1035 réponses à ce sujet

[darthnick427]

Nope. never was. never will

[Made Nightwing]

jreezy wrote...

The emotional support Ashley receives is astounding. I don't even think Ashley herself would question Shepard's motives as much as some people on this thread have. Compared to the comments here I've learned that Ashley's words on Horizon were pretty sound. I can't wait for Mass Effect 3.

When riled up, Ash fans can be just as vocal as Talimancers

[Quething]

ArcticMan94 wrote...

No.

The statement implies I was the dominant partner.

Heh. This. Not mine, no. MainShep was, and remains, hers. 

Modifié par Quething, 02 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

My Shepard doesn't care if Ashley has moved on or whatever. He will do whatever it takes to win her back.

[Gregolian]

Sorta.... if she still acts like she has a stick up her backside in ME3 then no.

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote...

redbaron76 - Ok, so instead of war crimes we'll just go with multiple counts of terrorism, 3 counts of treason, AWOL, destruction of military property, 20 counts of premeditated murder, conspiracy, conduct unbecoming, continuing criminal enterprise, and fraud. As Shepard is not dead, he conspired to destroy the Normandy SR1 in order to fake his own death because he had to sell out his ship's location to the attacking vessel in order to destroy it. (Treason count 1) As such, he scuttled the ship resulting in the deaths of 20 crewmen under his direct command, hence the premeditated murder counts. Because he didn't act alone and the attack required some degree of planning, now we have the conspiracy charge. Terrorism fits better for the mass murder of 304K+ Batarians and Shepard has already admitted to working with Cerberus which is a known terrorist organization and which is suspected of feeding colonists to the Collectors by the tens of thousands (treason count 2). Shepard's alleged crimes produce the conduct unbecoming charge. Faking his own death results in the fraud charge secondary to the payout of life insurance benefits to his beneficiaries. Finally, we arrive at dereliction of duty (Spectre and Captain of the Normandy SR1) and the betrayal of the Citadel Council (treason count 3). With that line up, Shepard isn't looking at spending decades behind bars, he will be on trial for his life.
 
The Council will cut him loose so quick it will make his head spin, clearing the way for his trial and execution on conviction because he is no longer a Spectre. Who's the best witness to detail the high points of Shepard's various and sundry crimes? Why, it's Alliance Lieutenant Ashley Madeline Williams (It was late, I wasn't sure, so I took a guess, cut me some slack). Any prosecutor worth his salt would call her to the stand and treat her as a hostile witness in order to prove his case. The fact that she slept with Shepard enhances the value of her testimony because it is evident that she does not wish to give inculpatory statements against him. The prosecutor has leverage because if she doesn't give accurate testimony, she can be charged with perjury, demoted, and dishonorably discharged from the Alliance Marines adding yet another stain upon the Williams name. How much you want to bet she will never do that, even for Shepard? She sure as hell didn't stand by him on Horizon, why would she in a military tribunal with her career and reputation on the line? But I do not see her lying about Shepard either because she doesn't have to. The truth is damning enough when looked at from a certain point of view.
 
As far as the trial is concerned, all you really need is a military tribunal with all of the personnel involved having the appropriate clearances for classified intel. The details and testimony are secret and the conviction is final. This was done at Nuremburg and similar to what was proposed for Gitmo. I wouldn't be surprised if Shepard spent the six months to a year between ME2 and ME3 on ice in a military prison waiting for the tribunal to begin, which is yet another eerie coincidence with Williams' grandfather. Sometimes I think that BioWare is intentionally returning to that meme, substituting Shepard for General Williams.
 
If I were Shepard, I'd be writing out my will because there is no way that I can ever prove my innocence because all I have is my word. The Council and the Alliance no longer trusts me, Ashley has sold me down the river, all the evidence from Cerberus is tainted because of the source and that's providing that I can even get my hands on any of it in the first place, there are a number of potential witnesses to my act of terror who escaped from the Arrival base and who are indoctrinated, but are nevertheless Alliance deep cover operatives whose word will trump mine, and I am running around on a Cerberus copy of the Normandy SR1 in a Cerberus uniform with a Cerberus crew in a galaxy that has been heavily tainted by TIM's rumors. Good times. My only hope is that the Reapers invade Earth thereby saving my hind end from being barbequed in molasses by the Alliance. But what are the odds of that?
 
Hmmm.....what's that up in the sky? Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! It's the Reapers! Sometimes, you do get lucky. Think I'll go buy a lottery ticket.

Damn it knightnblu -- You said some stuff in your post here that I was going to say in mine.But I had to go to work, so I couldn't write it. But I'm still going to say what I was going to say, either here or in the Restoring Trust with VS thread For right now, all I'll say is,"As bad as it looks for Commander Shepard, even if the Reapers did not  conveniently show up during his trial.He doesn't have to "prove his innocence".There is a way that all the charges against him (that you have listed above) could be droped and he wouldn't spend a day in jail..."

Shepard: Excuse me? May I please have a word with the Alliance represenative of this trial?

Alliance Rep: What do you want Shepard?!

Shepard: What do I want? Hmm... Welll -- you see here's the thing.Not that long ago.I came into some very damaging intel about the Alliance.Intel so provocative, shocking and untoward.That it has been said that if the Citadel Council found out about it.The Alliance would have alot of explaining to do...If you think I'm just making all this up to try and save my ass.I'll be more than willing to give you an demonstration -- a sample of how much damage I can do to Alliance interest! Have you ever heard of Keiji's Grey Box?

You probably haven't.Such knowledge as this is more than likely, waaaaaaaay above your pay-grade.But in any case... I have left instructions with an asscociate of mine.Who owes me a great favor.(Kasumi Goto) And if my demands are not met.Within 24 hours.The Batarian Hegemony is going to be the last of your worries!!

Alliance Rep: What are your demands Shepard?!

Shepard: Your going to drop these charges against me.Your going to return my ship to me! And your going to let me go... Make-up whatever story you have too.You people are good at that.But Get IT Done -- NOW...

This is Renegade Shepard  at his finest...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 03 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[Sepewrath]

I have a Sentinel who was "loyal"

[knightnblu]

iakus wrote...
 
knightnblu wrote...
 
 
(Treason count 1) As such, he scuttled the ship resulting in the deaths of 20 crewmen under his direct command, hence the premeditated murder counts. Because he didn't act alone and the attack required some degree of planning, now we have the conspiracy charge
 
 
Not likely to be proven, and Ash certainly can't help the prosecution there save to confirm Shep was on the SR1 and again on Horizon. Shep woul dmost likely use the "I really was dead" defense which will require investigation into the Lazarus Project. The strength of the defense will largely depend on what kind of information can be gleaned from medical scans and investigating SHep's cybernetics, plus any records of teh Lazarus PRoject on the SR2, possibly including notes from Mordin, CHakwas, or Miranda. Either way, Ash can't help with that, for or against.
 
What Ash could probably do for the defense is provide any data the GARDIAN tower did of the Collector Ship. It could potentially confirm that it was indeed the same ship that attacked the Normandy.  Given Shep was atually fighting the Collectors and drove them off, it would be hard to show SHep was responsible for the colony disappearances. IT in fact establishes SHep and the COllectors as enemies; Shep was a target.
 
 
Terrorism fits better for the mass murder of 304K+ Batarians and Shepard has already admitted to working with Cerberus which is a known terrorist organization and which is suspected of feeding colonists to the Collectors by the tens of thousands (treason count 2).
 
 
 
The batarian charge will be a real hurdle to beat, but Ash had zero to do with it. She's unlikely to testify save perhaps as a character witness.
 
Killing colonists? Horizon pretty definitvely shows Shep and Cerberus were not responsble, barring a truly elaborate setup.  Ash and other paralyzed colonists will be able to personally testify to that. Not outside the realm of possibility, but pretty fantastic.
 
In addition, Shepard is not a member of Cerberus, but was allied with them temporarilly. If Shepard becomes a Spectre again, he is also working with them with the tacit permission of the Council.
 

Shepard's alleged crimes produce the conduct unbecoming charge. Faking his own death results in the fraud charge secondary to the payout of life insurance benefits to his beneficiaries. Finally, we arrive at dereliction of duty (Spectre and Captain of the Normandy SR1) and the betrayal of the Citadel Council (treason count 3). With that line up, Shepard isn't looking at spending decades behind bars, he will be on trial for his life.

 
"I was dead" See above
 

The Council will cut him loose so quick it will make his head spin, clearing the way for his trial and execution on conviction because he is no longer a Spectre. Who's the best witness to detail the high points of Shepard's various and sundry crimes? Why, it's Alliance Lieutenant Ashley Madeline Williams (It was late, I wasn't sure, so I took a guess, cut me some slack). Any prosecutor worth his salt would call her to the stand and treat her as a hostile witness in order to prove his case. The fact that she slept with Shepard enhances the value of her testimony because it is evident that she does not wish to give inculpatory statements against him. The prosecutor has leverage because if she doesn't give accurate testimony, she can be charged with perjury, demoted, and dishonorably discharged from the Alliance Marines adding yet another stain upon the Williams name. How much you want to bet she will never do that, even for Shepard? She sure as hell didn't stand by him on Horizon, why would she in a military tribunal with her career and reputation on the line? But I do not see her lying about Shepard either because she doesn't have to. The truth is damning enough when looked at from a certain point of view.

 
1) If Anderson is on the Council, he won't stand for this treatment of Shepard.
2) Ash would only be able to testify to Shepard's actions during ME1 and Horizon. Plus maybe the rumors about Shep working with Cerberus. As posted yesterday, her testimony of Horizon could go either way, depending on the questions asked
3) Many Shepards did not romance Ash, and few likely are aware if he did. If anything the fact that Shepard saved her on Virmire would be more likely to have people queston her objectivity
 

If I were Shepard, I'd be writing out my will because there is no way that I can ever prove my innocence because all I have is my word. The Council and the Alliance no longer trusts me, Ashley has sold me down the river, all the evidence from Cerberus is tainted because of the source and that's providing that I can even get my hands on any of it in the first place, there are a number of potential witnesses to my act of terror who escaped from the Arrival base and who are indoctrinated, but are nevertheless Alliance deep cover operatives whose word will trump mine, and I am running around on a Cerberus copy of the Normandy SR1 in a Cerberus uniform with a Cerberus crew in a galaxy that has been heavily tainted by TIM's rumors. Good times. My only hope is that the Reapers invade Earth thereby saving my hind end from being barbequed in molasses by the Alliance. But what are the odds of that?

 
Ash is not likely to be the star witness of the defense of prosecution. How the trial goes is going to depend on a great many things. Including Ashley
 

 
First, I never said that Williams was necessary to prove all of the charges. They are listed to illustrate the severity of trouble that Shepard finds himself in. That is, he really needs his friends while the undertaker takes his measurements.
 
Secondly, Williams testimony will prove that Shepard is a traitor to the Alliance tribunal. Perry Mason couldn't get Shepard off from that treason charge.
 
Third, LI or not, Ashley's testimony (or Alenko's if you prefer) is going to nail Shepard to the cross on the treason charge. This is because of their service history, actions in defense of the Citadel, and Spectre status. Neither saw Shepard get killed and Joker only saw him get spaced. Nobody has any direct knowledge of Shepard's death. Further, nobody who has died biologically has EVER been brought back to life. Shepard says that he was clinically dead, he wasn't. He was biologically dead. Clinical death can be reversed in the first few minutes after the event, biological death cannot. That is why Shepard's resurrection is essentially miraculous and why nobody will believe him despite his cybernetics, medical records, etc. Not to mention, who would spend 4 billion credits to do so? In today's world, 1 million is considered catastrophic medical. Shepard's treatment is 4,000 times that. Who's going to buy that?
 
Further anything that has a "made by Cerberus" stamp will be automatically highly suspect. This is why everybody has been defending Williams to the nines. "It's Cerberus! Ahhhhhh!" will likely be the reaction that the Alliance judges, prosecutor, and everybody else will go through. If Williams was "justified" for writing off Shepard for that on Horizon, then why wouldn't the Alliance tribunal be OK to do it? It's perfectly understandable isn't it? He really WAS a traitor!! Why would anyone even bother to question that?
 
I am not saying that of you, iacus, you and many other of the posters on this thread have proven themselves perfectly reasonable and thoughtful people. But I have seen that reaction both on this thread and on others. The Alliance will prove little different given that they a. believe that Shepard is a traitor already, b. know that he was directly responsible for the deaths of over 304,000 sentients, and c. believe the Reapers to be nothing more than Shepard's fantasy. Add in the salting of the ground by Cerberus and you get a complete picture of a hostile tribunal from the get go. Mix in Williams/Alenko for a little spice and extra betrayal and we reprise General Williams' experience plus, the benefit of a losing trial. By the way, I believe that it would be wonderful storytelling if this was brought to Williams' attention in some fashion. I do so love bitter irony.
 
Lastly, who says that the Council requires perfect unity? You say that Anderson would object, while I believe that he would, the other Councilors don't have to go along with him and can strip Shepard of his Spectre status in a heartbeat. Anderson only got his way because the political ramifications of pushing the issue were too much to deal with. This would not be so in light of the 304,000 dead batarians, a destroyed mass effect relay, and a fuming Batarian Hegemony. Anderson would be overruled and Shepard would be deep sixed. That's probably why Anderson is an Admiral on Earth for Shepard's hearing when the Reapers show up. He likely resigned in protest.
 
Finally, I would like to thank you for your posts. They help to keep me thinking!

[knightnblu]

ubermensch007 - Wow, I never thought of that. Shepard you are one bad, bad, little monkey. I don't usually play renegade, but that would be definitely worth it! No joy for the paragon though, but...damn!

whywhywhywhy - Thanks for the kind words and for your support! They are much appreciated, as always!

To all of my detractors, thank you for your thoughtful counterarguments as well. They help to keep me honest!

[paul165]

Ah well if you're paragon you use data from the Shadowbroker instead:D

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
First, I never said that Williams was necessary to prove all of the charges. They are listed to illustrate the severity of trouble that Shepard finds himself in. That is, he really needs his friends while the undertaker takes his measurements.

No doubt Shepard's in trouble.  But I think Ash coud still potentially be one of the friends.  She could as easily testify that Shepard doesn't take orders from Cerberus and saved the colony as that he appeared on a Cerberus vessel on a colony being abducted.
 

Secondly, Williams testimony will prove that Shepard is a traitor to the Alliance tribunal. Perry Mason couldn't get Shepard off from that treason charge.

I say that's still in doubt. Ash could only really testify that Shepard was not, in fact, dead.  Not that he faked his death, or arranged the destruction of the Normandy, or even that he was a member of Cerberus.
 

Third, LI or not, Ashley's testimony (or Alenko's if you prefer) is going to nail Shepard to the cross on the treason charge. This is because of their service history, actions in defense of the Citadel, and Spectre status. Neither saw Shepard get killed and Joker only saw him get spaced. Nobody has any direct knowledge of Shepard's death. Further, nobody who has died biologically has EVER been brought back to life. Shepard says that he was clinically dead, he wasn't. He was biologically dead. Clinical death can be reversed in the first few minutes after the event, biological death cannot. That is why Shepard's resurrection is essentially miraculous and why nobody will believe him despite his cybernetics, medical records, etc. Not to mention, who would spend 4 billion credits to do so? In today's world, 1 million is considered catastrophic medical. Shepard's treatment is 4,000 times that. Who's going to buy that?

I'm having flashbacks to the 30page-plus debate I had a while back on how ridiculous the Lazarus Project plotline was (I was debating on the side of "it was stupid") 

I'm imagining Shepard's cybernetics being scanned, and scientists marvelling, saying "no human could survive this degree of replacement!  He should have died on the table!"

I'm also imagining documents left behind by Miranda, by Mordin, or Chakwas about Shepard's medical history post-Lazarus Project.  Shadow Broker files, maybe even a cooperative EDI.  

Of course, none of this has anything to do with Ash's potential testimony.  What she could testify to would be Shepard's character and how likely or not it would be for him to work with Cerberus.  One who attacked several Cerberus bases, killed a bunch of their operatives, refused to sell their data to the Shadwo Broker, and maybe was one of their victims years ago suddenly deciding to betray the Alliance, destroying the Normandy, and jumping off to work for them?  The Lazarus Project may be scarecly less believable.
 

Further anything that has a "made by Cerberus" stamp will be automatically highly suspect. This is why everybody has been defending Williams to the nines. "It's Cerberus! Ahhhhhh!" will likely be the reaction that the Alliance judges, prosecutor, and everybody else will go through. If Williams was "justified" for writing off Shepard for that on Horizon, then why wouldn't the Alliance tribunal be OK to do it? It's perfectly understandable isn't it? He really WAS a traitor!! Why would anyone even bother to question that?

Ironically, at the same time I'm debating this, I'm also debating on another thread that Ash overreacted to Shepard on Horizon 

 

I am not saying that of you, iacus, you and many other of the posters on this thread have proven themselves perfectly reasonable and thoughtful people. But I have seen that reaction both on this thread and on others. The Alliance will prove little different given that they a. believe that Shepard is a traitor already, b. know that he was directly responsible for the deaths of over 304,000 sentients, and c. believe the Reapers to be nothing more than Shepard's fantasy. Add in the salting of the ground by Cerberus and you get a complete picture of a hostile tribunal from the get go. Mix in Williams/Alenko for a little spice and extra betrayal and we reprise General Williams' experience plus, the benefit of a losing trial. By the way, I believe that it would be wonderful storytelling if this was brought to Williams' attention in some fashion. I do so love bitter irony.

The Alliance may well be willing to convict based on "guilt by association" or as a political move  But I do not believe Ash would be party to it.  First off, she knows the Reapers are real.  I'd like to think that, initial reaction aside, she has since come to her sense (or at least, the writers have) Betrayal is not part of her, or Kaidan for that matter.  She hates politics, look at her reaction to Udina screwing them over in ME1, or her grandfather.  Heck she goes off on the smuggler on Eden Prime for skimming equipment from the supplies!
 

Lastly, who says that the Council requires perfect unity? You say that Anderson would object, while I believe that he would, the other Councilors don't have to go along with him and can strip Shepard of his Spectre status in a heartbeat. Anderson only got his way because the political ramifications of pushing the issue were too much to deal with. This would not be so in light of the 304,000 dead batarians, a destroyed mass effect relay, and a fuming Batarian Hegemony. Anderson would be overruled and Shepard would be deep sixed. That's probably why Anderson is an Admiral on Earth for Shepard's hearing when the Reapers show up. He likely resigned in protest.
 

In public, the Council always acts in concert.  Debates may occur behind closed doors, but notice once they take the stage, they always speak as one and provide a front of unity.  If they overruled Anderson, you can bet he'd make a lot of noise about it, breaking that unity. barring serious negative repercussions for humanity.  And if Ash is now Anderson's new protege...

Finally, I would like to thank you for your posts. They help to keep me thinking!

Nothing wrong with a little honest debate.

[knightnblu]

iacus - If you consider the political atmosphere then it becomes highly unlikely that Shepard will be found innocent. The Bararian's are furious and looking for blood, the Council and Alliance are embarrassed by Shepard, the Alliance is looking to avoid a war that is likely to result in millions of deaths, and Shepard is believed to be a traitor by both the Council and the Alliance due to TIM's machinations while he was in a coma on a surgical table. In truth, I am half expecting a Star Wars title crawl at the beginning of ME3 to explain just how dire the situation is that Shepard finds himself in.
 
Will Ashley be a help or a hindrance? Unless she is willing to lie on the stand, I believe that she is going to be a hindrance. We had a preview of her testimony on Horizon when she branded Shepard a traitor. In order for her to relent, she will have to change her mind and I don't see how that is possible since they have had no communication between them except for the tepid email apology she tendered days later. Her feelings for Shepard are irrelevant because the damage has already been done. Now she just has to live with it.
 
I knew when I pressed the button on the Project that there would be hell to pay. I knew that Ashley had abandoned me, I knew that neither the Alliance nor the Council trusted me, and I knew that they would crucify me for doing it. I also knew that the Alliance would have to sacrifice me in order to placate the Batarians. While the game forced me into that position, I would have done it anyway because it had to be done. The Reapers are the blade pressed up against the galaxy's throat and I will do whatever it takes to stop them. I only wish that Williams had stood by me.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

iacus - If you consider the political atmosphere then it becomes highly unlikely that Shepard will be found innocent. The Bararian's are furious and looking for blood, the Council and Alliance are embarrassed by Shepard, the Alliance is looking to avoid a war that is likely to result in millions of deaths, and Shepard is believed to be a traitor by both the Council and the Alliance due to TIM's machinations while he was in a coma on a surgical table. In truth, I am half expecting a Star Wars title crawl at the beginning of ME3 to explain just how dire the situation is that Shepard finds himself in.
 
Will Ashley be a help or a hindrance? Unless she is willing to lie on the stand, I believe that she is going to be a hindrance. We had a preview of her testimony on Horizon when she branded Shepard a traitor. In order for her to relent, she will have to change her mind and I don't see how that is possible since they have had no communication between them except for the tepid email apology she tendered days later. Her feelings for Shepard are irrelevant because the damage has already been done. Now she just has to live with it.
 
I knew when I pressed the button on the Project that there would be hell to pay. I knew that Ashley had abandoned me, I knew that neither the Alliance nor the Council trusted me, and I knew that they would crucify me for doing it. I also knew that the Alliance would have to sacrifice me in order to placate the Batarians. While the game forced me into that position, I would have done it anyway because it had to be done. The Reapers are the blade pressed up against the galaxy's throat and I will do whatever it takes to stop them. I only wish that Williams had stood by me.

Shepard's fate at the trial is very much in doubt, for Arrival if nothing elkse.   But in the end, it'll be moot, cause of the Reapers.  But I honestly think Ash may be one of teh allies.  I mean, she changed her mind once about SHepard, she could again, right?  Maybe Anderson will stop stonewalling her.  Maybe she'll hear that my Shep sent encrypted Cerberus files to the Alliance.  Maybe she'll come to understand Shepard did die.  Maybe she'll come to se that Shepard in fact saved Horizon.  Maybe she'll recall all those Cerberus bases Shepard personally led in the destructon of.   Maybr she'll learn of teh politician who's life I saved on the Citadel.  Or the geth incurson on teh Migrant Fleet.  Maybe she'll see the Reaper data gained from the base (she's one of the few who believes in them after all)

And maybe the horse will sing 

[ubermensch007]

I don't want anyone to miss-out on this FANTASTIC -- OUTSTANDING  Fanfic of a hypothectical meeting of Operations Chief Ashley Williams and Admiral/Councillor David Anderson: Post-Horizon Report -- Especially if you share the sentiments of knightnblu's siggy: GTFOMS - A Solution for the post Horizon VS Blues

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?

VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?

VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?

VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?

VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?

VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.

Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...

Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.

Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and
saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?

VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.

Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?

VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS:*salutes*

Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*

Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Modifié par ubermensch007, 05 août 2011 - 05:33 .

[knightnblu]

ubermensch007 wrote...

I don't want anyone to miss-out on this FANTASTIC -- OUTSTANDING  Fanfic of a hypothectical meeting of Operations Chief Ashley Williams and Admiral/Councillor David Anderson: Post-Horizon Report -- Especially if you share the sentiments of knightnblu's siggy: GTFOMS - A Solution for the post Horizon VS Blues

JKoopman wrote...

VS: Mission accomplished, sir! Reporting for debriefing.
Anderson: Ah, excellent! What did you uncover about Shepard and the missing colonies?

VS: Well, sir, I can confirm that Shepard is alive.
Anderson: Okay, well, I already knew that because Shepard came to visit me here on the Citadel at my own invitation. Didn't you get my email?
VS: Oh, well... I can confirm that Shepard is working with Cerberus at least!
Anderson: Uh... again, I already knew that. Shepard told me as much himself, and he explained that his alliance with Cerberus was only out of necessity. Did you uncover evidence to the contrary?
VS: Well... no. I mean, Shepard told me that he was only using them to investigate the colony attacks but...
Anderson: So then you uncovered evidence that Cerberus is controlling him somehow?

VS: Err, well... no. I mean, I kinda flipped out and stormed off as soon as he name-dropped Cerberus and didn't really give him a chance to explain...
Anderson: So Shepard freely admitted to working with Cerberus?

VS: Err, yes. In retrospect, sir, he actually seemed quite up-front about it. Garrus even...
Anderson: Wait, Garrus was there too?

VS: Yes, sir. He seemed to be quite convinced that Cerberus wasn't the enemy.
Anderson: *sigh* Well, did you at least find out anything about the missing colonies?

VS: I did, sir. Shepard seemed to think the Collectors are responsible for the colony attacks and that they're working for the Reapers...
Anderson: .....Again, already knew that, but proceed.
VS: ...um, but I think Cerberus might actually be behind them, sir.

Anderson: Interesting. I assume you have evidence to support this?
VS: Well... no. It's just my suspicion, sir. After the aliens attacked Horizon, I...

Anderson: Wait. They actually attacked Horizon? Well, you must have seen them then!
VS: Err, well... no, actually. I got stung by some sort of alien insect and spent the entire attack frozen in stasis behind some crates. All I saw was their ship flying away after Shepard fought them off.
Anderson: Shepard actually engaged them?
VS: Yes, sir. He saved half the colony from being abducted, myself included.

Anderson: *facepalm* So Shepard is working with Cerberus, Shepard fought off the Collectors and
saved the colony... and you think that Cerberus are secretly working with the Collectors? So you think that Cerberus is using Shepard to fight themselves?

VS: Err... it seemed to make sense at the time, sir.
Anderson: Well, did you at least acquire any data from Shepard? Collector scans? Weapon specs? He must have all sorts of intel regarding the Collectors if he successfully engaged them. Perhaps even some countermeasures we could use to protect ourselves.
VS: Um... no. Nothing.
Anderson: Wasn't he willing to cooperate?
VS: Actually, he wanted to take me back to his ship.

Anderson: .....So then, what was the problem?
VS: Umm......... I kinda called him a traitor and stormed off.
Anderson: *facepalm* So let me get this straight. Shepard fought off the Collectors, saved the colony, rescued your own dumb ass and then offered to let you inspect a classified Cerberus warship and share valuable data about advanced alien technology... and your response was to call him a traitor and walk away without so much as a "thank you"?
VS: ..........
Anderson: So... you basically came back empty-handed. Am I correct?

VS: ....................
Anderson: Useless. Just... leave. That'll be all.
VS:*salutes*

Anderson: If I were you, I'd be thinking of some way to make this up to Shepard. You owe him that much for saving your ass.
VS: Yes, sir! *turns to leave*

Anderson: *shouts* And it better not be some half-assed email apology!

Brilliant! Just...brilliant!


If that doesn't illustrate our arguments well, then I don't know what does. I especially liked that last about the email apology! Little Miss Williams definitely has some explaining to do in ME3 and I really don't think that BioWare can afford to ignore it. The way I see it, they have two options.
 
Option 1, explain Williams malfunction in a believable story in order to repair the damage done on Horizon. In this case the LI can be maintained and expanded.
 
or
 
Option 2, make Williams an enemy/rival of Shepard. LI is over, but there is an awful lot of juice that can be squeezed out of this option. This would not be out of line with her character because Williams is ambitious and driven and she could easily say that Shepard was just a crush that wouldn't have survived long term anyway because she would always have been trying to escape his shadow in order to gain her own success creating a source of constant friction.
 
Both options can give BioWare a great deal of latitude in the story writing and enable them to pull the emotional strings of the player like a musician. Regardless of which way that they choose to go, they definitely have to do something along these lines in order to maintain the integrity of the story.

[Made Nightwing]

ubermensch007 wrote...

I don't want anyone to miss-out on this FANTASTIC -- OUTSTANDING  Fanfic of a hypothectical meeting of Operations Chief Ashley Williams and Admiral/Councillor David Anderson: Post-Horizon Report -- Especially if you share the sentiments of knightnblu's siggy: GTFOMS - A Solution for the post Horizon VS Blues

JKoopman wrote...

snip

My response to this is exactly the same as it was on the other thread: Not funny and doesn't make sense. If Anderson knew all this, HE SHOULD HAVE ****ING SENT A MESSAGE TO THE VS EXPLAINING EVERYTHING.

So, with that in mind, here's my opinion of what the VS's response would have been

VS:Well sir, if you had definite confirmation that Shepard was alive, don't you think you should have sent it along to your top operative? You know? So they don't have to learn that their former commander was still alive and working with Cerberus in the same sentence?
Anderson: Well...
VS: For that matter, if Shepard told you that the Collectors were attacking human colonies, shouldn't you have told me that as well? Y'know? So I could get the garrison and the militia prepared for action? And maybe sent me some decent techs WHO COULD GET THE FREAKING GUNS TO WORK? Screw this, I'm going to send a message to Shepard, maybe he'll accept an apology. Or he might just read my message and then completely neglect to answer it...just like you.




Yes sir, what we have in Mass Effect 2 is a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing - I don't see your logic here. You assert that the quoted text does not make any sense. In what context? I believe that it does indeed make sense. Anderson sent Williams on a mission with specific objectives. She didn't achieve them. In the fanfic, Anderson calls her on that failure.
 
I personally found it to be humorous because it contrasts Ashley's strong emotions with her inability to do her duty because of them. She was most definitely able to render an emotional response to Shepard, but could not find it within herself to perform the job that she was sent to Horizon to do. This incongruity is what makes the fanfic funny.
 
Other than to climb Shepard's ass like a tree, what did she accomplish on Horizon? She didn't gain the colonists trust, she didn't get the targeting system to work, she couldn't mount any kind of defense for the colonists, she never found out anything about Cerberus, and she ended up captured herself. I would imagine that she was highly frustrated by these circumstances because they all spell massive failure for her mission.
 
Is this massive frustration why she blows her stack at Shepard for no apparent reason? I think that is a part of it, but it most certainly does not explain the totality of her actions on Horizon. I can imagine that there were many powerful emotions running through Williams when she saw Shepard: frustration, anger, disbelief, grief, and shock, but where was the joy at his return? The man that she claims to love returns from the grave in answer to her prayers and...nothing. There is something wrong with this picture.
 
In her email, she states that she can't afford to lose Shepard a second time, why? Because she is afraid that she won't get the chance to chew him out again? All she does is to moan about how badly she was torn up over his loss. If we are to believe that her soul was flayed by his loss and that she agonized over his death to the point of it becoming near pathological grief, where is the joy at his return and her deliverance from her private hell? Williams is great at expressing sarcasm, anger, frustration, but when it comes to tenderness, forget it. For that, she needs the words of Tennyson and Shakespeare because she cannot form them herself, that my friend is a load of hooey. While one could argue that she embraced Shepard and that is the signature of joy, I would remind you that she only did so after an awkward pause and hesitant embrace. That is clearly not the hallmark of joy. It felt more like an act of duty than of affection.
 
Therefore, I submit that what we have here is a failure to accept the facts. Facts that clearly point to something being very wrong with Williams. Ashley is a grown woman acting like a 13 year old girl. She needs to grow up and stop acting like a child. Mass Effect is an adult world with an adult story. I would very much appreciate it if BioWare made it's main characters act like adults rather than children with an attitude. If BioWare wants to break the romance between Williams and Shepard, then do it. Don't route step and foul it all up. That is all I am asking.

[V-rex]

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm in no mood for a debate. And Knightblue loves debates.

Damn it, this thread just makes me mad. It's hard to have a good mood about Ashley returning while being conciously aware that there is a huge vicious thread out there where people are playing 'devil's advocate' like no tomorrow.

But still, to reiterate the same point I've made a million times. Ashley is and always has been my favorite gal in the Mass Effect series and it's going to take more then just one crummy scene in Mass Effect 2 to detract from that. So yes, she is still totally my girl and the first chance I get on the Normandy I shall take her in a manly fashion.
'Cause she's pretty.

Modifié par V-rex, 05 août 2011 - 11:43 .

[simo2003]

For my original play through, yes, Ashley will be my Shepard's love interest in ME3. He accepts her criticism on Horizon - even he thinks working for Cerberus is a bad idea, but as other posters have explained, there isn't really a viable alternative. The Illusive Man has no doubt burned all Shepard's bridges at the start of ME2 anyway. My Shepard made the best decision he could, based on the information he had available at the time.

Despite the VS's assertion that they would 'never work for Cerberus', I would put money on Ashley and Kaidan both joining Cerberus were they in Shepard's position. So my Shepard will cut Ash a bit of slack on that count - she hasn't experienced what Shepard has. Ashley is impulsive, hardheaded and stubborn so I was not surprised by her reaction to seeing Shepard on Horizon (especially since it's fresh out of a high-stress combat situation with adrenaline running high). I can see other points of view, and I accept that the VS's reaction can be seen in different lights. But I would also suggest that this ambiguity is a strength of the story, especially since you as a player make the choices - you're free to put your own interpretation to it, rather than having a certain point of view shoved down your throat.

[DCYNIGR8]

simo2003 wrote...
But I would also suggest that this ambiguity is a strength of the story, especially since you as a player make the choices - you're free to put your own interpretation to it, rather than having a certain point of view shoved down your throat.

This.

Main reason I don't take what others say about the VS to heart, I have my own opinion and feelings on the matter and I am free to express them in the game as I see fit. I am very excited to see Ash back in ME3.

[simo2003]

knightnblu wrote...
Is this massive frustration why she blows her stack at Shepard for no apparent reason? I think that is a part of it, but it most certainly does not explain the totality of her actions on Horizon. I can imagine that there were many powerful emotions running through Williams when she saw Shepard: frustration, anger, disbelief, grief, and shock, but where was the joy at his return? The man that she claims to love returns from the grave in answer to her prayers and...nothing. There is something wrong with this picture.
 
In her email, she states that she can't afford to lose Shepard a second time, why? Because she is afraid that she won't get the chance to chew him out again? All she does is to moan about how badly she was torn up over his loss. If we are to believe that her soul was flayed by his loss and that she agonized over his death to the point of it becoming near pathological grief, where is the joy at his return and her deliverance from her private hell? Williams is great at expressing sarcasm, anger, frustration, but when it comes to tenderness, forget it.

Hmm.  I would say that seeing Shepard when she had already accepted his death would be enough to illicit 'frustration, anger, disbelief, grief and shock' and that this is a totally natural state of affairs.  If I 'died' and turned up after two years, I would be surprised if my wife was not these things when I turned up again.  I'd probably get a slap, or more likely, a punch in the face.  I would not call that childish behaviour.  In a highly charged, emotional state, human beings find it difficult to analyse facts carefully, or see the bigger picture, past their 'fight or flight' reaction.

Later, we get an e-mail from Ashley to apologise.  I didn't expect her to turn up for a personal apology for two reasons.  The in-game reason being Ashley has no way to predict where Shepard will be next as he's on a covert mission.  Secondly, Bioware simply didn't want Ashley to be one of your companions in ME2!

Modifié par simo2003, 05 août 2011 - 11:54 .

[knightnblu]

I think that we need to compare in order to understand where we are with Williams. If we compare and contrast, I think that some things will become obvious.
 
 
Length of time with Shepard
 
A. Williams                Miranda Lawson                                 Tali                 Liara
 
Lengthy                       Brief                                                    Lengthy           Lengthy
 
Personality
 
A. Williams                Miranda Lawson                                 Tali                 Liara
 
Closed/secretive         Closed/secretive/pragmatic               Open               Open
 
Relationship with Shepard
 
Ashley Williams - Meets Shepard on Eden Prime after the destruction of her unit. She is alone and under fire when Shepard appears with Alenko and saves her bacon. She is in awe of Shepard for his accomplishments and abilities. Uses Shepard as an example of what a marine officer should be and models her own actions on that template. Over ME1, she and Shepard get to know each other and fall in love culminating in intimacy just before they must risk their lives to stop Saren. One can assume that the relationship deepens over the next two months, until Shepard is spaced in the Collector attack removing him from Ashley on the ascent of their relationship. Therefore, Ashley suffers one of the hardest losses.
 
Miranda Lawson - Oversaw the rebuilding of Shepard over a two year period. She witnesses the transformation from meat to a living, breathing individual. Although it is likely that she saw Shepard more as a problem to be solved than as a fellow human. During the attack on the Lazerus station, Lawson wakes Shepard and gets him moving in order to complete her mission of resurrecting him. She takes Shepard to see the Illusive Man and becomes a subordinate of Shepard's.
 
Initially, Lawson is cold to Shepard and likely views him as a threat to her personal power. However, over her the length of time in service to Shepard she realizes that her initial assessment of Shepard was in error and she finds a respect and liking for the man. She and Shepard become intimate prior to accessing the Omega relay and fight to the end at the Collector base.
 
Lawson stands by Shepard when TIM orders her to stop Shepard from blowing the base. She refused the order and tendered her resignation knowing that Cerberus protection would be removed from both she and her sister exposing both to her estranged father.
 
Tali Zorah vas Neemah - Tali is saved by Shepard on Citadel station in ME1. She shows no inclination toward romance with Shepard during ME1, but forms a friendly bond with the Commander. In the intervening years, Tali thinks of Shepard often and wonders what might have been. When she sees Shepard on Freedom's Progress, she is stunned, but maintains control of her unit. Shepard asks her to join him in his mission, but Tali refuses because of a mission she is slated for in Geth space.
 
Shepard saves Tali again on Haestrom and Tali Joins Shepard's crew. After Shepard deals with her treason trial aboard the fleet, Tali inadvertently spills the beans that she has a romantic interest in Shepard. She says that she has a deep admiration of him and Shepard admits to feeling a romantic interest in her. They become intimate before passing through the Omega relay.
 
Liara T'Soni - Shepard rescues Liara from Saren's forces at a Prothean dig. Initially, she is interested in Shepard because of his connection to the Protheans, but over time she and Shepard bond and become intimate before prior to traveling to Ilos. We can assume that she and Shepard's bond grows stronger in the time between the Battle of the Citadel and when the Normandy SR1 is destroyed.
 
Liara is recruited by Cerberus to steal Shepard's body from the Shadow Broker and she manages to accomplish this task. She gives Shepard over to Cerberus, but she is troubled by doing so. However, she cannot let him go. This tortures her until she and Shepard are reunited on Illium. Shepard notices that Liara has grown cold, but she will not express why this is so because she fears Shepard's judgment of her.
 
Liara finally tells Shepard of her missing Drell partner and she explains how Cerberus obtained Shepard's body. Shepard forgives her and they both assault the Shadow Broker's base together and defeat him. Liara becomes the new Shadow Broker and she and Shepard reaffirm their relationship aboard the Normandy SR2.
 
Reaction to Shepard upon seeing him again
 
A. Williams                            Miranda Lawson                                 Tali                 Liara
 
Hugs him then blows              N/A                                                     Stunned           Chilly
her stack and calls him
a traitor to the Alliance,
Anderson, and her.
 
Of all the females in the ME world, the two that best knew Shepard were Williams and Liara. Of those two, Williams knew Shepard the best because she and Shepard were of the same species and had similar backgrounds. While Liara may have had strong feelings for Shepard, her lack of understanding would have to have been overcome in order to strengthen their relationship and Liara admits as much in ME1 when she is speaking to Shepard and tells him that she has very little experience with humans. Therefore, of all the potential LIs in Mass Effect, Williams should have known and understood Shepard better than anybody else. Yet, Horizon proves that this isn't true.
 
I have twenty years in emergency services and I have seen people in all manner of duress and stressful situations and I am here to say that Ashley's response to Shepard on Horizon was not something that made sense given the circumstances. Admittedly, Shepard's response was not typical either, but nowhere in his response to Williams do we see a trigger for Ashley's tirade.
 
Did she embrace him? Yes, but it was not the embrace of lovers. It was hesitant and awkward. She must have been furious because Shepard asks right after the embrace why she is angry. Additionally, Ashley's email apology was awkward. She had time to reflect and she had time to sort through her emotions, but she still sent a tepid apology. It is possible that love doesn't mean the same to other people like it does to me, but I would think that somewhere in love is the ability to forgive any transgressions of your loved one. That is unless there is a deal breaker in the mix such as adultery or treason. While both are betrayals, treason is far worse than adultery in my mind and Ashley does not hesitate to brand Shepard with that accusation.
 
Further, there is venom in Ashley's words. This can be seen in her facial expressions and in her vocal inflection. She doesn't say that she thinks Shepard might be on dangerous ground. No, she spits the word of traitor as if she is addressing somebody who is beneath contempt.
 
Perhaps Ashley runs hot and cold. Truth is, the only other time that I saw Williams go from 0 to b!tch in .001 seconds was with Charles Serocino on the Citadel. I understood that, but I don't understand that behavior toward the man that saved her life 3 times so far with save number 3 occurring literally seconds before she shreds the man that she claims to love.
 
Nor do I understand how she could treat Shepard exactly the same as her grandfather was treated. Of all people, she should have known that snap judgments often make you look like an idiot. Apparently, her feelings of sympathy for the victims of snap judgments only apply to her family. Everybody else can catch as catch can.
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Ashley. Up until Horizon, she was my favorite character in the ME universe. I felt for her history and I sympathized with her angst over the stain on her family's honor. I just never thought that she would do to me what the Alliance did to dear old granddad. A lot of folks have said that it was bad writing that made Ashley out to be a nut job on Horizon. Me? I just go with the flow. If they don't want me to boot her off of my ship in ME3, then they had better come up with a damned good reason for her malfunction on Horizon. Assuming of course, that they will even allow me to do so.
 
Lastly, Miranda had a great deal to lose and had been with Cerberus from the time when she was a teen. She lived in a sheltered environment all of her life with her perceptions being skewed by her associations. Yet she stood by Shepard at a critical moment knowing that all of her and her sister's protections would be removed. Ashley on the other hand, the woman who claimed to have loved Shepard, abandoned him. And why? Because of rumor and innuendo and apparently being embarrassed by her previous association with him. That speaks volumes about who she really is.

[knightnblu]

Gregolian wrote...

Sorta.... if she still acts like she has a stick up her backside in ME3 then no.

What if she has worked that stick out of her butt and is using it to beat guys to death with it?