1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

[quote]knightnblu wrote...
 
If Ashley had only accused Shepard of bad breath, I would say that you are right. Minor offense, minor apology. But Ashley did not say that on Horizon, she said that Shepard was a traitor, was too stupid to realize that he was being manipulated, and that he had even ruined their romance. That's something a lot different from, "Wow, I've seen better haircuts on a mannequin."
 
Something that big requires a lot more of an apology because the scope of her emailed missive is waaaaaaaay too narrow. She acts like all she did on Horizon was to make a minor transgression like breaking wind on an elevator. There is no way in hell that I would have accepted that apology in real life to excuse her crap on Horizon. You don't do what she did and expect to be welcomed back with open arms because you are cute. You have to offer a sincere apology and show some contrition for your actions, but Ashley just goes "my bad, tee hee" and hopes that covers it. It doesn't.
 
It may have supposed to have been a legitimate apology, but it misses the mark by a wide margin just as the Horizon scene was only supposed to create a lover's spat, but ended up creating a chasm. The way I see it, if Ash is steamed that I have a new girlfriend then she can stay mad until she gets glad. She's the one that poisoned the well, not me.[/quote]
 
That's why I'm saying that the scene was a gross miscalculation on Bioware's part, not necessarilly an aspect of Ash's personality.  I can see her thinking Cerberus is somehow manipulating or controling Shepard.  But accusing him of being a traitor?  No way.  It's simply too inconsistent based on her character to let it ruin her for me.  I dunno, maybe they assumed everyone was hot for Tali and wouldn't care about Ash.

Here's a question.  If we got to see Ash again, say on the Citadel, and she delivered the message she wrote in person, would it have helped?  No grovelling or anything, but an opportunity to hear regret in her voice as she says "I'm sorry" and to hear her voice as she talks about how hse mourned for Shepard an entire year before being able to move on.  Personally quoting a verse for you.  Would that have been better?  I think it would have helped tremendously.

On that note, if the letter was a legitimate apology, as all indications show then Ash did not poison the well, the Bioware writers did.  Ash shot he rmouth off, realized later Shep was telling the truth, reported as such to Anderson, and wrote an apology letter.  The stuff she says was unduly harsh, more so than I think Bioware intended.  The apology was overly tepid, again more so than they intended.  It's bad writing, and I hope they redouble their efforts to make an Ash romance extra special in ME3 as a result.  Because Ash fans deserve it.  

 [/quote]
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you ;-)[/quote]

Oh my Miranda theory is sincere.  I think every single person on the Normandy was someone TIM wanted dead for one reason or another.  Shepard included. 
 
 

[knightnblu]

[quote]iakus wrote...
 
[quote]knightnblu wrote...

If Ashley had only accused Shepard of bad breath, I would say that you are right. Minor offense, minor apology. But Ashley did not say that on Horizon, she said that Shepard was a traitor, was too stupid to realize that he was being manipulated, and that he had even ruined their romance. That's something a lot different from, "Wow, I've seen better haircuts on a mannequin."
 
Something that big requires a lot more of an apology because the scope of her emailed missive is waaaaaaaay too narrow. She acts like all she did on Horizon was to make a minor transgression like breaking wind on an elevator. There is no way in hell that I would have accepted that apology in real life to excuse her crap on Horizon. You don't do what she did and expect to be welcomed back with open arms because you are cute. You have to offer a sincere apology and show some contrition for your actions, but Ashley just goes "my bad, tee hee" and hopes that covers it. It doesn't.
 
It may have supposed to have been a legitimate apology, but it misses the mark by a wide margin just as the Horizon scene was only supposed to create a lover's spat, but ended up creating a chasm. The way I see it, if Ash is steamed that I have a new girlfriend then she can stay mad until she gets glad. She's the one that poisoned the well, not me.[/quote]
 
That's why I'm saying that the scene was a gross miscalculation on Bioware's part, not necessarilly an aspect of Ash's personality. I can see her thinking Cerberus is somehow manipulating or controling Shepard. But accusing him of being a traitor? No way. It's simply too inconsistent based on her character to let it ruin her for me. I dunno, maybe they assumed everyone was hot for Tali and wouldn't care about Ash.
 
Here's a question. If we got to see Ash again, say on the Citadel, and she delivered the message she wrote in person, would it have helped? No grovelling or anything, but an opportunity to hear regret in her voice as she says "I'm sorry" and to hear her voice as she talks about how hse mourned for Shepard an entire year before being able to move on. Personally quoting a verse for you. Would that have been better? I think it would have helped tremendously.
 
On that note, if the letter was a legitimate apology, as all indications show then Ash did not poison the well, the Bioware writers did. Ash shot he rmouth off, realized later Shep was telling the truth, reported as such to Anderson, and wrote an apology letter. The stuff she says was unduly harsh, more so than I think Bioware intended. The apology was overly tepid, again more so than they intended. It's bad writing, and I hope they redouble their efforts to make an Ash romance extra special in ME3 as a result. Because Ash fans deserve it. 
 
 [/quote]
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you ;-)[/quote]
 
Oh my Miranda theory is sincere. I think every single person on the Normandy was someone TIM wanted dead for one reason or another. Shepard included.
 
 
[/quote]
 
I don't really have any idea what BioWare has planned for ME3, but it is a certainty that they fouled up the Ash romance on Horizon, in my opinion. Will they fix it? I hope so, because I also believe that they owe it to the fans to repair what they tore down.
 
As far as an apology like you describe, I think that could have gone a long way towards mollifying the players who were offended by Williams actions on Horizon. That at least would have counterbalanced the vocal inflections, facial expressions, and physical movements that burned her behavior into the player's memory. An email cannot carry the same connotations as an in person apology can and is therefore a limited form of communication. What I find shocking is BioWare's lack of perspective on this issue, if indeed it was an error.
 
Without knowing what BioWare has planned for ME3, we really cannot call Williams actions an "error" or bad writing because the story is incomplete. It may very well be that BioWare intends to end Williams relationship with Shepard for some reason that is central to the story. While I most certainly sympathize with your position on this, I am nevertheless reticent to adopt it for that reason.
 
Regarding TIM's wanting everyone on the Normandy dead, I'm not so sure. If TIM really wanted Shepard dead all he had to do was keep his 4 billion in his pocket and let the SB have him. As far as Miranda is concerned, why would he want to kill her prior to her resignation? She is his number one fan according to Jack. Additionally, Cerberus has paid more than 100 billion credits for the Normandy SR2 and it would likely be destroyed if the crew were lost to the Collectors. That is way too much to lose just to cap everybody.
 
Besides, if TIM really did want everyone dead, all he would have had to do was to program EDI to crank up the artificial gravity on his command and crush everybody on board and have her bring the vessel back to him. He didn't.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
As far as an apology like you describe, I think that could have gone a long way towards mollifying the players who were offended by Williams actions on Horizon. That at least would have counterbalanced the vocal inflections, facial expressions, and physical movements that burned her behavior into the player's memory. An email cannot carry the same connotations as an in person apology can and is therefore a limited form of communication. What I find shocking is BioWare's lack of perspective on this issue, if indeed it was an error.

Precisely.  That's why so often on tv and film when someone leaves a letter for someone, there's a voiceover as well as the words on teh screen.  Bioware screwed up big time with just a letter.
 

Without knowing what BioWare has planned for ME3, we really cannot call Williams actions an "error" or bad writing because the story is incomplete. It may very well be that BioWare intends to end Williams relationship with Shepard for some reason that is central to the story. While I most certainly sympathize with your position on this, I am nevertheless reticent to adopt it for that reason.

Of course I cannot say for certainty.  Particularly since she has changed writers.  But we do have the entirely of ME1 to draw from.  With that, I can say with reasonable certainty that she was acting oddly.  Perhaps due to bad writing.  Perhaps due to plot elements not yet revealed.  Perhaps due to malicious tinkering.  But if I cannot choose to be optimistic on this, I might as well not buy ME3, because then no story elements are safe.  And I don't do pure shooters.
 

Regarding TIM's wanting everyone on the Normandy dead, I'm not so sure. If TIM really wanted Shepard dead all he had to do was keep his 4 billion in his pocket and let the SB have him. As far as Miranda is concerned, why would he want to kill her prior to her resignation? She is his number one fan according to Jack. Additionally, Cerberus has paid more than 100 billion credits for the Normandy SR2 and it would likely be destroyed if the crew were lost to the Collectors. That is way too much to lose just to cap everybody.
 
Besides, if TIM really did want everyone dead, all he would have had to do was to program EDI to crank up the artificial gravity on his command and crush everybody on board and have her bring the vessel back to him. He didn't.

Sure TIM wanted them dead.  But he also wanted the Collectors dealt with and thier tech to play with.  So he uses one problem to solve the other.  The details of my conspiracy theory are probably better fro another thread.   But everyone on your squad is a potential threat to Cerberus' long term plans.  The more who die the better.  And the ship is crewed with Cerberus members who aren't "true believers" in human advancement at any cost.  But I can't help but notice that TIM gives you just enough resources to succeed and get most of your crew killed.

TIM's willing to sacrifice an entire colony as well as risk the life/relationship of one of Shepard's tightest allies on a hunch.  I'm sure he'd sink a ton of money and resources to try and kill two birds with one stone.

Modifié par iakus, 16 août 2011 - 10:16 .

[Made Nightwing]

knightnblu wrote...

Made Nightwing said "At the end of the day, my argument remains the same. From an in game perspective, Ash was kept in the dark by everyone, misinformed about the man/woman she trusted/loved, and used as bait in a gambit that she had absolutely no chance of winning, despite her will to fight and win. She is a passionate person, put into a situation completely out of her control (the one place she hates being), and confronted with an ethical dilemma that would take most of us weeks to resolve."
 
And yet Ashley resolves it in two minutes and fifty-five seconds. As soon as she learns that you are with Cerberus, she cuts you off like a gangrenous limb. I wholeheartedly agree with you that she was lied to, manipulated, used like a tissue, etc., but in the end she broke faith with the man that she knew for the accusations that were made by strangers. Which is the reason for my signature.
 

True, she did manage to resolve it, and she did so in a manner that preserved her integrity. Ash is not in the same situation as Garrus and Tali. They have no commitments to follow through on when they join up with Shepard.

I think the argument: Oh, so she values her loyalty to the Alliance above her loyalty to me? That's BS! doesn't have much weight. Shepard is asking her to take a leap of faith. She took one once before, when they mutinied to steal the Normandy. But back then was different. Back then, they went totally rogue to prevent galactic extinction. Ash had all the facts. This time, Shepard is working with Cerberus, an organisation that Ashley actively opposes, sometimes violently. They are not an abstract thing for her, they are something she fight against.

For Shepard to ask her to turn traitor, when Shepard is not even sure of his own stance, is slightly ridiculous. For Shepard to work with Cerberus to achieve a goal is consistent with the darker side of being a Spectre or Former Spectre. For Ash, it would be treason, and she would not receive the same leniency as Shepard, as she is a serving Alliance soldier.

TL;DR: Shepard is a Spectre and has the ability to work with Cerberus without too much fuss. If Ash did so immediately after Horizon, she would be charged with treason and desertion, tried and executed. just a thought.

[jeweledleah]

something to note, something that people keep forgetting. Ashley and Shepard didn't mutiny in ME1. Anderson, their commanding officer did. you can even ask him when he tells you to steal the Normandy and he says that he will deal with it.

unlike ME2 and the Cerberus deal, in ME1 - they take the normandy at bequest and with help of their superior officer. they are STILL following orders

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

something to note, something that people keep forgetting. Ashley and Shepard didn't mutiny in ME1. Anderson, their commanding officer did. you can even ask him when he tells you to steal the Normandy and he says that he will deal with it.

unlike ME2 and the Cerberus deal, in ME1 - they take the normandy at bequest and with help of their superior officer. they are STILL following orders

Illegal orders, though.  In such a case they would "have to decline, and relieve him of his command" to quote Ash.

[jeweledleah]

not necessarily. Normandy was locked down by a civilian. chances are - given enough time to cut through red tape, it would have been unlocked again. Anderson and Shepard knew that there wasn't enough time. it was a formality. just like the trial is going to basically be a formality. (it better be >_> )

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing wrote...
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
Made Nightwing said "At the end of the day, my argument remains the same. From an in game perspective, Ash was kept in the dark by everyone, misinformed about the man/woman she trusted/loved, and used as bait in a gambit that she had absolutely no chance of winning, despite her will to fight and win. She is a passionate person, put into a situation completely out of her control (the one place she hates being), and confronted with an ethical dilemma that would take most of us weeks to resolve."
 
And yet Ashley resolves it in two minutes and fifty-five seconds. As soon as she learns that you are with Cerberus, she cuts you off like a gangrenous limb. I wholeheartedly agree with you that she was lied to, manipulated, used like a tissue, etc., but in the end she broke faith with the man that she knew for the accusations that were made by strangers. Which is the reason for my signature.
 

 
True, she did manage to resolve it, and she did so in a manner that preserved her integrity. Ash is not in the same situation as Garrus and Tali. They have no commitments to follow through on when they join up with Shepard.
 
I think the argument: Oh, so she values her loyalty to the Alliance above her loyalty to me? That's BS! doesn't have much weight. Shepard is asking her to take a leap of faith. She took one once before, when they mutinied to steal the Normandy. But back then was different. Back then, they went totally rogue to prevent galactic extinction. Ash had all the facts. This time, Shepard is working with Cerberus, an organisation that Ashley actively opposes, sometimes violently. They are not an abstract thing for her, they are something she fight against.
 
For Shepard to ask her to turn traitor, when Shepard is not even sure of his own stance, is slightly ridiculous. For Shepard to work with Cerberus to achieve a goal is consistent with the darker side of being a Spectre or Former Spectre. For Ash, it would be treason, and she would not receive the same leniency as Shepard, as she is a serving Alliance soldier.
 
TL;DR: Shepard is a Spectre and has the ability to work with Cerberus without too much fuss. If Ash did so immediately after Horizon, she would be charged with treason and desertion, tried and executed. just a thought.

 
Did Ashley's actions on Horizon preserve her integrity? It depends. It preserved it with the Alliance. It preserved it with the Council. Regarding Shepard however, not so much. I would never have expected her to abandon her duties, even to accompany Shepard. But I also would have never expected her to believe a total stranger over Shepard either. When Shepard tells her that he doesn't answer to Cerberus, Williams doesn't believe him. She thinks that he is lying. But what evidence does she base that assessment on? Has Shepard actually done anything to cause her to abandon the trust between them? Has Shepard lied to her about anything? Has she caught Shepard in the sack with somebody else? As far as I know, she hasn't. So what made her discard Shepard's word for a rumor?
 
She could just as easily have said, "I don't know Shepard, it's a lot to sort out. I'll report back to the Citadel and tell them what you have told me. Take care of yourself, I can't lose you a second time." That dialog would have accomplished several things. First, it would not have pissed off the players who see her actions on Horizon as a betrayal. Secondly, she doesn't accuse Shepard of being a traitor, of being too stupid to realize that he is a tool, or that he has fouled up their relationship by betraying her personally. Additionally, there is the added benefit that such a comment would not necessitate an email apology and any retribution for cheating in ME2 would be richly deserved in ME3. But she doesn't do that. She breaks crappy with Shepard.
 
Regarding working for Cerberus, I didn't like it either. I still don't and I very much wouldn't mind feeding TIM to a wood chipper and turning him into chunky salsa. But that is beside the point. BioWare has used the Paragon/Renegade score to open up dialog options before. There is no reason why it couldn't have been done with the Horizon scene. All you had to do was set a flag or a series of flags and presto! The correct dialog emerges! All courtesy of elfin magic. But that didn't happen either.
 
To my way of thinking, that leaves several possible doors in the story wide open. Maybe the romance with Williams will continue, maybe those who love Ashley's character are in for a big surprise, maybe Ashley will act like nothing ever happened, nobody really knows and it would appear that BioWare wants it that way and that is a sign. Whether it is a good sign or a bad one, only time will tell.

[Made Nightwing]

Although that would have been the preferable outcome, it would have felt a little too much like 'Shepard is truthful and noble, he should be believed'.

Then again, I've always had pretty different reactions to Ash then other people. When Ash made her famous 'About the aliens, Garrus and Wrex, should we be letting them have full access to the ship?' Everyone else was going 'Dat's Racist'. But I was like 'Wow, a crewmember has a legitimate security concern and let's me know about it, just like a real military vessel. Well done Bioware!'

After Horizon, everyone was going 'Why didn't she trust me? B!tch, should have nuked her on Virmire!', I was like 'Wow, my Shepard doesn't get to go around on a Cerberus ship, with Cerberus credits jingling in his pocket, without someone calling him out on it. Maybe I've been too complacent about working with Cerberus?' It pushed my canon Shepard back onto the Paragon path, leading him to blow up the Collector base on his first playthrough (it was AMAZING), it felt like I had made a genuine choice without any metagaming whatsoever.

[knightnblu]

Made Nightwing wrote...
 
Although that would have been the preferable outcome, it would have felt a little too much like 'Shepard is truthful and noble, he should be believed'.
 
Then again, I've always had pretty different reactions to Ash then other people. When Ash made her famous 'About the aliens, Garrus and Wrex, should we be letting them have full access to the ship?' Everyone else was going 'Dat's Racist'. But I was like 'Wow, a crewmember has a legitimate security concern and let's me know about it, just like a real military vessel. Well done Bioware!'
 
After Horizon, everyone was going 'Why didn't she trust me? B!tch, should have nuked her on Virmire!', I was like 'Wow, my Shepard doesn't get to go around on a Cerberus ship, with Cerberus credits jingling in his pocket, without someone calling him out on it. Maybe I've been too complacent about working with Cerberus?' It pushed my canon Shepard back onto the Paragon path, leading him to blow up the Collector base on his first playthrough (it was AMAZING), it felt like I had made a genuine choice without any metagaming whatsoever.

 
Don't get me wrong, I am not and have never criticized BioWare for innovative story telling. Nor have I ever advocated that Ashley kiss Shepard's backside just 'cause. I most certainly agree that the paragon/paragade/renegade choices should come with consequences instead of dialog options because these personality types have a real impact on others.
 
It would have been fine if Ashley looked askance at renegade Shepard because he is known for questionable behavior. Looking askance at paragon Shepard doesn't make sense because questionable behavior is not normally a part of his character. Paragade is a toss up because Shepard is unpredictable based on his moral choices. This is why I view paragon/paragade/renegade as good/neutral/evil.
 
Therefore, it would make perfect sense for Ashley to jump down "evil" Shepard's throat on Horizon. What doesn't make sense is that all of my Shepards are paragons and Ashley trashed me on Horizon. The one person who should have known me best, the one person who had served with me, the one person who claimed to have loved me, let me down and treated me like a b*stard stepchild. Based on the slimmest of evidence. How did she know that I wasn't undercover (if a Spectre), how was she so sure of her source when it is unquestionable that she knew Shepard better unless she were sleeping with that person, how in the hell did she end up with the hair that she sports in ME3? We may never know the answers to these questions, but is certain that regarding paragon Shepard, and to a certain extent paragade Shepard, she failed him.
 
It would not be hard to put a check in the dialog that tests for paragon/renegade scores and sends the talk tree to the appropriate branch when one is greater than the other. In the NWN toolset, I did that all of the time. How much more advanced are BioWare's tools today?
Where an RPG is concerned, you should only be able to truly metagame if it is a replay. If not, then the story needs work. Once a character has been established, it should remain true to type unless something happens that warrants a deviation. My problem comes in where Williams deviates from the character that she established in ME1 without any explanation or perceivable cause.
 
Unless and until I get that cause, I am going to hold her responsible for her actions until it is mitigated. One can hope against hope, or fantasize about her actions meaning something else, but if you look at her response to a paragon Shepard, who is a friend/LI, and in the presence of, and sometimes even testimony of, personnel that should make Williams stop and think, then you cannot help, but to arrive at my conclusions.

p.s. "it would have felt a little too much like 'Shepard is truthful and noble, he should be believed'." Why would that be so bad if Sheapard had earned that level of trust?

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote...That is the root of her fears about Shepard. By Shepard working for Cerberus she fears that she will be linked by association with him and that the stain will be renewed on her and her family's honor all over again. If you and your dad worked your guts out to achieve the cleansing of your family name, would you so
lightly throw it away? Would that not be a betrayal of your father and grandfather? To whom does she owe more loyalty, Shepard or her blood?
 
I think that she picked blood.

@knightnblu: Wow... That is a very interesting interpretation Bill.It seems to have weight.If this does turn out to be the case.It would make Ashley come across as more of a real live person, than she already did in Mass Effect 1.If she confesses this to Shepard in ME 3.That this is why she behaved the way she did toward him on Horizon.Seeing her be so honest and vulnerable as this -- Would go a looooooooooooooooooong way towards making My Shepard forgive her.Befriend her and love her once more.

iakus wrote...I think Ash places personal honor over the appearance of honor any day of
the week.  SHe hates politics, and if some sort of stain reared its ugly head, she'd meet it head on, Because it's the right thing to do, even if it's not the smartest thing. She doesnt' compromise herself.

Ashley: "It's not that bad things don't happen to me...But I deal with them myself. I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a a man to make me happy.  this is who I am.  I like her."

@iakus: Eh?! Is that so?

-I seem to recall Ash needing two knights in shinning armor  to rescue her ass on Eden Prime.Shepard and Alenko.

- I seem to recall a "MAN" making her very happy.Buy offering her a job on the MOST ADVANCED STAR-SHIP in the entire Alliance Navy. Captain David Anderson...

Jacob Taylor left the Systems Alliance after the geth attack on Eden Prime.More than likely; Ashley Williams would have been dishonorably discharged after what happened on Eden Prime.As soon as the Alliance Brass caught wind of her last name.Along with the fact that she just happened to miraculously manage to be "The Lone Survivor" of her unit.

Commander Shepard and Lieutenant Alenko saved her life.Captain Anderson saved her career.

Just b/c a character says something about themselves -- doesn't mean that what they say is true.There much like real people in that way.Not everyone is all that self-aware and sometimes people lie to themselves.As charming as Ash was in the scene where she says this.It was Bullsh!t...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 17 août 2011 - 06:04 .

[knightnblu]

@ubermensch007 - Thanks for the kind words. I like that explanation for Ashley's reaction to Shepard precisely because it makes her human and not just a cardboard cut out of a model soldier. If BioWare wants to take that and run with it, great for them. If she gave this explanation in person with the attendant facial expressions and vocal inflections, she would have my complete forgiveness without question.

I will even say this for the record: If BioWare wants to take any of my ideas for repairing the relationship between Shepard and Williams that I have expressed on these forums and use them in ME3, by all means please do. I hereby release any and all rights, privileges, and prerogatives to them both now and in the future. I want no compensation, consideration, or recognition. This is a public forum and I have declared such in public. I just want Horizon fixed.

[Iakus]

ubermensch007 wrote...

iakus wrote...I think Ash places personal honor over the appearance of honor any day of
the week.  SHe hates politics, and if some sort of stain reared its ugly head, she'd meet it head on, Because it's the right thing to do, even if it's not the smartest thing. She doesnt' compromise herself.

Ashley: "It's not that bad things don't happen to me...But I deal with them myself. I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a a man to make me happy.  this is who I am.  I like her."

@iakus: Eh?! Is that so?

-I seem to recall Ash needing two knights in shinning armor  to rescue her ass on Eden Prime.Shepard and Alenko.

- I seem to recall a "MAN" making her very happy.Buy offering her a job on the MOST ADVANCED STAR-SHIP in the entire Alliance Navy. Captain David Anderson...

Jacob Taylor left the Systems Alliance after the geth attack on Eden Prime.More than likely; Ashley Williams would have been dishonorably discharged after what happened on Eden Prime.As soon as the Alliance Brass caught wind of her last name.Along with the fact that she just happened to miraculously manage to be "The Lone Survivor" of her unit.

Commander Shepard and Lieutenant Alenko saved her life.Captain Anderson saved her career.

Just b/c a character says something about themselves -- doesn't mean that what they say is true.There much like real people in that way.Not everyone is all that self-aware and sometimes people lie to themselves.As charming as Ash was in the scene where she says this.It was Bullsh!t...

The point of her statement is that she's independant.  Heck it's the basis of her suspicion of aliens.  She doesn't rely on the goodwill of others to get ahead.  If she has a problem, she deals with it.  Sure help is welcome, but if there's no "knight in shining armor" available, she makes do with her own thick armor and big gun.  A man can make her happy.  But it's not a prerequisite for happiness.

Thus why I don't think the shadow of Shepard's Cerberus association would keep her down.  SHe may not like it is there's spillover from her own association with Shepard.  But if it does come.  She'll deal with it.  Just like she's dealt with everything else in her life.

[knightnblu]

Some thoughts, first, Ashley is not an automaton. Yes, she cares about honor, military discipline, and carrying out her responsibilities in an effective and efficient manner. But her family comes first. This is evidenced by her taking of leave when her little sister had an altercation with the boy that she was dating. She walked her to and from school every day until the issue was settled.

If she would do that for a lover's spat between her sister and her beau, what would she do if her family were threatened with being restored to their former curse of dishonor? Especially if the man she loved made a conscious decision to work with known terrorists and were the cause of that threat? I think that she would drop Shepard like a hot potato.

At least that is a plausible explanation for her anger on Horizon and steadfast refusal to give Shepard a fair hearing. It also explains why she backed away from him. He had become a threat to her family and herself. Not a physical threat mind you, but a threat that promised to restore the curse of dishonor to her family.

After all that she, her dad, and her grandfather suffered, it only makes sense that she would run like her hair was on fire. Further, it also makes her a human being and I think that that fear is the only one that would touch her heart and make her blood run cold.

Lastly, why is it that a lot of folks don't seem to care about Shepard in this argument? We all play him/her and I would think that by having a personal stake in this, Ashley's actions would have had a greater impact. Just curious.

[Made Nightwing]

@ubermensch007. Bull**** you say? I call bull**** on you. Jacob left the Alliance because he was sick of not getting anything done. I hardly think Ash would have been discharged, not when the camera footage the Normandy was sent shows her fighting just as hard as every other marine in her unit.

Her line simply means that she is independent, and that she's proud of being like that. No, not everyone's self aware in real life, but every other part of Ash is genuine, so why shouldn't that be too?

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

Some thoughts, first, Ashley is not an automaton. Yes, she cares about honor, military discipline, and carrying out her responsibilities in an effective and efficient manner. But her family comes first. This is evidenced by her taking of leave when her little sister had an altercation with the boy that she was dating. She walked her to and from school every day until the issue was settled.

If she would do that for a lover's spat between her sister and her beau, what would she do if her family were threatened with being restored to their former curse of dishonor? Especially if the man she loved made a conscious decision to work with known terrorists and were the cause of that threat? I think that she would drop Shepard like a hot potato.

If Shepard really did go Dark Side, I might agree, though the decision would tear her up inside.

But the report She gave to Anderson, and the letter, indicates that she does not do so.  Whatever her reasons fro saying what she did to Shepard on Horizon, in teh end she believed him.  And I do not think she would knowingly hang someone out to dry for doing what needed to be done.  It would be worse than becoming another General Williams.  It would be like becoming one of General Williams' superiors who left him hanging out to dry.

Lastly, why is it that a lot of folks don't seem to care about Shepard in this argument? We all play him/her and I would think that by having a personal stake in this, Ashley's actions would have had a greater impact. Just curious.

Oh I care.  I just argue that on another thread 

[redbaron76]

@ Knightnblu

I car about my shepard to. But Unlike you I do not see horizon as a disaster you tryit to make it to be. I do not need explanation for ashley's behaviour, because her email told me all I needed to know. And also both Ashley and My shepard have some things to work out after horizon. Both shepard and ashley are responsible for horizon.

[knightnblu]

iakus said: "But the report She gave to Anderson, and the letter, indicates that she does not do so. Whatever her reasons fro saying what she did to Shepard on Horizon, in teh end she believed him. And I do not think she would knowingly hang someone out to dry for doing what needed to be done. It would be worse than becoming another General Williams. It would be like becoming one of General Williams' superiors who left him hanging out to dry."
 
Exactly my friend, but she does so in the future. On Horizon (in this theory), she is living with the fear of being re-branded with the curse. That fear shuts down her ability to reason and we get what we saw groundside. If true, she didn't hang Shepard out to dry because she rejected him, but because she rejected being re-branded a loser. Your point about becoming one of General Williams' superiors is spot on and what I have been saying since the beginning of this thread.
 
Her gut reaction, her fear, and the panic engendered by it caused her to reprise her grandfather's role with Shepard as the lead. She acts like the Alliance acted with her grandfather and comes full circle with Shepard being the one pilloried. When she calms down, she has time to evaluate the situation in order to file a report and she realizes what she has done. This generates the tepid apology that she sends by email because she still cannot admit to the fullness of her transgression, at least in this scenario. She submits her report to Anderson and we arrive at where we are today.
 
This theory makes Williams human, it splits up the couple, it pisses Shepard off, Williams realizes her foul up and timidly tries to correct it, and she files a report in support of Shepard all with the umbrella of irony sheltering it. What's not to like? ME3 rolls around and Williams is allowed to complete her mea maxima culpa and presto! It's all fixed and it all makes sense again.
 
If BioWare intends to deep six the relationship, then all bets are off.

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...

@ Knightnblu

I car about my shepard to. But Unlike you I do not see horizon as a disaster you tryit to make it to be. I do not need explanation for ashley's behaviour, because her email told me all I needed to know. And also both Ashley and My shepard have some things to work out after horizon. Both shepard and ashley are responsible for horizon.

Forgive me for pointing this out, but if her email apology "...told me all I needed to know," so that you no longer question her actions and motivation, then what possible issues from Horizon would you need to work out?

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

iakus said: "But the report She gave to Anderson, and the letter, indicates that she does not do so. Whatever her reasons fro saying what she did to Shepard on Horizon, in teh end she believed him. And I do not think she would knowingly hang someone out to dry for doing what needed to be done. It would be worse than becoming another General Williams. It would be like becoming one of General Williams' superiors who left him hanging out to dry."
 
Exactly my friend, but she does so in the future. On Horizon (in this theory), she is living with the fear of being re-branded with the curse. That fear shuts down her ability to reason and we get what we saw groundside. If true, she didn't hang Shepard out to dry because she rejected him, but because she rejected being re-branded a loser. Your point about becoming one of General Williams' superiors is spot on and what I have been saying since the beginning of this thread.
 
Her gut reaction, her fear, and the panic engendered by it caused her to reprise her grandfather's role with Shepard as the lead. She acts like the Alliance acted with her grandfather and comes full circle with Shepard being the one pilloried. When she calms down, she has time to evaluate the situation in order to file a report and she realizes what she has done. This generates the tepid apology that she sends by email because she still cannot admit to the fullness of her transgression, at least in this scenario. She submits her report to Anderson and we arrive at where we are today.
 
This theory makes Williams human, it splits up the couple, it pisses Shepard off, Williams realizes her foul up and timidly tries to correct it, and she files a report in support of Shepard all with the umbrella of irony sheltering it. What's not to like? ME3 rolls around and Williams is allowed to complete her mea maxima culpa and presto! It's all fixed and it all makes sense again.
 
If BioWare intends to deep six the relationship, then all bets are off.

I guess that's possible, but it seems to be overanalyzing the situation.  Wouldn't a simpler explanation simply be that Ash assumed Shepard had gone traitor (regardless of past actions) and later realized she made a rash assumption?  Bioware simply laid the "betrayal" stuff on too thick and the apology too thin.

 It's a great example of Hanlon's Law:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

[redbaron76]

@ Knightnblue

Simple shepard was gone for two years, he and ashley have lot of catching up to do. He has to tell her about lazarus, why he did not get in touch with her, how he was brought back to life. The biggest issue I have is that shepard did not attempt to contact ashley at all. I am thinking that Bioware did horizon o purpose. I think what they planned for shepard and ashley will be spectacular in a good way. I hope that they will make up for the lack of ashley DLC in ME 2.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Do you think that the writers are going to handle Ashley and Kaidan differently concerning what happened on Horizon? I wonder what such an optimistic expectation is based on. If Horizon is going to be brought up at all, both Ashley's and Kaidan's dialogues are going to be nearly identical. They were the same in ME2, why wouldn't they be the same in ME3?

If VS' behaviour on Horizon is so heavily defined by their background, isn't it a little strange that such two different people behave in exactly the same way? I think something else is at work here. I don't think VS' background matters at all. And I don't think that VS' behaviour on Horizon has that complex of an explanation.

No. It's something very, very simple. And effective. It's something that works the same on every advanced organic life form, and produces the same results, no matter the person or background or goals. Just give it enough time. Their reasons and inner excuses might be different, but in the end, their behavior will be the same - exactly like their masters command.

Kaidan and Ash became the NPC equivalent of Sheploo/Femshep unfortunately. It was jarring seeing Kaidan who was very reserved in the first game get that angry and confrontational with Shepard.

[knightnblu]

Expansive story telling is not the exclusive domain of film and texts. The video game is only limited by the imagination of its creators. Back in the early days of gaming you had Pong. While it's novelty was what made it a success, text based games focused on entertaining the player via the story. Then came games like King's Quest and Star Flight, etc. that began combining a rudimentary story with better graphical elements.
 
Today we have sweeping cinematics and cutscences, epic stories, romance, and even humor and banter between the NPCs. The video game has grown to be a reflection of real life and its associated problems, such as the doubting Thomas Turian Councilor and a problematic LI with Williams after Horizon, while at the same time removing the player from his day to day.
 
I point all of this out to illustrate this: we are traversing new ground. The Mass Effect series has an expansive and epic story, it has great story concepts, and a very immersive gaming environment. All that it lacks, in my humble opinion, is proper character development. Most game designers hope that by hitting the high points it will be enough so that the main job of getting the player from point a to point b is accomplished thus advancing the story. That is no longer enough.
 
Most major game releases use voice acting, cinematic story telling, and character interaction to draw the gamer into the game environment. Where BioWare and other game companies typically fail is the development of its NPCs. By playing Mass Effect you are entering into a movie as the lead character and your decisions will reveal different parts of the story and perhaps even different characters.
 
While the gamer's personality fills the lead, the supporting cast is left very weak by comparison. I submit that more time and effort needs to be put into these characters in order to complete the immersion process. By bringing the player's choices forward into the next game of the series, BioWare is committing to the continued development of the core NPCs and LIs by default. But this didn't happen. Gamers expect and anticipate that they will continue to strengthen and develop friendships, romance, etc. with the NPCs that they have already connected with. This is especially true for characters who are available for romance. Typically gamers argue for same sex and variety, but I believe that these arguments miss the most important element of different personalities.
 
As an example, having Ashley Williams portrayed as male, female, hetero, bi, lesbian is not the answer. What is needed is the differentiation of personalities required to separate and define these permutations. Humans tend to focus on looks first and once that check has passed, then we begin to focus on personality. If the looks are great, but the personality blows like the North wind we generally pass on establishing a romance. In the context of romance, anything less than substantial character development is nothing more than a polygon designed for self gratification. While we see a true difference of personality between Leliana and Morrigan in DA:O, that difference leads to sparks flying between these two romance options as they become catty with each other. That was an unexpected and brilliant surprise.
 
The romance we began in ME with Williams began great, got muddled in ME2 and now we don't have any idea what's headed down the pike in ME3. Many, including myself, believe that her actions were out of character. This is either because the writers have chosen a new direction, didn't fully understand the character, or just plain didn't care enough to even try.
 
Nevertheless, my point remains. It is vitally important to develop the personalities and characters of the NPCs because as the supporting cast, they contribute greatly to the story telling and enable the player to immerse himself fully into the story. This is why players ask for greater dialog with NPCs, more romance options, more and different banter, it is because we want these characters more fully developed in the story. Gamers know this instinctively because of the feel of the world they find themselves in.
 
Like Hollywood, games have brought music and voice actors into the game as elements to draw the player in and to enhance the gaming environment. But without stronger NPCs with their own individual personalities, these techniques can only go so far. The more the player can interact with an NPC the greater the need for a clearly defined personality. As a rule of thumb, if an NPC warrants a VA, then that character needs a fully defined personality to go along with it and expanded dialog to support greater interaction.
 
Does that make the development of games more difficult? Time consuming? Require more effort? Sure it does and more besides, but by enhancing the supporting cast you greatly strengthen the story and increase the pleasure of playing the game. By hiring voice actors to breathe life into NPCs, BioWare is already traveling down that road. All I am asking is to go the rest of the distance and bring us characters that are truly alive and three dimensional.
 
I don't believe for a second that ME3 will be the last of the ME series. It may be the end of Shepard, but it most certainly will continue because it has proven to be a money maker. Spending the time, money, and sweat needed to flesh out these characters will give you a great starting point for any future endeavors while providing a thrill for the gamers with ME3.
 
Williams and her behavior on Horizon was merely the catalyst for exposing a greater desire. You can either take it and run with it or you can just let it fester, but that desire will never go away. If the ME series is a great gaming series, and I believe that it is, how much better would it be if this rough edge were smoothed?