on a conquest of Thedas. Remember that the average Templar isn't Meredith with designs on secular power. People join the Templars to protect the wolrd from magic. So I think we'll see roving bands hunting mages. They'll appeal to friendly nobles for assistance, and perhaps carry out attacks against nobles openly sympathetic to be mages. But I don't think they'll be a threat to the average Bann / Lord.

I also think that if Templars (or even mages) started arriving in Orzammar to purchase Lyrium directly they'd get it.  They Chantry won't be buying anymore, but I promise you that doesn't mean the dwarves will stop selling.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

It depends on what the Templars are up to. Personally I doubt they'll embark on a conquest of Thedas. Remember that the average Templar isn't Meredith with designs on secular power. People join the Templars to protect the wolrd from magic. So I think we'll see roving bands hunting mages. They'll appeal to friendly nobles for assistance, and perhaps carry out attacks against nobles openly sympathetic to be mages. But I don't think they'll be a threat to the average Bann / Lord.

I also think that if Templars (or even mages) started arriving in Orzammar to purchase Lyrium directly they'd get it.  They Chantry won't be buying anymore, but I promise you that doesn't mean the dwarves will stop selling.

These are interesting points, but the problem is the Templars have no source of income (other than "foraging"...which usually means plundering and abusing the locals to cough up supplies) now that they are outside the chantry.  This is one more reason why I think the Fereldan Templars (for one) will agree to merge with the new "Chantry of Fereldan" or even go directly under King Alistair's oversight....on the promise that Fereldan keeps the current Templars supplied with lyrium.  Because of this, in terms of Mage v Templar, I see Ferledan as being a pro-mage quiet place.

That makes the Templars elsewhere even more of a threat though.  Whatever the good intendtions of local Templar commanders, Lyrium is a drug they literally can not do without, and without income they must beg/borrow/steal from another sponser or plunder the lands in order to buy it themselves, and I promise you the noble that wasn't able to "buy" the local Templars because of a lack of local lyrium connections will vew them as a threat.

-Polaris

[Dragonella1]

Honesty, I find it hard to believe that most meges even consider rebellion without some encouragement from outside. The only rebellion (not self-defense like in Kirkwall) we have seen was Uldred's in DAO and Uldred (when he was still Uldred not Uldred plus one) was acting quite reasonable by making first deal with Loghain. So my theory is that in most cases there was more or less open support from local rulers and nobility even before open rebellion started.
As to Templars I guess their image suffer a lot due to circumstances of Meredith's death. Smart propaganda can easily show her actions under influence of an idol as singe of corruption of all the order and her death as Maker's punishment.

[TEWR]

• Family members that didn't shun them away the moment they were revealed to learn magic
  
  
• Elven mages have the Dalish, assuming a clan welcomes them. We've only seen two, and both so far have accepted City Elves.
  
  
• Nobility that are sympathetic to mages. Which may go in line with number 1. There was an Underground Railroad of sorts in Kirkwall. 
  
  
• Ferelden should King Alistair tell the Divine to sod off.
  
  
• Tevinter if they care (highly unlikely)
  
  
• Rivain and the Chasind. Maybe indirectly at least, as they have free mages in their societies and the Templars may not like that. Should the Templars attack them, they may ally themselves with the mages purely out of belief that mages should be free too and not to have many mages live with them.
  
  
• My Warden(s).
  
  
• If Dagna's epilogue remains canon, Orzammar. The Chantry and renegade Templars would be fools to assault Orzammar as Dwarves are the only people who can safely mine lyrium, save for the occasional accident (Garin).
  
  
• Potentially Hawke.
  
  
• If there are some Templars who abandoned the Chantry to help the mages, then them. I assume some Templars would have magic somewhere in their lineage. Maybe even a sister or brother. A son or daughter.
  
  
• Arl Eamon definitely, for his son.
• The De Launcet family. They are nobility after all, and nobility could do a lot.
  
  
• If the renegade Templars decide to attack Grey Warden Mages, then the Grey Wardens will indirectly assist. Maybe not going to the mages side, but they will defend themselves which will help the mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2011 - 05:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why on earth would the Chasind ever even bother with the conflict? Even if they did, they would certainly not be in favor of the mages, they are far too fearful of magic to ever side with the mages. The same with Rivain, why on earth would Rivain side wit hthe mages? They care only for their own Seers, not some random apostate. Add to that that Rivain is torn between Chantry, Qun and their own traditions, and you got yourself some pressing arguments for the Rivaini to join the Templar side, or even more likely, not bother with the conflict at all.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why on earth would the Chasind ever even bother with the conflict? Even if they did, they would certainly not be in favor of the mages, they are far too fearful of magic to ever side with the mages.

I don't remember anything being stated anywhere that the Chasind feared magic. What they fear are the Witches of the Wilds (meaning Flemeth and Morrigan) because they believe they will take their children.


Flemeth and Morrigan =/= all mages everywhere.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2011 - 05:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why on earth would the Chasind ever even bother with the conflict? Even if they did, they would certainly not be in favor of the mages, they are far too fearful of magic to ever side with the mages.

I don't remember anything being stated anywhere that the Chasind feared magic.

They live in fear of their shamans, and they fear the legends of the witches of the wild. They are a superstitious lot.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They live in fear of their shamans,

Where was that stated?

and they fear the legends of the witches of the wild. They are a superstitious lot.

Witches of the Wild meaning Flemeth (in every body she's been in because she took children) and Morrigan.
 

Those two =/= all mages everywhere.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

That makes the Templars elsewhere even more of a threat though.  Whatever the good intendtions of local Templar commanders, Lyrium is a drug they literally can not do without, and without income they must beg/borrow/steal from another sponser or plunder the lands in order to buy it themselves, and I promise you the noble that wasn't able to "buy" the local Templars because of a lack of local lyrium connections will vew them as a threat.

-Polaris

They'd need backers with money. I'm sure some people / nobles / nations / Chantry clerics would be happy to assist where they can. In places where they can't find support things might turn nasty. Conceivably they could even develop a reputation as marauders. Then again it would be easy for them to paint communities who turn them away as "heretics" and "heathens".

The same problem applies to the rebels, though to a lesser degree. They also need lyrium for their magic but at least they aren't addicted to the stuff. Then there's more basic stuff like money and supplies which they'll also have to get somewhere.

Depending on local support both sides could be reduced to little more than bandits. If the dwarves play this right they'll be rolling in money. They could set whatever price they like, and refuse to sell lyrium to any side that attacks them. Someone could even offer them a massive bribe to cripple one side by witholding lyrium.

[IanPolaris]

DDV,

Yes, but in terms of logistics the mages actually have the net advantage. Because magic can aid growth and can heal, and because there are so many fewer mages...and because they don't NEED Lyrium, the logistical 'tail' is far, far smaller for the mages than for the templars. That makes it far less likely the mages will be viewed as marauders especially if the mages can offer services in exchange for goods (particularly healing).

-Polaris

[dragonflight288]

And thus we bring up one of my earlier points in another thread. The only way the templars can win this war if it is done hard and fast, likely with a massive amount of collateral damage.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 juin 2011 - 07:00 .