1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Nashiktal wrote...

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
It is only after she learns from Anderson that everything that Shepard said was the truth, does she even bother to send an email apology and it is tepid and half arsed. That is way too little and way too late. She has recreated what happened to General Williams without the benefit of common sense or of the facts. Knowing how she felt about what was done to her grandfather, how can she ever justify doing the same thing to another person and one that she claimed to have loved?
 

One little detail:  Anderson tells Shepard that Ash's report confirmed Shepard's "story".  The only detail she couldn't prove was Reaper involvement.  So in a sense, Anderson learned from Ash that Shep was telling the truth.

The letter was tepid, though.  Much better would have been a second face-to-face meeting.  Maybe some evidence that Ash conducted an investigation after Shepard left and didn't just take off in a snit.

Even a quick video communication would have been nice, if not face to face.

Oh to hear such a recording in the background as Shep gazed down at her picture during the trip to the Omega IV Relay:  to hear Ash recite:

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. 

As the Suicide Mission starts...what might have been:(

[_FLANDERS]

Team member only, never let sherpard tell his side. woman.

[Angmir]

kyle31 wrote...

Yes, she's still my girl unless Kelly chambers effects the romance for mass effect 3

Got problem with Kelly ? How about putting thouse tubes on Collector Base to proper use ?

[Made Nightwing]

Angmir wrote...

kyle31 wrote...

Yes, she's still my girl unless Kelly chambers effects the romance for mass effect 3

Got problem with Kelly ? How about putting thouse tubes on Collector Base to proper use ?

Who else is going to feed my fish?

[Valdrane78]

I am hoping she is, I doubt she found another man in the our 2 years apart. However I do feel that the romance has been injured and needs some medical attention. I also think that we need to have it out, regardless of the e-mail she sent me. I need some answers and I am sure she needs some too. I don't want the conflict swept under the rug, nore do I want it to dominate the romance I still have with her.

[alperez]

One thing i'd like to point out regarding the apology e-mail and some peoples view that its either half assed or tepid, is the simple fact of the context the e-mail is sent in.

You only receive the e-mail if you romanced Ash so the reasoning behind it changes the context of the apology completely, it also puts horizon in a completely different perspective imo.

While people can argue about Ash's stance on horizon and whether her feelings of betrayal and her claims that Shepard was a traitor was in fact due to her feelings regarding the alliance, the e-mail actually shows that the betrayal is a more personal issue, that shepard being a traitor is not to be taken as the simplest form (turning back on alliance) but more (turning back on beliefs and people in particular Ash).

Her stance on horizon is more to cover her own feelings about being betrayed or dismissed by Shepard than it is to suggest that what Shepard is doing is in some way a betrayal of the alliance, this is even more clearly shown if you romanced her, which is why the e-mail becomes more significant.

Shepard and Ash's relationship in me1 both professional and personal is complex, professionally even if you don't paragon Ash or romance her, you do give her something she never had up to that point, a platform to advance beyond the restrictions placed on the williams name. You show her that not only do you accept her ability to get the job done but her family history isn't something you will use against her.

If you romance her and paragon her this becomes even more significant, she not only grows as a soldier but as a person also.

However as we know all of this changes come me2, shepard dies (and if you romanced Ash the last action you take is to order her to save herself), then returns in a completely different capactity, after an absence of 2 years.

So when you meet Ash, its actually the fact that not only have you been gone for 2 years (presumed dead) only to appear relatively unscathed and reveal you've been back for some time.

From a professional relationship standpoint, you've basically forgotten about Ash completely, have decided that it wasn't worth your time to immediately contact her and make sure she's ok and let her know about you, from a personal standpoint its even worse and from a romanced one its unforgiveable.

When people are emotionally hurt, they will often lash out letting their emotions cloud there actions, this to me is what Ash is doing on horizon, but because she's Ash she's doing so by stating certain facts about the situation Shepard is now in.

Which brings me back to the e-mail, again remember it's only received if you romanced Ash, after horizon no doubt Ash feels that she also handled the situation badly, but she also is completely unsure about Shepard's feelings about what to her was the start of perhaps the most meaningful relationship of her life.

Ash by nature is cautious, she hides her feelings well and only in certain situations does her cautiousness get overtaken by her emotions, I believe horizon to be one of these occasions (also her comments in me1 re: liara when its unclear who Shepard actually wants).

It is this cautiousness and her not being sure of Shepard's own feelings about their relationship added to how the encounter on horizon played out, that make the e-mail that much less of an outright declaration of how she really feels and more a tentative first step in repairing a possibly broken relationship.

So while horizon itself and the e-mail and Ash's whole participation in me2 may have been badly handled and perceived. To me the intent of how it was supposed to be received is there, you just need to look at it a little differently.

Modifié par alperez, 13 septembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Dagger]

She was in ME1
She was not in ME2
She will be in ME3

[knightnblu]

Response to YouthCultureForever
 
"What false information do you think Ashley has been feed?"
 
That Cerberus was behind the colony disappearances and that Shepard was working for them. First, I contend that TIM was the one who "supplied" this info to the Alliance. This was designed to poison the Alliance against Shepard and to get Ashley into play in order to manipulate Shepard. Williams bought it hook, line, and sinker.
 
""You betrayed the Alliance, you betrayed Anderson. You betrayed me." You betrayed me is undeniably the most important part of that statement."
 
If it were, she would have said it first. But she didn't say "You betrayed me, Anderson, and the Alliance." The Alliance and Anderson come first in her minds and only then do we see her list herself. When you are angry with someone do you say that they wronged Bob, Ted, Joe, and you or do you tell them that they wronged you?
 
"This is Ashley we're taking about. Not meek and mild Liara. Her words are going to be colorful. And don't take everything at face value. I easily detect sadness, suspiscion, disbelief, pity, anger from her choice of words. She is angry, but mostly her anger is a mask for emotions she doesn't express well. She loves poetry for example because poets can express feelings better than she can."
 
Really? She seemed pretty capable of expressing her emotions on Horizon to me. As for the rest, apparently you have a far greater insight into her mind than anybody else. Please justify your views. What makes you believe that?
 
"The motivation behind an action is equally imporant if not more important than the act itself. Is it logical to belive TIM would spend billions of credits on one indivdual with the farfetched hope they would come back to life in superior fighting form and strike fear into the hearts of machines. Its suspicious as it gets."
 
Ashley nevereven asks about any of this. How is she supposed to deduce this? Is she psychic? The interaction between Shepard and Williams lasts for just over three minutes. How in the name of God do you derive that she arrived at those conclusions? You and I know that, but the character certainly doesn't.
 
"And you did not stop the Collectors on Horizon. They made off with the colonists. Shepard barely got of there himself. They were on your ass until the defense guns powered up. No defense guns - dead Shepard."
 
Oh? So the Collectors completed their mission did they? By your logic they could have nuked us from orbit just for spite. Why didn't they? Why didn't they just destroy the Normandy in orbit? Why not simply blow the ship's drive and end Cmdr. Shepard, Ashley, and crew right then and there? Let's stop resorting to specious arguments to support a tenuous position shall we? I say, we stick to the facts as they occurred and the fact of the matter is that the Collectors were stopped by Shepard and prevented from fulfilling their objective. Whether you like it or not, that is a success. I call it a success because Cmdr. Shepard said that it wasn't a victory because he couldn't save everyone.
 
"You don't think any of the questions she asks or statements she makes are legitimate? They're what anyone with common sense would at least think . Ash has the gall to ask it."
 
And where exactly did I say that she didn't have the right to ask questions? When I **** about Ashley betraying me on Horizon, I do so because she refused to listen, refused to ask questions, and ignored all of the history they had together and preferred to believe in vague "rumors" that were passed off as intel. That is not the picture of the paragon of virtue and duty that the Ashley apologists make her out to be.
 
"Ashley's apology isnt "half arsed". Cautious, yes. And don't sensationalize Shepard's situation. She didn't call in the Alliance firing squad. She cares."
 
She cares? About what specifically? She abandoned Shepard on Horizon. She ignored their history together, she called him a traitor and questioned his intelligence. Where is the caring in that? Those are not my assertions, that was her behavior. She is not some candy arsed chick from la la land. She is a hardened combat vet who was addressing a superior officer on Horizon in a hostile environment. Why does everyone seem to forget that? Or are we supposed to treat her like a frilly, girly girl when she fouls up like she did on Horizon and the ultimate badass when she is shooting? You can't have it both ways because she's either a combat NCO or she isn't.
 
You even go so far as to have a go at Liara in your defense of Ashley and her psychosis calling Liara both meek and mild. Yet you feel no hesitation whatsoever at depicting Ashley as being soft, emotional, and hurt. That dog won't hunt.
 
"Shepard was easily manipulated into doing Cerberus's bidding. He gets no pat on the back for that."
 
So you would have advocated Shepard abandoning the colonists to their grisly end would you? That's just cold. Just walk away and allow each and every man, woman, and child to be taken without so much as even lifting a finger to help them. I don't believe that you have it in you to do something like that.
 
I say that because of your passionate defense of Ashley. You perceive her as being vulnerable and you jump to her defense and that is an admirable thing to do and if it is admirable to defend her, then it is also admirable to defend the colonists that are helpless. At least, that is the way that I see it.
 
That being said, I do not hate Ashley. On the contrary, it is because I liked her so much that her betrayal stung. Add in her bizarre behavior, a crappy emailed apology that did absolutely nothing to repair the damage and you arrive at exactly where we are today and left with the question of "Can I still trust her?"
Trust is a huge issue. How can you have any kind of a relationship with somebody that you can no longer trust? As for myself, I don't even want her on my ship. In fact, I feel so strongly about it that I made it my signature (GTFOMS or Get The F### Off MY Ship). As for those who will say, "But...but...what will you do without Ashley?!?" I say, I did just fine without her in ME2 and I sure as hell don't need to have her as a headache in ME3.
 
I for one, am sick and tired of women always getting a pass for their bad behavior. It is always the same old, tired crap of she's just tired, she's on her period, she's had a bad day, She has a lot on her mind, etc. and I think that is absolute garbage. A man isn't shown such lenience. I have no problem with women who want to be treated the same as the boys. But if they do, then they had damned well better be held to the same standards that I have to live up to.
 
That was one of the reasons that I cottoned to Ashley in ME1. She wasn't the soft, lacey, frilly, girl. She was a combat hardened veteran and NCO. An equal in every sense of the word. She was my deadliest soldier. The personal relationship was the icing on the cake. That is why the emailed apology was crap. That is not who she was portrayed to be in ME1. My Ashley would have had the guts to face me herself and apologize if she believed that she had done something wrong. Whoever that was on Horizon, she didn't have the guts to do that, hence it was a candy assed and tepid missive.
 
Either Williams is tough as nails or she isn't. Either she is a hardened combat veteran or she isn't. Either she is my woman or she isn't and Ash chose isn't on Horizon. Now, I can't trust her anymore and a tepid, mealymouthed apology cannot fix that.
 
Miranda I can trust, I can trust Tali, I can even trust Kelly and Jack. Trust Williams? No way in hell. I don't know where her loyalties lay, but they certainly don't lie with me anymore. She proved that on Horizon when she hung me out to dry like a cheap suit.

[knightnblu]

alperez - I cannot speak for others, but My Shep did everything that the game allowed him to do to find her. He was stymied by Anderson and there wasn't even a dialog option to ask him to contact her for me. I was left with no other option. Like everybody else, we were tracked in a specific direction toward a specific end.
 
I have no doubt that BioWare intended to cause some ripples between the VS and Shepard. Primarily because they wanted to provide an easy out for cheating with Tali, Miranda, or Jack and to indicate just how much the galaxy no longer trusts you anymore. But that plan backfired in my opinion. Instead of creating a cheating scenario in ME3, they inadvertently created a breakup between Shepard and his/her LI.
 
I suppose that it never occurred to the writers that some of us may not be as forgiving as other players have proven to be. If that's you, I have no problem with it because that's your business. Me? I want Williams front and center and standing tall explaining her malfunction on Horizon. I want her to explain why she treated me exactly like the Alliance treated her grandfather. I want to hear from her why I should ever trust her again. That's what I want. After saving her ass three times, I don't think that is a lot to ask. I won't hold my breath waiting for it though.
 
iakus wrote:
 
"Oh to hear such a recording in the background as Shep gazed down at her picture during the trip to the Omega IV Relay: to hear Ash recite:

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

As the Suicide Mission starts...what might have been"
 
 
Wow, that would have been awesome indeed. A pity that BioWare didn't do something like that.

[YouthCultureForever]

In Response to KnightnBlu

1."What false information do you think Ashley has been feed?"
 
That Cerberus was behind the colony disappearances and that Shepard was working for them. First, I contend that TIM was the one who "supplied" this info to the Alliance. This was designed to poison the Alliance against Shepard and to get Ashley into play in order to manipulate Shepard. Williams bought it hook, line, and sinker.
 
2."You betrayed the Alliance, you betrayed Anderson. You betrayed me." You betrayed me is undeniably the most important part of that statement."
 
If it were, she would have said it first. But she didn't say "You betrayed me, Anderson, and the Alliance." The Alliance and Anderson come first in her minds and only then do we see her list herself. When you are angry with someone do you say that they wronged Bob, Ted, Joe, and you or do you tell them that they wronged you?
 
3."This is Ashley we're taking about. Not meek and mild Liara. Her words are going to be colorful. And don't take everything at face value. I easily detect sadness, suspiscion, disbelief, pity, anger from her choice of words. She is angry, but mostly her anger is a mask for emotions she doesn't express well. She loves poetry for example because poets can express feelings better than she can."
 
Really? She seemed pretty capable of expressing her emotions on Horizon to me. As for the rest, apparently you have a far greater insight into her mind than anybody else. Please justify your views. What makes you believe that?
 
4."The motivation behind an action is equally imporant if not more important than the act itself. Is it logical to belive TIM would spend billions of credits on one indivdual with the farfetched hope they would come back to life in superior fighting form and strike fear into the hearts of machines. Its suspicious as it gets."
 
Ashley nevereven asks about any of this. How is she supposed to deduce this? Is she psychic? The interaction between Shepard and Williams lasts for just over three minutes. How in the name of God do you derive that she arrived at those conclusions? You and I know that, but the character certainly doesn't.
 
5."And you did not stop the Collectors on Horizon. They made off with the colonists. Shepard barely got of there himself. They were on your ass until the defense guns powered up. No defense guns - dead Shepard."
 
Oh? So the Collectors completed their mission did they? By your logic they could have nuked us from orbit just for spite. Why didn't they? Why didn't they just destroy the Normandy in orbit? Why not simply blow the ship's drive and end Cmdr. Shepard, Ashley, and crew right then and there? Let's stop resorting to specious arguments to support a tenuous position shall we? I say, we stick to the facts as they occurred and the fact of the matter is that the Collectors were stopped by Shepard and prevented from fulfilling their objective. Whether you like it or not, that is a success. I call it a success because Cmdr. Shepard said that it wasn't a victory because he couldn't save everyone.
 
6."You don't think any of the questions she asks or statements she makes are legitimate? They're what anyone with common sense would at least think . Ash has the gall to ask it."
 
And where exactly did I say that she didn't have the right to ask questions? When I **** about Ashley betraying me on Horizon, I do so because she refused to listen, refused to ask questions, and ignored all of the history they had together and preferred to believe in vague "rumors" that were passed off as intel. That is not the picture of the paragon of virtue and duty that the Ashley apologists make her out to be.
 
7."Ashley's apology isnt "half arsed". Cautious, yes. And don't sensationalize Shepard's situation. She didn't call in the Alliance firing squad. She cares."
 
She cares? About what specifically? She abandoned Shepard on Horizon. She ignored their history together, she called him a traitor and questioned his intelligence. Where is the caring in that? Those are not my assertions, that was her behavior. She is not some candy arsed chick from la la land. She is a hardened combat vet who was addressing a superior officer on Horizon in a hostile environment. Why does everyone seem to forget that? Or are we supposed to treat her like a frilly, girly girl when she fouls up like she did on Horizon and the ultimate badass when she is shooting? You can't have it both ways because she's either a combat NCO or she isn't.
 
You even go so far as to have a go at Liara in your defense of Ashley and her psychosis calling Liara both meek and mild. Yet you feel no hesitation whatsoever at depicting Ashley as being soft, emotional, and hurt. That dog won't hunt.
 
8."Shepard was easily manipulated into doing Cerberus's bidding. He gets no pat on the back for that."
 
So you would have advocated Shepard abandoning the colonists to their grisly end would you? That's just cold. Just walk away and allow each and every man, woman, and child to be taken without so much as even lifting a finger to help them. I don't believe that you have it in you to do something like that. 
 

 My Response Starts Here.


1. Yes, TIM let it slip Shepard was working with Cerberus. When? I've no idea. But, the Alliance used Shepard's likeness as a recruitment add well after his death. He was their poster boy. They're understandably suspicious of Shepard's involvement with Cerberus. But they don't discredit what Shepard has done. Alliance high command still trusts Shepard to handle missions. Admiral Hackett asks you to take on the mission in the Arrival DLC and Anderson doesn't write you off. The Alliance hasn't been poisoned. They aren't against Shepard. The people in the Alliance who matter anyways aren't against Shepard. I'm not saying the Alliance is perfect, they're not. But they aren't out to get you for the hell of it.

And I'm sure the Alliance moniters information on Cerberus. I'm not saying they knew the origins of the intel, but the Shepard info regardless of origin and mutation deserves an investigation. As I said in an earlier post Ashley was on Horizon to investigate. Respecting how she feels about Cerberus you can't expect her to let it go with, "Off saving the galaxy again! Skipper your a heck of a guy."

2. I disagree. I hear distinct emphasis on, "You betrayed me." And, non-romanced Ashley says, "You turned your back on everything we stood for." That sounds personal. She doesn't say, "You turned your back on everything the Alliance stood for." Its not about treason.

3. I just make observations and connect the dots. I can hear it and I can see it. Be more objective.

4. I never assumed Ashley knew Ceberus's motivations. I said Shepard didn't know. You argued what your Shepard knew about them,  

"How can you call that next to nothing? He knows enough to judge them as evil and as terrorists. What do you argue that he should have done? Abandon the colonists to their gory fates? don't know about you, but my Shepard knows quite a bit about them. He knows that they are human supremacist, he knows that they murdered Admiral Kohoku, he is aware that they have experimented on and murdered children, he knows that they have ties to the Alliance, he is aware that they are experimenting on creepers, Rachni, and husks to create a private army. He knows that they have murdered Alliance soldiers. How much more does he need to know?"

I responded,

"The motivation behind an action is equally imporant if not more important than the act itself. Is it logical to belive TIM would spend billions of credits on one indivdual with the farfetched hope they would come back to life in superior fighting form and strike fear into the hearts of machines. Its suspicious as it gets. He could have trained an army, set up troops near every colony, and sprung into action with what he spent on the Lazarus Project. Instead he gambled on a dead soldier. You don't know what Cerberus's true purpose for Shepard is. Shepard gets screwed on intel from TIM. He doesn't know what kind of magical technology was installed in him and he doesn't even bother to ask. He doesn't know squat."

5. I don't claim to know anything about ship technology, but I don't see how they could "nuke" you with a busted up ship. And the Collectors don't want to kill Shepard, they want to capture him. They want him alive. I can send you a PM later about that so we don't get too far off topic. But, the Collecter objective was to snatch humans, transport them, and ultimately use them to make Reapers. They succeded. They didn't get everybody but its not something I would brag about.

6. I never said it was about  whether or not she had a right to ask questions. I said the statements she made and the questions she asked were justified. What critical questions do you believe she ignored? And she doesn't ignore their history together. The Shepard she knew wouldn't work for Cerberus so she doesn't call for his head on a stick. Its Cerberus she doesn't trust. She gives you a fair shake. Shepard isn't public enemy #1. Its Cerberus, and she sticks to her informed opinion of them - no magical persuade option thank goodness.
 
7. I don't see it as abandonment. She genuinely wishes you good luck before she leaves. If she had just given up on Shepard there would be a clear declaration of her feelings. There would be something along the lines of, "You should be thrown in prison you thieving, treacherous fool! You just a low down dirty colony snatching Cerberus lackey!"  Thats abandonment. Ashley still cares about Shepard. She doesn't question his integrity, she questions Cerberus's.

8. I would like to know what TIM's back up plan was. Shepard turns out to be a bust. What next? My Shep would turn into a regular rapscallion just to see what TIM was up to.

*Don't ignore this annotation. Please read in context.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 14 septembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[YouthCultureForever]

alperez wrote...

One thing i'd like to point out regarding the apology e-mail and some peoples view that its either half assed or tepid, is the simple fact of the context the e-mail is sent in.

You only receive the e-mail if you romanced Ash so the reasoning behind it changes the context of the apology completely, it also puts horizon in a completely different perspective imo.

While people can argue about Ash's stance on horizon and whether her feelings of betrayal and her claims that Shepard was a traitor was in fact due to her feelings regarding the alliance, the e-mail actually shows that the betrayal is a more personal issue, that shepard being a traitor is not to be taken as the simplest form (turning back on alliance) but more (turning back on beliefs and people in particular Ash).

Good Post. I agree.

[YouthCultureForever]

jreezy wrote...

Can't everyone just get Ashley and Shepard to kiss and makeup? Preferably in the captain's quarters if you must. While I feel that Ashley was a bit out of line on Horizon I understand how she felt now and hope that after a brief apology, from both parties if necessary, we can just put everything behind us and continue the relationship.

Sorry, we got one going on! Its a nice debate. Can't let it go now.

[zingro]

Just thought I would spread the female love around today <3

I love a gal in uniform, Liara wont notice...

[S Seraff]

i see ashley as a patriot and idealist, who maybe has gotten some world wisdom in the 2-year interim. My shep who has her as a LI only got with Kelly to distract himself from the that ridiculous confrontation on Horizon he'll reassess their compatibility when they meet again, but he's optimistic

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever said "Alliance high command still trusts Shepard to handle missions. Admiral Hackett asks you to take on the mission in the Arrival DLC and Anderson doesn't write you off."
 
I have to disagree with you there. If you look at the Shadow Broker's intel you see that the Alliance wants Shepard arrested and interrogated. The mission for Hackett is off the books and is classified and compartmentalized. As far as the Alliance is concerned, it never happened.
 
Regarding Anderson, he is very suspicious of Shepard. If anything, he no longer trusts him. That being said, he is also unwilling to hang him out to dry either unlike another member of the Alliance who shall remain nameless ;-). Why does he do that instead of just dropping the Guillotine? Because he is willing to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt. I don't know why Anderson could give me the benefit of the doubt and my LI, who arguably knew me even better, couldn't. Well, I have my suspicions, but I have already discussed them in previous posts to this thread.
 
3. Be more objective? Have you not read my posts? Have you not understood my reasoning behind my allegations. If anything, my detractors have praised me for using sound reasoning and arguments to justify my positions. How much more objective can I be?
 
4. My point was that Shepard did indeed know enough about Cerberus to brand them an enemy and that Ashley was ignorant of being able to make any judgment as to Shepard's motivations because she never inquired. If she does not have all of the fact, then how can she judge Shepard's guilt or innocence?
 
Ashley's own grandfather was subjected to similar treatment at the hands of the Alliance. If anybody should have known better, it was she. She doesn't even pause to take a breath and consider what she is doing. She just goes off half cocked. Why is it that she couldn't give her former lover the benefit of the doubt? Why is it that she felt the need to do to Shepard what the Alliance did to her grandfather? Military personnel are expected to use sound judgments in the field. In my opinion, Williams judgment indicates she is not ready to receive a commission. On Horizon, she was about as reasonable as a teenaged girl and not as a senior NCO.
 
5. "...so we don't get too far off topic. But, the Collecter objective was to snatch humans, transport them, and ultimately use them to make Reapers. They succeded. They didn't get everybody but its not something I would brag about."
 
Getting off topic was my point. So far as the Collector ship, they could have overloaded their mass effect core and bye-bye Shepard and company. They could have used their ship weapons to great effect on both the Normandy and to bombard the planet itself.
 
The Collector's objective was to take the ENTIRE colony, not just some of it. While there were partially successful, Cmdr. Shepard interuppted their operations and forced them to withdraw sparing half of the colony. As far as bragging, Shepard does not. He even informs TIM that it wasn't a victory and also Liara when he tells her that he saved some of them, but not enough.
 
But as the colony was already under attack and colonists were being packaged and placed aboard the Collector vessel, how much more could reasonably be done? Not much more than what Shepard was able to accomplish and it is highly doubtful that anybody else could have even achieved that much.
 
6. " She gives you a fair shake. Shepard isn't public enemy #1."
 
Funny, that's not what she said to me. She called me a traitor to the Alliance, Anderson, and her. She accused me of being too stupid to realize that I'm being used, she even called me a liar to my face. Pray tell, how is that a fair shake? How does her emailed and tepid apology clear all of that up?
 
 
7. I don't see it that way.
 
 
jreezy said - "Can't everyone just get Ashley and Shepard to kiss and makeup? Preferably in the captain's quarters if you must. While I feel that Ashley was a bit out of line on Horizon I understand how she felt now and hope that after a brief apology, from both parties if necessary, we can just put everything behind us and continue the relationship".
 
I don't have problem with providing you and any other players who desire that option the opportunity to do so. Me? I don't want her on my ship unless and until she can pony up a decent apology and can explain her malfunction on Horizon. Barring that, give the option to kick her ass off of my ship so that she can become somebody else's problem.
 
laecraft said - "My opinion stands, however. Not everything can be fixed with a kiss and a makeup. Not everything should be. And if the situation on Horizon is not enough to annihilate a relationship, then I don't know what is."
 
Amen.
 
" I feel sorry for my avatar. Get over it, just get over her, put it all behind, focus on the mission. The galaxy is at stake. We don't need her here. We don't need any more unpleasant distractions. Things are grim enough as they are."
 
I damn near cheered when I read this! Williams is the one who opted out of the relationship. She abandoned her trust in her former friend, lover, and commander. Now, I can't trust her. She has become liability and a distraction. I don't need that. I need somebody who I can count on and will follow my orders. Too much is riding on ME3 to allow Ashley's BS to get in the way.
"It's not just a love quarrel between two lovers. It's a clash of core values. Ashley is the very opposite of everything Shepard stands for in ME2. He believes human lives are worth fighting for. Ashley doesn't believe so. He cares about humans. She cares about the alien Council's politics.

He welcomes her back without questioning her. She already knows everything she needs to know about him without asking him any questions. He says, you know me. She believes he could be manipulated into doing...what? Mass murder - like on Bahak?

He's upset and taken aback, but he doesn't use his hurt feelings as an excuse to insult her or call her a traitor. She doesn't have such reservations. He explains. She accuses. He falls into a stupor over this event. She leaves without a slightest hesitation.

He's a savior. She's...the savior's most trusted acolyte. What were her 30 pieces of silver?

I'm surprised she didn't give him a kiss."
 
I am in awe of your assessment. I couldn't agree with your position more. That is precisely the point that the Ashley defenders always gloss over. They blame Shepard, they blame TIM, they blame everybody, but the person who betrayed Shepard. Very well written and I love the imagery.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

"It's not just a love quarrel between two lovers. It's a clash of core values. Ashley is the very opposite of everything Shepard stands for in ME2. He believes human lives are worth fighting for. Ashley doesn't believe so. He cares about humans. She cares about the alien Council's politics.

He welcomes her back without questioning her. She already knows everything she needs to know about him without asking him any questions. He says, you know me. She believes he could be manipulated into doing...what? Mass murder - like on Bahak?

He's upset and taken aback, but he doesn't use his hurt feelings as an excuse to insult her or call her a traitor. She doesn't have such reservations. He explains. She accuses. He falls into a stupor over this event. She leaves without a slightest hesitation.

He's a savior. She's...the savior's most trusted acolyte. What were her 30 pieces of silver?

I'm surprised she didn't give him a kiss."

 
I am in awe of your assessment. I couldn't agree with your position more. That is precisely the point that the Ashley defenders always gloss over. They blame Shepard, they blame TIM, they blame everybody, but the person who betrayed Shepard. Very well written and I love the imagery.

Odd, I couldn't disagree more.  The only real difference between Ash and Shepard in ME2 is Shepard is working outside Alliance authority, and Ash still answers to them.  She very much thinks human lives are worth protecting.  Otherwise she wouldn't be on Horizon to begin with.  She cares nothing for politics, it's loyalty she values.

I think, (hope?) that Bioware was trying to convey in her the fear that Shepard was being controled or manipulated by Cerberus.  Much like Anderson feared.  But it was executed very, very poorly.  Shepard acting like nothing happened, that coming back from the dead was no big deal.  That asking a loyal Alliance officer to join a Cerberus sponsored project was "just like old times"  

Calling Shepard a traitor definitely crosses a line.  Unless Shep chose every antialien dialogue in ME1 from "it's a big, stupid jellyfish" on, that should not enter her mind.  but fear that Cerberus is feeding Shepard false leads, playing on the Reaper threat, that's a much easier concept to fear for Shepard.

After Horizon, I think Ash dug deeper into teh events around Horizon.  gathered Collector samples, viewed footage, took scans of things, and verified what Shepard told her, and reported as such to Anderson.  There was not enough to confirm Reaper involvement, but it convinced Anderson (and perhaps the rest of the Council) that the Collectors were to blame, not Cerberus.  This of course sets Anderson's mind at ease regarding Shepard.  She then sent an apology email (which really should have been better written and included voice work)

I don't think Ash betrayed Shepard any more than I think Shepard betrayed Ash.  I think it was poor writing, an artificially instigated conflict to keep Ash at arms length while three more hotties get paraded in front of Shepard.  .  It's one example among many in ME2 where the player has to supply the story for the game, because it's simply not portrayed well enough.

[knightnblu]

iakus said - "She cares nothing for politics, it's loyalty she values."
 
I usually find myself 100% in accord with your take on this issue, but here I must also disagree. While I most certainly agree that Ashley and politics do not mix, I don't really see where she values loyalty to the one person to whom she should be cutting some slack.
 
As mentioned previously, it was clear that Anderson no longer trusted Shepard when he met him on the Presidium. However, Anderson still gave Shepard the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because Anderson knew Shepard's character. He knew that if Shepard were working with Cerberus, then there was a good chance that something larger may be going on. On the off chance he was wrong, he kept Shepard out of the loop. Next, we see Ashley's reaction.
 
As soon as she lays eyes on Shepard she is pissed. She gives him an obligatory "hug," but it is clear to Shepard as she embraces him that she is angry. She asks some tentative questions, but nothing too probing and when Shepard mentions that he was brought back by Cerberus, she loses it. She accuses Shepard of treason, she insults his intelligence, and calls him a liar then takes off. Where is her loyalty to the man that she said she loved? Why didn't she give Shepard the same benefit of the doubt that Anderson did?
 
If anything, she would have known Shepard better than Anderson would have. She had an experience with a member of her own family being black balled by the Alliance on supposition and no facts, and she had been intimate with Shepard. That alone is huge.
 
Intimacy brings a higher level of understanding of the partners. It provides an insight and a level of trust that nothing else can and she had the advantage of that and completely ignored it. Of all the people I would have expected to turn on me, I never would have included Ashley in that list. After Horizon, my eyes are opened and I don't like what I saw.
 
If Ashley values loyalty so highly, then what happened with Shepard? Like you, I want it to be writers error, but what if it isn't? What if they want to take Ashley in a new and different direction? There are a number of ways that something like this could benefit the story, but it will sure make a lot of folks furious if they do.
 
Where RPGs are concerned, all bets are off. If you have ever played Neverwinter Nights, you know the story of Aribeth. Who's to say that something similar isn't in store for Ashley in ME3 and Horizon was just the prelude? The truth of the matter is that none of us know what is going to happen and that leaves the jury still out on whether Horizon happened with a purpose in mind or was just a writing foul up.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

iakus said - "She cares nothing for politics, it's loyalty she values."
 
I usually find myself 100% in accord with your take on this issue, but here I must also disagree. While I most certainly agree that Ashley and politics do not mix, I don't really see where she values loyalty to the one person to whom she should be cutting some slack.
 
As mentioned previously, it was clear that Anderson no longer trusted Shepard when he met him on the Presidium. However, Anderson still gave Shepard the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because Anderson knew Shepard's character. He knew that if Shepard were working with Cerberus, then there was a good chance that something larger may be going on. On the off chance he was wrong, he kept Shepard out of the loop. Next, we see Ashley's reaction.
 
As soon as she lays eyes on Shepard she is pissed. She gives him an obligatory "hug," but it is clear to Shepard as she embraces him that she is angry. She asks some tentative questions, but nothing too probing and when Shepard mentions that he was brought back by Cerberus, she loses it. She accuses Shepard of treason, she insults his intelligence, and calls him a liar then takes off. Where is her loyalty to the man that she said she loved? Why didn't she give Shepard the same benefit of the doubt that Anderson did?
 
If anything, she would have known Shepard better than Anderson would have. She had an experience with a member of her own family being black balled by the Alliance on supposition and no facts, and she had been intimate with Shepard. That alone is huge.
 
Intimacy brings a higher level of understanding of the partners. It provides an insight and a level of trust that nothing else can and she had the advantage of that and completely ignored it. Of all the people I would have expected to turn on me, I never would have included Ashley in that list. After Horizon, my eyes are opened and I don't like what I saw.
 
If Ashley values loyalty so highly, then what happened with Shepard? Like you, I want it to be writers error, but what if it isn't? What if they want to take Ashley in a new and different direction? There are a number of ways that something like this could benefit the story, but it will sure make a lot of folks furious if they do.
 
Where RPGs are concerned, all bets are off. If you have ever played Neverwinter Nights, you know the story of Aribeth. Who's to say that something similar isn't in store for Ashley in ME3 and Horizon was just the prelude? The truth of the matter is that none of us know what is going to happen and that leaves the jury still out on whether Horizon happened with a purpose in mind or was just a writing foul up.

Ah, but you aren't seeing thngs from Ash's point of view.  For all the feelings she may have for Shepard, the facts remain that:

Shepard had disappeared for two years (and presumably died)
There were rumors (of unknown type) that Shep faked his death and was working for Cerberus
Shepard does show up working with Cerberus.

Now, given their past, it would only be fair that Shep gave an account of what was actually going on, and to set the record straight.  This definitely doesn't happen.  But Ash does have some cause to doubt Shepard.  TIM could be lying to him (and is in some cases) and could be using Shepard for an ulterior motive (which by the end is also the case)  In that sense, it's totally understandable that she doubts Shepard.

The situation goes too far in Ash accusing Shepard of betrayal.  No doubt about that.  She should have realized that Shep at least believed he was doing the right thing.  That his loyalty to the Alliance is intact.  That was just plain bad writing, especially given her report ultimately confirmed Shep's story to Anderson

I played NWN, and if they do to her what was done to Aribeth, I will rage.  THough at this point, it could explain her bizarre makeover.  I'm pretty worried now...