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[Iakus]

laecraft wrote...

iakus wrote...

Odd, I couldn't disagree more.  The only real difference between Ash and Shepard in ME2 is Shepard is working outside Alliance authority, and Ash still answers to them.  She very much thinks human lives are worth protecting.  Otherwise she wouldn't be on Horizon to begin with.  She cares nothing for politics, it's loyalty she values.

Ashley is facing a choice:

1. Join Shepard and Cerberus, and help save human lives.

2. Don't join, and do essentially nothing, because the Alliance cannot freely operate in Terminus Systems.

On one side is humanity - no matter the governments or space boundaries. On the other side is a political interstellar organization.

Imagine that after everything Shepard has seen and learned, he still refuses to work with Cerberus to save human lives. He sits on Omega, drinking booze, and listening to reports of human colonies disappearing.

This is essentially what Ashley chose. She's Shepard's evil twin from the alternative dimension, the one who refused to help humans. She's the very opposite of him.

That choice is too binary.  She took the third choice.  Help the Alliance with their missing colonies.  She refused to go with Shepard, which totally makes sense for a serving member of the Systems Alliance marines.  That Shepard actually has the option to invite her along is one of the more faacepalm-worthy lines.  That she essentially calls Shepard a traitor for working with them is over the line, I won't debate that.  But look at what she apparantly did in the meantime:  (I say apparantly because we don't actually see it, but it's described later)

She does her own investigation of Horizon, which confirms everything Shepard said, save Reaper involvement.  This definitely puts Anderson's mind at ease.  And according to Arrival, spurs the Alliance to take action.  They were evacuating smaller colonies, and beefing up security around the larger ones.  

I can totally get her concern that Cerberus was lying to Shepard or using him.  I had that thought to.  What I object to is her calling Shepard's loyalty into question when she has little reason to doubt it.

[knightnblu]

I still think that there is something more coming in the pipeline of events. I hear your arguments, but cannot help thinking that Anderson, who knew Shepard far less than Ashley did, could give him the benefit of the doubt where Ashley could not. It would have been nice if Ash could have come with me, but I didn't expect that. She was still attached to the Alliance and had to respond to their orders. But I also never expected her to hang me out to dry.
 
Anderson, who was your former CO and only knew Shepard for a short time, did more for you than your lover did. That is incredible. It is jaw dropping. It is astonishing. Sorry for the long string of descriptors, but I have always wanted to do that .
 
I have the feeling that Ashley is indexing us for a betrayal which is why I mentioned Aribeth in an earlier post. I had heard rumors that one of our former compatriots would betray us in ME3 and I'm thinking it's going to be the VS. Tali and Garrus could trust Shepard despite their mistrust of Cerberus, but Ashley and Kaidan can't? Anderson could provide Shepard with the benefit of the doubt, but Ashley hangs Shep out to dry. That's definitely fishy. Sure, they sent an email apology, but so what? That doesn't mean that you can count on them anymore. Their motivations are now in question.
 
Shepard died. He has been absent from the events of the galaxy for two solid years in the keeping of Cerberus. Did Ash find a new lover? Did she change her views? Did she come across something in the intervening years that caused her to become indoctrinated like Amanda Kenson and her team? After all, it isn't clear if Ashley was as up on indoctrination as Shepard was. She was absent from the encounter with Thanoptis and Sovereign, remember? She never saw the indoctrinated Salarians and perhaps wouldn't be as cautious around a reaper artifact as Shepard would. Kenson certainly wasn't and she even protested Shepard's admonition. Two years is a long time and of the ME1 and ME2 LIs, she is the only one that deep sixed you at a critical moment. Those are concepts that may be uncomfortable, but how many people are ever comfortable with betrayal?
 
I'm just sayin'...

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

I still think that there is something more coming in the pipeline of events. I hear your arguments, but cannot help thinking that Anderson, who knew Shepard far less than Ashley did, could give him the benefit of the doubt where Ashley could not. It would have been nice if Ash could have come with me, but I didn't expect that. She was still attached to the Alliance and had to respond to their orders. But I also never expected her to hang me out to dry.

Anderson believed you about Sovereign.  I don't recall him commenting on the Collectors at all until after you return from Horizon.  Only calling the Council on going too far in calling Shepard's association with Cerberus treasonous.
 

Anderson, who was your former CO and only knew Shepard for a short time, did more for you than your lover did. That is incredible. It is jaw dropping. It is astonishing. Sorry for the long string of descriptors, but I have always wanted to do that .

Anderson was also in a position to help more.  Ash in fact, answered to Anderson.
 

I have the feeling that Ashley is indexing us for a betrayal which is why I mentioned Aribeth in an earlier post. I had heard rumors that one of our former compatriots would betray us in ME3 and I'm thinking it's going to be the VS. Tali and Garrus could trust Shepard despite their mistrust of Cerberus, but Ashley and Kaidan can't? Anderson could provide Shepard with the benefit of the doubt, but Ashley hangs Shep out to dry. That's definitely fishy. Sure, they sent an email apology, but so what? That doesn't mean that you can count on them anymore. Their motivations are now in question.

I hadn't heard that, just that if you p*ss off companions too much they may abandon or turn on you.  I can see there being trust issues between Shepard and Ash after the words exchanged on Horizon.  But I still feel it was a completely artificial conflict.  Why did she use the word "betray?"  and doubt Shepard's loyalty?  The rest I can more or less understand..  Heck, the rest is not too far off what Anderson says to Shepard. Less delicately phrased of course, but that's just Ash.
 

Shepard died. He has been absent from the events of the galaxy for two solid years in the keeping of Cerberus. Did Ash find a new lover? Did she change her views? Did she come across something in the intervening years that caused her to become indoctrinated like Amanda Kenson and her team? After all, it isn't clear if Ashley was as up on indoctrination as Shepard was. She was absent from the encounter with Thanoptis and Sovereign, remember? She never saw the indoctrinated Salarians and perhaps wouldn't be as cautious around a reaper artifact as Shepard would. Kenson certainly wasn't and she even protested Shepard's admonition. Two years is a long time and of the ME1 and ME2 LIs, she is the only one that deep sixed you at a critical moment. Those are concepts that may be uncomfortable, but how many people are ever comfortable with betrayal?
 
I'm just sayin'...

All good questions.  I doubt the indoctrination though.  Ash should know about the risks of that .  Plus Anderson and others who worked closely with her would have noticed something odd (unless wearing slinky blue outfits with white garters counts...uh oh...)  Even if Ash didn't  come in direct contact with indoctrinated individuals, she'd still be aware of Shepard's reports on them.


I still hold that Ash post-Horizon got over herself and did what she could to help Shepard.  I just wish more of that was front and center for us to see.  I also think there's more going on with the rumors than we were told.  The salarian Councillor called some of the rumors they'd heard of Shepard's return "disturbing" I wonder if that was hyperbole or literal?

[Iakus]

laecraft wrote...

The Alliance's measures are insufficient and ineffective. Evacuating the colonies is too slow. Strengthening security would do nothing against the seeker swarms, and Ashley didn't even ask Shepard how he counter-measured them. She's offered an option to make a real difference, but doesn't take it. Nothing can convince me that she cares about humans after that.

Shepard can't be everywhere at once.  Evacuating and beefing up security is not much, but it's something.  And it was Ash who got the ball rolling.

Seeker swarms:  Yesh it was silly of Ash to not ask about the countermeasures, isn't it?  ALmost as silly as Shepard not offering it, huh?  

If she's that worried that Cerberus would do something - what, exactly? - to Shepard, why not stay with him and make sure it doesn't happen? If she cares about him at all. And especially if she worries that much about all those people who MIGHT be killed because Cerberus MIGHT force Shepard to press the trigger. Never mind all those people who WILL be killed for certain if nothing is done to stop the unknown aggressor.

She was worried that Cerberus might be using the Reaper threat as a way to control Shepard.  That Cerberus was in fact behind the disappearances.  Her investigatiopn proved that it was in fact the Collectors.  She can't go with him because she's still active Alliance.  What's the problem?

If she can offer neither her dedication to humanity, nor her personal loyalty to me, then she's useless to me. I'm crossing her out of the list of potential assets and writing her down as a liability.

She's loyal to the Alliance.  To humanity as a whole.  Shepard's already got a dozen bad****es kissing his feet because he solved their problems for them.  She did what she could to get the Alliance involved in the Collector threat, and while not wholly successful, succeeded beyond the scope of anyone else who tried, including the human Councilor.  It's not as sexy as being the Shadow Broker or a krogan clan leader, but she's doing her part.

[Made Nightwing]

@laecraft, if that's you're attitude, then you're screwed. If you can't work with a character that wants to be on your side, how are you going to work with people like Aria, the Quarian Admiralty and the Geth? People that you are going to have to convince to work with you.

[who would know]

No, I was enjoying this conversation! I'm pretty sure Bioware reads these forums.

[knightnblu]

iakus said - "Anderson believed you about Sovereign. I don't recall him commenting on the Collectors at all until after you return from Horizon. Only calling the Council on going too far in calling Shepard's association with Cerberus treasonous."
 
It is clear that Anderson no longer trusts you, but neither does he call you a traitor to your face, question your intelligence, or call you a liar. Those are personal attacks that Williams resorts to, not Anderson. Further, Anderson refuses to allow the Council to railroad you with treason charges because he doesn't believe that Shepard is a traitor.
 
At worst, Anderson may believe that you are misguided or under the influence of Cerberus due to their manipulations. But he would never believe you would outright betray the Alliance, Council, and himself by your own volition. But Ashley does.
 
Because Councilor Anderson no longer trusts you, he will not provide sensitive information that may get back to Cerberus. That is a reasonable stance. Ashley just cuts you off like a gangrenous limb. True, they are both different people, but where is it written that because Ashley is hardened combat veteran, she is also a b!@#h? Isn't Anderson also a combat hardened spec ops troop? Why doesn't he take a similar tack as Williams?
 
I believe it to be a strong point.
 
"The salarian Councillor called some of the rumors they'd heard of Shepard's return "disturbing" I wonder if that was hyperbole or literal?"
 
I am certain that it was literal. TIM would have made sure that the rumors circulating about Shepard would worry the Council and undermine their faith in him. In fact, TIM is the lynchpin for the entire ME2 story, but most of his machinations are behind the scenes and done in secret.
 
On the few occasions that you do catch him in his dirty business, he just blows you off. Make no mistake, ME3 will show you just how sick and twisted he really is.
 
laecraft said - "I need the quarians and the geth for the war. I don't need Ashley. She's just a grunt. She's not worth the effort. In fact, I can tell that it's going to be TOO much effort, because she already refused to work with you when the fate of the galaxy was at stake. Think you can manage better now that you're the Butcher of Bahak?
 
And that will tell the tale. If Ashley thought that you had lost your mind to work with Cerberus, what is she going to think about you murdering 304K+ men, women, and children? Somehow, I doubt she will revert to being your biggest supporter again. She already thinks that you may be a sociopath, Bahak just confirms it for her. I think that Williams is just an ace away from saying, "I never knew you."
 
Oh sure, you could argue that she would see it your way when the facts come out, but if she wouldn't hear them on Horizon what makes you think that she will hear them after experiencing the horror of hearing about the murder of innocent children? Who knows, maybe Shepard will get to send his own tepid email apology in ME3.
 
"To summarize: she's a common grunt, easily replacable. Her only purpose is to shoot things. Replace her with someone who's utterly loyal to you, will follow your every order, thinks you're a savior, and will never doubt you. That's what I'm looking for in a soldier during an all-out war. I can't have someone under my command who doubts my every move.

If you want someone "independent", who questions you, hates you, turned her back on you, thinks you're a traitor, et cetera, then you're just courting disaster. Wait till the war is over before indulging your preferences, so that it won't endanger the rest of the galaxy. Shepard's got responsibilities, he can't afford such risks for nothing but a grunt."
 
That's my position as well. It is clear from Horizon that I no longer know Williams. She is an unknown quantity whose aims are unclear. While there are those who state that her goal is the protection and defense of humanity, that is pure speculation at this point because her motives are now questionable.
 
No commander wants automatons working for him. They want a soldier that uses their head, but they also want loyalty when push comes to shove and Ashley breached that trust on Horizon when she lost her self control. If I am about to do something stupid and get people killed for no apparent reason, then I want my subordinates to tell me so. But if, after being so informed, I affirm the order then I damn well expect them to carry it out.
 
This is because I might have information that they don't have that makes such an order a necessity. I might not have the time to explain it to them because the issue is time sensitive. That is combat. It is a hard, cruel, dangerous and lethal environment and sitting on the battlefield having a back and forth over a time sensitive and crucial order is ridiculous and oftentimes deadly. This is why trust is critical to a combat unit.
 
If the officer cannot trust his men or the men cannot trust their CO, then you have a unit that is ineffective and casualties will be high. This is because trust is a two way street and because trust must be earned. That is why I don't even want Williams on my ship. That is why I don't believe that she is ready to join the Officer Corps, and that is why there is such consternation over Horizon by those who know better.
 
Ashley is indeed a wild card because her motivations and actions can no longer be anticipated. How do I know that she will follow any order I give her? If I give her an order that seems questionable and she calls me on it and I affirm it, how will she react? I can't take that chance. Not with all that is riding on ME3. I need people I can trust and that trust me. Ashley is no longer a member of that group.
 
jreezy said - "Ashley betrayed you? When did this happen because I missed that part."
 
When she called me a traitor to my face, when she insulted my intelligence, and when she called me a liar. While I can't speak for others, such things breach the trust of intimates and most especially between a CO and a subordinate. Ashley was an NCO and Shepard was a Commander. Williams abandons all military courtesy and protocol to do so. These are major breaches of trust. Thus, Ashley betrayed Shepard on Horizon.
 
This is why I keep harping on why Anderson never withdrew his personal support of Shepard, but Williams did. And she did so without even a second thought apparently. Those must have been some rumors, because she evidently believed them more than the man she claimed to love, respect, and follow.

[alperez]

Damn i post and then get so tied up with work that it takes me 3 days to get back online.

Some people posting here seem to be taking what Ash did on horizon as an almost personal affront to them, that her actions cannot be explained away rationally and that she should be forever doomed because of them.

This attitude completely amazes me and forces me to wonder just how fragile some peoples ego's are, since despite the reasoning behind Ash's stance being completely correct, they refuse to see her actions as anything other than a betrayal of Shepard, it almost seems as if they expect blind loyalty regardless of the situation.

Forgetting the fact that as an alliance soldier on an alliance mission for ash to abandon that mission and just blindly follow shepard would indeed be an act of treason, they also seem to be able to dismiss Ash's emotional state as irrelevant and shepard's postion as one which doesn't raise concerns.

So i'm once again going to try and explain what i believe was the intent on horizon and why i interpret Ash's actions differently then some do.

Firstly a romanced Ash who has spent 2 years trying to come to terms with the death of her lover suddenly being presented with the notion that Shepard is alive and standing in front of her. While this may have been something she dreamed about, the very situation would send a normal person's emotions into overdrive.

You believe the person you love died, you grieve for that person, suffer through the emotional impact of the event and finally reach a place where you can deal with it, only to find that they are alive and have been for some time (yes its only a small amount of time before shepard makes it to horizon) but time has passed since the resurrection and the reunion.

So your faced with the person you loved who because of their actions and how they died has probably evolved into an even more idealistic person in your eyes and your then hit with what seem to be certain discrepancies in what you believed that person to be and the man in front of you now.

Is the shepard in front of you, the man you once knew and does that man feel the same way about you that you believed he did are just 2 of the many questions that must be rolling around in your head.

So you look for answers and are presented with what seems to be clear evidence that what you believed shepard stood for and what you believed shepard felt about you may in fact not entirely be accurate.

He was resurrected but rather than seek you out right away, he decided to do other things first (yes its because the game is doesn't allow you any choice but that still doesn't change the facts as Ash would see them), not only that but for some reason he's now working with/for people regarded as terrorists. When pressed on both of these things, he responds arrogantly or completely blows them off as if they were inconsequential details.

Secondly a non romanced Ash, is pretty much faced with the same situation, a man she looked up to, someone she greatly admired who made the ultimate sacrifice while making sure she survived dies only to be resurrected 2 years later.

Over those 2 years Ash has risen through the ranks, something that Shepard's actions allowed to happen, she's no doubt felt survivors guilt and this guilt would be even more extreme simply because of exactly what Shepard did and stood for.

She's then faced with the return of shepard, however certain things have changed. Shepard may not be the man she once knew, certainly the company he keeps is different, so is this man, this hero all she once believed him to be, does he still stand for everything she once believed in completely or has he changed into someone she no longer recognizes.

When she presses Shepard the responses given certainly seem to indicate this may be the case, Shepard is arrogant or flippant, he dismisses her concerns as one would dismiss the claims of a silly little child.

So the questions i'll put to those who seem unable to accept or forgive Ash's actions on horizon are these.

Faced with the same situation, given the same explanations, would you just blindly follow Shepard and his new friends simply on faith?

Would you abandon your mission, turn you back on the alliance and Anderson, throw you lot in with terrorists, simply on the say so of someone you may not actually know anymore?

If your honest with yourselves then the answer would be a resounding no, yet rather than admit it, instead you expect Ash to just blindly say yes. Emotions play a large part in what a romanced or non romanced Ash does and says on horizon, yet people seem to think that she should dismiss her emotions and blindly accept that the Shepard in front of her really is the same Shepard she went to hell and back with.

Emotionally there is no way Ash can just accept Shepard's ressurrection and blindly follow Shepard's path but worse than that logically Shepard gives her absolutely no reason to.

People dismiss her concerns so easily, they dismiss her apology because its not a cowering acceptance that Shepard is right and true, yet the one thing that is completely clear on horizon is that Shepard gives absolutely no reason or justification for Ash to take any other stance.

He does not address her concerns emotionally or logically, he does not unlike with Tali or Garrus address working with/for cerberus as something he is doing reluctantly or even explain the reasoning behind why he's doing so in a way which makes sense.

There are leaps of faith and leaps of faith and i'm sorry the one people seem to think Ash should take is not one which they themselves would make in the same situation.

[alperez]

I decided to put this in a second post simply because my first was way too long.

One other small point people bring up is either Anderson, Tali or Garrus and how they react differently than Ash does.

Anderson doesn't take his support away is something Knight in particular has an issue with, While this is true something else also is true, Anderson doesn't really have an emotional bond with Shepard. He also is more aware of Shepard's situation and the full facts of what's going on than Ash (her military postion would be a need to know one) would be. So imo its unfair to compare the two reactions for both these reasons.

Tali, shepards arrival on freedoms progress allows her to complete her mission, On haelstrom shepard once again saves her life. In both of these events and in the aftermath Shepard is given the chance to explain why working with cerberus may be a reluctant situation. But even without these 2 things there is also something else we learn about Tali's character in me2, the crush she has on Shepard.

Whether you romance her or not during me2, Haelstrom shows how Tali feels about Shepard, those little recordings she makes that you can listen to as you work towards her rescue show this clearly. So compared to Ash's emotional state on horizon, Talis is completely different, she is hopeful, Ash at best is worried. Not to mention that during the time you first meet Tali on freedoms progress and the time you remeet her on Haelstrom she continues on her mission, completes it and has had time to absorb the fact of Shepard's return.

Garrus while emotional is also much more practical than either Tali or Ash, the reunion between Shepard and Garrus is also fortuitous for Garrus. Shepard basically saves Garrus's life for the first time, something that Garrus as a proud Turian would feel obligation for. But even after this Shepard as with Tali gets to express what working with cerberus means, why this may be the only course of action available to Shepard and why it may be a reluctant marriage of convieniance, something clearly missing in the encounter with Ash.

Garrus also is a pretty goal orientated person, he acheived most of his success while under Shepard's tutelage and considering the failure he's trying to recover from, there could be another explanation why he joins up so readily.

Simply put a confidence one, after the failure on Omega, working with Shepard is a way for Garrus to regain his own confidence in his abilities, it gives him an opportunity to do something that benefits not just himself but others also.

In a way i see a little bit of the gunfighter who lost his nerve in the magnificent seven in garrus, although the nerve isn't gone in garrus's case, the confidence may be.

So when comparing how Ash responds on horizon to how others have responded, the only thing that is in fact the same is that the option to join up is present, the situations though are completely different.

[V-rex]

Out of curiosity knightnblu, judging by your posts I feel obligated to ask one question:
Do you actually think it's possible for Ashley to redeem herself for Horizon?

I mean on a personal level, I have forgiven Ashley a long time ago. She remains my favorite character in Mass Effect and my preferred love interest (partly because every other female love interest with the exception of Jack make me want to spew bile) throughout the whole series. I've allowed myself to believe that the email, while small, was enough. And that she was doubtlessly in a very emotional state and not thinking clearly, hence I don't want to judge her for her actions.
All stuff that I've mentioned before that on my own subjective viewpoint are the reasons why Ashley has no reason to fear hostilty from me.

I would actually debate this issue with you, but given that you are very much set in stone on your end of the spectrum and I am on mine and I don't feel like debating this topic until the end of time and the universe. So a debate is NOT (repeat NOT) what I am aiming to achieve in making this post.

Merely to ask you on a personal level if you think it is possible for Ashley to redeem herself in your eyes, and if so what would it take?
A heartfelt bearing of her soul to you in front of everyone? A courageous self sacrificingly noble action? Her doing something completely selfless in the name of the greater good?

I guess what I'm saying is, are you completely and utterly closed to the idea of Ashley ever being able to truly make up for Horizon or do you think that there might still be a chance, no matter how small, of her being able to make amends?

Modifié par V-rex, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:16 .

[Valtauran]

I honestly do not know what will happen in ME3, but my male shep romanced ashley and was loyal in ME2, i personally would understand if she started seeing someone during that 2 years i was reportedly dead, no one in their right mind would be angry at Ashley for moving on when she mourned over shepards death for 2 years.

I am hoping though that the romance can resume in ME3, it was surely hinted for female shepard and Liara romance in ME2, where you technically make a deal to come back alive if she is there to come back to and you use your hands on her weak spot. (its either her weak spot or an Asari weak spot).

If after that, you end up single because of some stupid reason, i will be MAJORLY peed off at Bioware.

[Iakus]

[quote]knightnblu wrote...

iakus said - "Anderson believed you about Sovereign. I don't recall him commenting on the Collectors at all until after you return from Horizon. Only calling the Council on going too far in calling Shepard's association with Cerberus treasonous."
 
[/quote]It is clear that Anderson no longer trusts you, but neither does he call you a traitor to your face, question your intelligence, or call you a liar. Those are personal attacks that Williams resorts to, not Anderson. Further, Anderson refuses to allow the Council to railroad you with treason charges because he doesn't believe that Shepard is a traitor.
 
At worst, Anderson may believe that you are misguided or under the influence of Cerberus due to their manipulations. But he would never believe you would outright betray the Alliance, Council, and himself by your own volition. But Ashley does.
 
Because Councilor Anderson no longer trusts you, he will not provide sensitive information that may get back to Cerberus. That is a reasonable stance. Ashley just cuts you off like a gangrenous limb. True, they are both different people, but where is it written that because Ashley is hardened combat veteran, she is also a b!@#h? Isn't Anderson also a combat hardened spec ops troop? Why doesn't he take a similar tack as Williams?[/quote]

And calling Shepard a traitor is the only real difference between Ash and Anderson's reactions.  Well, that and Ash's temper, but that's part of her charm.  And I suspect this goes back to the rumors being spread about Shep.  It's the only thing that makes sense.  Something went around that disturbed the Council, shook Anderson's faith in Shepard, and caused Ash to freak out when she heard Shepard had been in Cerberus' care for the last two years.  

[quote]
I am certain that it was literal. TIM would have made sure that the rumors circulating about Shepard would worry the Council and undermine their faith in him. In fact, TIM is the lynchpin for the entire ME2 story, but most of his machinations are behind the scenes and done in secret.
 
On the few occasions that you do catch him in his dirty business, he just blows you off. Make no mistake, ME3 will show you just how sick and twisted he really is.[/quote]

Heck I knew that about TIM in ME1, before I even knew there was an Illusive Man 

As it stands, I'd like to believe that this is a case of Ash being manipulated right along with everyone else.  She's heard something absoutely devastating about Shepard that's either incorrect or totally out of context.  And the fact that Shepard is on Horizon on Cerberus' behalf somehow "confirmed" this rumor.

It's gonna take some seriously awesome writing to make that make sense and not be reduced to some slapdash soap opera-y plotline.  But I'm not gonna blame Ash for poor writing.
 
[quote]
And that will tell the tale. If Ashley thought that you had lost your mind to work with Cerberus, what is she going to think about you murdering 304K+ men, women, and children? Somehow, I doubt she will revert to being your biggest supporter again. She already thinks that you may be a sociopath, Bahak just confirms it for her. I think that Williams is just an ace away from saying, "I never knew you."[/quote]

Actually, the Arrival incident would have been a great plot point to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  I mean, she wasn't there, maybe Shepard finally went too far, the Reaper obsession became too much and he cracked?  Can true love overcome mass murder?
 

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
"To summarize: she's a common grunt, easily replacable. Her only purpose is to shoot things. Replace her with someone who's utterly loyal to you, will follow your every order, thinks you're a savior, and will never doubt you. That's what I'm looking for in a soldier during an all-out war. I can't have someone under my command who doubts my every move.

If you want someone "independent", who questions you, hates you, turned her back on you, thinks you're a traitor, et cetera, then you're just courting disaster. Wait till the war is over before indulging your preferences, so that it won't endanger the rest of the galaxy. Shepard's got responsibilities, he can't afford such risks for nothing but a grunt."
 
That's my position as well. It is clear from Horizon that I no longer know Williams. She is an unknown quantity whose aims are unclear. While there are those who state that her goal is the protection and defense of humanity, that is pure speculation at this point because her motives are now questionable.
 
No commander wants automatons working for him. They want a soldier that uses their head, but they also want loyalty when push comes to shove and Ashley breached that trust on Horizon when she lost her self control. If I am about to do something stupid and get people killed for no apparent reason, then I want my subordinates to tell me so. But if, after being so informed, I affirm the order then I damn well expect them to carry it out.
 
This is because I might have information that they don't have that makes such an order a necessity. I might not have the time to explain it to them because the issue is time sensitive. That is combat. It is a hard, cruel, dangerous and lethal environment and sitting on the battlefield having a back and forth over a time sensitive and crucial order is ridiculous and oftentimes deadly. This is why trust is critical to a combat unit.
 
If the officer cannot trust his men or the men cannot trust their CO, then you have a unit that is ineffective and casualties will be high. This is because trust is a two way street and because trust must be earned. That is why I don't even want Williams on my ship. That is why I don't believe that she is ready to join the Officer Corps, and that is why there is such consternation over Horizon by those who know better.
 
Ashley is indeed a wild card because her motivations and actions can no longer be anticipated. How do I know that she will follow any order I give her? If I give her an order that seems questionable and she calls me on it and I affirm it, how will she react? I can't take that chance. Not with all that is riding on ME3. I need people I can trust and that trust me. Ashley is no longer a member of that group.

Ash's loyalties have not changed.  She's loyal to Earth and the Alliance.  And at the moment, answers to General/Councilor Anderson.  She believes (erroneously) that you have betrayed that loyalty.  She should know better, given our past experiences in ME1.  Which is why I'm really curious about what rumors were spread that would make her doubt that.

 Her faith in Shepard was shaken, but the investigation on Horizon seems to have somewhat alleviated that.  I'd call that "using her head" She examined the evidence, and came to the conclusion that Shepard and Cerberus are innocent.

I think that Ash wasn't operating with all the facts on Horizon.  I think at this point it's Shepard who's  lacking in facts now.  We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash.


 

jreezy said - "Ashley betrayed you? When did this happen because I missed that part."
 
When she called me a traitor to my face, when she insulted my intelligence, and when she called me a liar. While I can't speak for others, such things breach the trust of intimates and most especially between a CO and a subordinate. Ashley was an NCO and Shepard was a Commander. Williams abandons all military courtesy and protocol to do so. These are major breaches of trust. Thus, Ashley betrayed Shepard on Horizon.
 
This is why I keep harping on why Anderson never withdrew his personal support of Shepard, but Williams did. And she did so without even a second thought apparently. Those must have been some rumors, because she evidently believed them more than the man she claimed to love, respect, and follow.

Calling Shepard a traitor was over the line.  Unless those rumors were truly vicious, I can't imagine what would have justified that.  Given Ash's family is military going back several generations, you have to wonder what would make her breach that courtesy?  I mean, even if Shep is technically a civilian now, and not her CO, they do have a history.  Like I said, we're operating without all the facts here.  A loose end that should have been taken care of before now.

[ladyvader]

jreezy wrote...

iakus wrote...
We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash.

We  sure did. When Arrival was announced I assumed that it was a DLC involving Ashley. 

But they couldn't do just an Ash DLC when many people don't have her in ME2 . Same would be true with a Kaidan only DLC.  It wouldn't work.   It would have to be VS DLC.  We really don't need Ash/Kaidan being the same person.  Do we?

[Iakus]

ladyvader wrote...

jreezy wrote...

iakus wrote...
We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash.

We  sure did. When Arrival was announced I assumed that it was a DLC involving Ashley. 

But they couldn't do just an Ash DLC when many people don't have her in ME2 . Same would be true with a Kaidan only DLC.  It wouldn't work.   It would have to be VS DLC.  We really don't need Ash/Kaidan being the same person.  Do we?

I'd hav ebeen perfectly happy with VS dlc, provided that they weren't essentially the same person (like they were on Horizon)  Just something to explain why Ash felt the need to call Shepard a traitor and act with such hostility.

I mean we go to learn why Liara was so cold and obsessed, right?

[ladyvader]

jreezy wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

jreezy wrote...

iakus wrote...
We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash.

We  sure did. When Arrival was announced I assumed that it was a DLC involving Ashley. 

But they couldn't do just an Ash DLC when many people don't have her in ME2 . Same would be true with a Kaidan only DLC.  It wouldn't work.   It would have to be VS DLC.  We really don't need Ash/Kaidan being the same person.  Do we?

We sure don't. Which is why I hate how Kaidan reacts on Horizon. He reacts too much like how I expect Ashley to.

I know.  Ash seems more hot headed while Kaidan seems more level headed.  But they both were hot headed on Horizon with Shepard.  Even if you had Garrus with you.