1035 réponses à ce sujet

[kathic]

In my regular play though she is. In my Renegade play through Tali is now.

[whywhywhywhy]

I think it'll take some work on her part. If forced to work with her (she needs to do something critical) I'll choose every renegade option I can with her.

[redbaron76]

It will take work on both shepard's and ashley's parts to make this work. I think the whole horizon thing was created by bioware for single purpose of creating a spectacular scenes between shepard and ashley in regards to their romance. Both of them have some issues to resolve with each other and to figure out where they stand.

[whywhywhywhy]

redbaron76 wrote...

It will take work on both shepard's and ashley's parts to make this work. I think the whole horizon thing was created by bioware for single purpose of creating a spectacular scenes between shepard and ashley in regards to their romance. Both of them have some issues to resolve with each other and to figure out where they stand.

Only on my exploration play through.(5th)  Other then that Ash doesn't matter to me until BW gives us more to go on.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 28 juillet 2011 - 09:09 .

[knightnblu]

I still cannot fathom how anything, other than masses of dead Collectors, could be Shepard's fault on Horizon. Correct me if I am wrong, but Shepard never called Williams a traitor, he never suggested that the Alliance had thrown her a bone and now she was their puppet with their hand up her backside, he never said that Williams betrayed him. So what did he do?

I submit that there isn't anything that he could have said to her because the well had already been poisoned. He could have been a silver tongued devil with the gift of blarney and she would not have listened to him. She was pissed off at him from the get go. If she started off pissed, do you really believe that she was going to listen to anything he said? I don't think so, because her mind was already made up before she even saw him.

So please explain to me how anybody could figure that this is all Shepard's fault. Because I obviously don't get it.

[redbaron76]

He did not contact her and let her know that he was alive, that is shepards fault. He is working with cerberus that is shepards fault. He did not explain to ashley that is his fault also. Even if her mind was made up shepard should have been a b etter man and explained it to her. But he did not.

[Dirchy]

I did make a playthrough for going through staying faithful to Ashley, however since they made Tali a LI in ME2, my cannon Shep moved on and went for Tali. I think there's a lot more depth to Tali and also Jack as LI, I just don't like Jack as a character, so other than playing it once to say I'd done it I didn't do it again

[wilhelm Screamer]

Short answer: No

Long answer: she got really acquainted with that bomb.

[Made Nightwing]

wilhelm Screamer wrote...

Short answer: No

Long answer: she got really acquainted with that bomb.

The bomb joke was only funny the first thousand times.

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...
 
He did not contact her and let her know that he was alive, that is shepards fault. He is working with cerberus that is shepards fault. He did not explain to ashley that is his fault also. Even if her mind was made up shepard should have been a b etter man and explained it to her. But he did not.

 
First, Shepard was dead. Last I heard, dead people don't give you a ring to tell you they are dead. They don't send cards and they don't write either. The dead really are inconsiderate that way, but they are dead so you really can't blame them for it either.
 
When Shepard was revived by Cerberus, the damage had already been done. TIM poisoned all of his previous relationships by destroying the trust that they had placed in him before he ever moved his resurrected butt off of the table. When he arrived at the Citadel, he tried to speak to Anderson about Williams, but was essentially told nothing. Ashley was working on assignment in the field and Anderson wasn't going to pass along any messages. Why? To maintain operational secrecy because Williams was on a covert mission. Therefore, how was it Shepard's fault for not contacting Williams?
 
A new promotion to Operations Chief meant a new assignment and her mailing address would have changed. While I guess that Shepard could have employed an information broker to look it up for him, tell me where he would have found one of those before landing on Illium? Also, Ish was nowhere to be found on Omega until much later than Horizon. I guess he also could have consulted TIM for contact info, but if TIM had undermined all of his previous contacts in order to isolate Shepard from his support, what was in it for him to be forthcoming? Wouldn't that undermine TIM's control of Shepard by providing him the very thing that TIM wanted to eliminate? Wouldn't a line of contact to Williams have penetrated the wall Cerberus had erected between Shepard and his former allies? How sure would TIM's control of Shepard be if he could speak freely with Williams? Frankly, I can't see TIM risking it.
 
Further, how is working for Cerberus Shepard's fault? Are you advocating that he should have told TIM to shove his request up his hind parts and rotate on it and then leave? Where would he have gone? As I mentioned before, TIM has already undermined the trust of everybody Shepard had associated with previously. If it hadn't been for Anderson, the Council would have executed him for treason. Despite this, even Anderson no longer fully trusts Shepard. Therefore, Anderson would never employ Shepard given the rumors about Shep's connection to Cerberus.
 
Shepard could have tried to go back to the Alliance, but that wouldn't work either. The Alliance would have interrogated him for six months before letting him go if he did exactly what they told him to do and told them everything that they wanted to know. How much do you want to bet that the Alliance would never believe that Cerberus had spent four billion credits to bring back one man? That single snag could call Shepard's entire story into question thus extending his stay at the Alliance detention center for months more with the interrogation shifting toward interrogating a hostile. But if Shepard had gone that route, how many more colonists would have been turned into gray goo by the Collectors? Would there even be any colonies left? Shepard certainly couldn't have stopped the Reapers during Arrival, bringing the Reapers to Earth and the whole galaxy six to twelve months earlier.
 
I guess that Shepard could have started his own merc band in the Terminus, but where would he get the funds to buy a ship that could stand against the collectors? You would be amazed at what being dead does to your credit rating, so I doubt that he could have obtained financing. In fact, without Cerberus' support, he would not have met Mordin and he would not have gotten the countermeasure to the Collector Swarms. So how long would he have lasted on his first engagement with them? Not long, I think. Shepard would have encountered the Collectors and been killed just as quickly as when the SR1 went down in flames.
 
Finally, Ashley's mind was indeed made up before she ever laid eyes on Shepard. She believed the rumors over her personal knowledge of the man. Stop and think about that for a second. Imagine if some stranger had told you that your significant other had been having sack time with somebody else. Do you just rush right on over to your significant other and accuse them of infidelity as soon as they say that they work with the person you asked about?
 
Ashley NEVER gives Shepard an honest ear. She's fuming as soon as she sees him, accuses him of being a weak minded lackey for Cerberus and to top it all off she calls him a liar and a traitor to boot before taking off and according to you, Shepard needs to man up and beg for HER forgiveness. Riiiiiiight.
 
Shepard has saved Williams' life three times, with the most recent save occurring right before she tears into him on Horizon. Maybe its me, but I would have thought that she could at least have said thank you. You say thank you when somebody holds the door for you, how much more are you indebted for someone saving your life? If it had of been me, I would have thanked him and sent him a card with a gift certificate for two to a nice restaurant at a bare minimum. Ashley just expected him to do it and chews him out. That's just ungrateful and speaks to her questionable character, but I digress.
 
If Ashley was your LI, you get a lukewarm apology in you email saying that she is sorry for what she said on Horizon. Really? An email apology? That's the best that she can do? She was woman enough to b!tch me out, but she just sends a tepid and vague apology for eviscerating me and impugning my honor after just saving her ass from the Collectors by email? What's that all about? If Ashley wants my forgiveness, she is going to have to do a lot better than that. Otherwise, she can GTFOMS because being hot does not excuse bad behavior.
 
I just don't see how you are going to convince me that anything that happened on Horizon was Shepard's fault. If Shep would have broken sh!tty with her first, or resorted to ad hominems, or said something mean to her, I would be right there with you demanding that Shepard apologize for being a boor. But it was Williams who proved to be boorish, not Shepard.

[Made Nightwing]

I have reached one irrefutable conclusion from this thread and others like it: We are getting nowhere. Those who want to give Ash a fair go in ME3 are going to give Ash a fair go. For those whom reconciliation is impossible, it is impossible. Nothing anyone says is going to change anyones mind.

No amount of wall of text opinions from knightblu and whywhywhywhy are going to alter redbaron's perspective, and vice versa. We're all RPing differently, as we are all individuals.

[knightnblu]

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

I dunno, some of us like that she took a level in her own self-esteem.

I would also disagree. While the logic may be perfectly sound to you, others may see the character in a different way, rendering your argument invalid to them. Like I said, we are all individuals.

[AVPen]

Made Nightwing wrote...

wilhelm Screamer wrote...

Short answer: No

Long answer: she got really acquainted with that bomb.

The bomb joke was only funny the first thousand times.

Perhaps so, but I still got a chuckle from that one.

Modifié par AVPen, 29 juillet 2011 - 04:55 .

[BiasedParagon]

Let's just say this.

She's now expendable.

[Zubie]

knightnblu wrote...

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

no self-esteem it is then! 

[Made Nightwing]

easygame88 wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

no self-esteem it is then! 

Come to think of it, that song also applies to Ashley's relationship with the Alliance, pre-ME1. You know what? I'm gonna leave a lot of the alliance Brass to the Reapers. Apart from Hackett and Mikhailovich of course.

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

I dunno, some of us like that she took a level in her own self-esteem.

I would also disagree. While the logic may be perfectly sound to you, others may see the character in a different way, rendering your argument invalid to them. Like I said, we are all individuals.

While I most certainly concur with your assessment of individuality, I disagree with your statement on the validity of an argument. For example, if I said that 2+2=5 you would immediately correct me because my conclusion is in error. If I stated that 5 was correct for extremely large values of 2, you would say the same and be right to do so.
 
While assertions regarding interpretations of storylines can indeed be varied, conclusions drawn from facts cannot. Just as 2+2=4 and not 3.999999 or 4.000001. What I assert are facts or conclusions drawn of premises that are taken to be true. We are not speaking of symbolic meanings, but of facts. If one were to accept the fact that Ashley disapproved of Shepard on Horizon, then one must also accept that Shepard was wrong, that Ashley was wrong, or that both were wrong. One cannot however, say that nobody was wrong because the originating premise would have to be false in order to accommodate that conclusion as true.
 
But, if one were to say that they "felt" that Ashley were in the right, then there really is no counterargument for that because the frame of reference has changed to the abstract. If however, one says that Ashley were in the right for "x" or "y" reason, then the reason can most certainly be disputed. Therefore, any statement that the reasoning does not matter secondary to individualism is a faulty one because reasoning is not abstract.
 
Humans would rather make a judgment based on sound reasoning rather than on pure emotion however, and few will actually say, "I feel that Ashley is in the right." Therefore, they must place the blame on Shepard in order to validate their opinion of Williams. In essence, Shepard is wrong because he has to be so in order to substantiate their premise and not because he actually did anything wrong.
 
I think that this is where the contention comes in, because people do not want to admit that their support of Ashley is based on emotion and not on fact. Otherwise, the weight of the counterarguments would have some effect upon their positions.
 
That's my .02 for what its worth.

[Zubie]

Yeah we know you've only been saying the same thing for 14 pages

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

Hence Shepard's new theme song from The Offspring entitled "Self Esteem" posted previously for those who will date Williams regardless.

And while a wall of text my post may be, the reasoning is nevertheless sound

I dunno, some of us like that she took a level in her own self-esteem.

I would also disagree. While the logic may be perfectly sound to you, others may see the character in a different way, rendering your argument invalid to them. Like I said, we are all individuals.

While I most certainly concur with your assessment of individuality, I disagree with your statement on the validity of an argument. For example, if I said that 2+2=5 you would immediately correct me because my conclusion is in error. If I stated that 5 was correct for extremely large values of 2, you would say the same and be right to do so.
 
While assertions regarding interpretations of storylines can indeed be varied, conclusions drawn from facts cannot. Just as 2+2=4 and not 3.999999 or 4.000001. What I assert are facts or conclusions drawn of premises that are taken to be true. We are not speaking of symbolic meanings, but of facts. If one were to accept the fact that Ashley disapproved of Shepard on Horizon, then one must also accept that Shepard was wrong, that Ashley was wrong, or that both were wrong. One cannot however, say that nobody was wrong because the originating premise would have to be false in order to accommodate that conclusion as true.
 
But, if one were to say that they "felt" that Ashley were in the right, then there really is no counterargument for that because the frame of reference has changed to the abstract. If however, one says that Ashley were in the right for "x" or "y" reason, then the reason can most certainly be disputed. Therefore, any statement that the reasoning does not matter secondary to individualism is a faulty one because reasoning is not abstract.
 
Humans would rather make a judgment based on sound reasoning rather than on pure emotion however, and few will actually say, "I feel that Ashley is in the right." Therefore, they must place the blame on Shepard in order to validate their opinion of Williams. In essence, Shepard is wrong because he has to be so in order to substantiate their premise and not because he actually did anything wrong.
 
I think that this is where the contention comes in, because people do not want to admit that their support of Ashley is based on emotion and not on fact. Otherwise, the weight of the counterarguments would have some effect upon their positions.
 
That's my .02 for what its worth.

Good assessment, but it is inadvisable to compare mathematics to people and circumstances. Mathematics has an element of certainty to it. People and circumstances do not. For instance, on Horizon, Shepard was right and Ashley was wrong. That cannot be disupted, and I'm not arguing with it.

But Ashley's perspective can be perceived as being brutally honest, and being worthy of admiration due to her convictions. You don't see it as such, because you believe that in order for Ashley to be right, Shepard must be wrong. You don't need to think someone is right or wrong in order to sympathise/agree/forgive them for it.

I perceive the circumstances to be slightly more complicated. Shepard was working with Cerberus, under the precept that he needed to dance with the devil in order to complete his objective. This is fine. But, Ashley is the type of person who would never take that option, and she expresses this, 'I'll never work with Cerberus'. This is also fine, and very in character for Ash. Personally, I'm just glad she didn't get a personality transplant.

Again, it's just my opinion. It's different to yours and neither of us is likely to change that. No argument is flawless, foolproof or valid to everyone. That is a philosophical impossibility.

[ubermensch007]

Okay -- I have a few more things to say about that "Hey there" email from Ash.

I still play Mass Effect 2 and I was playing it for a bit yesterday.Shep and Miri were having a very intense moment.She asked Shep to promise her that he won't die.And (my) Shep said, (paraphrasing) "That is not a promise that I can keep."

When I was seeing all this take place before my eyes.I was hit again by how I felt the first time playing ME 2.And how I was almost sure that Commander Shepard was going to die for good in this game.

Now for the sake of argument -- Suppose Shepard did die during the Suicide Mission -- and what all that transpired leading up to his death was discoverd.His encounter with the Virmire Survivor and so forth.For there were surely colonist ton Horizon who overheard Operations Chief Ashley Williams 'biting his head off'. <_< And hearing Shepard ask her to help him defeat 'the greatest threat to spacefaring humanity that they have ever encountered' (As the Illusive Man put it) .And  they also heard her refusal to assist him.Later on.The email she sent him is discovered.People also recall that she was once one of his most trusted and reliable comrades and they were also once intimate.

Well now -- Wouldn't Ashley sort of be reviled by later generations as a traitor and Deliah woman.Who turned her back on the man that she loved.Messed up his head with her emotional tirades and mindgames.And (probably) got him killed!?

Wouldn't Ashley, blame herself (right or wrong) and feel as though she 'SHOULD' have been by Shepard's side? She 'SHOULD' have had his back?

If Shepard died during the Suicide Mission.Wouldn't Ashley Williams have been disgraced to a greater extent than her grandfather ever was?!

No. Kinda sounds like she's gotta mission of her own *coughBatarianOrbitalMirrorcough* and she's wishing you luck.

M.N. that ain't nothing but SPECULATION But even if it's true...

Meh <_<

Modifié par ubermensch007, 29 juillet 2011 - 06:50 .

[Iakus]

 AN excerpt of a post I wrote on another thread a few days ago that seems appropriate here:

 The entire scene takes on an air of unreality.  I can't understand why the VS goes off on Shepard the way he/she does when they already know from firsthand experience what carzy sh...stuff Shepard has done in the past to save the galaxy.  The only way I feel it can be resolved in a way that makes any sense at all is if something else is going on that Shepard (and maybe the VS) don't know about.  Otherwise, it's  simply bad, bad writing.

I for one found Ash to be probably the best character in Mass Effect.  At least, in Mass Effect 1.   Thus I'm unwilling to completely write her off after one bad scene in one mediocre game.  I'm hoping there is something going on the player is not aware of.And the writers simply dropped the ball concerning it.  For the sake of ME1, I will hear whatever explanation is given in ME3.  I will rise above the bad writing.  I will be better than Ash.  Better than Kaidan.  Better than the writers.  I will wait until I have all the facts.

And most of all, I will hope there is an explanation that makes sense.  It may be an uphill fight, but as the saying goes, "Ash is worth it"

ME1 Ash is, at least.

[Vexed Forest]

Yes. Ashley is my favorite LI. I actually liked the poetry. I hope that having dinner with Kelly isn't considered cheating.