1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Made Nightwing]

@jeweledleah, well put.

[Cancermeat]

Ash was great, but I still think Viconia is still the best Bioware game romance.

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote... @ubermensch007:

Thanks for the kind words my friend. I just hope that BioWare considers what I have said. From past experience with ME, they have proven that they give an ear to their fans, so I have hope :-)

@knightnblu: De nada...

You know there has been many things said about the Virmire Survivor here and in other threads.Some say the reason Ashley made such a scene on Horizon is b/c she was ordered too.Or, she was just so taken aback by
seeing Shepard alive, and with Cerberus. That it made her get belligerent... There are even those who have come up with strong cases for how Ash has already made amends to Shep, by corroborating his story
to her superiors: elecktrego post

But to those who at times feel like you and I do about Ash, saying what she did to Commander Shepard on horizon and getting all LOUD in public.Here's a rewrite of a great song by Rihanna: Take A Bow


Ohhhhhh
How about a round of applause
A standing ovation
Ohhhhh wooow
yea yea yea yea

[Verse 1]
You look so dumb right now (Talking about "What if Cerberus is behind the abductions?")
Standing outside my ship
Trying to apologize (For saying that I, "Betrayed the Alliance.Anderson... and you.)
You're so ugly when you cry

Please , just cut it out

[Vamp]
Don't tell me you're sorry cuz you're not ( elecktrego post )
Baby when I know you're only sorry you weren't right (About all the sh!t you accused me of)

[Chorus]
But you put on quite a show You really had me going
But now it's time to go Curtain's finally closing
That was quite a show Very entertaining
But it's over now Go on Ash take a bow

[Verse 2]

Grab your clothes and get gone (GTFOMS)
You better hurry up before the FTL drive comes on
Talkin' about, boy, I love you, you're the one
This just looks like the re-run
Please <_<, what else is on

[Vamp]
And don't tell me you're sorry cuz you're not
Baby when I know you're only sorry you weren't right


[Chorus]
But you put on quite a show
You really had me going
But now it's time to go
Curtain's finally closing
That was quite a show
Very entertaining
But it's over now
Go on Ash take a bow

[Bridge]
And the award for the best liar goes to you
For making me believe that you could be
Faithful to me (And my Legacy to find a way to defeat the Reapers) :innocent:
Lets hear your speech oh
How bout a round of applause [hmm]
A standing ovation

[Chorus]
But you put on quite a show
You really had me going
But now it's time to go
Curtain's finally closing
That was quite a show (On Horizon)
Very entertaining
But it's over now
Go on Ash take a bow

Modifié par ubermensch007, 10 septembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

would you really believe ressurection before assuming faked death?  the technology isn't even supposed to exist. Ashley is spiritual, but she didn't come across to me as someone who beleives in miracles.  she came across as someone who is far too pragmatic for thatwhy didn't Shepard contact her?  what the hell is Shepard doing buddy buddying with terrorists?  is this why the body was never found?  so they gave me information that Cerberus is kidnaping remote colonies and here is cerberus ship, conveniently showing up.  honestly, when I'm not blaming writers for cutting corners - I blame TIM and Liara for the whole thing.  TIM set up the rumors and Liara kept the truth a secret.  they created an elaborate trail of misinformation, that resulted in Shepard being seen in a very very bad, deceptive light.

you have a right to be angry.  that whole situation on Horizon is not exactly favorable to either of the parties.  but what annoys me personaly is laying full out blame on Ash. Shepard's lines are not exactly stellar either.  Where is Shepard's:  "Ash, I'm so glad I got her in time, before they could take you, I missed you, I wanted to contact you, but I kept being stonewalled by everyone?"  don't you think that that would have been a more apropriate reaction from someone you loved and who loved you coming back to you?

Myself I don't know what I'd think.  If it was Ash that got spaced, only to have her turn up halfway through the game working with Cerberus, or the geth, or some other antagonistic faction.  Resurection is preposterous, of course.  But she's also made it clear throughout the game that she's Alliance military with no love fro fro those who oppose it.  Even Cerberus.  

This is why I don't see ME3 as Ash's atonement, but the writers.  To me they did a very very poor job expressing why Ash is so hostile.  Particularly for Paragon Sheps.  To me, her reaction is only appropriate to those stone-Renegades who chose every antialien option from "It's a big, stupid jellyfish" to "Let the Council die"  So much for choices mattering.

So what's left?  She must know something we don't.  We do hear that TIM spread rumors of Shepard's return and that he's working for Cerberus.  SHepard being on Horizon lends credence to those rumors.  But why would that be enough to confirm in Ash's mind that he's a traitor?  Anyone who's played ME1 knows that Shep and Ash have pulled all sorts of crazy stunts to save the galaxy.  Up to and including stealing the Alliance's most advanced warship out form under C-Sec's nose.

 Shep working with Cerberus can't possibly be another such stunt, could it?  Perish the thought!

This leads me to wonder:  What were those rumors exactly?  That he led his fellow marines into a trap on Akuze?  That Shepard's responsible fro the last couple of spectacular failed experiments the Alliance has had to clean up?  Shepard sustains his unnatural life by bathing in the blood of children?  

Or is there something deeper going on that the writers have not told us, but probably should have?

I'm sticking with Ashley.  She was a great character in ME1, and I'm hoping she remains so in ME3 (new look notwithstanding)  Though I do confess to being extremely nervous about further tampering 

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever  said - "I don't understand why everyone demonizes the VS. IMO, Ashley is the only character in the game who made any sense at all. Why shouldn't she question your alliance with Cerberus? Its hella shady Shepard would lead the most classifed mission in the organization's history with a, "Well, its in the best interest of the galaxy"."
 
I don't demonize Williams. I respect her as a professional solider and as a human being, but her behavior on Horizon was too much. She never explored why I was working with Cerberus. She heard rumors, feared the worst, and when Shep mentioned Cerberus she lost it and called me a traitor to my face and a terrorist to boot. This is despite having witnessed me save Horizon and her from the collectors. So...what does she base that on?
 
If you know a person, linked yourself to them emotionally and sexually, loved them, and mourned horribly for them after they had died, I would think that paying heed to the rumors being circulated about that person would be a bridge too far to cross. Yet Ashley does so with vigor and solid conviction after having just witnessed Shepard saving the colony. I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. As Shepard pleads with Williams, telling her that she knows him and knows that he would never work with Cerberus if there were any other choice, his pleas fall on deaf ears.
 
She is angry, she won't listen, and she has convicted Shepard of treason and terrorism in her mind. Given that, what could Shepard possibly say to overcome that? What is she going to think when she finds out that Shepard is personally responsible for the deaths of more than 304,000 civilians including men, women, and children? She's going to think that Shepard has gone off his rocker and went totally dark side. Judging by what I've seen of the ME3 trailers, I am not going to have time to explain to her what is going on and besides, I may as well be speaking to a brick wall for all of the understanding and comprehension Williams demonstrated on Horizon. Apparently, it just isn't in her character.
 
laecraftsaid - "There was a mention that Ashley / Kaidan have a very good reason for their behavior on Horizon, just like Liara had a good reason for being cold to you in ME2, and it was explained in LotSB. I don't know about "good", because I still haven't the slightest idea why Liara was being cold, other than she was really obsessed with getting her revenge on SB while there were Collectors out there to fight. But I have to wonder what VS excuse is going to be, because I can't think of anything good enough.

Maybe Cerberus slaughtered all of Ashley's numerous sisters? Or used all of Kaidan's friends for experiments? I hope not, because the line of humans who are after Cerberus for personal revenge is really getting tiresomely long. Besides, how is that a good reason for leaving the rest of humanity to rot? Even an Akuze survivor still works with Cerberus because he wants to save humanity, because it makes more sense to fight and risk your life for the living than for the dead - although I hear a lot of selfish complaints from people about it.

Besides, if there's a reason, one would think that VS would mention it, at the very least. Didn't Shepard deserve as much?"
 
Amen brother. Those thoughts have also been circulating in my mind. For some people however, Williams could pull a "Countess Bathory" and people would still think that she walks on water. That's certainly their prerogative, but there is something called the lesser of two evils and if both are ignored the innocent suffer for it. It is not a pleasant choice and it is not a desirable choice, but the alternative of ignoring the disappearing colonies does nothing to safeguard humanity.
 
 
Made Nightwing said - "Shepard who? Oh, you mean the inarticulate douchebag who greets the woman he loved with the words, "It's been too long, how've you been?" I don't know what planet you're from, but where I come from, something a tad more affectionate would probably be in order.

And being traumatized by the person you love dying, and carrying that grief and guilt around for two years is probably a bit worse than the trauma of getting brought back to life. Shepard kinda got the good end on that deal."
 
 
Well, I kind of have to concede that point. Shepard certainly wasn't a silver tongued devil when he met her on Horizon. Something along the line of "Ash...God it's good to see you, I was afraid that I got here too late to save you. I'm glad you made it, so many others didn't." would have been a lot better dialog for Shepard under the circumstances.
 
Regarding Shepard getting the better end of the deal, did you notice how he is always rotating his right shoulder? It is clear that there is still some physical damage that is permanent. Is that equivalent to Williams experience? I think that is a comparison of apples and oranges. Each individual's experiences are unique to them and the sequela arising from them is also unique in that respect. Therefore, I highly doubt that one can compare the experiences of the two people and arrive at a fair conclusion.
 
AdmiralCheez said - "From the perspective of Dick, my vanguard:

Ashley is a strong and independent woman. Good-looking in a down-to-earth way. Respected her first, befriended her second, then finally fell for her.

Miranda is a strong and independent woman. Didn't notice that at first. Saw boobies and dat ass. Not sure if want--Lawson's kind of a b*tch. Eh, hot enough to be worth it. Originally interacted with lustful intent, but came to love and respect her.

Problem: Still love both.

lol threesome?"
 
That would work for me!
 
jeweledleah said - "you have a right to be angry. that whole situation on Horizon is not exactly favorable to either of the parties. but what annoys me personaly is laying full out blame on Ash. Shepard's lines are not exactly stellar either. Where is Shepard's: "Ash, I'm so glad I got her in time, before they could take you, I missed you, I wanted to contact you, but I kept being stonewalled by everyone?" don't you think that that would have been a more apropriate reaction from someone you loved and who loved you coming back to you?"
 
While I concede that you do make a good point regarding the dialog, given Ashley's response to Shepard I can't see that there is anything that he could have said to mollify her anger or change her convictions. She has made up her mind and is not open to changing it.
 
I readily agree that Shepard's dialog was not well done. But I am also in agreement with Omega4RelayResident's  argument regarding her reaction. It didn't make sense to me. He entire behavior was non sequitur. Williams sees Shepard for the first time in two years and she is hot from the get go? Hell, I would have been jumping for joy. In fact, the first time I played ME2, I was jumping for joy seeing her again. But that changed quickly given my chilly reception. She makes up her mind that Shep is a traitor and terrorist and refuses to listen to another word and just jets. She doesn't ask many questions or even attempt to make a half serious effort to find out how the man she claimed to love ended up with Cerberus. She just blows her stack. How else am I supposed to feel?
 
At this point she is a distraction and one that I don't need in ME3. That's why I don't even want her on my ship unless she can explain her malfunction.
 
iakus said - "So what's left? She must know something we don't. We do hear that TIM spread rumors of Shepard's return and that he's working for Cerberus. SHepard being on Horizon lends credence to those rumors. But why would that be enough to confirm in Ash's mind that he's a traitor? Anyone who's played ME1 knows that Shep and Ash have pulled all sorts of crazy stunts to save the galaxy. Up to and including stealing the Alliance's most advanced warship out form under C-Sec's nose.

Shep working with Cerberus can't possibly be another such stunt, could it? Perish the thought!

This leads me to wonder: What were those rumors exactly? That he led his fellow marines into a trap on Akuze? That Shepard's responsible fro the last couple of spectacular failed experiments the Alliance has had to clean up? Shepard sustains his unnatural life by bathing in the blood of children?"
 
I have been arguing that point for a while now and it's the reason that I am going to feed TIM to a wood chipper feet first if I get the chance in ME3. I contend that Shepard was isolated from the Council, the Alliance, his mentor, and every friendly government in Council space. TIM manipulated opinions against Shepard and insured that Williams was led into a trap on Horizon. For that alone, TIM should be deep sixed. It's time for payback.

[Dean_the_Young]

I've been wondering this for awhile, but...

Shouldn't the title be 'Are you still Ashley's man?'

[jeweledleah]

see, no matter which option you pick, Shepard goes - oh Cerberus brougth me back. so what sort of information Ash might have heard? oh I don't know, TIM preading around that Shepard is working with Cerberus? Ash was on Horizon to investigate and possibly prevent colony abduction. Her intel said that abductions were connected to Cerberus, who is known to experiment on aliens and humans alike. and would you look at that - colony gets abducted and Cerberus Vesel is there... with her old lover, Shepard, whom she thought was dead, but from what SHE knows was alive and well, working for Cerberus.

confirming it.

She is perfectly aware of the threat from reapers. she was there. she also knows that Shepard is aware, that Shepard clashed with council about it and was sent to clean up Geth. Shepard stole a ship to o after Saren, Shepard has shown that he's willing to bend the rules to go after what he thinks is right.  and as such - he could possibly be manipulated into doing something for good causes, with good intentions.  the ship that attacked the Normandy looks mighty similar to the one that attacked Horizon.

lets add up the information Ash has so far. Normandy is attacked by unknown ship. Shepard disappears, presumed dead, body never found. colonies start to disappear. rumors start to circulate that Shepard may be alive, working with Cerberus. the tip is that Horizon will be the next colony to be attacked... by Cerberus. Ship shows up, looking mighty similar to the one that attacked the Normandy and colonists are being abducted. and then Shepard does in fact show up, acting uncomfortable and talking about how Cerberus brought him back.

there is a joke. a woman comes home early and finds her boyfriend in bed with 2 naked women, wrapped all over him and he tells her that its not what it looks like. she doesn't buy it so he tells her: "are you going to believe your eyes or what I tell you?"

whatever impossible stunts Shepard pulled? they never once looked that bad. and Shepard doesn't even get to say to Ash, that he doesn't trust Cerberus. BOTH messed up. and in my opinion Shepard looked much worse then Ash. thanks to TIM and his manipulations mostly, but nonetheless.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 10 septembre 2011 - 11:03 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

see, no matter which option you pick, Shepard goes - oh Cerberus brougth me back. so what sort of information Ash might have heard? oh I don't know, TIM preading around that Shepard is working with Cerberus? Ash was on Horizon to investigate and possibly prevent colony abduction. Her intel said that abductions were connected to Cerberus, who is known to experiment on aliens and humans alike. and would you look at that - colony gets abducted and Cerberus Vesel is there... with her old lover, Shepard, whom she thought was dead, but from what SHE knows was alive and well, working for Cerberus.

confirming it.

She is perfectly aware of the threat from reapers. she was there. she also knows that Shepard is aware, that Shepard clashed with council about it and was sent to clean up Geth. Shepard stole a ship to o after Saren, Shepard has shown that he's willing to bend the rules to go after what he thinks is right.  and as such - he could possibly be manipulated into doing something for good causes, with good intentions.  the ship that attacked the Normandy looks mighty similar to the one that attacked Horizon.

lets add up the information Ash has so far. Normandy is attacked by unknown ship. Shepard disappears, presumed dead, body never found. colonies start to disappear. rumors start to circulate that Shepard may be alive, working with Cerberus. the tip is that Horizon will be the next colony to be attacked... by Cerberus. Ship shows up, looking mighty similar to the one that attacked the Normandy and colonists are being abducted. and then Shepard does in fact show up, acting uncomfortable and talking about how Cerberus brought him back.

there is a joke. a woman comes home early and finds her boyfriend in bed with 2 naked women, wrapped all over him and he tells her that its not what it looks like. she doesn't buy it so he tells her: "are you going to believe your eyes or what I tell you?"

whatever impossible stunts Shepard pulled? they never once looked that bad. and Shepard doesn't even get to say to Ash, that he doesn't trust Cerberus. BOTH messed up. and in my opinion Shepard looked much worse then Ash. thanks to TIM and his manipulations mostly, but nonetheless.

All true (though I think the punchline is supposed to be "What are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?")  But there are three details:

1) Shepard may have a history of really not liking Cerberus.  To the point of destroying several of their bases and killing dozens of their personel.  Whatever Cerberus would have on Shepard to get him to help would have to quite substantial at that point.  Like I said, Ash thinking Shepard willingly joined up with Cerberus only seems to fit the most anti-alien playthroughs you can do in ME1

2)  While that ship that shows up looks a lot like the ship that attacked the Normandy, it should be noted that Shepard and his companions are shooting at the aliens kidnapping the colonists and using the GARDIAN to drive off the cruiser.  Clearly Shepard is not in cahoots with the aliens attacking the colony.  Unless this is a hoax of X-Files proportions

3) I'd say stealing the Normandy is pretty far up there in terms of crazy stunts.  Doing so made them fugitives of both the Alliance and the Citadel Council.  If Shepard was wrong, their careers were toast.  At best.  Imprisonment for treason would be far more likely.  Possibly execution.

Not saying Ash is necessarilly wrong in her hostility.  Just saying that it seems wrong from where I'm sitting.  There's a big piece of this puzzle that's missing that really should have been in ME2.  Just like with Liara.  I need context.  It was very poor writing keeping us in the dark like that.

Oh and Shepard's responses Wall-bangingly bad too.

Modifié par iakus, 11 septembre 2011 - 12:10 .

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

YouthCultureForever  said - "I don't understand why everyone demonizes the VS. IMO, Ashley is the only character in the game who made any sense at all. Why shouldn't she question your alliance with Cerberus? Its hella shady Shepard would lead the most classifed mission in the organization's history with a, "Well, its in the best interest of the galaxy"."
 
I don't demonize Williams. I respect her as a professional solider and as a human being, but her behavior on Horizon was too much. She never explored why I was working with Cerberus. She heard rumors, feared the worst, and when Shep mentioned Cerberus she lost it and called me a traitor to my face and a terrorist to boot. This is despite having witnessed me save Horizon and her from the collectors. So...what does she base that on?
 
If you know a person, linked yourself to them emotionally and sexually, loved them, and mourned horribly for them after they had died, I would think that paying heed to the rumors being circulated about that person would be a bridge too far to cross. Yet Ashley does so with vigor and solid conviction after having just witnessed Shepard saving the colony. I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. As Shepard pleads with Williams, telling her that she knows him and knows that he would never work with Cerberus if there were any other choice, his pleas fall on deaf ears.
 
She is angry, she won't listen, and she has convicted Shepard of treason and terrorism in her mind. Given that, what could Shepard possibly say to overcome that? What is she going to think when she finds out that Shepard is personally responsible for the deaths of more than 304,000 civilians including men, women, and children? She's going to think that Shepard has gone off his rocker and went totally dark side. Judging by what I've seen of the ME3 trailers, I am not going to have time to explain to her what is going on and besides, I may as well be speaking to a brick wall for all of the understanding and comprehension Williams demonstrated on Horizon. Apparently, it just isn't in her character.
 

Please, when you argue don't address just part of my argument. Take the the entire arguement into consideration. Firstly, the information she recieves about Shepard working for Cerberus isn't simply a rumor. Its Alliance intel. Not scuttlebutt. Not gossip. Its not like she stood on the street corner and eavesdropped on a group of teenagers discussing Shepard's latest exploits. Its classifed information from Alliance high command. Its reliable information. In fact, she is on Horizon to confirm Shepard's involvement with Cereberus (if you take the neutral conversation option she will tell you setting up the defense guns is mostly a front).

And, Ashley doesn't believe Shepard went off the deep and morphed into a Cerberus fanboy overnight. Again, the betrayal she talks about is emotional. Its got nothing to do with the Alliance, Anderson, politics, or factions. She calls you a traitor because, IMO, she feels you don't quite stand for the same things anymore. In her own way she pities you for not being able to read between the lines and see that Cerberus's motives are much more sinister. She reminds you that you are indeed working for a terrorist organization. It doesn't matter how nice they have been to you.

If she had asked, "Shepard, why in the hell would you work with Cerberus? It makes no sense for you to do this. It will never make any sense." What would you say? "Its in the best interest of humanity," or "You know me Ash you know I'd only do it if I had to," or something along those lines. Thats what it would inevitably boil down to. With the first response Shepard sounds naive at best, foolish at worst. He is putting alot of faith into an organization that he knows next to nothing about. He learns the most about Cerberus from EDI and only after she has been released from security protocols. That won't suffice. With the second response Shepard is just asking too much. Disregard the facts and evidence, put your life on hold, put love over logic, and join me on my misguided crusade. Get real. She shouldn't be blinded by love. 

You didn't save Horizon either. The colony was abducted and frankly Ash was lucky she wasn't snatched. Shepard isn't always the knight in shining armor.

Ashley is understandablely emotianal during the reunion, but she isn't stupid about it. She isn't an emotional madwoman, giving Shep the cold shoulder because she feels like it. There is no denying she would rather have a joyous reunion, but its just not completely possible. Her shots at Shepard are specific and supported circumstantially. 

One last thing, Ash is smart enough to know whats going on, your Shepard doesn't have to "explain things" to her like shes an imbecile.

Food for thought.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Iakus]

[quote]YouthCultureForever wrote...

And, Ashley doesn't believe Shepard went off the deep and morphed into a Cerberus fanboy overnight. Again, the betrayal she talks about is emotional. Its got nothing to do with the Alliance, Anderson, politics, or factions. She calls you a traitor because, IMO, she feels you don't quite stand for the same things anymore. In her own way she pities you for not being able to read between the lines and see that Cerberus's motives are much more sinister. She reminds you that you are indeed working for a terrorist organization. It doesn't matter how nice they have been to you.{/quote]

And it's a pity Shepard can't agree that he dioesnt' trust them, like he could with Garrus or Tali:

Tali:  It doesn't seem right to have Cerberus in charge of this ship.  Are you sure  working for them is the right thing to do?
Shepard: I fully expect them to betray us at some point.  And we'll be ready

Garrus:  Frankly I'm more worried about you.  Cerberus, Shepard?  You remember those sick experiments they were doing?
Shepard:  That's why I'm glad you're here, Garrus.  If I'm walking into hell, I want someone I trust at my side.

In both cases, Shepard admits that he may have made a Faustian bargain, and his allies are not trustworthy.  What does Shep say to Ash?  "It'll be just like old times"  Really?

[quote]
If she had asked, "Shepard, why in the hell would you work with Cerberus? It makes no sense for you to do this. It will never make any sense." What would you say? "Its in the best interest of humanity," or "You know me Ash you know I'd only do it if I had to," or something along those lines. Thats what it would inevitably boil down to. With the first response Shepard sounds naive at best, foolish at worst. He is putting alot of faith into an organization that he knows next to nothing about. He learns the most about Cerberus from EDI and only after she has been released from security protocols. That won't suffice. With the second response Shepard is just asking too much. Disregard the facts and evidence, put your life on hold, put love over logic, and join me on my misguided crusade. Get real. She shouldn't be blinded by love. [/quote]

For the second response, I find the first three words "You know me" the most important.  Shepard's past actions indicate that Shepard would never side with Cerberus unless there was no other option.  Now, one may queston if Shepard is "Shepard" and may be an imposter or is acting under some form of compulsion.  But Ash should know that Shep would, in fact only do this if it was absolutely necessary.

[YouthCultureForever]

@iakus

Shepard may acknowledge he doesn't trust Cerberus (if you choose renegade options), but that doesn't mean anything. If anything its more proof of arrogance and ignorance on Shepard's part. The Illusive man screws and manipulates you the entire mission and what does Shepard do? Nothing. Shepard is just a tool. A means to an end.

And, IMO, Ashley believes that Shepard belives he is doing this for the right reasons. That doesn't make it a smart decision. She shouldn't agree with him just because she loves him. She is disagreeing with him because she wants to protect him.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 11 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever said - "Please, when you argue don't address just part of my argument. Take the the entire arguement into consideration. Firstly, the information she recieves about Shepard working for Cerberus isn't simply a rumor. Its Alliance intel. Not scuttlebutt. Not gossip. Its not like she stood on the street corner and eavesdropped on a group of teenagers discussing Shepard's latest exploits. Its classifed information from Alliance high command. Its reliable information. In fact, she is on Horizon to confirm Shepard's involvement with Cereberus (if you take the neutral conversation option she will tell you setting up the defense guns is mostly a front)."
 
There is an old saying that Military Intelligence is a contradiction of terms and whether you attribute the lack of intelligence to the part of the military or intelligence or both is up to you. A real life example of faulty intel is that the U.S. goes to war with Iraq and everybody blames the President for listening to faulty intelligence despite the fact that not only our agencies were reporting WMDs, but also agencies overseas were confirming the intel. While your faith in intel may be unshakeable, there are many varieties of it. There is raw intel, humint, elint, photo intel, extrapolations, and the list goes on and on. My point is that intel is fallible. There are double and even triple agents and false info being fed into the pipeline designed to mislead or confirm false impressions. Intel, even during the best of times, should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
And, Ashley doesn't believe Shepard went off the deep and morphed into a Cerberus fanboy overnight. Again, the betrayal she talks about is emotional. Its got nothing to do with the Alliance, Anderson, politics, or factions. She calls you a traitor because, IMO, she feels you don't quite stand for the same things anymore. In her own way she pities you for not being able to read between the lines and see that Cerberus's motives are much more sinister. She reminds you that you are indeed working for a terrorist organization. It doesn't matter how nice they have been to you.
 
It was not overnight, it was two years. Further, she does in fact accuse you of betraying the Alliance, Anderson and her. Regarding the betrayal of the Alliance, how could Shepard wound them emotionally? No, his betrayal is effectively treason on that score. When she mentions Anderson she means that Shepard has betrayed him in both a personal (friendship) and professional (Alliance/Council) level, and when she includes herself, yes she does mean it personally, but also professionally secondary to betrayal of the Alliance.
 
In order for her to muster pity, she must also be able to muster sympathy. If you listen to her words on Horizon the vocal inflections clearly have venom in them, not pity. Listen to her say "I know where my loyalties lay" and you can hear venom dripping in her words because they are fueled with anger. Saying that Williams felt pity for Shepard is like saying someone said, "I feel so sorry for you, you rotten, conniving bastard." It doesn't make any sense because anger, shock, and horror preclude the pathos that you would find concomitant with these things. If she feels any of the softer emotions it is she mourning the loss of what she once had.
 
If she had asked, "Shepard, why in the hell would you work with Cerberus? It makes no sense for you to do this. It will never make any sense." What would you say?
 
And you prove my point, that Shepard could have said nothing to change her mind despite their history together because she had already made up her mind and would not hear him.
 
"Its in the best interest of humanity," or "You know me Ash you know I'd only do it if I had to," or something along those lines. Thats what it would inevitably boil down to. With the first response Shepard sounds naive at best, foolish at worst. He is putting alot of faith into an organization that he knows next to nothing about. He learns the most about Cerberus from EDI and only after she has been released from security protocols. That won't suffice.
 
I don't know about you, but my Shepard knows quite a bit about them. He knows that they are human supremacist, he knows that they murdered Admiral Kohoku, he is aware that they have experimented on and murdered children, he knows that they have ties to the Alliance, he is aware that they are experimenting on creepers, Rachni, and husks to create a private army. He knows that they have murdered Alliance soldiers. How much more does he need to know and how can you call that next to nothing? He knows enough to judge them as evil and as terrorists. What do you argue that he should have done? Abandon the colonists to their gory fates?
 
With the second response Shepard is just asking too much. Disregard the facts and evidence, put your life on hold, put love over logic, and join me on my misguided crusade. Get real. She shouldn't be blinded by love.
 
I didn't expect Ash to join with me on my crusade. I expected her to support a loved one. I expected her to remember who I was. I expected her to know me and my values and character. I expected her to be suspicious, but I never expected her to cut me off like a gangrenous limb over rumors. I never expected her to do to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather. If anyone was betrayed on Horizon, it was Shepard.
 
You didn't save Horizon either. The colony was abducted and frankly Ash was lucky she wasn't snatched. Shepard isn't always the knight in shining armor.
 
I doubt that the guy that I shoved out of a window on Dantius Towers or the guy whose neck I snapped on Miranda's loyalty mission would call me a knight in shining armor, but you are wrong, I did save some of Horizon. I did prevent the Collectors from completing their mission and I did save Ashley's ass for the third time.
 
Ashley is understandablely emotianal during the reunion, but she isn't stupid about it. She isn't an emotional madwoman, giving Shep the cold shoulder because she feels like it. There is no denying she would rather have a joyous reunion, but its just not completely possible. Her shots at Shepard are specific and supported circumstantially.
 
Really? She gives Shepard an obligatory hug while she is shaking with rage. She calls Shepard a traitor to the Alliance, to Anderson, and to herself. She accuses Shepard of being too dimwitted to understand Cerberus. She wonders if Cerberus isn't really just pulling Shepard's strings like a puppet. What's so smart about all of that? If you wish further magnification of Ashley's actions on Horizon, back up a few pages and read what ubermensch007 posted regarding her Horizon debrief. If she had asked questions designed to elicit a response to provide her with all of the information she has concocted in her mind, then yes, I would agree with you that she was smart. But she didn't do that did she? No, she just blows her top and bugs out.
 
It is only after she learns from Anderson that everything that Shepard said was the truth, does she even bother to send an email apology and it is tepid and half arsed. That is way too little and way too late. She has recreated what happened to General Williams without the benefit of common sense or of the facts. Knowing how she felt about what was done to her grandfather, how can she ever justify doing the same thing to another person and one that she claimed to have loved?
 
One last thing, Ash is smart enough to know whats going on, your Shepard doesn't have to "explain things" to her like shes an imbecile.
 
You could have fooled me.
 
Food for thought."
 
There, I have addressed your entire argument as you have requested. I would appreciate you yielding me the same courtesy in your response if you choose to respond.
 
 
jeweledleah said - "She is perfectly aware of the threat from reapers. she was there. she also knows that Shepard is aware, that Shepard clashed with council about it and was sent to clean up Geth. Shepard stole a ship to o after Saren, Shepard has shown that he's willing to bend the rules to go after what he thinks is right. and as such - he could possibly be manipulated into doing something for good causes, with good intentions. the ship that attacked the Normandy looks mighty similar to the one that attacked Horizon."
 
In fact, she wasn't there. She wasn't present when Shepard spoke to Sovereign on Vrmire. She doesn't have any personal knowledge of that conversation. All that she had to go on was Shepard's word and the recording of Vigil which is no longer functioning. She stole an Alliance warship, placed her military career in jeopardy, risked being branded a traitor to the Alliance all because she had faith in Shepard. Where has that faith gone? She has been on her own for two years and subject to the influence of the Alliance. How can we really know what she thinks or believes about the Reapers anymore? Her views may have changed dramatically. If anything, her reaction of Horizon was telling regarding how she feels and thinks about Shepard now. Where once she trusted him and had faith in him, now she clearly doesn't. That makes her a wild card.
 
By the way, love your Avatar. I used to read She Hulk back in the day when Byrne was on the book. I thought that it was undervalued and very well written.
 
 
iakus said "Oh and Shepard's responses Wall-bangingly bad too."
 
Can't say that I disagree with you on that point, my friend.
 
 
YouthCultureForever said "Shepard may acknowledge he doesn't trust Cerberus (if you choose renegade options), but that doesn't mean anything. If anything its more proof of arrogance and ignorance on Shepard's part. The Illusive man screws and manipulates you the entire mission and what does Shepard do? Nothing. Shepard is just a tool. A means to an end."


On the arrogance and ignorance part, I disagree with your position. On the TIM is using Shepard, I agree completely. Let's say for the sake of argument that Shepard told TIM to kiss off and just left. What would have been the likely result of that? Colonies would have continued to disappear, the innocent would have continued to suffer, and humanity wouldn't be long for the world after the arrival of the Reapers. Shepard knows this.
 
Next, who would support Shepard? How would he earn a living? Where could he go? The Council and Alliance no longer trust him. Williams no longer has any faith or trust in him due to her love of rumors over the man that she knows. All of Shepard's associates are now occupied with other responsibilities. Though Shepard is unaware of this during his first meetings with TIM. I suppose that he could sign up with the Blue Suns, but I doubt that you would approve of that anymore than you would approve of him working with Cerberus because the Suns are a continuing criminal enterprise.
 
Therefore, the only option left is that Shepard is going to have to crawl back to Cerberus because nobody else will have him (even if Shepard did find other employment, rest assured that TIM would insure that Shepard got fired forthwith). As far as arrogance and ignorance coming into the equation, it doesn't. Shepard works with Cerberus because somebody has to defend the human colonies from the Collector attacks.
 
By taking this mission on he protects innocent men, women, and children who otherwise would have ended up being used by the Collectors for unknown purposes and while they are unknown, there is sufficient reason to believe it isn't to provide them with milk and cookies. Therefore, Shepard acts out of compassion and mercy not arrogance and ignorance as you describe and Shepard did in fact possess this knowledge when he made his decision to work with Cerberus.
 
"And, IMO, Ashley believes that Shepard belives he is doing this for the right reasons. That doesn't make it a smart decision. She shouldn't agree with him just because she loves him. She is disagreeing with him because she wants to protect him."
 
It sure doesn't seem that way to me. It sounded like she was disgusted by him and his choices. I will not claim to know what is in Ashley's mind, but her behavior is far from what you describe in my estimation. Especially if you watch the facial movements and hear the vocal inflections as she speaks. Frankly, I am surprised that she didn't try to arrest him right then and there and haul his ass back to the Alliance for trial. If the UCMJ is similar to Alliance law in the game, she certainly had the right to do so. Ashley says that she has changed, I have to agree. I don't know her anymore.

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

@iakus

Shepard may acknowledge he doesn't trust Cerberus (if you choose renegade options), but that doesn't mean anything. If anything its more proof of arrogance and ignorance on Shepard's part. The Illusive man screws and manipulates you the entire mission and what does Shepard do? Nothing. Shepard is just a tool. A means to an end.

And, IMO, Ashley believes that Shepard belives he is doing this for the right reasons. That doesn't make it a smart decision. She shouldn't agree with him just because she loves him. She is disagreeing with him because she wants to protect him.

Actually, those were paragon optons I imagine the renegade ones are...harsher:D

Ash not approving is fine by me.  I'd have loved it if she reminded Shepard what the Road to Hell is paved with.  That Saren started out trying to do the right thing.  Place more emphasis on the idea that Cerberus may be using SHepard for a more nefarious goal.  But that';s not what we got.

I have no problem with Ash not wanting to come along.  I have no problem with her thinking Shepard's being foolish in working with Cerberus.  What I have a problem with is Ash assuming Shepard is a traitor.  "How could you just turn your back on all of us?  You betrayed the Alliance...  Anderson.  You betrayed me"

And to be fair, the options Shepard got to respond to this charge were tepid at best.  Especially copared to dealing with Garrus and Tali's concerns.  It was an all-around bad scene.  An artificial conflict because the Plot demanded Garrus and Tali, but not Kaidan or Ashley.

Modifié par iakus, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:30 .

[Eyeshield21]

I have a question. If you romanced her in ME1 and romanced someone else in 2, what is likely to happen in 3? and if you didn't romance in 2, will she still love you?

[Eyeshield21]

oh well, we'll see as more info comes out.

[YouthCultureForever]

KnightnBlu wrote...

1.There is an old saying that Military Intelligence is a contradiction of terms and whether you attribute the lack of intelligence to the part of the military or intelligence or both is up to you. A real life example of faulty intel is that the U.S. goes to war with Iraq and everybody blames the President for listening to faulty intelligence despite the fact that not only our agencies were reporting WMDs, but also agencies overseas were confirming the intel. While your faith in intel may be unshakeable, there are many varieties of it. There is raw intel, humint, elint, photo intel, extrapolations, and the list goes on and on. My point is that intel is fallible. There are double and even triple agents and false info being fed into the pipeline designed to mislead or confirm false impressions. Intel, even during the best of times, should be taken with a grain of salt.

2.It was not overnight, it was two years. Further, she does in fact accuse you of betraying the Alliance, Anderson and her. Regarding the betrayal of the Alliance, how could Shepard wound them emotionally? No, his betrayal is effectively treason on that score. When she mentions Anderson she means that Shepard has betrayed him in both a personal (friendship) and professional (Alliance/Council) level, and when she includes herself, yes she does mean it personally, but also professionally secondary to betrayal of the Alliance.

3.In order for her to muster pity, she must also be able to muster sympathy. If you listen to her words on Horizon the vocal inflections clearly have venom in them, not pity. Listen to her say "I know where my loyalties lay" and you can hear venom dripping in her words because they are fueled with anger. Saying that Williams felt pity for Shepard is like saying someone said, "I feel so sorry for you, you rotten, conniving bastard." It doesn't make any sense because anger, shock, and horror preclude the pathos that you would find concomitant with these things. If she feels any of the softer emotions it is she mourning the loss of what she once had.

And you prove my point, that Shepard could have said nothing to change her mind despite their history together because she had already made up her mind and would not hear him.

4.I don't know about you, but my Shepard knows quite a bit about them. He knows that they are human supremacist, he knows that they murdered Admiral Kohoku, he is aware that they have experimented on and murdered children, he knows that they have ties to the Alliance, he is aware that they are experimenting on creepers, Rachni, and husks to create a private army. He knows that they have murdered Alliance soldiers. How much more does he need to know and how can you call that next to nothing? He knows enough to judge them as evil and as terrorists. What do you argue that he should have done? Abandon the colonists to their gory fates?

5.I didn't expect Ash to join with me on my crusade. I expected her to support a loved one. I expected her to remember who I was. I expected her to know me and my values and character. I expected her to be suspicious, but I never expected her to cut me off like a gangrenous limb over rumors. I never expected her to do to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather. If anyone was betrayed on Horizon, it was Shepard.

6.I doubt that the guy that I shoved out of a window on Dantius Towers or the guy whose neck I snapped on Miranda's loyalty mission would call me a knight in shining armor, but you are wrong, I did save some of Horizon. I did prevent the Collectors from completing their mission and I did save Ashley's ass for the third time.

7.Really? She gives Shepard an obligatory hug while she is shaking with rage. She calls Shepard a traitor to the Alliance, to Anderson, and to herself. She accuses Shepard of being too dimwitted to understand Cerberus. She wonders if Cerberus isn't really just pulling Shepard's strings like a puppet. What's so smart about all of that? If you wish further magnification of Ashley's actions on Horizon, back up a few pages and read what ubermensch007 posted regarding her Horizon debrief. If she had asked questions designed to elicit a response to provide her with all of the information she has concocted in her mind, then yes, I would agree with you that she was smart. But she didn't do that did she? No, she just blows her top and bugs out.

8.It is only after she learns from Anderson that everything that Shepard said was the truth, does she even bother to send an email apology and it is tepid and half arsed. That is way too little and way too late. She has recreated what happened to General Williams without the benefit of common sense or of the facts. Knowing how she felt about what was done to her grandfather, how can she ever justify doing the same thing to another person and one that she claimed to have loved?

There, I have addressed your entire argument as you have requested. I would appreciate you yielding me the same courtesy in your response if you choose to respond.

9.On the arrogance and ignorance part, I disagree with your position. On the TIM is using Shepard, I agree completely. Let's say for the sake of argument that Shepard told TIM to kiss off and just left. What would have been the likely result of that? Colonies would have continued to disappear, the innocent would have continued to suffer, and humanity wouldn't be long for the world after the arrival of the Reapers. Shepard knows this.

Next, who would support Shepard? How would he earn a living? Where could he go? The Council and Alliance no longer trust him. Williams no longer has any faith or trust in him due to her love of rumors over the man that she knows. All of Shepard's associates are now occupied with other responsibilities. Though Shepard is unaware of this during his first meetings with TIM. I suppose that he could sign up with the Blue Suns, but I doubt that you would approve of that anymore than you would approve of him working with Cerberus because the Suns are a continuing criminal enterprise.

Therefore, the only option left is that Shepard is going to have to crawl back to Cerberus because nobody else will have him (even if Shepard did find other employment, rest assured that TIM would insure that Shepard got fired forthwith). As far as arrogance and ignorance coming into the equation, it doesn't. Shepard works with Cerberus because somebody has to defend the human colonies from the Collector attacks.

By taking this mission on he protects innocent men, women, and children who otherwise would have ended up being used by the Collectors for unknown purposes and while they are unknown, there is sufficient reason to believe it isn't to provide them with milk and cookies. Therefore, Shepard acts out of compassion and mercy not arrogance and ignorance as you describe and Shepard did in fact possess this knowledge when he made his decision to work with Cerberus.

It sure doesn't seem that way to me. It sounded like she was disgusted by him and his choices. I will not claim to know what is in Ashley's mind, but her behavior is far from what you describe in my estimation. Especially if you watch the facial movements and hear the vocal inflections as she speaks. Frankly, I am surprised that she didn't try to arrest him right then and there and haul his ass back to the Alliance for trial. If the UCMJ is similar to Alliance law in the game, she certainly had the right to do so. Ashley says that she has changed, I have to agree. I don't know her anymore.[/quote]

1. What false information do you think Ashley has been feed? She recieves reports that Shepard is working with Cerberus. She recieves a tip that Horizon may be the next colony to get hit by Collectors and Cerberus may be peripherally involved. The Collectors land. Who shows up next? A Cerberus team lead by Shepard. The intel is accurate.

2. "You betrayed the Alliance, you betrayed Anderson. You betrayed me." You betrayed me is undeniably the most important part of that statement. If Ash had made this statement, "You betrayed me, you betrayed Anderson, you betrayed the Alliance," I would concede that treason is what mattered most to her. Its not. This is personal. Shepard's relationship with Ashley is built on the grounds of commonality and compatibility. He isn't the same. His values tweeked to fit a tough situation. Values they shared. Emotional betrayal.

3. This is Ashley we're taking about. Not meek and mild Liara. Her words are going to be colorful. And don't take everything at face value. I easily detect sadness, suspiscion, disbelief, pity, anger from her choice of words. She is angry, but mostly her anger is a mask for emotions she doesn't express well. She loves poetry for example because poets can express feelings better than she can.

4. The motivation behind an action is equally imporant if not more important than the act itself. Is it logical to belive TIM would spend billions of credits on one indivdual with the farfetched hope they would come back to life in superior fighting form and strike fear into the hearts of machines. Its suspicious as it gets. He could have trained an army, set up troops near every colony, and sprung into action with what he spent on the Lazarus Project. Instead he gambled on a dead soldier. You don't know what Cerberus's true purpose for Shepard is. Shepard gets screwed on intel from TIM and manipulated at every turn. He doesn't know what kind of magical technology was installed in him and he doesn't even bother to ask. He doesn't know squat.

5. You don't have to support a loved one making a bad choice. You absolutely do not have to support their choice. If you really love them you will tell them its stupid.

6. Goody two shoes or heroic sociopath, Shepard is the supossed Savior of the Galaxy. And you did not stop the Collectors on Horizon. They made off with the colonists. Shepard barely got of there himself. They were on your ass until the defense guns powered up. No defense guns - dead Shepard.

7. You don't think any of the questions she asks or statements she makes are legitimate? They're what anyone with common sense would at least think . Ash has the gall to ask it.

8. Ashley's apology isnt "half arsed". Cautious, yes. And don't sensationalize Shepard's situation. She didn't call in the Alliance firing squad. She cares.

9. Like TIM would let his investment walk away. Things would get much more interesting if Shepard did try to walk. We would learn alot about Cerberus then. Shepard was easily manipulated into doing Cerberus's bidding. He gets no pat on the back for that.

*Statements were in response to dense paragraphs. Read in context.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 12 septembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[YouthCultureForever]

laecraft wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

8. Ashley's apology isnt "half arsed". Cautious, yes. And don't sensatinalize Shepard's situation. She didn't call in the Alliance firing squad. She cares.

She can't. It's the Terminus Systems. The Alliance fleet or squad can't enter here without starting a war. Or so we've been told. Repeatedly. Apparently they can't enter if it's for protecting the human colonies, but they can send their agent here if it means hunting down Cerberus.

Besides, the Alliance wanted to arrest Shepard, but Hackett vetoed that. Ashley's hands are bound. She can't do anything at all.

Perhaps she gets her chance at shooting Shepard in ME3. It would depend on her orders, I suppose. And on whether or not I'm allowed to kick her out of my ship. I'm not fighting alongside the person who can gun me down at the crucial moment. The galaxy depends on me.

That was metaphorical. She doesn't come at Shepard with, "You should be thrown in prison!". She isn't throwing Shepard under the bus. Its just not somethng she would do.

[jeweledleah]

laecraft wrote...

She can't. It's the Terminus Systems. The Alliance fleet or squad can't enter here without starting a war. Or so we've been told. Repeatedly. Apparently they can't enter if it's for protecting the human colonies, but they can send their agent here if it means hunting down Cerberus.

except they ARE there to protect the colonies.  they were just told that Cerberus is the one behind the abductions.  they learn differently on Horizon, not in a least due to Ashley's corroboration of Shepard's findings.

and if you play arrival before suicide mission, you can ask Hackett what they are doing about the collectors and he will tell you that they are discretely evacuating what colonies they can, from the fringes

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
It is only after she learns from Anderson that everything that Shepard said was the truth, does she even bother to send an email apology and it is tepid and half arsed. That is way too little and way too late. She has recreated what happened to General Williams without the benefit of common sense or of the facts. Knowing how she felt about what was done to her grandfather, how can she ever justify doing the same thing to another person and one that she claimed to have loved?
 

One little detail:  Anderson tells Shepard that Ash's report confirmed Shepard's "story".  The only detail she couldn't prove was Reaper involvement.  So in a sense, Anderson learned from Ash that Shep was telling the truth.

The letter was tepid, though.  Much better would have been a second face-to-face meeting.  Maybe some evidence that Ash conducted an investigation after Shepard left and didn't just take off in a snit.

Modifié par iakus, 12 septembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Nashiktal]

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
It is only after she learns from Anderson that everything that Shepard said was the truth, does she even bother to send an email apology and it is tepid and half arsed. That is way too little and way too late. She has recreated what happened to General Williams without the benefit of common sense or of the facts. Knowing how she felt about what was done to her grandfather, how can she ever justify doing the same thing to another person and one that she claimed to have loved?
 

One little detail:  Anderson tells Shepard that Ash's report confirmed Shepard's "story".  The only detail she couldn't prove was Reaper involvement.  So in a sense, Anderson learned from Ash that Shep was telling the truth.

The letter was tepid, though.  Much better would have been a second face-to-face meeting.  Maybe some evidence that Ash conducted an investigation after Shepard left and didn't just take off in a snit.

Even a quick video communication would have been nice, if not face to face.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Personally, I was going to keep Ash as my girl in ME2 until Horizon, but after meeting her there I changed my though.
Besides, I wished to romance Tali in ME1 but she was not romancable at that time, so Ashley distrust actually gave me a good point to move on with Tali.

[hypothead]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Personally, I was going to keep Ash as my girl in ME2 until Horizon, but after meeting her there I changed my mind though.
Besides, I wished to romance Tali in ME1 but she was not romancable at that time, so Ashley distrust actually gave me a good point to move on with Tali.

Same here besides the Tali ME1 part.