11 réponses à ce sujet

[MrZork]

This is pretty much a semi-random question about a standard Bioware item available in the OC.

In chapter one, Marrok will craft Chromatic Breastplate +1 that is a +1 armor with 10 points of resistance to fire, cold, and electrical damage. Pretty nice armor (and handy in a couple of places).

In chapter 3, Barun Silverblade will craft "Chromatic Breastplate +3" that is +3 armor with extra properties of +2 AC versus dragons and elementals. Obviously, those item properties make it seem pretty likely that the builder made a mistake; functionally, this item is just a +3 breastplate (with no added benefit versus dragons or elementals). I suspect that the intent was to make the total armor bonus +5 versus dragons and elementals, but someone forgot that armor bonuses don't stack.

Any thoughts on the best fix for this? (Yes, one could just ignore the item and that's fine. But I thought it would be a little better if Barun weren't crafting something no one would want to pay for.) The obvious choice might be to go with what was almost certainly the intent and make the armor +3, +5 versus dragons and elementals.

But, it would also be a nice item if Barun simply built on the theme (as most of his items do) of Marrok's item and created +3 breastplate with elemental resistance, maybe 15 points of fire, cold, and electrical. I kind of prefer the elemental resistance. It's useful to characters who otherwise may not have great buffs, but it's not too uber and (since it's base AC 6 armor) still forces some sort of compromise between the better overall AC the characters can find on other armors and the damage resistance.

[Shadooow]

Nice catch, ill definitelly add this into my patch. As for whats better, it also depends on cost/lvl req of the item. I dont know now but +3ac +5dragon/elementals might require much more higher lvl than character could be in that time.

What level are you?

[jmlzemaggo]

I see that commun mistake every where, even in many "expert" modules:
Armor +3, +2 against undeads
Weapon +13, + 13 against elementals...
What it really does, it just makes them more expensive I suppose.
And for nothing.
I thought that way myself until recently... 
Fun.

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 19 juin 2011 - 12:17 .

[MrZork]

Yes, ILR is another consideration. The character I am currently taking through started chapter three at level 14, which I think is fairly typical. So, the armor with +5 AC versus dragons and elementals would not be usable with ILR until level 16.

The game's overvaluing of items with multiple properties that aren't very orthogonal (e.g. it's obviously pretty dumb that this +3/+5 armor costs more than a plain +5 breastplate) is another reason to prefer the elemental resistance variation on this item. The second option I described above (+3 armor with 15 points of resistance for fire, cold, and electricity) would be usable by a level 13 character.

[MrZork]

jmlzemaggo, I agree that those mistakes are common. They aren't especially prevalent in BW's modules, though the example that always comes to mind is the Holy Avenger longsword from SoU. It has the +2 enhancement item property along with the holy avenger property, even though the HA property makes the sword +2 for non-paladins anyway. Effectively, the +2 enhancement property serves to make the item cost more, since it changes nothing in terms of combat. Admittedly, the HA property is probably too cheap anyway...

It's too bad that the game's cost calculations can't help out a bit by not overpricing items like that. But, that would be a nightmare to work out even a small set of rules that dealt with property combinations. I guess the builder just has to be careful. At least with CEP the option is there to lower the value of an item.

[Shadooow]

Well my patch has item cost adjust property too (and better cos invisible) so the +5dragon/elementals would be possible to make for lvl 13, however is there any IC explanation why the +3 version has different bonuses like +1 have? what about other items in the same smith, does they also differ throug their lesser versions?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 juin 2011 - 01:09 .

[MrZork]

More costing flexibility is a nice addition to the patch.

Most of Barun's chapter 3 items are variations on Marrok's chapter 1 items, generally improved in ways that are pretty obvious extensions of the properties of their lesser brethren. The Chromatic Breastplate is one of the few (perhaps the only one?) that doesn't follow the pattern pretty closely. I don't recall any in-game explanation of why it should be different.

Modifié par MrZork, 19 juin 2011 - 01:23 .

[Shadooow]

Then i think it would be better to unite this armor with its lesser version than use +5dragon/elemental and cost reduction.

[HipMaestro]

Then again, perhaps the designer actually intended the AC to adopt a penalty (-1AC from base) against just those two monster categories for some reason (your guess is as good as mine).  I see item prop "mistakes" of this kind occasionally, mostly with undead modifiers, also questioning the intent.  But who can really say?

[MrZork]

I suppose it's possible that a penalty was intended, though I'm not sure it would make all that much sense for the smith to be selling a nerfed +3 breastplate for 20,000 gold, plus the cost of the diamond and +1 breastplate components...

I think that Barun offering an an upgraded version of Marrok's armor (+3 armor with 15 points of cold, electrical, and fire resistance) makes the most sense here. I am going to modify the script so that's what happens.

[Shadooow]

HipMaestro wrote...

Then again, perhaps the designer actually intended the AC to adopt a penalty (-1AC from base) against just those two monster categories for some reason (your guess is as good as mine).  I see item prop "mistakes" of this kind occasionally, mostly with undead modifiers, also questioning the intent.  But who can really say?

That however doesnt make any sense. At least not to me.

Btw I just looked into nwn default palette and there is chromatic breastplate +1(stats like MrZork said) and then Chromatic breastplate +3 which is +3 and 10/- cold, electrical and fire.

So I think its pretty clear what was intend. What isnt clear is why the script at smith doesnt spawn this armor from palette instead and why its bugged the way it is. But fix is obvious now, isnt it?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 19 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[HipMaestro]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
... That however doesnt make any sense. At least not to me.

TBH, it was just a stab at a possible reason.  Doesn't make much sense to me either, but perhaps this may:
+5 AC against dragons and elementals would be a cost of over 56K while the +2 sets it just about 20K. 

So the designer probably was trying to keep the costs in line with what was anticipated to be a reasonable crafting fee though the penalty effect does not seem warranted.  There are several of these crafted items that contain props that produce a much higher value than the crafting charge though none quite as high as the +5 racial chromatic armor.

The items crafted in chapter 1 using the value of the components ALWAYS nets a significant profit so it is worth crafting every one possible and then selling it or using it.  However, none of the items in chapter 3 can be sold for a profit.  You can check, but the crafting fee is set too high to make it profitable, IIRC

That is the last stab attempt to rationalize the original intent, though.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 20 juin 2011 - 02:28 .