129 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is because he is the brother of Eamon. A Bann can obtain influence, but in the comming conflicts he must already have it. I doubt Ferrenly is anyone noteworty, so I doubt he is going to be a major piece in the conflict.

[TEWR]

A Bann's forces can still help out greatly. If Ferelden truly does tell the Chantry to sod off like IanPolaris thinks, then most if not all of Ferelden will back the mages up.

Arl Eamon and his forces definitely will.

Depending on where Bann Ferrenly is, he might.

Amaranthine will if the rogue Templars try to attack the Grey Warden mages.


Really, we can only speculate who will and won't help at this point in time. Asunder may give us more clues and information.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry doesn't even play a part in this conflict. The conflict is purely between the mages and the Templars. The Chantry is apparently trying to mediate a peace of sorts between the two, even. There is absolutely no reason for Ferelden to dismantle the Chantry within their borders, unless they want to harbor the mages, and then also play host to the conflict itself. On the other hand, if they keep the Chantry, they will be "safe" from the conlict, as the Chantry will still be able to operate in Ferelden and try to prevent the conflict there aswell.

I don't see why the Templars would attack the Grey Wardens which is a faction the Templars have accepted since before they were called the Templars. It is far more likely that the Templars will focus solely on the renegade mages at first, and depending on how well the war goes, they will branch out to other apostates, which still won't be the Grey Wardens as they aren't apostates.

What Polaris is suggesting is a pipe dream, caused by his dislike of the Chantry and his hopes for its power reduction. It won't happen. At least not in the way he is imagining.

All we do on this forum is speculation. It keeps us sharp and ready for the next new thing which we need to debate/whine/fight about.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 juin 2011 - 02:19 .

[TEWR]

They wouldn't dismantle the Chantry. They would just stop the Chantry from having any influence in Ferelden. The religion would stay, the Templar Order would stay but be under service to King Alistair, but the Chantry wouldn't have any influence. That's what I mean by when I say they tell the Chantry to sod off.


Considering Rylock attacked Anders the Grey Warden, claiming Chantry authority supercedes the crown, and the Chantry placed a plant in the Grey Wardens I expect the Templars to not let the Grey Warden mages get off easily. They're hunting mages. They could care less about who they're aligned to or what culture they're a part of. An apostate is an apostate, even if he's been given safe shelter and is doing something that shouldn't result in him being persecuted.


And true enough. I think 80% of my posts have been speculation or asking "why couldn't this have happened instead?"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The problem with that whole theory is: The Templars aren't part of the Chantry anymore. Ferelden would gain nothing, but would become the battlefield if they were to dismantle the Chantry within their borders. Right now Ferelden will need Chantry influence to help prevent the war, since no one stands to gain anything from it. Other than the Qunari anyway.

The reason the Templars(/Rylock) went after Anders was becasue they suspected him of killing their fellow Templars, and they probably held a grudge against him for managing to escape 7 (or was it 8?) times. Usually the Grey Wardens would recruit mages from the Circle towers, which wouldn't be apostates afterwards. In some cases they probably also recruit apostates (like Bethany), which would be apostates, up until they undergo the Joinning.

[TEWR]

This is assuming the Templars in Ferelden wouldn't swear an oath of fealty to Ferelden's monarch. Remember, they're a part of the best Circle out of them all and Gregoir is a very moderate Templar. It's not impossible for them to not be among the rogue Templars but instead be among the people helping the mages. In this case, they'd still be doing their job.


Regarding Rylock and the Templar plant, it doesn't matter. When Anders became a Grey Warden he was untouchable. But the Chantry couldn't accept that someone had escaped from their grasp 7 times and was finally free. They broke their own acknowledgment when they did that. Grey Warden mages will not be attacked by the Chantry.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What Polaris is suggesting is a pipe dream, caused by his dislike of the Chantry and his hopes for its power reduction. It won't happen. At least not in the way he is imagining.

Wrong.  It's already happening in Act 3 even before the Kirkwall Circle is attacked.  Alistair is openly harboring Apostates and may have declared the Circle of Magi free in open defiance of the Chantry (not just the Templars) and we know that King Maric and Loghain came within a hair of going Church of England themselves.

Having Alistair go "Church of England" on the Divine in order to control magic seems nearly certain at this point and de-facto has already happened.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This is assuming the Templars in Ferelden wouldn't swear an oath of fealty to Ferelden's monarch. Remember, they're a part of the best Circle out of them all and Gregoir is a very moderate Templar. It's not impossible for them to not be among the rogue Templars but instead be among the people helping the mages. In this case, they'd still be doing their job.


Regarding Rylock and the Templar plant, it doesn't matter. When Anders became a Grey Warden he was untouchable. But the Chantry couldn't accept that someone had escaped from their grasp 7 times and was finally free. They broke their own acknowledgment when they did that. Grey Warden mages will not be attacked by the Chantry.

How do you know the Chantry even sent Rylock? She could be acting on her own, trying to avenge her dead friends, for a percieved injustice. Or that Rolan was actually sent by the Templars? Rolan could actually be jsut that, a Templar who had joined the Wardens. It isn't beyond belief that an ex-Templar warden would still be wary of magic and mages, hence why he brought the Templars to stop an abomination. Even the Wardens themselves agreed that they couldn't harbor an abomination.

And Greagoir isn't described as a moderate Templar, quite the contrary actually, he is described as a stern, grim. taciturn and devoted Knight-Commander. "I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them." is hardly the words of a moderate Knight-Commander. And dismantling the Chantry in Ferelden would not make the Templars cahnge anything. They are not part of the Chantry. Removing the CHantry won't make the Templars join Ferelden. Siding with the Tempalrs against the mages would make the Templars join Ferelden.

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What Polaris is suggesting is a pipe dream, caused by his dislike of the Chantry and his hopes for its power reduction. It won't happen. At least not in the way he is imagining.

Wrong.  It's already happening in Act 3 even before the Kirkwall Circle is attacked.  Alistair is openly harboring Apostates and may have declared the Circle of Magi free in open defiance of the Chantry (not just the Templars) and we know that King Maric and Loghain came within a hair of going Church of England themselves.

Having Alistair go "Church of England" on the Divine in order to control magic seems nearly certain at this point and de-facto has already happened.

-Polaris

He harbored three apostates. If you can't see the difference between harboring three apostates, and every apostate in existance, then you need to get your eyes fixed. Being a mage haven during a mage war, will not help Ferelden. It will make them a target, and its own people, who still fear mages, will not like that. Ferelden simply stands to gain so very little, from such a high risk, that only a fool king would ever do it. Harboring two or three apostates can be forgiven, harboring all apostates, not so much.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He harbored three apostates. If you can't see the difference between harboring three apostates, and every apostate in existance, then you need to get your eyes fixed. Being a mage haven during a mage war, will not help Ferelden. It will make them a target, and its own people, who still fear mages, will not like that. Ferelden simply stands to gain so very little, from such a high risk, that only a fool king would ever do it. Harboring two or three apostates can be forgiven, harboring all apostates, not so much.

You are the one that needs to have your eyes and hearing examined.  Alistair went to bat against the chantry, openly talks about the logistics of taking over the circle, openly says that right now he can't do much for mages except outside the tower, AND is willing to openly antangonize the Chantry and KC Meredith over this issue.

This is a LOT more than three apostates.  It's the opening shot in Fereldan nationalizing magic.  As for making Fereldan a target, did you miss the imminent war with Orlais?  The Chantry by it's own past actions has proven that they will always side with Orlais against Fereldan no matter what, so Fereldan is already a target (since the Chantry would attack through Orlais anyway).  Take advantage of some cheap (politically speaking) magical talent that can actually give Fereldan forces an edge.

You are the one that isn't paying attention Emp (and frankly this seems usual).  Fereldan is very much going "Church of Engand" on the Divine.  The only thing lacking as of act 3 is the open declaration.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  As for KC Gregoire going along with it, I think he does.  As long as KC Gregoire gets to continue to protect mages and help regulate magic in Fereldan, he might not like it but I think he'd consider that duty to be above any he owes to the Divine.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 juin 2011 - 04:39 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You can't wage geurilla warfare against another geurilla faction... The Templars are rogue too and doesn't have bases around Thedas for the mages to strike at, nor do they have scheduled patrols for them to ambush. So that whole geurilla warfare strategy goes down the drain. And Velanna didn't cripple a nation at all, she hurt a single trade route going to Amaranthine, and Anders alone only crippled Kirkwall, which isn't a nation either.

Lol rogue doesnt mean that the templars are now fighting guerilla type warstyle. it would also cripple them if they did. 
You obviously never studied military history otherwise you would know that the templars would need extensive bases, supplies and strongpoint to keep operating.

Furthermore if a single person can cripple a city then hundreds or thousands can cripple a nation. I hoped that i didnt need to say it but you cleary have problems with simple logic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

..... And The mages won't need supplies or bases? The mages are presented with the exact same needs as the Templars, and neither of them got any official bases anymore.

I'm sorry but perhaps you should leave this issue to the ones who actually know what they are talking about? The only bases the Templars have had are: The Circles which are lost, and the CHantries, which they left. What bases does that leave them? None. Which supply lines, bases, or patrols does that leave the amges to ambush/cripple? None. Please, go somewhere else and pretend to be clever.

And what the flying f*ck does mages stand to gain by crippling nations?! The Tempalrs aren't a nation, all the mages would gain was more support for the Templars. Brilliant stratagem!!

[Wulfram]

If you're assuming the Templars are without supply lines, bases, patrols and support from the nations, why would you think they are certain to defeat the mages?

In such a situation it wouldn't be a question of "can the mages win", because they already pretty much have - the Templars as a power have been effectively destroyed, and are in no shape to effectively hunt down mages.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..... And The mages won't need supplies or bases? The mages are presented with the exact same needs as the Templars, and neither of them got any official bases anymore.

The mages still have their towers and there are a LOT fewer mages (and thus a lot greater bang per mage) than there are Templars.  Also casting magic doesn't seem to require special materials, and mages don't need metal armor or weapons.  That means that mages don't need a blacksmith, armorer, don't need nearly as many heavy horses to cart supplies (and may not need any dependingt on available magic).  Also becasue mages are lightly armored and armed and need little in the way of supplies, it's a LOT easier for a mage to hide in the local peasentry than it is for a Templar to do so while retaining nearly full combat effectiveness.

I'm sorry but perhaps you should leave this issue to the ones who actually know what they are talking about? The only bases the Templars have had are: The Circles which are lost, and the CHantries, which they left. What bases does that leave them? None. Which supply lines, bases, or patrols does that leave the amges to ambush/cripple? None. Please, go somewhere else and pretend to be clever.

And what the flying f*ck does mages stand to gain by crippling nations?! The Tempalrs aren't a nation, all the mages would gain was more support for the Templars. Brilliant stratagem!!

Actually guerilla attacks could be written off as the actions "of the lunatic fringe" and can be carefully targeted.  Also nobles aren't stupid (well most of them), they know that guerilla tactics can't actually take power away from nobles (but can cripple them).  OTOH, Templars have for a thousand years been essentially trained as an army of occupation and believe you and me the nobles know it......

-POlaris

[Huntress]

Both sides need allies and both sides will get them:

Mages will get nobles whos families members were force to be come tranquils, people who see the unjustice been done to mages for centuries, other circles of mages and apostates from all over thedas. Old magic will be returning to Thedas, not sure what morrigan told my warden about that, I wish I could remember more.

This nobles, arl's have the mens to fight, mages will become the force to drive them to an end, whatever the end is, the ones following the mages belive the maker is with them, they'll have heros, traitors,victimes and fanatic's on their sides, like any army in that time period had.

mages will try to get in tight places so templars or seekers or any enemies have to come in one by one and not been overhelmed. You'll find many mages leader living outside the cities, in caves, hills or small towns.

Templars will get allies, many more than mages because, people are afraid of magic, centuries of indoctrinations about how magic is evil, a curse, ect.
The people helping the templars see the maker is on their side, they'll have heros, victimes, traitors and fanatic's on their side like any army in that time period had.

Who will win? the last standing/ smarter/ the one who win's more people over.

In a battle Mages probably get crushed on 1 vs 20, but if they get men to slow the attackers, they'll rain hell form a far ( i hope not many allies dies lol!) Some templars probably leave and join the mages if they had problems with the order before ( any).

Templars will have mages on their side as well, the ones who were forced to choose sides, lost their lifestyle and believe the templars are right, they will fight against mages who wants to be free.
Templar will have control over cities, town, and many importants trade-roads. the templars army for been huge will need open plains.

Elves.. I don't know what side they'll take and not only city elves, i mean all of them, it depend how much they had to win I suppose, many will choose templars believing in a better life-style on a city, while the dalish leaders been mages themself and wanting freedom will join mages? Who knows.
Now I remember the Chasind they have shaman's not sure if this people will join the mages or just try to take the advantage of war and start killing town folks. farmer for food, live stock and add to the chaos of thedas.

Of course the Qun will take advantage of the confution the war is causing and try to gain ground, if they don't... then the qun are pathetic, very stupid and should be removed from theda by the mages. ( my hawke! please!) lol.

The seekers? who knows, they know in my games, that was Meredith who started the war, not sure what they really want... here am hoping we get more of hawke and The mages/templars war.. yes hoping won't make that happen, I KNOW!

Modifié par Huntress, 26 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[Agamo45]

They have few allies, everyone except Tevinter fears and hates them. The nobles of Thedas all bow to the Chantry in one way or the other, reminiscent of the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.

[nightscrawl]

IanPolaris wrote...

If the first enchanter of the local circle is sane...

-Polaris

Haha... so true. Irving ftw .

[Nightdragon8]

honeslty the only thing the mages need to do to cripple the templars is to stop the lyrium flow. (flash backs of dune with the "the spice must flow") Samson was still useing lyrium dust, why do you think he was selling people into slavery for?? Also he said that you can't kick the stuff, why do you think he wants to so badly get back into the templars. In DA:O Alaster said that it is an addiction, and we where shown the effects of full withdraw, and I do believe he used the term withdraw. So the only places really that the Templars can set up bases would be at points where the supply of Lyrium was strong. They would also set camp up where there woudl be alot of innocents killed. So it would force the mages not to attack.

So the templars would have to have a supply line from thos places. As far as I can tell Mages don't need any of that. They just need normal human stuff, food water, sleep. The longer the war drags on the better off the Mages will be because after awhile sending out Templars for them to be "lost" will start to wear ont he nobles who will keep getting asked to supply men for being Templars. It would be ok at first but a few years down the road. They aren't going to be too happy.

Then you will get an influx of "jail house recuits" which will bolster numbers but will cause problems for the image of the templars.

The second issue would be, what happens when new mages are born. What are th templars going to do with them? Put them intoa tower like they did before or just kill them. Killing the newborns are not really going to go so great... Sure for awhile it will be fine as long as they say being a mage is akin to being a demon. But the noblity wont allow it.

So a prolonged War is in favor for the mages. As long as the mages start using there magic to help people outside the Templar influence. But it will be its own campaign. If you win the minds of the people do to your actions you can make them have serious doubts into what they believe.

Considereing the Templars broke of the chantry, that really does lose alot of credibtly for the templars. Also it seems the Chantry is arming itself so we now have a 3 way War. I would assume that the Chantry will be more of a guardain force for towns and cities. Against both Templars and Mages.

So I think the reason the chantry is looking for Hawke is that he is the only one who really knows what happened, and the reason he did what he did. The Templars are probably saying one thing while the mages another.

As for who will win... really no one. They will more than likly have to come up with a compromise. (with anders out of the picture) that will accutly be plausible. (because at the end of the game if Anders is alive, he seemed to have a more lets kill them all sort of attitude)

[EmperorSahlertz]

The noble families will never side the mages, for the simple reason that the amges pose a dire threat to the nobles' own posistion. It really is that simple. Of course there are going to be a few odd idealistic nobles who are gonna side with the mages of principal reasons, but far the majority will side with the Templars or remain neutral.
The only allies the mages stand a chance to gain are the people, but the people hate and/or fear the mages, so that will have to be a prolonged pr-campaign for them to gain the people's trust. And with the continued pressure from the Templars, more and more mages will turn bad which will ruin their reputation with the people.
The mages have the shorter stick in this conflict, at least when it comes to potential allies. What they do have, is superior firepower. Which can win wars on its own.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..... And The mages won't need supplies or bases? The mages are presented with the exact same needs as the Templars, and neither of them got any official bases anymore.

No because mages have more firepower and can operate in smaller groups. as such they can forage from the land. templars needing larger armies dont have tht advantage. and even if they did that they still need to protect their lyrium routes.

as sun tzu said: the basis of military deployment approaches the formless. if its formless no spy can discern it nor the wise make plans against it. i suggest you read it.

I'm sorry but perhaps you should leave this issue to the ones who actually know what they are talking about? The only bases the Templars have had are: The Circles which are lost, and the CHantries, which they left. What bases does that leave them? None. Which supply lines, bases, or patrols does that leave the amges to ambush/cripple? None. Please, go somewhere else and pretend to be clever.

What you describe would mean that the templars will cease to function as a fighting force. most templars will die out of starvation desert or will be under affects of lyrium withdrawal


And what the flying f*ck does mages stand to gain by crippling nations?! The Tempalrs aren't a nation, all the mages would gain was more support for the Templars. Brilliant stratagem!!

Because templars will need supplies. If they cannot procure it they will need to conviscate from  the local peasants (happend a lot in medieval times) this will sen the common population agaisnt the templars.
Once you cripple a country most people will not care who is fighting as long as it finished quickly.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 26 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The noble families will never side the mages, for the simple reason that the amges pose a dire threat to the nobles' own posistion. It really is that simple. Of course there are going to be a few odd idealistic nobles who are gonna side with the mages of principal reasons, but far the majority will side with the Templars or remain neutral.

This is complete rubbish and in fact almost gets it backwards.  As a small group with extraordinary abilities, mages are anything but a threat to nobility.  Indeed in Tevinter they are the nobility.  Even setting aside Tevinter, a small group of people unless they have godlike powers (PC Warden, Flemeth, maybe Hawke) aren't going to be able to overthrow, take, and then hold an entire holding on their own.  Given their individual power, small numbers, and dependance on others for at least fiscal support, mages make a very natural ally for nobles in much the same way that IRL early scientists and artists made natural allies to nobles (with nobles acting as patrons).  Nobles get even more out of the deal in Thedas because the nobility (certainly the Royalty) for the first time get to completely control in their own lands perhaps the most important force of all:  magic.  There is strong incentive for at the very least the high-noble classes to side (or at least assist) the mages.

The only allies the mages stand a chance to gain are the people, but the people hate and/or fear the mages, so that will have to be a prolonged pr-campaign for them to gain the people's trust. And with the continued pressure from the Templars, more and more mages will turn bad which will ruin their reputation with the people.
The mages have the shorter stick in this conflict, at least when it comes to potential allies. What they do have, is superior firepower. Which can win wars on its own.

In Thedas the people don't count.  That's been made almost brutally clear for a while now, and the opinions of the people have been irrevokably stained by a thousand years of Chantry domination.  Even so, most peasenty in Thedas in it's current state accepts (sometimes grudgingly but they accept) the political direction of the noble class, especially "their" local nobles (that's esp true in Fereldan).  That doesn't mean the commoners will ever love mages (at least not in the short term), but if the King (or nobility) decide to relax the rules on mages, the commoners WILL go along.

-Polaris

[Huntress]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The noble families will never side the mages, for the simple reason that the amges pose a dire threat to the nobles' own posistion. It really is that simple. Of course there are going to be a few odd idealistic nobles who are gonna side with the mages of principal reasons, but far the majority will side with the Templars or remain neutral.
The only allies the mages stand a chance to gain are the people, but the people hate and/or fear the mages, so that will have to be a prolonged pr-campaign for them to gain the people's trust. And with the continued pressure from the Templars, more and more mages will turn bad which will ruin their reputation with the people.
The mages have the shorter stick in this conflict, at least when it comes to potential allies. What they do have, is superior firepower. Which can win wars on its own.

Could you please MAKE UP your're mind.. will nobles side or not?. I stoped reading when the babling started.
am sorry.

Modifié par Huntress, 26 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[DPSSOC]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The noble families will never side the mages, for the simple reason that the amges pose a dire threat to the nobles' own posistion. It really is that simple. Of course there are going to be a few odd idealistic nobles who are gonna side with the mages of principal reasons, but far the majority will side with the Templars or remain neutral.

This is complete rubbish and in fact almost gets it backwards.  As a small group with extraordinary abilities, mages are anything but a threat to nobility.  Indeed in Tevinter they are the nobility.

And there ladies and gentlemen we have our threat.  When the Tevinter mages were first given slack they were not the nobility, however over time they rebuilt their power base and now they rule once more.  Any noble in Thedas would recognize that given freedom there's nothing to stop the mages from doing the same elsewhere.  That's a big part of what's kept the mages down for so long, the very real threat of creating another group of magisters.

[Huntress]

DPSSOC wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The noble families will never side the mages, for the simple reason that the amges pose a dire threat to the nobles' own posistion. It really is that simple. Of course there are going to be a few odd idealistic nobles who are gonna side with the mages of principal reasons, but far the majority will side with the Templars or remain neutral.

This is complete rubbish and in fact almost gets it backwards.  As a small group with extraordinary abilities, mages are anything but a threat to nobility.  Indeed in Tevinter they are the nobility.

And there ladies and gentlemen we have our threat.  When the Tevinter mages were first given slack they were not the nobility, however over time they rebuilt their power base and now they rule once more.  Any noble in Thedas would recognize that given freedom there's nothing to stop the mages from doing the same elsewhere.  That's a big part of what's kept the mages down for so long, the very real threat of creating another group of magisters.

Life is under threat since it was form.. We die.. thats life threat, death.

Now, is true some mages will want to get power and hurt people to get it, and some people will hurt everyone to gain power.. do you see what I mean?
Not need to be a mage to hurt people, anyone one with the power/wants/needs/sick/young/old can hurt others, and this person will do the job just as a mage would, without been a mage him/herself.

Any way I do not see life  white or black not even as rose colour, I just know that for every evil person that is born, One is born  to stop it.. Thast balance, thats what DA2 is missing, the balance of things.

Modifié par Huntress, 26 juin 2011 - 05:22 .