1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
I have twenty years in emergency services and I have seen people in all manner of duress and stressful situations and I am here to say that Ashley's response to Shepard on Horizon was not something that made sense given the circumstances. Admittedly, Shepard's response was not typical either, but nowhere in his response to Williams do we see a trigger for Ashley's tirade.
 
Did she embrace him? Yes, but it was not the embrace of lovers. It was hesitant and awkward. She must have been furious because Shepard asks right after the embrace why she is angry. Additionally, Ashley's email apology was awkward. She had time to reflect and she had time to sort through her emotions, but she still sent a tepid apology. It is possible that love doesn't mean the same to other people like it does to me, but I would think that somewhere in love is the ability to forgive any transgressions of your loved one. That is unless there is a deal breaker in the mix such as adultery or treason. While both are betrayals, treason is far worse than adultery in my mind and Ashley does not hesitate to brand Shepard with that accusation.
 
Further, there is venom in Ashley's words. This can be seen in her facial expressions and in her vocal inflection. She doesn't say that she thinks Shepard might be on dangerous ground. No, she spits the word of traitor as if she is addressing somebody who is beneath contempt.
 
Perhaps Ashley runs hot and cold. Truth is, the only other time that I saw Williams go from 0 to b!tch in .001 seconds was with Charles Serocino on the Citadel. I understood that, but I don't understand that behavior toward the man that saved her life 3 times so far with save number 3 occurring literally seconds before she shreds the man that she claims to love.
 
Nor do I understand how she could treat Shepard exactly the same as her grandfather was treated. Of all people, she should have known that snap judgments often make you look like an idiot. Apparently, her feelings of sympathy for the victims of snap judgments only apply to her family. Everybody else can catch as catch can.
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Ashley. Up until Horizon, she was my favorite character in the ME universe. I felt for her history and I sympathized with her angst over the stain on her family's honor. I just never thought that she would do to me what the Alliance did to dear old granddad. A lot of folks have said that it was bad writing that made Ashley out to be a nut job on Horizon. Me? I just go with the flow. If they don't want me to boot her off of my ship in ME3, then they had better come up with a damned good reason for her malfunction on Horizon. Assuming of course, that they will even allow me to do so.
 
Lastly, Miranda had a great deal to lose and had been with Cerberus from the time when she was a teen. She lived in a sheltered environment all of her life with her perceptions being skewed by her associations. Yet she stood by Shepard at a critical moment knowing that all of her and her sister's protections would be removed. Ashley on the other hand, the woman who claimed to have loved Shepard, abandoned him. And why? Because of rumor and innuendo and apparently being embarrassed by her previous association with him. That speaks volumes about who she really is.

I find myself agreeing with just about everything here.

My occupation doesn't show me people under a lot of stress.  But even I could tell that the whole scene on Horizon was artificial and wrong.  This simply wasn't Ashley, this was the writers directing Ashley, regardless of the personality they gave her.  Same for Kaidan in her place.  Same with Shepard, even.

And this is why I'm staying with Ash in ME3, barring a really good reason to let go.  I can't abandon the character because she was misued in ME2.  It simply wasn't her.  Ash is stubborn.  She doesn't change her beliefs easily.  And Ash believed in Shepard.  

I don't know what excuse will be brought in ME3 to explain her behavior, but that's wasn't Ashley WIlliams acting of her own free will.  EIther something else is going on in the that the story neglected to tell us, or it was a hamfisted "Assuming direct control" to drive an artificial wedge between Shepard and Ash.  I don't do artificial.  I dig my heels in when I get threatened with the Plot Hammer.  

I won't abandon Ashley, even if Bioware does.

[knightnblu]

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
I have twenty years in emergency services and I have seen people in all manner of duress and stressful situations and I am here to say that Ashley's response to Shepard on Horizon was not something that made sense given the circumstances. Admittedly, Shepard's response was not typical either, but nowhere in his response to Williams do we see a trigger for Ashley's tirade.
 
Did she embrace him? Yes, but it was not the embrace of lovers. It was hesitant and awkward. She must have been furious because Shepard asks right after the embrace why she is angry. Additionally, Ashley's email apology was awkward. She had time to reflect and she had time to sort through her emotions, but she still sent a tepid apology. It is possible that love doesn't mean the same to other people like it does to me, but I would think that somewhere in love is the ability to forgive any transgressions of your loved one. That is unless there is a deal breaker in the mix such as adultery or treason. While both are betrayals, treason is far worse than adultery in my mind and Ashley does not hesitate to brand Shepard with that accusation.
 
Further, there is venom in Ashley's words. This can be seen in her facial expressions and in her vocal inflection. She doesn't say that she thinks Shepard might be on dangerous ground. No, she spits the word of traitor as if she is addressing somebody who is beneath contempt.
 
Perhaps Ashley runs hot and cold. Truth is, the only other time that I saw Williams go from 0 to b!tch in .001 seconds was with Charles Serocino on the Citadel. I understood that, but I don't understand that behavior toward the man that saved her life 3 times so far with save number 3 occurring literally seconds before she shreds the man that she claims to love.
 
Nor do I understand how she could treat Shepard exactly the same as her grandfather was treated. Of all people, she should have known that snap judgments often make you look like an idiot. Apparently, her feelings of sympathy for the victims of snap judgments only apply to her family. Everybody else can catch as catch can.
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Ashley. Up until Horizon, she was my favorite character in the ME universe. I felt for her history and I sympathized with her angst over the stain on her family's honor. I just never thought that she would do to me what the Alliance did to dear old granddad. A lot of folks have said that it was bad writing that made Ashley out to be a nut job on Horizon. Me? I just go with the flow. If they don't want me to boot her off of my ship in ME3, then they had better come up with a damned good reason for her malfunction on Horizon. Assuming of course, that they will even allow me to do so.
 
Lastly, Miranda had a great deal to lose and had been with Cerberus from the time when she was a teen. She lived in a sheltered environment all of her life with her perceptions being skewed by her associations. Yet she stood by Shepard at a critical moment knowing that all of her and her sister's protections would be removed. Ashley on the other hand, the woman who claimed to have loved Shepard, abandoned him. And why? Because of rumor and innuendo and apparently being embarrassed by her previous association with him. That speaks volumes about who she really is.

I find myself agreeing with just about everything here.

My occupation doesn't show me people under a lot of stress.  But even I could tell that the whole scene on Horizon was artificial and wrong.  This simply wasn't Ashley, this was the writers directing Ashley, regardless of the personality they gave her.  Same for Kaidan in her place.  Same with Shepard, even.

And this is why I'm staying with Ash in ME3, barring a really good reason to let go.  I can't abandon the character because she was misued in ME2.  It simply wasn't her.  Ash is stubborn.  She doesn't change her beliefs easily.  And Ash believed in Shepard.  

I don't know what excuse will be brought in ME3 to explain her behavior, but that's wasn't Ashley WIlliams acting of her own free will.  EIther something else is going on in the that the story neglected to tell us, or it was a hamfisted "Assuming direct control" to drive an artificial wedge between Shepard and Ash.  I don't do artificial.  I dig my heels in when I get threatened with the Plot Hammer.  

I won't abandon Ashley, even if Bioware does.

And it is there that the heart of the matter resides. BioWare wasn't true to the character's ethos and we got...whatever that was on Horizon. Like you, I wholeheartedly agree that the object was to drive a wedge between Ashley and Shepard, but they ended up with a chasm. I don't blame you for taking a wait and see approach, but as for myself, I want a reasonable explanation for fouling up my LI from the writers.
 
If I am not very mistaken, I think a lot of people feel the same way.

[Made Nightwing]

@knightblu

One of the first things we were subjected to at Cadet NCO school was high amounts of stress. Written exams were presented almost immediately, with anyone getting below fifty percent being washed out and sent home. Combined low amounts of sleep, demanding practical and theoretical exercises, plus daily PT, and by the end of Day Five, most of us were getting snappy and skittish. My best friend nearly tore my head off for forgetting to close and lock the cupboard door before we left the barracks.

Now, if we were like that after just a little lack of sleep and some moderately stressful circumstances, how would you expect a person like Ash to react? She is a very passionate person, her emotions are wild and deep. She doesn't know what's going on and she flys off the handle.

Liara and Tali are completely different from Ashley. It doesn't matter how well they knew Shepard, it comes down to their personalities as well. Tali is bright and optimistic, Liara is almost identical, but she's feeling the weight of her two year hunt. Ashley is a hard and cynical soldier, made even more so by her presumed emotional distress after Shepard's death.

Going back to my last post, I say Anderson was at fault, because he knew Shepard was alive, working with Cerberus, and out to stop the Collectors. He should have immediately:

1. Provided Ashley with this up to date intelligence. Covert military actions demand huge amounts of situational awareness and knowing what the enemy is up to before he does. If he had sent Ash a note that Shepard was back and the Collectors were the ones gunning for the colonies, that could have given her time to prepare for both encounters.

2. Anderson should have provided Ashley with equipment that worked. Signal amplifiers to get past comms blackouts. And some techs who knew how to calibrate the guns. An assault trooper and some colonist techs shouldn't be responsible for assembling a complex hardware and software grid.

3. Backup. When Anderson got visited by Shepard, he should have sent several platoons of heavy infantry, and at least a small battle group to Horizon, just in case. This is a scenario that he should have predicted, from his lengthy military experience he should realise just how necessary it is to cover his bases. Maybe spending two years out of the front line has made him forget just how necessary these things are to prevent a mission becoming FUBAR.

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing wrote...
 
@knightblu
 
One of the first things we were subjected to at Cadet NCO school was high amounts of stress. Written exams were presented almost immediately, with anyone getting below fifty percent being washed out and sent home. Combined low amounts of sleep, demanding practical and theoretical exercises, plus daily PT, and by the end of Day Five, most of us were getting snappy and skittish. My best friend nearly tore my head off for forgetting to close and lock the cupboard door before we left the barracks.
 
Now, if we were like that after just a little lack of sleep and some moderately stressful circumstances, how would you expect a person like Ash to react? She is a very passionate person, her emotions are wild and deep. She doesn't know what's going on and she flys off the handle.
 
Liara and Tali are completely different from Ashley. It doesn't matter how well they knew Shepard, it comes down to their personalities as well. Tali is bright and optimistic, Liara is almost identical, but she's feeling the weight of her two year hunt. Ashley is a hard and cynical soldier, made even more so by her presumed emotional distress after Shepard's death.
 
Going back to my last post, I say Anderson was at fault, because he knew Shepard was alive, working with Cerberus, and out to stop the Collectors. He should have immediately:
 
1. Provided Ashley with this up to date intelligence. Covert military actions demand huge amounts of situational awareness and knowing what the enemy is up to before he does. If he had sent Ash a note that Shepard was back and the Collectors were the ones gunning for the colonies, that could have given her time to prepare for both encounters.
 
2. Anderson should have provided Ashley with equipment that worked. Signal amplifiers to get past comms blackouts. And some techs who knew how to calibrate the guns. An assault trooper and some colonist techs shouldn't be responsible for assembling a complex hardware and software grid.
 
3. Backup. When Anderson got visited by Shepard, he should have sent several platoons of heavy infantry, and at least a small battle group to Horizon, just in case. This is a scenario that he should have predicted, from his lengthy military experience he should realise just how necessary it is to cover his bases. Maybe spending two years out of the front line has made him forget just how necessary these things are to prevent a mission becoming FUBAR.

 
Regarding your points, I have these observations:
 
Point 1 - It is evident that Williams was indeed briefed. She refers to Alliance intel that indicated that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus. Since we are not aware of the time frame between Shepard's visit and his assault on Horizon, we cannot know if Anderson would have had the time to send any updated information to Williams or if such information would be relevant to her mission on Horizon. An encrypted burst transmission may have blown her cover as an Alliance liaison and sending a courier would have taken the time it took to travel from Citadel station to Horizon.
 
Point 2 - All battlefield commanders would love the equipment you describe because it would effectively reduce the fog of war from combat. First, I have already described in great detail why the targeting system failed and shall not do so again. Secondly, the Collectors possess advanced technology that would be difficult in the best of circumstances to overcome. Also, we do not know the state of equipment on Horizon. As far as we know, Comms blackouts may have been commonplace rather than a pre-attack indicator. This is because funding colonies is expensive and equipment would be one of the things where corners could be cut. Horizon is a civilian installation, not a military one. Third, I got the impression that the defense systems had already been installed, checked out, and passed inspection by the techs before they departed. This means that the guns were sabotaged after the final checkout of the weapons system. As EDI remarked, there were subtle errors in the targeting software that prevented the guns from acquiring targets. This indicates that the guns were sabotaged post inspection.
 
Point 3 - Backup is nice if you can get it, but without specific intel where do you send it? The Alliance Outreach program was a shotgun approach to deal with the colony raids. Are you saying that all of the colonies should have been sent these resources or just Horizon? If just Horizon then what intel leads you to believe that it is indexed for an attack? I have it on good authority that lengthy military service does not make one precognizant or omniscient and this is true even of the great captains. Where were the pre-attack indicators that signaled that Horizon was the next colony to be hit?
 
TIM pressed the right buttons to maneuver Williams into place on Horizon, but he would have insured that she would have been sent there with minimal resources. If he hadn't, he would have risked his set up to failure. Imagine if the Collectors had arrived in system with an Alliance battle group in orbit and a battalion of heavy infantry on the ground supported by planetary defenses. Do you really think that they would have attacked or would they have found easier prey? Up until Horizon, the Collectors preferred stealth to open conflict. After Horizon, it really didn't make any difference because the cat was out of the bag thanks to Shepard.
 
Further, how could Anderson have known that Shepard's arrival at the Citadel, at his request by the way, would result in Horizon being attacked? How do we know that Williams wasn't on a circuit of colonies inspecting recent installations of defense systems and Horizon was her latest stop? The only thing that we know for sure is that TIM was trunked deep into Alliance command and intelligence and it was those compromises that allowed TIM to set up Horizon for the Collector Assault.
 
As usual, you give thoughtful and intelligent counterarguments, but here I believe you to be incorrect in blaming Anderson.

[Iakus]

I just want to point out also:

1) The colony's comm systems were out. We don't know how long that's been a problem, exactly, but long enough that it's taking resources away from getting the gun working. It's entirely possible that Anderson did try to send a message to Ash, and she never got it. Particularly if it included the Collectors sabotaging the comm buoys at the relay.to prevent distress signals from getting out.

3) Plus, the Alliance has no authority in the Terminus. Ash's cover there was essentially a PR rep gifting some "anti-pirate defenses" on a goodwill tour. A bunch of front line marines or a task group would look really really suspicious.

[ubermensch007]

To piggy back on the sentiments of that fanfic by JKoopman -- I just wanted to say a few things about How Ashley could be viewed in a comedic light at times.We all know she's beautiful.We all know that she's strong and that she has a damn good sense of humor But consider what we have seen.

In Mass Effect 1.When we first see Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams.She comes across as being totally Bad-Ass.She's defending the colony, protecting a war photographer and journalist.She tells him to "Get down!" And she starts firing her assault rifle at the bad-guys...

The stand-up comedian and political commentator Bill Maher once said, "A hero is someone who goes in the direction that others flee from."

When we next see her... After Shepard and Alenko are on the ground.She is Running away -- from what they are trying to find.She's traveling in the Exact Opposite direction that they are.

And then on Horizon.After all the fighting is over.She just happens to stroll out, all - nonchalantly.And as casually as all-get-out! Like nothing just happened.   If you think about it... It's kind of HILLARIOUS...

It's like -- Who the hell is this character. I'm I suppose to take them seriously? BioWare.Or are they comedic relief?!

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[Gregolian]

ubermensch007 wrote...

To piggy back on the sentiments of that fanfic by JKoopman -- I just wanted to say a few things about How Ashley could be viewed in a comedic light at times.We all know she's beautiful.We all know that she's strong and that she has a damn good sense of humor But consider what we have seen.

In Mass Effect 1.When we first see Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams.She comes across as being totally Bad-Ass.She's defending the colony, protecting a war photographer and journalist.She tells him to "Get down!" And she starts firing her assault rifle at the bad-guys...

The stand-up comedian and political commentator Bill Maher once said, "A hero is someone who goes in the direction that others flee from."

When we next see her... After Shepard and Alenko are on the ground.She is Running away -- from what they are trying to find.She's traveling in the Exact Opposite direction that they are.

And then on Horizon.After all the fighting is over.She just happens to stroll out, all - nonchalantly.And as casually as all-get-out! Like nothing just happened.   If you think about it... It's kind of HILLARIOUS...

It's like -- Who the hell is this character. I'm I suppose to take them seriously? BioWare.Or are they comedic relief?!

I didn't find any of that funny...  at all.

[Iakus]

ubermensch007 wrote...

To piggy back on the sentiments of that fanfic by JKoopman -- I just wanted to say a few things about How Ashley could be viewed in a comedic light at times.We all know she's beautiful.We all know that she's strong and that she has a damn good sense of humor But consider what we have seen.

In Mass Effect 1.When we first see Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams.She comes across as being totally Bad-Ass.She's defending the colony, protecting a war photographer and journalist.She tells him to "Get down!" And she starts firing her assault rifle at the bad-guys...

The stand-up comedian and political commentator Bill Maher once said, "A hero is someone who goes in the direction that others flee from."

When we next see her... After Shepard and Alenko are on the ground.She is Running away -- from what they are trying to find.She's traveling in the Exact Opposite direction that they are.

And then on Horizon.After all the fighting is over.She just happens to stroll out, all - nonchalantly.And as casually as all-get-out! Like nothing just happened.   If you think about it... It's kind of HILLARIOUS...

It's like -- Who the hell is this character. I'm I suppose to take them seriously? BioWare.Or are they comedic relief?!

Well, point of order...

When you meet her on Eden Prime when she's running, she does go into a diving roll, draws a pistol, and blows apart two geth before taking cover behind some rocks.  So it's not like she's pulling a Sir Robin there...

Horizon, Horizon's just a mess.  No question.

[rapscallioness]

The whole thing does stink to high heaven as far as it seems like someone, somewhere actually wanted the Collectors to succeed. Or at least land and take some colonists. Maybe even TIM thought that if Ash/Kaidan got snatched, it would give Shepard an even greater motivation to get to that Collector base.

Anderson didn't really seem to know that darn much. He knew Shepard was alive, but could he actually send a comm. to Horizon? When he was stonewalling the VS, Shepard was still just a rumor. A rumor that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus, but that wasn't confirmed until their mtg. So, was the VS already out at Horizon?

Beyond that all he knew was that Shepard was working for Cerberus and he didn't trust Cerberus. He even came up with the same line as the VS about maybe Cerberus was just manipulating them with the threat of the Reapers to get Shepard to do their bidding.

When the VS stated that they would report back to the Citadel and see if they believed Shepard's story, what part did they mean? The part about dying and coming back (and yeah, Shep. does seem to be in denial abt. how dead she really was--not clinically; not coma...dead)? The part about not really working for Cerberus? We know the VS saw the Collector's, but do they believe the Reapers are really behind the Collector's. Like how nobody believes the Reapers were behind the Geth. Because as soon as Shep mentions that the Collector's were working with the Reapers, the VS goes into the maybe Cerberus is manipulating Shepard with the threat of Reapers.

I'm curious as to how much the VS believes the Reapers are Still a threat? They don't even mention Reapers in the email. Anderson still believes the Reapers are a threat, but he's not sure that's what TIM is really after. And of course, the whole Arrival thing kinda falls into that appearance of Shepard being tricked into killing a bunch of Batarians out of fear of the Reapers.

I mean, we know it was true, but how does it look? Unless they still have that slight comm. from Kenson about the artifact and Hackett. But I could see that being easily twisted around and made to appear that maybe Cerberus sent a false comm...and even tricked Hackett into divulging the exact location of Kenson..and the artifact/Reaper tech. Hmmm...idk abt. that one. lol

As far as the trial and the VS, what could the VS really say? The main things being:

1) They never saw Shepard actually get killed
2) They did see Shepard on Horizon working with Cerberus
3) Shepard saved at least half the colony from the Collectors (and remember even tho the VS sees the Collectors abducting colonists, they still think Cerberus could be working with the Collectors. I don't understand that..Shepard's working w/ Cerb. and Collectors wking w/ Cerb...fighting each other)

Beyond that...I don't see anything else, good or bad, that would be relevant to trial of Shepard. Shep and Cerb is not a secret. Now the whole trial could come down to whether, or not the Reapers are real and thus Shep had a legit reason do do what she did. The VS did see Sovereign on Virmire..mine did, but Idk if that's gonna play because some had Ash off w/ Kirrahe...so.

But even if it did, then come the whole, "Did you see this Reaper b4 or after you took your Commanding Officer 'in a manly fashion' (lol @V-Rex..love it).. "Next!"

I just don't see how the VS testimony could really help, or hinder. What do they really know that they can testify to that isn't already known? Mind you, who knows what they were tarcking while Shep was off kicking Collector booty. The galactic news thing paints Shep pretty bad. Saying Shep is surrounding herself w/ killers, criminals and mercenaries...and yeah, that's true.

1)Blew up Purgatory and broke out a dangerous criminal. Letting others out in the process, too
2) Working w/ an Assassin and involved with the killing of ..Nasaria Dantius?
3) Working with original founder of the Blue suns, ..or Eclipse?

You know what, I apologize for the rambling, aimless post. There was something I was trying to get at, but I think I'm getting too sleepy to do this and I've already typed too much to delete it all now. Maybe someone can mine for a point in there, and help me flesh it out? lol

[ubermensch007]

iakus wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

To piggy back on the sentiments of that fanfic by JKoopman -- I just wanted to say a few things about How Ashley could be viewed in a comedic light at times.We all know she's beautiful.We all know that she's strong and that she has a damn good sense of humor But consider what we have seen.

In Mass Effect 1.When we first see Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams.She comes across as being totally Bad-Ass.She's defending the colony, protecting a war photographer and journalist.She tells him to "Get down!" And she starts firing her assault rifle at the bad-guys...

The stand-up comedian and political commentator Bill Maher once said, "A hero is someone who goes in the direction that others flee from."

When we next see her... After Shepard and Alenko are on the ground.She is Running away -- from what they are trying to find.She's traveling in the Exact Opposite direction that they are.

And then on Horizon.After all the fighting is over.She just happens to stroll out, all - nonchalantly.And as casually as all-get-out! Like nothing just happened.   If you think about it... It's kind of HILLARIOUS...

It's like -- Who the hell is this character. I'm I suppose to take them seriously? BioWare.Or are they comedic relief?!

Well, point of order...

When you meet her on Eden Prime when she's running, she does go into a diving roll, draws a pistol, and blows apart two geth before taking cover behind some rocks.  So it's not like she's pulling a Sir Robin there...

Horizon, Horizon's just a mess.  No question.

Yeah well... I still think some moments with Ash are kind of Monty Pythonish

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...
 
Regarding your points, I have these observations:
 
Point 1 - It is evident that Williams was indeed briefed. She refers to Alliance intel that indicated that Shepard was alive and working for Cerberus. Since we are not aware of the time frame between Shepard's visit and his assault on Horizon, we cannot know if Anderson would have had the time to send any updated information to Williams or if such information would be relevant to her mission on Horizon. An encrypted burst transmission may have blown her cover as an Alliance liaison and sending a courier would have taken the time it took to travel from Citadel station to Horizon.
 
Point 2 - All battlefield commanders would love the equipment you describe because it would effectively reduce the fog of war from combat. First, I have already described in great detail why the targeting system failed and shall not do so again. Secondly, the Collectors possess advanced technology that would be difficult in the best of circumstances to overcome. Also, we do not know the state of equipment on Horizon. As far as we know, Comms blackouts may have been commonplace rather than a pre-attack indicator. This is because funding colonies is expensive and equipment would be one of the things where corners could be cut. Horizon is a civilian installation, not a military one. Third, I got the impression that the defense systems had already been installed, checked out, and passed inspection by the techs before they departed. This means that the guns were sabotaged after the final checkout of the weapons system. As EDI remarked, there were subtle errors in the targeting software that prevented the guns from acquiring targets. This indicates that the guns were sabotaged post inspection.
 
Point 3 - Backup is nice if you can get it, but without specific intel where do you send it? The Alliance Outreach program was a shotgun approach to deal with the colony raids. Are you saying that all of the colonies should have been sent these resources or just Horizon? If just Horizon then what intel leads you to believe that it is indexed for an attack? I have it on good authority that lengthy military service does not make one precognizant or omniscient and this is true even of the great captains. Where were the pre-attack indicators that signaled that Horizon was the next colony to be hit?
 
TIM pressed the right buttons to maneuver Williams into place on Horizon, but he would have insured that she would have been sent there with minimal resources. If he hadn't, he would have risked his set up to failure. Imagine if the Collectors had arrived in system with an Alliance battle group in orbit and a battalion of heavy infantry on the ground supported by planetary defenses. Do you really think that they would have attacked or would they have found easier prey? Up until Horizon, the Collectors preferred stealth to open conflict. After Horizon, it really didn't make any difference because the cat was out of the bag thanks to Shepard.
 
Further, how could Anderson have known that Shepard's arrival at the Citadel, at his request by the way, would result in Horizon being attacked? How do we know that Williams wasn't on a circuit of colonies inspecting recent installations of defense systems and Horizon was her latest stop? The only thing that we know for sure is that TIM was trunked deep into Alliance command and intelligence and it was those compromises that allowed TIM to set up Horizon for the Collector Assault.
 
As usual, you give thoughtful and intelligent counterarguments, but here I believe you to be incorrect in blaming Anderson.

Good arguments there.

Point 1: Ashley obviously had been given what intel had been available before she was sent to Horizon. But rumours and hearsay + Ash's natural scepticism doesn't equal her being very optimistic about it. Regarding Anderson and the timeline between Shepard's visit and the Horizon attack: I always go to see Anderson straight away, then take my time doing recruitment missions and Zaeed/Kasumi's Loyalty Missions. This is more than enough time for him to send a courier with a detailed follow up briefing for Ashley. However, if you visit Anderson immediately before the Horizon attack, then he could have hidden a coded message in a regular transmission:

"Shepard still alive. Unwillingly working with Cerberus to stop colony raids. Collectors responsible for attacks, suspect link with Reapers. Make all available preparations just in case."

Point 2: Fair enough if the guns were sabotaged. But if they weren't working, it should have been a priority for the Alliance to get another team of techs back to Horizon to get them running again, especially after Shepard visits Anderson.

Point 3: Maybe a battle group would be too much. At the very least though, Anderson could have protected one of his operatives who he knows Cerberus and the Collectors might be taking an interest in. It wouldn't have to be a large commitment. The Alliance has several Normandy-class frigates, the Ain Jalut being mentioned as attacking a batarian outpost. Anderson could have stationed one of them in a convenient spot, told them to get stealthed up and wait until Ash was done with her mission. As a Councillor/Admiral, Anderson has the clout to get this happening. TIM is manipulative, but if the Alliance decided to role in some covert reinforcements for their undercover officer, it's not like he could stop them.

My point is, with a few extra precautions and communications, Horizion could have been a lot better.

[knightnblu]

rapscallioness said - "The whole thing does stink to high heaven as far as it seems like someone, somewhere actually wanted the Collectors to succeed. Or at least land and take some colonists. Maybe even TIM thought that if Ash/Kaidan got snatched, it would give Shepard an even greater motivation to get to that Collector base."
 
That has been my contention for a while now and it is the reason why I want to feed TIM to a wood chipper.
 
rapscallioness continued:
 
1) They never saw Shepard actually get killed
 
Neither did Joker. This could be used to prove that Shepard faked his own death.

2) They did see Shepard on Horizon working with Cerberus
                                                                                         
This could be used to prove a treason charge. Additionally, if the Council's reaction is any indicator, this may mean that the attitude of the Alliance is predisposed to be hostile.

3) Shepard saved at least half the colony from the Collectors (and remember even tho the VS sees the Collectors abducting colonists, they still think Cerberus could be working with the Collectors. I don't understand that..Shepard's working w/ Cerb. and Collectors wking w/ Cerb...fighting each other)
 
TIM had undermined Shepard's credibility with both the Alliance and the Citadel Council. Also, everyone knows that Cerberus is slick, unprincipled, and ruthless. The reason TIM wanted Shepard's character assassinated is to force him to rely solely on Cerberus because all of his old contacts would have been closed to him. His plan worked magnificently. Even Shepard's mentor and former commander, Anderson, no longer trusts Shepard fully.
 
TIM is a masterful manipulator and that makes his true motives hard to discern. Therefore, where Cerberus is concerned all one can really say is that for them the ends justifies the means. If one plays as the lone survivor, you learn that Cerberus fed an Alliance unit to thresher maws to see how Alliance forces would fare in such an encounter. Who's to say that Shepard wasn't being tested in a similar fashion to see how best to battle the Collectors as a human enemy? Further, Shepard being unaware of such a test would not be surprising given that the Alliance unit was not told that they were slated for a deadly test. While I am not making that assertion, it is likely that the prosecution certainly will.
 
Made Nightwing said - "I always go to see Anderson straight away, then take my time doing recruitment missions and Zaeed/Kasumi's Loyalty Missions. This is more than enough time for him to send a courier with a detailed follow up briefing for Ashley. However, if you visit Anderson immediately before the Horizon attack, then he could have hidden a coded message in a regular transmission:

"Shepard still alive. Unwillingly working with Cerberus to stop colony raids. Collectors responsible for attacks, suspect link with Reapers. Make all available preparations just in case.""
 
Perhaps, but I still have my doubts. Comms between command and deep cover units must be kept to a minimum or you risk exposing them. While I admit that it may have been possible to send such a transmission, it is by no means likely for a couple of reasons. First, there is no way that TIM would have allowed that message to reach it's destination. We already know that TIM was deep within Alliance command and their intelligence. Therefore, it is likely that any such message would not have escaped his notice. As proof of TIM's capability to intercept such coded transmissions, I give you the derelict Collector ship mission.
 
Secondly, because we don't know what Williams' mission objectives were, we have no way of knowing if such knowledge would have had any impact on her mission. While the information may have been very important to Williams personally, it may not have been important from an mission parameters standpoint and that was why no attempt was made. Just as Anderson adopted a wait and see approach with Shepard, he could just as easily decided to wait to inform Ashley of Shepard's status until her next scheduled contact time.
 
Made Nightwing said - "At the very least though, Anderson could have protected one of his operatives who he knows Cerberus and the Collectors might be taking an interest in. It wouldn't have to be a large commitment. The Alliance has several Normandy-class frigates, the Ain Jalut being mentioned as attacking a batarian outpost. Anderson could have stationed one of them in a convenient spot, told them to get stealthed up and wait until Ash was done with her mission."
 
He sure could have, but would it have been the wisest decision? The Alliance has no authority in the Terminus and the humans on colonies in the Terminus are barely tolerant of anything that has to do with the Alliance. Thus, the more Alliance personnel you send to the Terminus the greater will be the negative reaction to their presence. The problem with being a guest, is that it requires the forbearance of a host and that can be withdrawn at any time and for any reason. In fact, when we began the Horizon cut scene we see Williams grousing about how poorly she was being treated by the colonists. This indicates that the Alliance's position there is shaky. With regards to the Terminus, the withdrawal of the Alliance's welcome would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of colonists and perhaps that is why Anderson did not choose to reinforce her.

[Made Nightwing]

@knightblu, fair enough. I don't completely accept your points (a stealth frigate could go undetected, and wouldn't spark anything), but they're reasonably valid.

But, if Anderson had those reasons, then he would have had less excuse to berate the VS, since he knowingly and willingly withheld those facts for the goood of the mission.

I still maintain that he could have gotten a message through regardless of TIM's interference. TIM's smart, but Anderson is no naive choir boy. If he'd set his mind to it, it would have been simple to slip a couple of hundred short burst transmissions through to Ash. The colonists wouldn't begrudge her a few 'messages from her family', and TIM couldn't stop all of them.

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@knightblu, fair enough. I don't completely accept your points (a stealth frigate could go undetected, and wouldn't spark anything), but they're reasonably valid.

But, if Anderson had those reasons, then he would have had less excuse to berate the VS, since he knowingly and willingly withheld those facts for the goood of the mission.

I still maintain that he could have gotten a message through regardless of TIM's interference. TIM's smart, but Anderson is no naive choir boy. If he'd set his mind to it, it would have been simple to slip a couple of hundred short burst transmissions through to Ash. The colonists wouldn't begrudge her a few 'messages from her family', and TIM couldn't stop all of them.

IT Support: Uhhh...Chief Williams, you have 983 messages waiting for you in your inbox.
Williams: 983!?!??!
IT Support: Yeah, they are from a D. Anderson. The subject is "Shhhhhhhh," whatever that means.
Williams: ????....Oh!! Yeah, he's my...cousin.  Sometimes he gets excited and multiple mails. I'll have a chat with him.
IT Support: Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Have a great weekend my friend!

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@knightblu, fair enough. I don't completely accept your points (a stealth frigate could go undetected, and wouldn't spark anything), but they're reasonably valid.

But, if Anderson had those reasons, then he would have had less excuse to berate the VS, since he knowingly and willingly withheld those facts for the goood of the mission.

I still maintain that he could have gotten a message through regardless of TIM's interference. TIM's smart, but Anderson is no naive choir boy. If he'd set his mind to it, it would have been simple to slip a couple of hundred short burst transmissions through to Ash. The colonists wouldn't begrudge her a few 'messages from her family', and TIM couldn't stop all of them.

IT Support: Uhhh...Chief Williams, you have 983 messages waiting for you in your inbox.
Williams: 983!?!??!
IT Support: Yeah, they are from a D. Anderson. The subject is "Shhhhhhhh," whatever that means.
Williams: ????....Oh!! Yeah, he's my...cousin.  Sometimes he gets excited and multiple mails. I'll have a chat with him.
IT Support: Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Have a great weekend my friend!

BRILLIANT The colonists would never suspect a thing

And alas, my weekend is over. But I enjoy uni and I only have three classes on tomorrow anyway.

[Optiic7]

Hell yeah i love Ash!!! of course she's still my girl

[knightnblu]

Williams accusations on Horizon does not make sense. When interpreted through the character's personal history, her reaction to the revelation that Shepard is working for Cerberus is disproportional to the knowledge that Williams has. We know that her grandfather, General Williams was in command of the Shanxi garrison at the beginning of the First Contact war. The Turians took out the orbitals and then struck the ground forces decimating the General's forces. When Alliance troops were detected moving amongst the civilian population, the Turians dropped rocks from orbit killing the troops and any civilians caught in the blast. The General's troops were starving to death, the civilians were continuously dying, and there was no way to advise the Alliance of the situation on Shanxi. The General was locked into a no win situation and surrendered.
 
The Alliance was embarrassed by the General's surrender and branded him a traitor to humanity, bringing him back to Earth in irons. There was never any trial, but he was demoted and assigned to a desk until he retired to become a construction worker. So why is all of this important?
 
Because Ashley does the exact same thing to Shepard. She is aware of nebulous rumors circulating about Shepard being alive and working for Cerberus. But she has no concrete evidence to prove the rumors to be true. Nor does she have any direct knowledge as to whether Shepard is alive or not. Horizon changes all of that.
 
After surviving the Collector assault on Horizon and personally witnessing the abduction of 1/3rd of the colony, she meets Shepard after he forces the Collectors to flee. She does not leap for joy when she sees him, but she is angry at him. She tells Delann that he is in the presence of a God, but to herself she thinks "you b*stard." But based on what? The rumors? Why would she believe them before she has even spoken to Shepard?
 
Williams claims to have loved Shepard and that implies a trust. What happened to that trust? How did it evaporate so quickly? I don't know, but she immediately accuses Shepard of abandoning her. "How could you put me through that?" were her words. When Shepard tells her that it was beyond his ability to do so because he was in a comma while he was being rebuilt by Cerberus, she backs away from him as if he were toxic. She then asks, "So...you're with Cerberus now?" It is more an accusation than a question.
 
She then goes on to tell Shepard that she can't believe that the reports were right before Shepard even has the opportunity to respond to her accusation. When Garrus mentions the fact that Ashley already knew that Shepard was working for Cerberus she replies that Alliance intel said that Cerberus may be behind the colonies that were being hit and that Shepard was working for the enemy. Finally, Shepard manages to get a word in edgewise and tells her that he and Cerberus share the same goal in protecting the colonies, but that he doesn't answer to Cerberus. Ashley then goes on the attack moving in on Shepard physically and says, "Do you really believe that or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think?'
 
The first part of that sentence challenges Shepard's intelligence while the second half suggest that he is being manipulated like a fool. But again, based on what? While rumors and innuendo may be enough for some people, Ashley is the one person who should take a breath and find out the facts before she goes around backstabbing somebody on a rumor.
 
Her own grandfather was castigated on little more that rumor and innuendo and she has expressed a great deal of angst over it, yet she is more than willing to do exactly the same thing to Shepard. That literally makes no sense at all. It's as if she were saying "I love you, but the rumors say that you are a b*stard and so I'll have nothing more to do with you despite my personal knowledge to the contrary and your objections." Because that is exactly what she is saying when she accuses Shepard of betraying the Alliance, Anderson, and her.
 
What astounds me the most are the people who champion her for taking this position and say that it really is all Shepard's fault. Shepard never should have worked with Cerberus, Shepard should have explained himself more fully, Shepard should have communicated with the Council and told them that he was being forced to work for Cerberus, Shepard doesn't like the color blue. While I know that last bit doesn't make any sense, neither do the other reasons when examined in the cold light of reason.
 
There was nothing that Shepard could have said or done that would have altered the course of his actions because TIM had designed it so. Shepard was playing on TIM's field and TIM had stacked the deck to make certain that the game ended in his favor. It really is that simple. In fact, the only choice that Shepard had was whether to blow the Collector base or not and that choice was distant from Horizon, but we are still left with trying to explain Ashley's actions on Horizon.
 
This is why I say that Ashley acted like a child on Horizon. She gave no credence to the words of the man that she said she loved, she ignored her own personal knowledge of Shepard's character, she also ignored the events that transpired around her during the attack, and she believed the rumors hook, line and sinker. And everybody is fine with that? Not me.
 
Ashley's character suggests that she would at least find out the facts before she went off half cocked, she doesn't. Her background suggests that she would be sensitive to a person who is locked into a situation that they cannot escape from, she isn't. As an NCO she has a responsibility to gather the facts before making a judgment, but where Shepard is concerned she does the opposite. I don't know who the woman was I met on Horizon was after the Collectors fled, but it wasn't Ashley Williams. At least not the Williams I knew from ME1.
 
In a lukewarm and semi-sincere apology sent by email later, Williams states specifically that she has changed. Indeed she has. I don't know what roads that she has traveled from ME1 to ME2, but she certainly is not the same crewman that was my former LI. In ME3, I want an explanation for that or else I don't want her on my team and I have already proven that I can achieve success without her and given the events on Horizon, she doesn't want to be there anyway.

[Iakus]

A very good summary of the situation.   I actually hope a dev reads your post and comments on it, though I'm not holding my breath.  

One small commment:

She then goes on to tell Shepard that she can't believe that the reports were right before Shepard even has the opportunity to respond to her accusation. When Garrus mentions the fact that Ashley already knew that Shepard was working for Cerberus she replies that Alliance intel said that Cerberus may be behind the colonies that were being hit and that Shepard was working for the enemy. Finally, Shepard manages to get a word in edgewise and tells her that he and Cerberus share the same goal in protecting the colonies, but that he doesn't answer to Cerberus. Ashley then goes on the attack moving in on Shepard physically and says, "Do you really believe that or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think?'
 

This is the only part of the tirade that does make sense, imo.  To me, it would be totally in character fro Cerberus to manipulate people, either through deception or outright mind control to achieve their goals.  When Ash said that to my Shepard, I actually paused to consider the possbility that this is the "twist" to the story.  If I have to stop and ponder the possibility, I'm not gonna blame Ash for raising it.  

But the parallels to General Williams are way beyond coincidental.  I'm thinking (hoping) that the writers are aware of it and Ash's reactions are somehow deliberate, that there are details in place Shepard isn't aware of, and this confrontation was simply clumisly implemented.  

Otherwise the scene is beyond stupid

[redbaron76]

But shepard is not locked in a situation he can not escape. TIM said that Shepard and Cerberus can part ways any time shepard chooses. Shepard does not leave, therefore Knightoblu position is wrong. Ashley did not react wrong. She reacted emotionaly and if knightoblu read ash's email properly he will see that there is no logic to his statement. WHole point of horizon was to get shepard to concetrate on suicide mission. To get in touch with ashley and to try to cut off his ties to alliance and council which both fail. As we can see in mE 3 Cerberus is working for reapers therefore Ashley right in calling shepard traitor no logic in blaming VS for what obviously wasspur of the moment emotional reaction to seeing shepard alive and working with cerberus. And acting out of anger to that scene is childish and not logical. Because what we know of cerberus in ME 3 We now know that working with cerberus in mE 2 was bad choice. And Knightoblu if you are offended by words easely then stop playing games, because your reaction is same as five year old kids. VS was very emotional on Horizon and as email said more confused by situation. And no normal person would give shepard chance in trusting after knowing what shepard ws against cerberus in ME 1 and now working with cerberus. Lets face it it looks like shepard faked death, to join the cerberus and betray alliance. So hell yeas I would not trust my own SHepard in same situation.

[ubermensch007]

Where I am now with Ash.I find that I want to hurt her... I want to hurt her.In exactly the same fashion that she hurt me: My Shepard (with her words and inaction) I won't throw her out of an airlock or anything as extreme as that.
But this will suffice:

There was a time when i thought that having either Kaidan or Ashley as Spectres in Mass Effect 3 was preposterous...

That time has passed ...You see it occured to me a few days ago that with Commander John Shepard being the first human Spectre.Captain of the Normandy.Savior of the Citadel Council.That whatever human is determined to be good enough to follow in his footsteps.To join the ranks of the Spectres.Everyone and their mothers
too.Will want to know what Shepard the Spectre's opinion of the new human Spectre is.

This I believe is where Khalisah Bint Sinan al-Jilani can BEST make her apperance in Mass Effect 3.

She accost Shepard and ask him what he thinks of the Systems Alliance New Spectre?

Shepard can reply by either choosing the conversation wheel options of:

- I Approve

- No Comment

- I DO NOT Approve

Khalisah Bint Sinan al-Jilani: Commander Shepard -- Commander Shepard.May I have a moment of your time? Shepard nods in approvement of her request. One of your former cremates of the Normandy SR -1 has been appointed to the ranks of the Spectres.Do you believe her to be -- up to scratch?

Commander Shepard: You speak of Lieutenent Ashley Williams.The soldier who saw her whole unit wiped out when the Geth attacked the human colony of Eden Prime.The Alliance Official sent to investigate the colony of Horizon.Which lost a third of its colonist b/c she failed to get the Guardian Lasers to operate properly.I knew her as a Gunnery Chief.I've crossed paths with her from time to time since then.And I have seen nothing at this time or when she was under my command to convince me that she was suited to be among the ranks of the Spectres.

Khalisah al-Jilani is stunned by this admission.In her wildest dreams, she never imagined capturing the Commander saying something this provocative.

Khalisah: Commander.... Can you-- elaborate a bit more?

Shepard: I'll never forget what Ms. Williams once said to me about the Council:

Ashley: "As noble as the Council members may seem now.If there backs are against the wall,they will
abandon us." Look.If your fighting a bear and the only way for you to survive is to sick your dog on it and run.You'll do it! As much as you love your dog, it isn't human.Its not racism, not really.Members of
thier species will always be more important to them, than humans are."

When I met her last year on Horizon she professed:

"The Alliance is in my blood." and "I know wher my loyalties lie.

Err... Does this sound like a canidate for the Spectres? Lieutenent Williams has made it perfectly clear that her career and service in the Systems Alliance matters more to her than anything else in her life.Patriotism is a double edged sword: It can be the motivating force for great good for ones community or cause great harm to that community and others.

We knew of a Spectre like that.His name was Saren Arterious.He discoverd an ancient alien star-ship which was the flagship of the Geth that attacked the Citadel in 2183.He sought to use this ship to elevate the Turian Hierarchy above all the other sentient races in the galaxy.To give them an advantage over everyone else.Though his Spectre status was revoked.He caused alot of problems before we brought him down.

I would not care to see his like, ever again..."

Can you say, "OUCH" Damn Shepard doesn't hold back.

If Shepard does not endorse Ashley as the first female human Spectre.Just think about how much heat
would come down on him and her.It would Kick-Ass...Some might accuse Shepard of sexism.Ashley would more than likely be humilated by Shepard's cander to the Reporter: To a point far greater than her grandfather ever was.

Some may say that Shepard would have to be a real douchebag to do something like that to Ashley.Believing it to be a renegade option.I do not.I think it would take tremendous courage for Commander Shepard to speak
his mind and express his true feelings about how wrong he believes her appointment to the community of Spectres is...

Ashley could decide to tough it out and prove the naysayers wrong.But anyway you look
at it.Ashley and Shepard would be rivals from this point on -- perhaps...

In closing... How would Ashley feel -- hearing the man that she professes to have once loved.The man of whom she once said,"Made her feel good enough." Now say,"That he does not think that she is good enough." ?!

Modifié par ubermensch007, 14 août 2011 - 08:29 .

[SandTrout]

Ash is my main Shep's LI, but I would be happy for her if she moved on with her life. We had our relationship, even if it was cut off too soon, and trying to recreate the past isn't going to end well.

[MegaTommy]

During my 1st playthrough of ME2, i wanted to resist the new romances, because i wanted my Shep to stay faithful to Chief Williams no matter what. I really liked Ash. I really liked how strong and confident she is. I also respected her opinions, even though some of them were pretty controversial.

Horizon however completely destroyed my image of her. So to answer the OP's question- no, Ashley is no longer my girl, Tali is.
Even though Tali (and many others) voiced her dissaproval of Cerberus, she (they) stuck with my Shep no matter the situation.

Modifié par MegaTommy, 12 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[knightnblu]

Response to redbaron76
 
"But shepard is not locked in a situation he can not escape. TIM said that Shepard and Cerberus can part ways any time shepard chooses. Shepard does not leave, therefore Knightoblu position is wrong."
 
Really? Let's examine that shall we? First, TIM does not take risks when he needs to achieve an objective. So what is TIM's objective? It is the preservation of the human colonies. Period. He doesn't care one whit about Shepard, only that he can accomplish his assigned mission. Shepard's carcass was floating out in space until the Shadow Broker snagged it and was preparing to sell his corpse to the Collectors. TIM would have had no heartburn allowing that to happen, but he needed Shepard so he headhunted Liara to steal the corpse from the SB with the intent of resurrecting Shepard. TIM succeeded in obtaining Shepard's corpse.
 
While Shepard's meat was being reanimated, whether Herbert West was involved is anybody's guess, the Collectors began processing human colonies for the creation of a new Reaper. During this time, TIM poisons the well of Shepard's allies, employers, friends, and associates. This effectively eliminates any and all support for Shepard forcing him to rely on Cerberus. As proof of this we have the comments of the Salarian Councilor, TIM, Anderson, Williams, and an inter-Alliance communication. All of this occurs before Shepard is even conscious because TIM is insuring the success of his objectives.
 
Further evidence that TIM is manipulating events behind the scenes is his own admission that information is his weapon. After thirty years of black ops and intel gathering without being caught, I would think that he was damned good at it. As evidence of this we have TIM's operations allowing SB leaks in order to track them back to the SB's agents within Cerberus. After the SB is taken down, TIM closes those leaks. Further, TIM set Williams up on Horizon.
 
Ashley said that the Alliance received a tip that Horizon would be the next colony hit. Who do you think tipped the Alliance? If you have played LotSB then you should have seen the video of Anderson meeting with a Cerberus operative. That operative is a double agent and he's the one that made the tip off. Otherwise, why is that video shown? If you believe that it was to show that Anderson has an insight into Cerberus operations, then you are sadly mistaken. While Anderson believes that his agent is working for him, he is in fact a direct pipeline from TIM to Anderson's ear and TIM only tells him what he wants him to know. The world of shadows is deep indeed and when you delve into such a world you should never take anything at face value.
 
TIM made sure that Ashley Williams pretty little hind end would end up on Horizon by planting information, starting innuendo, and maneuvering the game pieces until he got what he wanted. If TIM would go to those lengths to insure that Williams ended up on Horizon, how far would he go to insure that Shepard remained in his service?
 
TIM has contacts within the Citadel Council, the Alliance, and virtually every other government of note in the galaxy. He had been working them for a while so how much harder would be for him to cut Shepard off from...everything? Shepard could leave and TIM would in no way try to stop him, because he knew that Shepard would have no choice, but to return because nobody else would take him. That was TIM's ace in the hole.
 
If that doesn't mean that Shepard is effectively captured, then I don't know what does. Further, Shepard's own instincts is to protect the innocent. If Shepard jets, then how many more will perish? Nope, Shepard is stuck just like General Williams was stuck. He has no other options and he has no other choice.
 
 
"VS was very emotional on Horizon and as email said more confused by situation. And no normal person would give shepard chance in trusting after knowing what shepard ws against cerberus in ME 1 and now working with cerberus." "... and if knightoblu read ash's email properly he will see that there is no logic to his statement."
 
I misread the apology did I? Well, let's take a look.
 
"Subject: Hey there. (I would have said "Apology for being an ass on Horizon, but ok)
 
Shepard-
 
I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon.(Really? Which part? That I'm a traitor, that I betrayed the Alliance, that I betrayed Anderson, that I was mind controlled, that I betrayed you, or that I was too stupid to realize that I was being manipulated?) When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered.(What? Are you saying that you hurt so bad that you had to call me a traitor, say that I was mind controlled, and stupid? Are you serious? How the hell does that excuse your crap on Horizon? Oh sure, you gave me a tentative hug, while you were shaking with rage, I guess that's something) But I'm not who I was then (Now THAT I believe), and neither are you. (Sorry sweetheart, I woke up the same man that I was and if you can't recognize that then you never really knew me and were in love with an illusion)
 
I don't know what's true anymore. (I hear that psychotropics can help with that) Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year. (Possibly, because you were planning my evisceration)
 
I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon.(FINALLY! Dawn breaks over marble head! Too bad that she arrived at this conclusion only after I'd been drawn and quartered) I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck. (So...where's the "I was wrong, Shepard" or "What I fool I was, Shepard," or "Here's how I arrived at that conclusion only AFTER I eviscerated you on Horizon, Shepard?" It is way too little and woefully under explained)
 
Just stay alive out there... Skipper.(Why? So you can have a second chance at tearing me a new one?) I don't know what the future holds, (I do, GTFOMS) but I can't lose you a second time. (Sugar, I hate to tell you this, but you lost me on Horizon)
 
--Ash
 
A lot of you say that Ashley is just a frail, fragile, hurting little woman, to which I say bullsh!t. She's a combat hardened NCO who would just as soon slit your throat as to say good morning. She should know what the words traitor, enemy, and Reapers means. She should have enough control over her emotional faculties to be able to analyze and understand a tactical situation before making a snap judgment. She doesn't do any of it. She just hoists her hind end up on her shoulders and goes off half cocked choosing to take the words of strangers over that of the man that she knows and claims to have loved. That is NOT an NCO it is a loose cannon.
 
"And Knightoblu if you are offended by words easely then stop playing games, because your reaction is same as five year old kids."
 
Wow, that's a rather nice little ad hominem you've created there redbaron76. Hit a nerve did I with that last post? How about this, instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks, why don't you stick with the facts instead and base your arguments upon those. I find that when someone resorts to such tactics, they are long on emotion and very short on reasoning ability.

[redbaron76]

WHy dont you grow up. Lets resort to facts. Cereberus is a terrorist organization. So when shepard is working for them is an act of Treason since he still is an active alliance millitary person. So He is a traitor. So get used to that fact knightoblu. And you didd not hit a nerve because you are acting like a five year old kid trowing a temper tantrum. ALso another fact you missed is that shepards body was found by the blue suns on the planet normandy crashed. And at the moment she was very emotional and even battle hardened NCO"S have moments of emotional weaknes. So grow up and quit ranting and raving on how VS screwed you over on horizon bcause they did not. The fact simple is that working with cerberus is a treason any way you look at it.

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...

WHy dont you grow up. Lets resort to facts. Cereberus is a terrorist organization. So when shepard is working for them is an act of Treason since he still is an active alliance millitary person. So He is a traitor. So get used to that fact knightoblu. And you didd not hit a nerve because you are acting like a five year old kid trowing a temper tantrum. ALso another fact you missed is that shepards body was found by the blue suns on the planet normandy crashed. And at the moment she was very emotional and even battle hardened NCO"S have moments of emotional weaknes. So grow up and quit ranting and raving on how VS screwed you over on horizon bcause they did not. The fact simple is that working with cerberus is a treason any way you look at it.

So now, you've resorted to trolling? Help me out here, how does making a personal attack advance your cause? Please explain that to me because I would love to hear your reasoning for it.