1035 réponses à ce sujet

[redbaron76]

But you see, i am a VS supporter and think that Horizon incident is both Shepards and Ashleys fault. THey need to worke it out. That is the point I am trying to make.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
I think I would run for cover if that happened! In fact, I think that the Reapers would run for cover if they saw that one coming!

Critical Mission Failure...

 
As for the rumors, I suspect that they have been circulating for about 8 - 10 weeks prior to Shepard being released from medical. I think that TIM has been consistently underestimated by the players. The more I examine TIM, Cerberus, and their operations the more convinced I am that they are extremely dangerous and conniving. So much so, that TIM makes Machiavelli look like an amateur. How TIM got that devious is anybody's guess, but it is evident that he is very good at it.

Unfortunately we have no way of knowing when the rumors started.  The colony disappearances started about the same time as Shepard's deth.  Cerberus had SHep's corpse since about a month after that. SHep regained consciouness at least once dutring the lazarus project.  We have no way of knowing when  TIM felt confident enough to start the rumormill going.

And I really don't know what to make of Cerberus at this point.  They're like totally different organizations in ME1 and ME2.  Yes TIM is ruthless and Machiavellian.  But he has not always been subtle.

 
That's why I don't think that TIM would use threats to secure Williams silence on Shepard. It seems too...overt. If TIM were worried about interference from Williams he would simply eliminate her. Which is probably why he had her assigned to Horizon. I think that he thought that Williams would end up with the Collectors and he would have a fully focused Shepard on his team seeking revenge for the loss of his LI/friend. Only it didn't happen, but it did come very, very close.

Like I said, I have no idea which way Shepard would jump.  Maybe he'd kill her like Kahoku or Banes, Or if he suspected the Collector interest in Shepard early on, and she could be "managed" he might simply let her be until her death could accomplish a greater goal (see my theory of the entire crew of the SR2)
 

With regards to promotions, medals, and prestige, I agree with you completely that none of these things matter to Williams. However, she cares a great deal about her family's honor and reputation as defenders of the Alliance. She is deeply embarrassed by the reputation her family received for her grandfather's failure to defeat the Turians and subsequent surrender. She was also bitter about her father working his guts out and never getting anywhere because the Williams family was the goat of the Alliance.

That's just it, she cares about honor.  Not just the appearance of honor.  She's proud of her father despite the fact that he never really advanced in the Alliance.  She's not angry at her father or grandfather, but at the politicians and officials that smeared her fqamily's name.  If something like that happened to Shepard, whether it splashed on her or not, she'd be angry at teh process, not the person.  Because she hates politics.

 Anyone who's yell "You b*stard! You sold us out" to the ambassador to the Citadel in front of the Counci  clearly cares more about doing what's right rather than having a good reputation:D
 

That's why she joined the Alliance. She wanted to prove that the Williams family could be trusted and by extension, that she could be trusted and therefore had value as a human being. In fact, she considers this to be so important, that she is willing to die for it. That is why she was willing to martyr herself on Vrmire with the surviving STG. She could perish in service to the Alliance and cleanse the stain on her family name with her own blood. That, my friend, is serious motivation.
 
Therefore, when she is recognized as one of the heroes of the Citadel, she finally achieves her goal of being just like any other person in the Alliance and that is more precious to her than any medal or formal recognition. She has beaten the curse. Her grandfather died without regaining his honor, her father died trying to restore his father's honor, and at long last, Ashley finally makes the cut.

She joined the Alliance out of duty, not just to clear her family name.   She even admits it's probably not the smartest thing she could have done.  She's honest that way.  Perhaps too honest for her own good.

 

That is the root of her fears about Shepard. By Shepard working for Cerberus she fears that she will be linked by association with him and that the stain will be renewed on her and her family's honor all over again. If you and your dad worked your guts out to achieve the cleansing of your family name, would you so lightly throw it away? Would that not be a betrayal of your father and grandfather? To whom does she owe more loyalty, Shepard or her blood?
 
I think that she picked blood.

I think Ash places personal honor over the appearance of honor any day of the week.  SHe hates politics, and if some sort of stain reared its ugly head, she'd meet it head on, Because it's the right thing to do, even if it's not the smartest thing.  He do9esnt' compromise herself.

"It's not that bad things don't happen to me...But I deal with them myself.  I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a aman to make me happy.  this is who I am.  I like her."

[Iakus]

redbaron76 wrote...

But you see, i am a VS supporter and think that Horizon incident is both Shepards and Ashleys fault. THey need to worke it out. That is the point I am trying to make.

Agreed.

Too many people want to dump it entirely on one or the other.

Notice I often find myself arguing in favor of the VS a lot on this thread, and in Shepard's favor on another one 

[Made Nightwing]

Ryzaki wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Au contraire, it's not the only argument we have, but in most cases it's perfectly legitimate.

Those like knighblu who have more logical reasons, well it's more fun to debate with them. But what Badpie said is indeed a legit response for a whole lot of the vitriol against the VS.

Ah so it's a perfectly legit response to take an arguement out your ass and respond to it when no one said such a thing? 

News to me. 

I guess all the VS supporters must be so hard up on their pixel boyfriend/girlfriend that hey can do no wrong. 

I suppose that's a perfect legit response as well eh? 

Badpie was just dropping in to express his opinion. A whole lot of posters arguments ARE "She should have trusted him because it was Shepard," and I don't think everyone approaches the argument from both sides like knightblu.

Hard up on a pixellated character? Nah. But you seem to be pretty hard up on your pixellated player character(Shepard), that you're convinced everyone should be totally convinced by the logic of your arguments and not display any traces of individuality or conviction?

My advice Ryzaki? (not saying you have to take it) Try not to take everything you read on the internet as a personal attack. It'll save you a lot of needless angst. It's not like you're gonna change anyone's opinion by insulting them back.

[toolfan9284]

No she's not my girl anymore, I've moved on and barring something miraculous I won't be re-affirming our once relationship.

Horizon bugged the heck out of me with the VS, I see both sides if they were a LI. Both of them got cut real deep and it would take alot of work to repair some of that damage. Thinking it'll go more along the lines of being around each other more will probably re-kindle that old flame, rough at the beginning but things will slowly smooth out at the game progresses.

[knightnblu]

Trust is defined as the assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone. This means that as a friend, and most especially as an LI, Ashley could expect to know Shepard's character, his abilities, and his personal integrity and be in a good position to gauge his motives. They had served together, they had fought side by side, they spoke frequently, they had been intimates, and she expressly states that she had loved him. Therefore, the basis exists to say that Ashley trusted Shepard at one time.
Trust must be earned for it to last, and I believe that both Shepard and Williams have earned each others trust with their history together in Mass Effect.
 
However, on Horizon it would appear that Ashley has abandoned her trust and faith in Shepard. Despite Shepard having saved her life twice on Eden Prime and again just before she meets him again on Horizon, she pays no heed or consideration for those facts. As soon as she sees Shepard she is ticked off at him. This is evidenced by Shepard's remark as soon as they embrace because it is so apparent. This is understandable because she feels slighted that he never contacted her despite being amongst the living.
 
When Shepard tells her that he couldn't because he was unconscious while he was being rebuilt by Cerberus, Ashley's anger is not mollified, but magnified by his admission that he is aligned with Cerberus. When Shepard tells her this, Ashley backs away from Shepard increasing the distance between them as if he is toxic. She then tells Shepard that she can't believe that the rumors are true. At that instance, she has convicted Shepard in her mind before he has even had a chance to defend himself. That is the first breach of trust.
 
This is because Williams has already half convicted Shepard before she ever lays eyes on him. It is akin to cocking the hammer of a revolver and aiming it at your target and awaiting only that last little shred of evidence to fall into place before the ever so slight pressure on the trigger allows the hammer to fall discharging the weapon. All it took was Shepard's admission that he was aligned with Cerberus and she fires three times saying that Shepard betrayed the Alliance, Anderson, and me. Breach of trust number two.
 
You can hear Shepard's surprise in his voice as he pleads with Williams to be reasonable. He tells her that she knows him and that he would never be aligned with Cerberus unless it were for the right reasons. She ignores him and that is breach of trust number three.
 
Ashley Williams has convicted Shepard of treason and personal betrayal with the slimmest evidence and in direct contradiction of her personal knowledge of the man. She chooses to believe the rumors rather than to take the word of the man that she loved, knew, and served with. Breach of trust number four.
 
Williams history, and service to the Alliance makes it clear that she understands what the word traitor means. She doesn't use that word lightly and when she uses it on Shepard she is dropping the gavel on him in judgment. That is why she is no longer my LI in Mass Effect. She broke faith with Shepard and why? Because of rumors and innuendo and because she doesn't even bother to listen to Shepard's protestations of innocence.
 
How does an email apology that doesn't even explain her malfunction on Horizon excuse her behavior? How does it negate her breaches of trust? How does it repair the damage that she has done? It doesn't, at least it doesn't for me. That is because it is readily apparent that Williams never really knew Shepard at all.
 
She may have been in awe of the man and she may have liked being in the sack with him, but as for his character, his integrity, his values, she knew nothing. Contrast that with Tali and you see a marked difference.
 
Tali is from a different species and culture, but if you romance her you learn that she truly understands Shepard. How is it that Tali can know Shepard better than a member of his own species? Could it be that it is because she is interested more in the man than his legend? Tali was a friend and she did what Ashley could not, she stood beside Shepard because she trusted him despite having an intense reason to hate Cerberus. Garrus Vakarian did likewise. Neither breached the trust that they had established in ME1. This is not true of Williams.
 
Indeed, even Garrus' presence on Horizon does not give Williams pause. She knows that Cerberus is human supremacist, yet here is a Turian in their service? That should have been a giant red flag that something was not as it appeared to be and was completely ignored with a "et tu Garrus?" from Williams. Even Mordin remarks on this oddity when he first comes aboard the Normandy SR2.
 
This is why I want an explanation from the writers. I believe that we are owed that much in ME3.

[Iakus]

I agree that Ashley expressed trust, and can express friendsship and even love in ME1.  If she's the LI, after stealing the Normandy, and a paragon Shepard calls himself a traitor, she reassures him that they "did what needed to be done" and how he "makes her feel good enough" to be worth struggling with the personal difficulties the name Williams brings.  She was completely sympathetic and understood Shepard.  She was willing to walk off a cliff for him, throwing away what's left of her career and becoming a fugitive from the very organization she was trying to clear her name with.

I have no idea what happened on Horizon.  I'm left to wonder if the writers of that scene were at all fmailiar with ME1 or if they were operating on some kind of Cliff's Notes version of the game.  Maybe the same one used to make the Genesis comic, though that would be an insult to Cliff's Notes.  She's operating without any of ME1's actions being taken into account.  Whoever that was had Ashley's face, but it was not Ashely.  It was some writer using Ashley as a sock puppet to advance the story.

Tali may be "more understanding" of Shepard in ME2, but I am left to wonder if that may remain the case in ME3.  Is any LI safe from meddling for the sake of the story?  Will Miranda accuse Shepard of betrayal in ME3?  Will Tali claim that she still know where her loyalties are (even if Shep doesn't)  Will Jacob claim the Alliance is somehow controling Shep?  All so Shepard can be "freed up" to choose someone else?  Is any relationship safe from tampering?  Is anyone immune from "assuming direct control"?

I want an answer too. The answer better be a doozy too.   And Bioware should feel bad for making that scene to begin with.  

[knightnblu]

I find myself in complete agreement with you. If they can do that to Ashley, who can't they do it to? What's more, I am amazed that none of the gaming mags have picked up on this. Unless I am very much mistaken, not a single word of print has been mentioned regarding the VS behavior on Horizon or the implications for other LI's, as you so aptly describe.

Again, I don't believe that BioWare wanted to go where it ended up. But they breached the trust between Shepard and Williams and made her a rival for command and even a possible adversary regardless of their original intentions. This is because Williams intentions are now unknown and she broke faith with Shepard. That makes her an unknown quantity by default. In short, she's now a wild card.

I had expected a DLC to resolve the situation on Horizon, but it never came. I don't know if that means more surprises related to Williams are on the way for ME3 or if BW intends to repair the relationship between Shepard and Williams, but in my opinion they have a wide gulf between them now.

Admittedly, exploration of the rift between Shepard and Williams would be juicy indeed. BioWare could simply toss the LI/friendship of the VS overboard and go with a rival/adversarial relationship between them in ME3. There is nothing that says that a player cannot be dumped by an LI who is in pursuit of other objectives. The function of an RPG is to elicit an emotional response and negative emotions are fair game.

Additionally, two years has passed between the destruction of the Normandy SR1 and Horizon. Williams may have changed into someone very different from who we knew in the original Mass Effect. A fact that Williams herself admits in her apology. She explicitly states that she has changed and that change may now mean that she considers Shepard to be superfluous to her goals. I guess ME3 will settle the matter.

[Made Nightwing]

OK knightblu, fair enough points.

But remember, Shepard (whether Paragon or Renegade), is occasionally willing to get his hands very dirty. It's not that much of a stretch for Ash to picture a fully Renegade Shep as a Cerberus sympathiser. Hell, ReneShep has even expressed sympathy and admiration for the Terra Firma party in the past. And in a heated emotional state, with the rumours TIM has been spreading, unclear intelligence reports, and Anderson stonewalling her, I really don't see how it's that much of a surprise that Ash loses her temper.

At the end of the day, my argument remains the same. From an in game perspective, Ash was kept in the dark by everyone, misinformed about the man/woman she trusted/loved, and used as bait in a gambit that she had absolutely no chance of winning, despite her will to fight and win. She is a passionate person, put into a situation completely out of her control (the one place she hates being), and confronted with an ethical dilemma that would take most of us weeks to resolve.

Curiously enough, Ash is the one who gets manipulated, not Shepard, and I don't blame her for it. She loses faith in him, and that's alright by me. It brings Shepard down a few levels, and will make the ME3 romance far more satisfying, as Shepard is no longer the idol he was for her in ME1, but an equal.

[redbaron76]

The writers intended for Horizon to be an darrgument between lovers and disagreement among friends. It was supposed to be a test of strenght of feelings between ashley and shepard. And at you knightnblu i say that you are wrong. SHepard still has ashley's trust andwise versa. Read this from her email "
I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time."

And then Logicaly tell me if trust has been lost.

[Iakus]

redbaron76 wrote...

The writers intended for Horizon to be an darrgument between lovers and disagreement among friends. It was supposed to be a test of strenght of feelings between ashley and shepard. And at you knightnblu i say that you are wrong. SHepard still has ashley's trust andwise versa. Read this from her email "
I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time."

And then Logicaly tell me if trust has been lost.

An arguement is understandable.,  But it was badly, badly done.  Honestly, it should have played out in at least two ways, Cerberus sympathizer if Shepard expressed  major prohuman sympathies in ME1 ("Let the Council die" renegade option, support Terra Firma party, etc) and one where Shepard didn't

Because while it makes sense to suspect some Shepards to turn on the Alliance, it's patently ridicuous for others.  I would have respected the scene a lot more if Ash had focused on "Cerberus is using you!" as an arguement rather than "Shepard's a traitor"  As it is, the scene is some kind of "one size fits all" shoehorn job that barely acknowledges a romance, let alone a pattern of behavior.

And it was recently shown on the Restoring Trust thread something Anderson says post Horizon:

Shepard:  "I thought we were friends.  I never expected you to go behind my back."
Anderson:  "We didn't know about you at the time.  And I wouldn't have told you if I did.  What if the Illusive Man was manipulating you?  Lying to you?  The report actually confirmed your story.  I still don't trust Cerberus.  But they were right about the Collectors abducting colonists.  Unfortunately, Williams didn't find anything to convince the Council the Reapers are behind this.  Or even that they exist."

So Ash came through in the end.  Hope remains.  Although this also shows whoever wrote Anderson displayed way more common sense than whoever wrote Ash for the Horizon scene.

[redbaron76]

@ Iakus

I agree with you on that. So the trust is not lost. As far as council is concerned I think only actual reaper attack would convince them. But you also have to realize that Ashley was being emotional. And when you are emotional person does not think clearly on what he/she says. So ashleys outburts and calling Shepard a traitor is emotional and unexpected but excusable due to emotional outburst she suffered at moment that she realized that it was shepard in front of her. And then she might have been threatened or ordered to react that way. SO her actions on horizon while unexpected might have different reasons behind it. ANd they do need to work it out.

[redbaron76]

And I also wonder if the devs did that scene on purpose.

[Iakus]

redbaron76 wrote...

@ Iakus

I agree with you on that. So the trust is not lost. As far as council is concerned I think only actual reaper attack would convince them. But you also have to realize that Ashley was being emotional. And when you are emotional person does not think clearly on what he/she says. So ashleys outburts and calling Shepard a traitor is emotional and unexpected but excusable due to emotional outburst she suffered at moment that she realized that it was shepard in front of her. And then she might have been threatened or ordered to react that way. SO her actions on horizon while unexpected might have different reasons behind it. ANd they do need to work it out.

Except Kaidan, who's far more thoughtful, has dialogue nearly identical to Ash's.  No, this was deliberate on the writers' part, uncaring of actual personality or past relationships.  

being under orders or threatened are possibilitiees.  Long shots, but possible.  I just hope ME3 doesn't screw this up even worse than it already is.

And I also wonder if the devs did that scene on purpose.

Maybe, but like the apology letter, it's nice to get, but emotionally empty.

I mean, here you have a favorite character yelling at your Shepard, accusing him of essentially being a terrorist.  Then leater you get a typwritten apology, and hear secondhand from Anderson that she verified your story.  That still doesn't expunge the confrontation.

The least they could have done was cough up the money for a few extra lines of dialogue in a recorded message.  Something Shepard could listen to while gazing at the picture during the run up to the Omega IV relay?   We know they exist, Ash got one from her sister in ME1.

Thus why it's understandable that people are angry about that scene.  heck, I'm angry about that scene.  I'm just not going to say the VS is "ruined forever" because of one screwup, however major.

[redbaron76]

@ Iakus

She is only accusing you of treason. She was upset and all the emotions from the los she suffered when shepard died 2 years ago came up and overhelmed her. I agrre that dves should have handled the whole ashley scenario a bit better. But I also think that what ever they planned for continuation of Ashley Shepard romance will more than make up for their slight mishandling of Ashley on horizon. And I also think that Ashley's email might have been edited by alliance or cerberus spy, to sound the way it did. The email was enough for me to realize that my shepard and ashley have lots of stuff to discuss in ME 3 besides killing reapers. And lots of people plan to use horizon incident to side line ashley or kaidan and I think that is wrong. Shepard needs to be an officer first and little disagreement should not prevent utilization of VS in missions.

[Iakus]

"only accusing you of treason" is not a "slight mishandling" That's a powerful charge to make, even as an emotional outburst. The writers seriously miscalculated that scene.

I liked the content of the letter. But reading it rather than hearing Ash say it made the letter feel pale and empty compared to the scene on Horizon. Like it was a last minute addition, a bone to throw at people who might complain. There is simply no comparison and cannot make up for it.

I am curious to see how the relationship evolves with Ash. But given the standing between Ash and Shepard and the status of other LIs, there's a lot of catching up to do. I can't help but think that if this relationship is given the attention it deserves, there will be complaints of "favoritism" from Talimancers, Liara fans, etc.

Definitely willing to try, regardless.

[knightnblu]

iakus said "And it was recently shown on the Restoring Trust thread something Anderson says post Horizon:
 
Shepard: "I thought we were friends. I never expected you to go behind my back."
Anderson: "We didn't know about you at the time. And I wouldn't have told you if I did. What if the Illusive Man was manipulating you? Lying to you? The report actually confirmed your story. I still don't trust Cerberus. But they were right about the Collectors abducting colonists. Unfortunately, Williams didn't find anything to convince the Council the Reapers are behind this. Or even that they exist.""
 
 
This is probably the ONLY reason that Ashley even sent an apology in the first place. She didn't send it because she was actually sorry about what she had said, but because she was proven wrong in her assertions. If anything, that even makes her look worse. It's like she thought to herself, "Oh crap, now I have to apologize to that treasonous dirtbag for what I said on Horizon. Oh well, better get to it." Notice however, that she never asks for Shepard's forgiveness in her tepid mea culpa. I guess that is just a bridge too far.
 
As far as TIM manipulating Shepard, I think that is a foregone conclusion. TIM manipulates everybody and that includes Miranda. He's like a spider weaving a web designed to entangle everybody he comes across. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't responsible for the rift between Miranda and her father in the first place with the objective of securing her to his service. Just another reason to feed him to a wood chipper. I am really growing to hate that S.O.B.. Which, oddly enough, is the mark of an excellent character.
 
As far as Anderson's reveal, I'm not sure what to think. I knew that he didn't trust me any longer, but I didn't know how deep that actually went. I guess it takes dying to show you who your friends really are and that they are few and far between. 
 
Made Nightwing said "At the end of the day, my argument remains the same. From an in game perspective, Ash was kept in the dark by everyone, misinformed about the man/woman she trusted/loved, and used as bait in a gambit that she had absolutely no chance of winning, despite her will to fight and win. She is a passionate person, put into a situation completely out of her control (the one place she hates being), and confronted with an ethical dilemma that would take most of us weeks to resolve."
 
And yet Ashley resolves it in two minutes and fifty-five seconds. As soon as she learns that you are with Cerberus, she cuts you off like a gangrenous limb. I wholeheartedly agree with you that she was lied to, manipulated, used like a tissue, etc., but in the end she broke faith with the man that she knew for the accusations that were made by strangers. Which is the reason for my signature.
 
Like you, I never wanted this. I never wanted to be on the outs with Ashley. She was one of my all time favorite characters and she was my ME LI. It rankles still and it has been a long while since I was first introduced to that scene. That's why I don't even want her on my ship, much less on my squad.
 
redbaron76 said "The writers intended for Horizon to be an darrgument between lovers and disagreement among friends. It was supposed to be a test of strenght of feelings between ashley and shepard. And at you knightnblu i say that you are wrong. SHepard still has ashley's trust andwise versa. Read this from her email "
I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time."

And then Logicaly tell me if trust has been lost."
 
Yup, that's what it was supposed to have been, but the reality is far different than that. Where in her emailed apology does she even ask for forgiveness? She doesn't. Even the tone of the apology is all wrong, and I assure you that I use the term "apology" loosely. I can't help, but to agree with iacus that BioWare screwed the pooch on the reunion scene. It just doesn't make any sense.
 
As far as telling you if trust has been lost, I believe that I already have. I certainly don't have any for her anymore.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

It all should depend what kind of character your Shepard is. Would he stay mad at Ashley or let it go? Would he feel betrayed? Would he no longer have any feelings for Ashley? My Shepard truly does love Ashley and doesn't care what she says because nothing can ever change that. He will do whatever it takes to win her heart back. As far as my Shepard is concerned, what Ash said on Horizon about him being a traitor is forgiven, given what shes been through. I tend to play a more understanding character so my Shepard understands Ashley's position. It all depends on your character.

Modifié par SpEcIaLRyAn, 16 août 2011 - 02:54 .

[rapscallioness]

iakus wrote...

redbaron76 wrote...

But you see, i am a VS supporter and think that Horizon incident is both Shepards and Ashleys fault. THey need to worke it out. That is the point I am trying to make.

Agreed.

Too many people want to dump it entirely on one or the other.

Notice I often find myself arguing in favor of the VS a lot on this thread, and in Shepard's favor on another one 

^This is the bottom line of how I feel abt. it all.  (Heck, I've still got his pic. up on my desk...:innocent:)

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

This is probably the ONLY reason that Ashley even sent an apology in the first place. She didn't send it because she was actually sorry about what she had said, but because she was proven wrong in her assertions. If anything, that even makes her look worse. It's like she thought to herself, "Oh crap, now I have to apologize to that treasonous dirtbag for what I said on Horizon. Oh well, better get to it." Notice however, that she never asks for Shepard's forgiveness in her tepid mea culpa. I guess that is just a bridge too far.

Actually, the first sentence in the letter is "I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon"  That's pretty much asking forgiveness.

Plus the fact that only a LI gets the letter, strongly implies that the message is from the heart.  A nonromanced Shepard gets nothing.

Believe me I would have preferred a face-to-face version of this letter, or at least a recording.  But I think it's supposed to be a legitimate apology.  Cold comfort, but there it is.
 

As far as TIM manipulating Shepard, I think that is a foregone conclusion. TIM manipulates everybody and that includes Miranda. He's like a spider weaving a web designed to entangle everybody he comes across. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't responsible for the rift between Miranda and her father in the first place with the objective of securing her to his service. Just another reason to feed him to a wood chipper. I am really growing to hate that S.O.B.. Which, oddly enough, is the mark of an excellent character.

Huh, and here I suspect that TIM finally got tired of the rift between Miranda and her father, figured Miranda's outlived her usefulness, and puts her in charge of the Lazarus Project hoping she gets killed on the Suicide Mission.  Voila!  Cerberus regains an important financial backer!  ::goes to apply more tin foil to hat::
 

As far as Anderson's reveal, I'm not sure what to think. I knew that he didn't trust me any longer, but I didn't know how deep that actually went. I guess it takes dying to show you who your friends really are and that they are few and far between.

Oh I think Anderson trusts Shepard.  But his distrust of Cerberus kept him quiet.  Even if Shepard's completely on the level, he's now a security risk due to his association with Cerberus.  His ship is crewed by Cerberus, has a Cerberus AI.  We already know the ship is absolutely infested with listening devices.  Who knows what Shepard might let slip, even accidentally?  And that's not even assuming Shepard isn't indoctrinated or has a chip in his head.

 No Anderson played it smart.  He believed Shepard, but was careful not to reveal anything he didn't want Cerberus to know.  I don't blame him at all.

Modifié par iakus, 16 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[rapscallioness]

I'm curious tho about some time frames:

How long exactly had the Collectors been....collecting? I know TIM said, "While you were sleeping...". So, that implies, what 2 years? Maybe one year? Where was the Alliance? Even one year seems like quite awhile for them to not be doing anything. I know the colonies were in and/or skirting the Terminus, and alot of colonist, from what I gather don't like Alliance. But your ppl are getting snatched left and right.

Negotiate w/ Batarians. Let them know that you're just there because of the attacks. It just seems like they weren't doing anything.

And of course, I woulda initially suspected the Batarians of attacking the encroaching human colonies, myself. Not Cerberus. (Did Alliance & VS get that "tip" from TIM, too?)

Then there's the whole..what did Cerberus really bring Shep back for? Cuz if the Collectors were attacking b4 Shep died, then that's 2 years. That's a long time for no one to be doing Anything. Even Cerberus.

But if it wasn't going on for 2 years, then TIM must have other reason besides Shep saving the colonies.

I know Reapers, but they were back in dark space and their scout, Sovvy, was demolished. So, it seems to me a pretty abstract goal, and risky to put all that time and money into resurrecting Shep.

Something seems off.

[knightnblu]

iacus said: "Actually, the first sentence in the letter is "I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon" That's pretty much asking forgiveness.

Plus the fact that only a LI gets the letter, strongly implies that the message is from the heart. A nonromanced Shepard gets nothing.

Believe me I would have preferred a face-to-face version of this letter, or at least a recording. But I think it's supposed to be a legitimate apology. Cold comfort, but there it is."
 
If Ashley had only accused Shepard of bad breath, I would say that you are right. Minor offense, minor apology. But Ashley did not say that on Horizon, she said that Shepard was a traitor, was too stupid to realize that he was being manipulated, and that he had even ruined their romance. That's something a lot different from, "Wow, I've seen better haircuts on a mannequin."
 
Something that big requires a lot more of an apology because the scope of her emailed missive is waaaaaaaay too narrow. She acts like all she did on Horizon was to make a minor transgression like breaking wind on an elevator. There is no way in hell that I would have accepted that apology in real life to excuse her crap on Horizon. You don't do what she did and expect to be welcomed back with open arms because you are cute. You have to offer a sincere apology and show some contrition for your actions, but Ashley just goes "my bad, tee hee" and hopes that covers it. It doesn't.
 
It may have supposed to have been a legitimate apology, but it misses the mark by a wide margin just as the Horizon scene was only supposed to create a lover's spat, but ended up creating a chasm. The way I see it, if Ash is steamed that I have a new girlfriend then she can stay mad until she gets glad. She's the one that poisoned the well, not me.
 
"Huh, and here I suspect that TIM finally got tired of the rift between Miranda and her father, figured Miranda's outlived her usefulness, and puts her in charge of the Lazarus Project hoping she gets killed on the Suicide Mission. Voila! Cerberus regains an important financial backer! ::goes to apply more tin foil to hat::"
 
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you ;-)
 
 
rapscallioness said: " I'm curious tho about some time frames:

How long exactly had the Collectors been....collecting? I know TIM said, "While you were sleeping...". So, that implies, what 2 years? Maybe one year? Where was the Alliance? Even one year seems like quite awhile for them to not be doing anything. I know the colonies were in and/or skirting the Terminus, and alot of colonist, from what I gather don't like Alliance. But your ppl are getting snatched left and right.

Negotiate w/ Batarians. Let them know that you're just there because of the attacks. It just seems like they weren't doing anything.

And of course, I woulda initially suspected the Batarians of attacking the encroaching human colonies, myself. Not Cerberus. (Did Alliance & VS get that "tip" from TIM, too?)

Then there's the whole..what did Cerberus really bring Shep back for? Cuz if the Collectors were attacking b4 Shep died, then that's 2 years. That's a long time for no one to be doing Anything. Even Cerberus.

But if it wasn't going on for 2 years, then TIM must have other reason besides Shep saving the colonies.

I know Reapers, but they were back in dark space and their scout, Sovvy, was demolished. So, it seems to me a pretty abstract goal, and risky to put all that time and money into resurrecting Shep.

Something seems off."
 
 
I think that the Collectors have been hitting small human colonies in the Terminus systems for 1 to 1.5 years or so. The Alliance has no jurisdiction in the Terminus because as a Council race, any deployment of the Alliance fleet in the Terminus could be construed as an act of war resulting in a wide scale galactic conflict. This is why only STG teams and Spectres end up there on Council business.
 
Per TIM, hundreds of thousands have been taken and the Council and Alliance have their hands tied. Also, the colonies are not located in Hegemony space so the Batarians would have nothing to do with these colonies either and wouldn't likely help if they were in a position to do so anyway.
 
The Alliance does institute an outreach program providing ground defenses against ship attacks on the off chance that Bararian raiders are responsible for the abductions. However, the program would rely on the goodwill of the colonists and that is something that is not found in abundance in the Terminus systems. In fact, I think that it is more desperation and fear that allows the Alliance to provide assistance to these colonies rather than any goodwill.
 
Shep was brought back for two reasons. First, to stop the attacks on human colonies in the Terminus. Whoever is taking colonists is a human enemy and that is why Cerberus has entered the fight. Second, Shepard was brought back to fight the Reapers who's arrival was delayed, but not stopped. The Reaper attack was never a question of 'if,' but of 'when.' As Shepard was the only person to have actually killed a Reaper, TIM figured that that would gain Shepard a measure of respect from that enemy and make them more cautious in their assault on the galaxy.
 
Hope that this clarifies the situation for you! If not, just ask.

[redbaron76]

@Knightnblu

You are not lookin for an appoloy, you do not need it you cheated so your are trying to blame it on Ashley. It is not ashleys fault you played the field.

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...
 
@Knightnblu
 
You are not lookin for an appoloy, you do not need it you cheated so your are trying to blame it on Ashley. It is not ashleys fault you played the field.

 
I beg to differ. Before Ashley's meltdown and betrayal of trust on Horizon, I was very much looking forward to being reunited with her. In fact, that was one of the reasons that I was amped to get ME2 so that I could continue the relationship. Needless to say, I had the rug pulled out from under my feet. As I have stated before, she no longer trusts me and how can anyone build a relationship without trust? It would be like trying to build a home with a foundation of sand.
 
I waited for DLC that never came, I waited for some sort of explanation that also never came, and in the end I decided to move on. Worse, Ashley was content to leave me branded a traitor until it was revealed that I was, shock of shocks, telling the truth. I don't believe that it was too much to ask that Ashley give me the benefit of the doubt before she hung me out to dry in 2 minutes and 55 seconds of conversation.

[Aradace]

I have a couple data files set aside where I stayed loyal to Ashley. I also have data files set aside where I wasnt. But I prefer my files where I am