1035 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyvader]

iakus wrote...

ladyvader wrote...

jreezy wrote...

iakus wrote...
We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash.

We  sure did. When Arrival was announced I assumed that it was a DLC involving Ashley. 

But they couldn't do just an Ash DLC when many people don't have her in ME2 . Same would be true with a Kaidan only DLC.  It wouldn't work.   It would have to be VS DLC.  We really don't need Ash/Kaidan being the same person.  Do we?

I'd hav ebeen perfectly happy with VS dlc, provided that they weren't essentially the same person (like they were on Horizon)  Just something to explain why Ash felt the need to call Shepard a traitor and act with such hostility.

I mean we go to learn why Liara was so cold and obsessed, right?

Very very true.  I think it was a Mac Walters tweet, but it seems that we will find out why they acted the way they did on Horizon during the game where they cleared up Liara's issues with the DLC.  Maybe that was the plan all along.  Who knows.

[Iakus]

[quote]ladyvader wrote...

[/quote]Very very true.  I think it was a Mac Walters tweet, but it seems that we will find out why they acted the way they did on Horizon during the game where they cleared up Liara's issues with the DLC.  Maybe that was the plan all along.  Who knows.
[/quote]

I hope that's the case, and I welcome an explanation to justify my faith in Ash.  But it's still ridiculous to have to wait all this time.  

I understand Ash and Kaidan aren't exactly the most popular characters in the series, but come on!  They do still have fans who feel majorly slighted by this!

[Nashiktal]

Aside from all that, how did they think fans were going to feel with such a sudden change to her? We have nothing to go on, nothing to indicate why (and we won't till ME3) and it plays into the "sexification" of the crew that was so terrible in ME2.

[spirosz]

The thing I love about the Horizon scene is the emotional response we get from the VS. To me, it portrays how sometimes people will go off their instincts or their emotions, instead of thinking about how they want to respond and not taking in the other perspectives. I actually agree with the VS's initial argument, but because of how the scene was portrayed, we weren't able to remind Ashley that for Shep, because of what happened, to him it seemed like it was just the next day, while for her it was 2 years. So initialy, I understand why Ash or Kaidan was mad, but I wish we could of had better dialogue choices, to make them realize Shepard side's better. There's that whole different mind state between the two because of Shepard's death and the time frame, but overall I'm glad the VS will be in ME3. I'm also really curious as to the reaction we can get in ME3 because of the scene/emails.

Sorry if this is off-topic, I just felt like bringing it up.

Modifié par spiros9110, 16 septembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[alperez]

Spiros raises some interesting points regarding horizon, its the emotional aspect of the responses of both Ash and Kaiden that really sets the whole tone of the encounter.

What some people don't take into account though in their condemnation of Ash's stance is the bad writing of the scene itself, which is partly why i can forgive it that much more easily.

Bioware attempted not just to kill 2 birds with one stone in the encounter with the Vs but actually 4 birds. The intent is really there to show a romanced and non romanced VS with the minimum effort in creating the scene, so rather than get four different versions depending on who we're speaking to and whether or not they were romanced, we get a mish mash that works badly.

The emotional aspect of a romanced Ash or a non romanced one is diluted because its pretty much the exact same dialogue, in essence rather than create different dialogues based on romance or not or even which character your speaking to, which is where a lot of the problems come from, well that and shepards idiotic responses.

But one aspect that never gets mentioned is that unlike the rest of the characters from me1 that you interact with, Ash/Kaiden are still alliance military and as such are restricted in what they can do because of it.

In terms of the Traitor line that people seem to have a problem with, the simple truth is that regardless of the rumours that may have been spread about Shepard, simply working with cerberus is practically a traitorous act.

The council practically accuse you of it, anderson does step in at this point but it doesn't diminish the fact that working with cerberus borders on treason, which is in essence the definition of a traitorous act.

So a highly emotional Ash on horizon accuses shepard of being a traitor, something the council practically do, the difference is what exactly?

Ash shouldn't say so because she knows Shepard or Ash is completely incorrect?

[Iakus]

jreezy wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Aside from all that, how did they think fans were going to feel with such a sudden change to her? We have nothing to go on, nothing to indicate why (and we won't till ME3) and it plays into the "sexification" of the crew that was so terrible in ME2.

So BioWare's plan the whole time was to make us give up on Ashley? I knew it! Fortunately, they've failed.

Heck yeah, it was a transparant ploy for them to parade Miranda, Jack, and Tali in front of us.  Glad I wasn't the only one to notice that.

[ubermensch007]

You know one thing I don't get though... Why did BioWare decide to treat the Virmire survivor as they did in Mass Effect 2? All of a sudden today - it occured to me.That if Liara T' Soni is your love interest.When you go to meet her on Illium for the first time.Like the first thing that she and Shep do is "kiss one another"

But Ash and Kai, are cut from a different cloth, it would seem.Liara may have given Shepard to Cerberus.But she like Kaidan and Ashley haven't  seen him  in two years.She doesn't know if he is involved with anyone else, at first.But she doesn't hestitate to show him affection.Why are things so different for Ashley?

Damn Ashley... You got me thinking about that song by The Black Eyed Peas girl...  Where Is The Love?

Modifié par ubermensch007, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:55 .

[Made Nightwing]

@ubermensch007, Ash does show affection initially. She goes and hugs him, the expression on her face is one of somebody who is holding back tears. Then the initial dialogue starts and everything goes to hell.

[Made Nightwing]

@laecraft, I call BS, no offence. Many of the characters have changed beyond recognition. Ash is the only one who stuck with the system, tried to make a difference despite the bureacracy. Much better than if she had just run off to be a vigilante on Omega.

She had the opportunity to betray you completely. She could have told the Council in her report that she suspected Shepard and Cerberus were behind Horizon. She didn't. She confirmed Shepard's story, and lent credibility to his fight against the Collectors.

[knightnblu]

alperez said "Anderson doesn't take his support away is something Knight in particular has an issue with, While this is true something else also is true, Anderson doesn't really have an emotional bond with Shepard. He also is more aware of Shepard's situation and the full facts of what's going on than Ash (her military postion would be a need to know one) would be. So imo its unfair to compare the two reactions for both these reasons."
 
It is not unfair. If anything, Anderson has a lot more to lose than Ashley does. He is a senior member of galactic government and a senior officer of the Alliance. If he is wrong and protects Shepard it could cost him everything and he would be forced to retire in disgrace. Yet, he does not cut himself off from Shepard. Ashley, who said that she loved him, said that he was the only one who made her feel worthy, and broke the curse upon her and her family, did. She should have known him best, but she wouldn't even give the man that she loved the benefit of the doubt. Where was her loyalty to a friend? Where was her loyalty to her love? Where was her loyalty to her former commander?
 
I'm not saying that she should have gone off with him and her orders be damned. But couldn't she at least muster a little moral support? Did she really have to deep six him without having all of the facts? Anderson didn't and he had more to lose.
 
A lot of people blame Shepard for Ashley's malfunction. I don't. I put the blame squarely where it belongs, right on her shoulders. What if Ash had said this instead, "I don't know Shepard. With all the rumors swirling around you, your resurrection from the grave, and working with Cerberus...I just don't know. I have to have time to think about this." Would anyone be raw about that? I wouldn't. That at least makes sense. Slamming the door in my face by calling me a traitor, didn't. In the new dialog Ashley appears to give you the benefit of doubt, on Horizon she is certain.
 
"Tali, shepards arrival on freedoms progress allows her to complete her mission, On haelstrom shepard once again saves her life. In both of these events and in the aftermath Shepard is given the chance to explain why working with cerberus may be a reluctant situation."
 
Tali also has more reason to distrust Cerberus than Ashley does. They attacked and murdered Quarians in the fleet. So far as I am aware, Cerberus never came to Ashley's home and murdered any of her family or friends. The two are nearly alike in their respect, admiration, and love of Shepard. Where they differ is that Tali still trusts Shepard and Ashley does not. Again, one would expect another species to be more wary of Shepard, but it is his own kind that hangs him out to dry. In interesting bit of irony.
 
"So when comparing how Ash responds on horizon to how others have responded, the only thing that is in fact the same is that the option to join up is present, the situations though are completely different."
 
Not at all regarding Williams and Tali. Regarding Garrus, I have to agree with you, but she includes him in her distrust of Shepard as well with, "...Garrus to," and that should have been a clue for her that all was not as it seemed to be. This is why I say that she convicted Shepard in her mind before she even saw him. For Williams, it wasn't a matter of if the rumors were true, but if the conviction were true. That is a major difference and does much to explain Williams' actions on Horizon.
 
V-rex said "I guess what I'm saying is, are you completely and utterly closed to the idea of Ashley ever being able to truly make up for Horizon or do you think that there might still be a chance, no matter how small, of her being able to make amends?"
 
I believe that you ask an important question and I shall do my best to answer it.
 
A part of me wants to make it right with Ashley. She is my favorite character and I like her style. I just don't like the way that she reacted to me on Horizon. While I am glad that you and others can make peace with that, I cannot.
 
Does that mean that my Shepard has cut her off permanently? No. But both Shepard and I are going to need some convincing to make things right between us (which makes sense as I play Shepard with my personality). To my mind, she is the one that poisoned the relationship between us and because of that, she is going to have to fix it if she wants to get back in my good graces.
 
I have had a soft spot for Ashley since ME1 and that has never changed. When I hit the ground on Horizon I had two main objectives: 1. save the colonists and 2. save Ashley. While I was able to save her physically I was unable to do so emotionally, but that matter is between her and her conscience (or that of the writers if you prefer).
 
Truth be told, if they don't write Ashley to repair the damage from Horizon and allow me to boot her off of my ship, she is gone. The only way that she will stay is if she can convince me that I can still trust her. I am not looking to embarrass her or to make her look like a fool in front of others. She and I can have a private conversation where nobody else is involved. I am not looking for her to grovel. I just want to know two things. Why she had that malfunction on Horizon and how can I trust her again. If she can convince me, then we're good. Otherwise she is persona non grata.
 
That's where I stand.
 
iakus said "As it stands, I'd like to believe that this is a case of Ash being manipulated right along with everyone else. She's heard something absoutely devastating about Shepard that's either incorrect or totally out of context. And the fact that Shepard is on Horizon on Cerberus' behalf somehow "confirmed" this rumor."
 
I absolutely agree with you on this. I have no doubt that Williams was indeed manipulated right along with everyone else, Shepard included. But my point remains, she should have had more faith in the man that she loved. She should have known intuitively the truth about him because she would have known his character as I believe that Anderson did. I don't mind a bit of suspicion because I believe that the facts as they appear demand it, but I do mind an outright betrayal by the woman who claimed to have been in love with me. If she doesn't know my character, then how could she ever have loved me?
 
"Actually, the Arrival incident would have been a great plot point to shake Ash's faith in Shepard. I mean, she wasn't there, maybe Shepard finally went too far, the Reaper obsession became too much and he cracked? Can true love overcome mass murder?"
 
A lot of people have been ruminating over that. If Ashley freaked out over Horizon, then she is bound to go nuclear over Bahak. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to be sentenced to execution with Williams at the switch, but for the Reaper invasion.
 
"Her faith in Shepard was shaken, but the investigation on Horizon seems to have somewhat alleviated that. I'd call that "using her head" She examined the evidence, and came to the conclusion that Shepard and Cerberus are innocent.

I think that Ash wasn't operating with all the facts on Horizon. I think at this point it's Shepard who's lacking in facts now. We really needed a LOTSB dlc fro Ash."
 
I looked for one and it never came. It has been months and nothing. So far as I know, we have all of the DLC for ME2 and no more will be released until after the release of ME3. That's why BioWare needs to either fix the situation that they created on Horizon or provide a way for me to assign her to Admiral Hackett or something.
 
spiros9110 said "Sorry if this is off-topic, I just felt like bringing it up."
 
Not at all. You make valid points and ones that I agree with.
 
jreezy said "...Ashley was in the dark as to why Shepard was with Cerberus."
 
Ash wasn't in the dark. She was operating under false assumptions that she had been spoon fed by TIM. Liara knew the truth because she stole Shepard's corpse from the SB to hand it over to TIM. What's more, Liara should have been aware of what was being said about Shepard because of her position as an information broker. Why didn't she tell him?

[Gorosaur]

laecraft wrote...

Horizon was a perfect conflict - multi-layered. Not just a simple quarrel between two lovers. No, it went much deeper. The conflict was on personal level, professional one, military one, political one, evolutionary one, even spiritual (Shepard comes back from the dead, and it wasn't Ashley who recovered his body). It reaches all the way from physical up to metaphysical. And Ashley betrays you on every single level.

You betrayed humanity, your betrayed your Commander, you betrayed me. It was a perfect example how a beloved companion crosses a point of no redemption in a few-minute scene.

I wish there were more such scenes, because I love drama. But as if now, Horizon is one of the very few issues I want to see how they resolve. Not much potential for drama and conflict in ME3, alas.

Good points are raised.

Horizon is something that I feel is unjustly hated. From a character stand point it honestly does make sense. I romanced Ashley in ME1 and to be honest I still was perfectly okay with what happened. 

I feel most of the hate that comes from the scene are from people who really wanted the VS to be on their squad and were turned down .

[ddv.rsa]

@knightnblu: As I recall you play a paragon. Would you be happy with Ashley's reaction on Horizon if your Shepard was a renegade?

[alperez]

Knight, in terms of your justification regarding Anderson you completely dismiss the emotional bond aspect of the situation completely, instead you interpret Anderson as having more to lose which makes his support that much more of a big thing in your view.

But the problem with this is 1. the emotional bond does exist between Ash and Shepard, romanced or not there is a completely different character connection between the 2 than the one Shepard has with Anderson. While Anderson may respect Shepard he has no real experience of seeing Shepard in action unlike Ash, he also wasn't on board the normandy when it was destroyed and as such would not carry the same level of survivor guilt that Ash could be carrying.

2. Anderson's own reaction to his position shows just how much he actually cares about putting it at risk, up to Shepard's return he feels basically completely ineffectual and is certainly dissatisfied with his role, so while yes he stands up for Shepard it may not be the case as you assert he has more to lose.

3. You also gloss over the fact that Ash wouldn't have the same information available to her regarding the events that Anderson does, which again make the 2 characters reactions that much harder to compare.

In terms of Tali, once again you gloss over the simple fact that the dialogue Shepard has with her is completely different than the dialogue availble when talking to Ash. Shepard can explain his position to Tali in a much clearer fashion and so this too has to be taken into account.

Tali may have more reason to hate cerberus but at least Shepard has the chance to fully explain his position to her, even then its not until later at Haelstrom that Tali joins up which gives her time to fully digest the ramifications of Shepards return.

Ash gets one chance to accept Shepard's return and his now working with cerberus, She also is an alliance soldier something that Shepard supposedly represented (yes he was a spectre but he was still technically alliance also). When pressed on the details shepards responses are completely idiotic, rather than calm whatever fears Ash may have they in fact achieve the opposite effect.

When faced with seeing Shepard and Garrus together working with cerberus what other reaction could she make other than "Garrus to" as you put it, the simple fact of the matter is that practically everything she says is directed at Shepard, this comment is more an assertion of fact rather than a condemnation as you try to portray it.

Ash's initial reaction to Shepard disproves your assertion that she had already convicted him in her mind imo, that reaction was heartfelt and emotional and not the thing someone who already distrusted someone would make.

Its only upon finding out about Shepard's ressurrection and who Shepard's working with now that things go off kilter, after that its down unfortunately to Shepard's responses that bring the situation to a head.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
I absolutely agree with you on this. I have no doubt that Williams was indeed manipulated right along with everyone else, Shepard included. But my point remains, she should have had more faith in the man that she loved. She should have known intuitively the truth about him because she would have known his character as I believe that Anderson did. I don't mind a bit of suspicion because I believe that the facts as they appear demand it, but I do mind an outright betrayal by the woman who claimed to have been in love with me. If she doesn't know my character, then how could she ever have loved me?

I agree that Ash should have figured something wasn't right.  In particular if A) Shepard acted in a Council-friendly way and crushed many a Cerberus operative under his boot in ME 1 or had Garrus, Mordin, and/or Grunt with him.  What would a human-supremicist terrorist group be doing with aliens (save as lab rats)?  

Shepard's responses lend credence to it being bad writing, but I suppose this could also be an example of trying to shoehorn a "one size fits all" conversation in a situation that should have been far more dynamic.  It's one example of many where different playthroughs should have resulted in different reactions. 

I'm unwilling to one example of poor/cheap writing ruining Ash for me forever.  I'm willing to hope that ME3 will make things clear.  Or clearer at least.
 

"Actually, the Arrival incident would have been a great plot point to shake Ash's faith in Shepard. I mean, she wasn't there, maybe Shepard finally went too far, the Reaper obsession became too much and he cracked? Can true love overcome mass murder?"
 
A lot of people have been ruminating over that. If Ashley freaked out over Horizon, then she is bound to go nuclear over Bahak. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to be sentenced to execution with Williams at the switch, but for the Reaper invasion.

Yeah, but the point is, would Ash be more justified in losing faith in Shepard after destroying the Bahak system and killing 300k batarians, even though Shepard claims it was to stop the Reapers?  Or in agreeing to work with Cerberus, and all the rumors that go with it?
 

I looked for one and it never came. It has been months and nothing. So far as I know, we have all of the DLC for ME2 and no more will be released until after the release of ME3. That's why BioWare needs to either fix the situation that they created on Horizon or provide a way for me to assign her to Admiral Hackett or something.

Yeah ME2 is a done deal, for better or for worse (for worse imo)  Gotta face it, VS fans got screwed.
 

[knightnblu]

ddv.rsa said "As I recall you play a paragon. Would you be happy with Ashley's reaction on Horizon if your Shepard was a renegade?"
 
Another good question. Ashley's behavior does indeed seem to be more reasonable given a character that has played renegade. As for me, I very rarely choose the renegade option. When I do choose renegade its usually in response to somebody drawing a weapon or other such action. I refuse to just stand by and be shot.
 
While a renegade player could make the same arguments as I, he would be in a much weaker position to do so given that players preference for the faster and more pragmatic solutions. Paragons seem to be more willing to go out of their way in order to keep from doing harm. As my paragon bar is full, I believe that Ashley has far less reason to distrust my Shepard's word because she would know his character. She would base this on how he treated her, how he treated others, and viewpoints that were shared during conversations. I will grant you that two years is a long time, but for somebody to pull a 180 in their fundamental character seems at best a stretch.
 
alperez said "But the problem with this is 1. the emotional bond does exist between Ash and Shepard, romanced or not there is a completely different character connection between the 2 than the one Shepard has with Anderson. While Anderson may respect Shepard he has no real experience of seeing Shepard in action unlike Ash, he also wasn't on board the normandy when it was destroyed and as such would not carry the same level of survivor guilt that Ash could be carrying."
 
Anderson was a spec war trooper. He had been doing black bag ops for years per Navigator Pressley (so many medals that if he melted them all down he could make a full size statue of himself). Further, Anderson and Hackett studied Shepard for nomination as a candidate for the Spectres. I am certain that both Hackett and Anderson knew Shepard very well before they would stake their reputations on him before recommending him as humanity's first Spectre.
 
Regarding Williams, she loved Shepard. She told Shepard that he made her feel worth what she was fighting for. Of course there was a deep emotional connection between them. She wanted to stay aboard the SR1 and Shepard had to order her off the ship. So I wouldn't be surprised to see her struggling with some very difficult questions after Shepard got spaced. But all of these things point to Ashley being ecstatic to see Shepard, she wasn't. She was angry as soon as she saw Shepard. Why?
 
Because she had convicted him in her mind. She does not think "Thank God he's alive!" she thinks "That rat bastard!" That's why Shep asks her why she seems to be angry with him after the tentative hug. Shortly after that...well, we all know the story.
 
"3. You also gloss over the fact that Ash wouldn't have the same information available to her regarding the events that Anderson does, which again make the 2 characters reactions that much harder to compare."
 
Of course she wouldn't have the same access to information as Anderson would. She is not a senior Alliance officer and she is not the human Councilor. Anderson did in fact deny her any and all information about Shepard. So what? Williams has more than enough information to judge Shepard. In my opinion, she blew it. My point was that both characters either knew or should have known Shepard well enough to arrive at a reasonable judgment and while Anderson did, Williams did not.
 
"When faced with seeing Shepard and Garrus together working with cerberus what other reaction could she make other than "Garrus to" as you put it, the simple fact of the matter is that practically everything she says is directed at Shepard, this comment is more an assertion of fact rather than a condemnation as you try to portray it."
 
I didn't portray anything, Williams did. If you take Garrus and Miranda to Horizon, she recognizes Garrus, but ignores anything said by Miranda. She also ignores anything said by Jack and she is far more forceful and vociferous in her assessment of Cerberus and has the most reason to hate them. It doesn't make any difference to Ashley because her mind was made up before she even opened her mouth.
 
By doing the "Et Tu Garrae" she does indeed include Garrus in her distancing herself from them and that should have been a huge red flag to her. Cerberus is human supremacist, why is an alien working with them? Unfortunately, that thought never crosses her mind and it definitely should have.
 
"Ash's initial reaction to Shepard disproves your assertion that she had already convicted him in her mind imo, that reaction was heartfelt and emotional and not the thing someone who already distrusted someone would make."
 
Again, we are going to have to disagree. How is being pissed off at Shepard from the get go disprove my assertion? If anything, it disproves your assertion. Why is she pissed? Because he didn't find a payphone for two years? Because he didn't write her a note to tell her that he was alive? I don't buy it.
 
When I was a boy, I got lost and it took hours for me to find my way home again. It was late and way past the time I should have been home. My mother was sick with worry and rushed out of the house hugging and kissing me because I was alive. Then she took a strap to my backside for scaring the life out of her. That is normal behavior.
 
In the case of Williams, she was not ecstatic to see the man she loved returned from the grave, she was pissed. It would have been a whole lot more genuine if she had rushed into his arms and kissed him and then gave him up the creek. But she didn't. In fact, all Ashley needs to write you off is about two minutes and forty-five seconds.
 
Think about that. She misses Shepard so much that she agonizes over his death, suffers terribly from survivors guilt, is tormented for her lost love and two years later, when she finally sees him again...she isn't happy, she isn't ecstatic, she's pissed. In fact, she is so pissed that all she needs to make a judgment call is a lousy two minutes and forty-five seconds. Either Williams likes to make snap decisions or she bases those decisions after carefully weighing all of the available information beforehand. Put simply, she made up her mind long before she ever left for Horizon. That is why she doesn't bother to ask any questions. She doesn't need to seek any information because why do you need to question when you have already made up your mind? In such a case, you do not need a great deal of time to come to a decision and slightly less than three minutes is enough. For Williams, it was never a case of did Shepard, but of am I right about Shepard.
 
As soon as Shepard admits that he was restored by Cerberus that's it, she's right and it's time to ****** on the fire and call the dogs because if you stick a fork in Shepard, he's done. Now, to me that just doesn't seem to be very sporting because Shepard has very little chance of even defending or explaining his position.
 
Truthfully, I think that it would have been far kinder if Ashley had just shot him.
 
 
iakus - Good to see you back onboard! ;-) I am in complete agreement with you once again. I believe that you are 100% correct when you say that the VS got screwed. We most certainly did. I just hope that BioWare can fix the problem that they created on Horizon. For me, it is the sole blemish on an otherwise perfect series.

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

YouthCultureForever said "Alliance high command still trusts Shepard to handle missions. Admiral Hackett asks you to take on the mission in the Arrival DLC and Anderson doesn't write you off."
 
1.I have to disagree with you there. If you look at the Shadow Broker's intel you see that the Alliance wants Shepard arreste d and interrogated. The mission for Hackett is off the books and is classified and compartmentalized. As far as the Alliance is concerned, it never happened.
 
2. Regarding Anderson, he is very suspicious of Shepard. If anything, he no longer trusts him. That being said, he is also unwilling to hang him out to dry either unlike another member of the Alliance who shall remain nameless ;-). Why does he do that instead of just dropping the Guillotine? Because he is willing to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt. I don't know why Anderson could give me the benefit of the doubt and my LI, who arguably knew me even better, couldn't. Well, I have my suspicions, but I have already discussed them in previous posts to this thread.
 
3. My point was that Shepard did indeed know enough about Cerberus to brand them an enemy and that Ashley was ignorant of being able to make any judgment as to Shepard's motivations because she never inquired. If she does not have all of the fact, then how can she judge Shepard's guilt or innocence?
 
Ashley's own grandfather was subjected to similar treatment at the hands of the Alliance. If anybody should have known better, it was she. She doesn't even pause to take a breath and consider what she is doing. She just goes off half cocked. Why is it that she couldn't give her former lover the benefit of the doubt? Why is it that she felt the need to do to Shepard what the Alliance did to her grandfather? Military personnel are expected to use sound judgments in the field. In my opinion, Williams judgment indicates she is not ready to receive a commission. On Horizon, she was about as reasonable as a teenaged girl and not as a senior NCO.
 
4. "...so we don't get too far off topic. But, the Collecter objective was to snatch humans, transport them, and ultimately use them to make Reapers. They succeded. They didn't get everybody but its not something I would brag about."
 
Getting off topic was my point. So far as the Collector ship, they could have overloaded their mass effect core and bye-bye Shepard and company. They could have used their ship weapons to great effect on both the Normandy and to bombard the planet itself.
 
The Collector's objective was to take the ENTIRE colony, not just some of it. While there were partially successful, Cmdr. Shepard interuppted their operations and forced them to withdraw sparing half of the colony. As far as bragging, Shepard does not. He even informs TIM that it wasn't a victory and also Liara when he tells her that he saved some of them, but not enough.
 
But as the colony was already under attack and colonists were being packaged and placed aboard the Collector vessel, how much more could reasonably be done? Not much more than what Shepard was able to accomplish and it is highly doubtful that anybody else could have even achieved that much.
 
 My Response Starts Here.


1. You're missing the point. If Hackett belived Shepard was too far gone to trust he wouldn't have asked him to do the mission in the Arrival DLC and he would have approved arresting him. That decision rode on approval of arguably the most important figure in the Alliance (that we know) and he said no.

2. I don't want to twist your words, so please clarify what you mean when you say Anderson is simultaneously suspicious and understanding of Shepard. If you visit Anderson after Horizon he will tell you that he in fact approved the investigation into Cerberus. The conversation goes like this,

(Dialogue directly derived. No assumptions. No changes.)

Shepard - "I thought we we're friends, never expected you to go behind my back."

Anderson - "We didn't know about you at the time. And I wouldn't have told you if I did. What if TIM was manipulating you? Lying to you? The report actually confirmed your story. I still don't trust Cerberus, but they we're right about the missing colonies."

Ashley asks the same questions on Horizon, but when she does asks them its vile and villanous??? That makes no sense at all. Anderson didn't questions Shepard's motives, or his integrity. He questions Cerberus's. Just like Ashley! And if you go to Anderson before Horizon there are things he won't tell Shepard because he's working for Cerberus. Neither of them trusts Cerberus and you can't persuade them to believe otherwise. They're dubious about Cerberus and Shepard both until they have facts. That being said, they don't write you off. Their suspicions are directed primarily at Cerberus, not Shepard. Thats why they don't call in the metaphorical firing squad. They essentially believe he wants to save the colonies, they just don't like how he's going about it.

3. I don't think Ashley questions Shepard's motivations. Again, she questions Cerberus's. What are they up to? What do they want with the colonies? With you? That's what I essentially hear from Ash. And she knows Shepard's motivations in the broader sense, she helped him take down the Reapers after all. She knows he wants to save the galaxy and all that crap. Thats noble and all, but it just won't suffice as an answer when he's working for a terroist group that's kidnapped kids for biotic death camps and killed Alliance Admirals who ask questions. No way Jose. Becoming their ally? That action needs alot of justification.
 
4. What makes Horizon so bad is the fact that TIM set up the colony. If he hadn't would they have been abducted at all? Shepard saved a few on an anticipated hit. That doens't count for much.

*I think I've been clear. I don't think I left out any vital parts of your arguement, but correct me if you I'm wrong. I know this thread has grown since my last post and I haven't combed through the extra pages just yet. And geez, when do you find the time to respond to everybody? That takes determination.

EDIT: Let me add that I'm not forgetting Ashley called Shepard a "traitor" and my opinion on that. I just don't think it was as relevant to this response.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

What would a human-supremicist terrorist group be doing with aliens (save as lab rats)?  

I think I can answer that. 

Shepard's story checks out later after Horizon. Ash was suspicious of Cerberus until the intel was supportted factually. Did TIM have a grand master plan involving Shepard and his alien super squad??? She couldn't have known during the meeting on Horizon.

And I think its worth adding that no one on Shepard's squad acts out of pure patriotism or conviction save Miranda and Jacob. They take up arms because they either got paid to be there, want a favor in return, or essentially just have nothing better to do, or all of the preceding where applicable. They get what they want and thats good enough for them. "Yeah thanks for helping me out with that Shepard. You still want me to help that mission or whatever. Its no big deal, were pals!" Thats what happens. Their perspective is a little skewed when it comes to Shepard.

And for Ashley working with for TIM is out of the question. The Cerberus way just ain't the patriot way. It's not the Williams way. In ME2 its Alliance or bust. Her perspective might be different now that she 's a spectre though. We've seen the changes in her apperance. It could be an indication of who she is now in ME3.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

What would a human-supremicist terrorist group be doing with aliens (save as lab rats)?  

I think I can answer that. 

Shepard's story checks out later after Horizon. Ash was suspicious of Cerberus until the intel was supportted factually. Did TIM have a grand master plan involving Shepard and his alien super squad??? She couldn't have known during the meeting on Horizon.

And I think its worth adding that no one on Shepard's squad acts out of pure patriotism or conviction save Miranda and Jacob. They take up arms because they either got paid to be there, want a favor in return, or essentially just have nothing better to do. They get what they want and thats good enough for them. "Yeah thanks for helping me out with that Shepard. You still want me to help that mission or whatever. Its no big deal, were pals!" Thats what happens. Their perspective is a little skewed when it comes to Shepard anyhow.
 
And for Ashley the Cerberus way just ain't the patriot way. In ME2 its Alliance or bust. Her perspective might be different now that she 's a spectre though. We've seen the changes in her apperance. It could be an indication of who she is now in ME3.

Well, what I meant was:  Garrus, Grunt, and Mordin are nonhumans working with Cerberus.  And they know they're working for Cerberus.  They admit it when Ash mentions hearing reports taht Shepard is working with Cerberus.  So the question that should be going through Ash's mind should be, what would make nonhumans willing to work with Cerberus, and what would make Cerberus, a prohuman organization, reach out to them?  This should especially apply to Garrus, who has seen firsthand what Cerberus is capable of.  We know why they're on board.  Ash should be wondering, and realizing this isn't just another mad scientist project that's gotten out of hand