1035 réponses à ce sujet

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

Well, what I meant was:  Garrus, Grunt, and Mordin are nonhumans working with Cerberus.  And they know they're working for Cerberus.  They admit it when Ash mentions hearing reports taht Shepard is working with Cerberus.  So the question that should be going through Ash's mind should be, what would make nonhumans willing to work with Cerberus, and what would make Cerberus, a prohuman organization, reach out to them?  This should especially apply to Garrus, who has seen firsthand what Cerberus is capable of.  We know why they're on board.  Ash should be wondering, and realizing this isn't just another mad scientist project that's gotten out of hand.

I believe Cerberus has ulterior motives. TIM acts so suspiciously that he just makes you wonder if something else is really going on and if our beloved hero really is being played for a fool. 

Considering the intel Ashley has about Cerberus, taking into account their shady history, and the fact that it seems completely out of character for Shepard to work for them, I could see her making those conclusions (Sheps being played) and sticking to them until factually proved otherwise.

Another thing I think is important is that the squad has no contact with TIM and even Shepard doesn't get a true face to face. There are plenty of times where Shepard and the crew undermine the fact that the sucicide mission is a Cerberus mission. Shep says stuff all the time like, "I don't work for Cerberus, they're working for me". He is treated like the one calling the shots for the most part. Not TIM. I believe this was done on purpose, it's brilliant actually. The Shepard/Cerberus association would really start to blur. Don't get me wrong, the association doesn't go away altogether. Some team members will still call you out on your BS, but eventually they let it go. Shepard provides a thin sense of comfort to a crew who would otherwise be completely alienated by Cerberus. 

Essentially, they got sucked in by Shepard. The whole saving the galaxy line is pretty seductive. I think thats especially true of Garrus and Tali who should know better. Shepard just works that charm and they start eating out of the palms of his hands. And if Shepard is being played like a fiddle, so is his squad who trusts him. I think that's an appropriate conclusion to make.

When it comes to Ashley, Shepard or no Shepard, she's not working for Cerberus. Ever. "Im an Alliance soldier. It's in my blood."  Shepard may have sway over his alien buddies, but he doesn't have that kind of sway over Ash.

EDIT: So to clairfy and combine with my earlier post, the aliens get sweetheart deals from TIM and they get sucked in by Shepard. That's why they don't ditch Cerberus.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:51 .

[RAF1940]

No.

[YouthCultureForever]

RAF1940 wrote...

No.

Could you explain that sir?

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever Response
 
Re: Point 1
 
That is precisely my point. I never said that Hackett no longer trusted you personally, my position is that according to the information at hand neither he nor Anderson could trust you professionally. That means that neither would choose to share sensitive military information with you or allow you in the loop on classified operations, but that they would not hang you out to dry either. The same cannot be said for Williams who no longer trusts you both personally and professionally.
 
Re: Point 2
 
Anderson can no longer take the chance of trusting Shepard professionally because of the nature of the rumors circulating about him. Anderson wants to, but he cannot take that chance. He didn't survive as a spec war troop by taking unnecessary risks and he damned well won't break that habit in his elder years. Especially since he doesn't know for a fact that Shepard has not been compromised by Cerberus.
 
That being said, he still trusts Shepard personally. He researched him before he recomened him for Spectre status, he watched him when he was his subordinate, and he knows who he is as a man. In short, he knows Shepard well enough to know that Shep would never betray the Council or Alliance willingly. So it is the unwilling part that he has concerns with. The same could be said of Admiral Hackett.
 
Hackett goes to Shepard for an off the book mission to save his long time friend Dr. Amanda Kenson, who was recently captured by the Batarians as a terrorist. He can't use Alliance resources to rescue her because of political entanglements, but he can use Shepard who the Alliance is seeking to apprehend and interrogate. Therefore, by using Shepard he has a chance to save his friend and the request to take Shepard into custody provides him with plausible deniability in the event Shepard is killed on mission or is captured. Thus the Alliance is protected, Hackett might get his friend back, and Shepard might get info on an impending Reaper invasion. If it all goes to hell, then neither Hackett nor the Alliance are in hot water because they can disavow Shepard as a known terrorist who is working for the terror group Cerberus.
 
What is vile and villainous about Williams' actions on Horizon was her calling me a traitor to my face.  Anderson never did that. Hackett never did that. Operations Chief Ashley Williams stood tall before me and addressed her former commanding officer calling him a traitor to the Alliance, to Anderson and to herself. Indicating that I had betrayed the Alliance, my former CO Anderson, and her. The first two represent a betrayal of the State, the last is the betrayal of her and our relationship. Hence, Ashley believes that you are a traitor both personally and professionally.
 
This is important because it is an enlisted woman calling the loyalty and dedication of a superior officer into question. Try that in the real military and see what comes of it. What amazes me, is that so few people actually pick up on that. What's more, Williams comes from a military family. It isn't that she doesn't know what she is doing. Her father was a marine, her grandfather was a flag officer, and her grandmother was in the service. You cannot argue that "she didn't mean it" because she has to know exactly what she is doing. Career service personnel tend to pass along these traits to their children because it is easier than reverting to a new system every time you return home. Children are taught manners and courtesy to their elders and to show respect for their seniors.
 
Either Ashley was so distraught over seeing Shepard again and lost all of that conditioning that she had been surrounded by since birth, or she chose to override it. I believe we all know the answer to that.
 
That is my problem with Williams. She discarded every shred of military courtesy and went strait for the heart. She said I had betrayed the Alliance, Anderson, and her. That meant that I had turned my back on everything that I had fought, sweated, and bled for and finally, I had sunk so low that I even betrayed the woman I chose as an LI. Well thank you ever so much for those oh, so kind words little darlin'.
 
On what does she base these accusations? Rumors, witnessing me trying to save the colony on Horizon from a Collector attack, getting the colony defenses up and running again, and saving her life for the third time. Yeah, I can see how saying that I was rebuilt by Cerberus deep sixes all of that...not.
 
Nothing that I did on Horizon indicates that I have changed. Yet, Ashley is so convinced that I have. It is non sequitur.
 
"I don't think Ashley questions Shepard's motivations."
 
Of course she doesn't, she already knows them. How else could she call him a traitor? One assumes that treason is motivated by a lust for power or for greed or perhaps to avenge a wrong. Perhaps Ashley thinks that Shepard has a case of the ass against the Council and the Alliance for not doing enough about the Reapers and that is what prompted her to brand him a traitor.
 
While we may not know Ashley's particular reason for so marking him, it is apparent by the venom in her voice that it is deeply personal and negative in nature.
 
"What makes Horizon so bad is the fact that TIM set up the colony. If he hadn't would they have been abducted at all? Shepard saved a few on an anticipated hit. That doens't count for much."
 
I have been arguing that for a while now. It is the primary reason that I want to feed TIM to a wood chipper. As for the Battle of Horizon not counting for much, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
 
"And geez, when do you find the time to respond to everybody? That takes determination."
 
 
Maybe a little, but I figure that if somebody cares enough to make a post to this thread then the least that I owe them is a response.

[ddv.rsa]

Shepard just strolls into his office and Anderson offers to reinstate Spectre status if he can. No small thing- he's risking both his career (important to an officer and father) and the reputation of the Council / Alliance here. Clearly he does not consider Shepard a traitor. On the other hand, Shepard saves Ashley and an entire colony from the Collectors and she thanks him with accusations of treason.

Why can Anderson trust Shep but Ashley can't? There's something very wrong with that, and I hope we find out what in ME3. But I'm not getting my hopes up. After Bahak and romancing Miranda, all I'm expecting is more accusations and indignation. Possibly questioning of my authority now that she's a Spectre too. It'll probably be possible to mend the relationship with copious grovelling, but that's not for me.

Unless she's changed her attitude and can explain herself, I think I'll get her reassigned asap. Then go see if Liara's still interested.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

What is vile and villainous about Williams' actions on Horizon was her calling me a traitor to my face.  Anderson never did that. Hackett never did that. Operations Chief Ashley Williams stood tall before me and addressed her former commanding officer calling him a traitor to the Alliance, to Anderson and to herself. Indicating that I had betrayed the Alliance, my former CO Anderson, and her. The first two represent a betrayal of the State, the last is the betrayal of her and our relationship. Hence, Ashley believes that you are a traitor both personally and professionally.
 
This is important because it is an enlisted woman calling the loyalty and dedication of a superior officer into question. Try that in the real military and see what comes of it. What amazes me, is that so few people actually pick up on that. What's more, Williams comes from a military family. It isn't that she doesn't know what she is doing. Her father was a marine, her grandfather was a flag officer, and her grandmother was in the service. You cannot argue that "she didn't mean it" because she has to know exactly what she is doing. Career service personnel tend to pass along these traits to their children because it is easier than reverting to a new system every time you return home. Children are taught manners and courtesy to their elders and to show respect for their seniors.
 
Either Ashley was so distraught over seeing Shepard again and lost all of that conditioning that she had been surrounded by since birth, or she chose to override it. I believe we all know the answer to that.
 
That is my problem with Williams. She discarded every shred of military courtesy and went strait for the heart. She said I had betrayed the Alliance, Anderson, and her. That meant that I had turned my back on everything that I had fought, sweated, and bled for and finally, I had sunk so low that I even betrayed the woman I chose as an LI. Well thank you ever so much for those oh, so kind words little darlin'.
 
On what does she base these accusations? Rumors, witnessing me trying to save the colony on Horizon from a Collector attack, getting the colony defenses up and running again, and saving her life for the third time. Yeah, I can see how saying that I was rebuilt by Cerberus deep sixes all of that...not.
 
Nothing that I did on Horizon indicates that I have changed. Yet, Ashley is so convinced that I have. It is non sequitur.
 

All I can think of in this regards is the rumors would say that Shepard deliberately led the Normandy into a Collector/Cerberus trap to be destroyed.  In addition, Shepard faked his own death to go over to Cerberus.  In such a case, Shepard betrayed Anderson and the Alliance (getting a highly advanced warship destroyed and Alliance personel killed, including Navigator Pressly) and betrayed her by abandoning her for Cerberus as well as endangering her personally. 

I have no idea what could get Ash to believe something like this.  Faked footage, coerced testimony, planted evidence.  It would be a massive undertaking, made more so because it must only reach certain ears.  A whisper campaign that would make Shepard's closest allies in the Citadel and Alliance doubt him, but keep his public image untarnished.

This is all pure speculation, you understand.  But if Cerberus could pin the destruction of the original Normandy on Shepard, that it was a malicious act of terorism on his part and plant "fake but credible" evidence on him, then perhaps I could see why Ash seeing Shepard on Horizon with a Cerberus ship and crew in tow might make her go fusion.  It would take a rumor of that caliber, given a long period of time to build up, to credibly get that kind of reaction from her.

 It would also explain why the Alliance wants to interogate Shepard, why the salarian Councilor calls the rumors about Shepard "disturbing" and why Anderson can't quite bring himself to trust Shepard. 

[Iakus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Shepard just strolls into his office and Anderson offers to reinstate Spectre status if he can. No small thing- he's risking both his career (important to an officer and father) and the reputation of the Council / Alliance here. Clearly he does not consider Shepard a traitor. On the other hand, Shepard saves Ashley and an entire colony from the Collectors and she thanks him with accusations of treason.

Why can Anderson trust Shep but Ashley can't? There's something very wrong with that, and I hope we find out what in ME3. But I'm not getting my hopes up. After Bahak and romancing Miranda, all I'm expecting is more accusations and indignation. Possibly questioning of my authority now that she's a Spectre too. It'll probably be possible to mend the relationship with copious grovelling, but that's not for me.

Unless she's changed her attitude and can explain herself, I think I'll get her reassigned asap. Then go see if Liara's still interested.

Spectre reinstatement is purely symbolic.  It's conditional that Shep keep a low profile and limit his activities to the Terminus, where Spectre status doesn't mean a whole lot anyway. The Council doesn't even want reports from him.

And Anderson doesn't fully trust Shepard.  He's just quieter about it.

[ddv.rsa]

iakus wrote...

Spectre reinstatement is purely symbolic.  It's conditional that Shep keep a low profile and limit his activities to the Terminus, where Spectre status doesn't mean a whole lot anyway. The Council doesn't even want reports from him.

And Anderson doesn't fully trust Shepard.  He's just quieter about it.

In my game the alien Council is dead, and I don't recall Anderson stipulating any conditions. In any case, it's a symbol that carries a lot of weight throughout Council space. If a Spectre goes rogue like Saren did, that hurts the image of the Council. Obviously you wouldn't give Spectre status to someone you think is a terrorist traitor. Say what you want, it's a show of trust.

[jeweledleah]

iakus wrote...

All I can think of in this regards is the rumors would say that Shepard deliberately led the Normandy into a Collector/Cerberus trap to be destroyed.  In addition, Shepard faked his own death to go over to Cerberus.  In such a case, Shepard betrayed Anderson and the Alliance (getting a highly advanced warship destroyed and Alliance personel killed, including Navigator Pressly) and betrayed her by abandoning her for Cerberus as well as endangering her personally. 

I have no idea what could get Ash to believe something like this.  Faked footage, coerced testimony, planted evidence.  It would be a massive undertaking, made more so because it must only reach certain ears.  A whisper campaign that would make Shepard's closest allies in the Citadel and Alliance doubt him, but keep his public image untarnished.

This is all pure speculation, you understand.  But if Cerberus could pin the destruction of the original Normandy on Shepard, that it was a malicious act of terorism on his part and plant "fake but credible" evidence on him, then perhaps I could see why Ash seeing Shepard on Horizon with a Cerberus ship and crew in tow might make her go fusion.  It would take a rumor of that caliber, given a long period of time to build up, to credibly get that kind of reaction from her.

 It would also explain why the Alliance wants to interogate Shepard, why the salarian Councilor calls the rumors about Shepard "disturbing" and why Anderson can't quite bring himself to trust Shepard. 

that would be my guess.  and it would also explain why reunion was such an emotional rollercoster, why Ash doesn't start walking away untill after you confirm that you are with Cerberus in some fasion.  and she still doesn't want to beleive that you have compeltely gone over, she wants to trust you, but she's confused as hell and the evidence agasint you is overwhelming. 

in my games where council is dead but anderson is councilor - he DOES say that its purely symbolic.  in the games with dead council and udina as councilor? you don't even get an option to get reinstared

Modifié par jeweledleah, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...
 
1.That is precisely my point. I never said that Hackett no longer trusted you personally, my position is that according to the information at hand neither he nor Anderson could trust you professionally. That means that neither would choose to share sensitive military information with you or allow you in the loop on classified operations, but that they would not hang you out to dry either. The same cannot be said for Williams who no longer trusts you both personally and professionally.
 
Anderson can no longer take the chance of trusting Shepard professionally because of the nature of the rumors circulating about him. Anderson wants to, but he cannot take that chance. He didn't survive as a spec war troop by taking unnecessary risks and he damned well won't break that habit in his elder years. Especially since he doesn't know for a fact that Shepard has not been compromised by Cerberus.
 
That being said, he still trusts Shepard personally. He researched him before he recomened him for Spectre status, he watched him when he was his subordinate, and he knows who he is as a man. In short, he knows Shepard well enough to know that Shep would never betray the Council or Alliance willingly. So it is the unwilling part that he has concerns with. The same could be said of Admiral Hackett.
 
What is vile and villainous about Williams' actions on Horizon was her calling me a traitor to my face.  Anderson never did that. Hackett never did that. Operations Chief Ashley Williams stood tall before me and addressed her former commanding officer calling him a traitor to the Alliance, to Anderson and to herself. Indicating that I had betrayed the Alliance, my former CO Anderson, and her. The first two represent a betrayal of the State, the last is the betrayal of her and our relationship. Hence, Ashley believes that you are a traitor both personally and professionally.
 
This is important because it is an enlisted woman calling the loyalty and dedication of a superior officer into question. Try that in the real military and see what comes of it. What amazes me, is that so few people actually pick up on that. What's more, Williams comes from a military family. It isn't that she doesn't know what she is doing. Her father was a marine, her grandfather was a flag officer, and her grandmother was in the service. You cannot argue that "she didn't mean it" because she has to know exactly what she is doing. Career service personnel tend to pass along these traits to their children because it is easier than reverting to a new system every time you return home. Children are taught manners and courtesy to their elders and to show respect for their seniors.
 
That is my problem with Williams. She discarded every shred of military courtesy and went strait for the heart. She said I had betrayed the Alliance, Anderson, and her.

2.That meant that I had turned my back on everything that I had fought, sweated, and bled for and finally, I had sunk so low that I even betrayed the woman I chose as an LI. Well thank you ever so much for those oh, so kind words little darlin'.
 
 
Nothing that I did on Horizon indicates that I have changed. Yet, Ashley is so convinced that I have. It is non sequitur.
 
 
My Response Starts Here.

1. First of all Ashley is your lover. Not your old crusty superior. Her reaction is going to be more intense than Hackett or Anderson's. Ash has shared her values with Shepard, given him insight into her character, given her body to him, the whole nine yards. In western culture today romantic relationships are viewed as partnerships, and the people in the relationship are equals. This relationship isn't modeled on superior - subordinate relations. So you can't compare a father - daughter relationship or an officer - subordinate realationship to a modern day romantic relationship. The expectations are different.

So Shepard shouldn't feel he's above questioning because he was her commanding officer. If he wanted to keep things professional he shouldn't have gotten romantically involved with her. You can't have it both ways. Rigid military curtesy flew out the door when Shepard broke the regs and crossed that boundary. Romance complicated everything. The relationship is no longer a superior - subordinate model. Even with platonic Ashley the relationship was never in the typical mode. They're in the most abnormal of situations. You're racing across the galaxy to stop an ancient alien race. I don't think they covered how to cope with that professionally in basic training. They lean on each other. Shepard was always more than her Commander.

2. Ashley doens't say you turned you back on everything you've done. She essentially says you turned your back on the way it was done. The Alliance way. The hornorable patriot way. The way paved with good clean cookie cutter values that few can argue with. And that is what Shepard does. He turns his back on a system they both believed in by operating for a rogue human supremicist group with a ridiculously checkered past. No, the Alliance isn't perfect, but Cerberus has almost no integrity. That constitutes emotional betrayal. And why would he think that's okay? Like she suggests, he's being manipulated.

"I have to save the galaxy."  Thats noble, but not a good enough answer. It's a joke. At least that's how Ashley sees it.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[ddv.rsa]

jeweledleah wrote...

that would be my guess.  and it would also explain why reunion was such an emotional rollercoster, why Ash doesn't start walking away untill after you confirm that you are with Cerberus in some fasion.  and she still doesn't want to beleive that you have compeltely gone over, she wants to trust you, but she's confused as hell and the evidence agasint you is overwhelming. 

in my games where council is dead but anderson is councilor - he DOES say that its purely symbolic.  in the games with dead council and udina as councilor? you don't even get an option to get reinstared

Anderson notes the title is mostly symbolic (who's disputing this?), but he doesn't order you to confine yourself to the Terminus. 

Second, if there were a rumor that Shepard was behind the destruction of the orginal Normandy, don't you think someone would have told Shep? Anderson, Hackett, Liara, Bailey, somebody? Where's the overwhelming evidence?

Edit: When Udina is in power, Anderson complains that he doesn't have the power to reinstate your Spectre status. It's not a case of him not wanting to help.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 septembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Wulfram]

Symbolic? Spectre status gets you an employee discount on your Space Hamster!

I do wish Shepard could mention that he's been to the citadel, talked to the council/Anderson and been reinstated.

[Iakus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anderson notes the title is mostly symbolic (who's disputing this?), but he doesn't order you to confine yourself to the Terminus. 

Second, if there were a rumor that Shepard was behind the destruction of the orginal Normandy, don't you think someone would have told Shep? Anderson, Hackett, Liara, Bailey, somebody? Where's the overwhelming evidence?

Edit: When Udina is in power, Anderson complains that he doesn't have the power to reinstate your Spectre status. It's not a case of him not wanting to help.

He does say it will be easy to keep the Council and Alliance off Shepard's back if he stays in the Terminus.

Re:  Rumors.  I don't know.  There are rumors about Shepard, but no one's said what they are.  I only mentioned the original Normandy's destruction as an example of something that would be "big enough" to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  

[ddv.rsa]

iakus wrote...

Re:  Rumors.  I don't know.  There are rumors about Shepard, but no one's said what they are.  I only mentioned the original Normandy's destruction as an example of something that would be "big enough" to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  

Doesn't Anderson send an email early in the game, saying you're rumored to be alive and working for Cerberus? As far as I know, that's the extent of it.

[Iakus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

iakus wrote...

Re:  Rumors.  I don't know.  There are rumors about Shepard, but no one's said what they are.  I only mentioned the original Normandy's destruction as an example of something that would be "big enough" to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  

Doesn't Anderson send an email early in the game, saying you're rumored to be alive and working for Cerberus? As far as I know, that's the extent of it.

The salarian Councilor and Anderson mention "disturbing rumors"  when you meet them on the Citadel.

Ash mentions rumors that Shepard was not dead and worse, "working for the enemy"

TIM tells Shepard after Horizon that he "may have let it slip" that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus

[ddv.rsa]

iakus wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

iakus wrote...

Re:  Rumors.  I don't know.  There are rumors about Shepard, but no one's said what they are.  I only mentioned the original Normandy's destruction as an example of something that would be "big enough" to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  

Doesn't Anderson send an email early in the game, saying you're rumored to be alive and working for Cerberus? As far as I know, that's the extent of it.

The salarian Councilor and Anderson mention "disturbing rumors"  when you meet them on the Citadel.

Ash mentions rumors that Shepard was not dead and worse, "working for the enemy"

TIM tells Shepard after Horizon that he "may have let it slip" that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus

Just "Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus" would certainly qualify as a "disturbing" rumor. Is there any good reason to think there's more to it than that?

[Iakus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

iakus wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

iakus wrote...

Re:  Rumors.  I don't know.  There are rumors about Shepard, but no one's said what they are.  I only mentioned the original Normandy's destruction as an example of something that would be "big enough" to shake Ash's faith in Shepard.  

Doesn't Anderson send an email early in the game, saying you're rumored to be alive and working for Cerberus? As far as I know, that's the extent of it.

The salarian Councilor and Anderson mention "disturbing rumors"  when you meet them on the Citadel.

Ash mentions rumors that Shepard was not dead and worse, "working for the enemy"

TIM tells Shepard after Horizon that he "may have let it slip" that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus

Just "Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus" would certainly qualify as a "disturbing" rumor. Is there any good reason to think there's more to it than that?

Well, the fact that Shepard may very well have crushed dozens of Cerberus operatives under his boot over the course of ME 1 would make such rumors highly unlikley, unless he was somehow being coerced or controlled (which would mean shepard isn't betraying anyone, as you need free will to betray).

Plus the very fact that Shepard was alive raises all sorts of questions.  I mean, ressurection technology's impossible, right?  So obviously he faked his death! 

In addition, Shepard (and Ash and Anderson) stole the original Normandy from the Citadel durng the lockdown in ME1.  This is in itself a treasonous act, but in the end it was done "for the right reasons" as Ash herself admits during the romance scene in ME1.  So there must somehow be a difference between one treasonous act done for the right reasons and another act, also supposedly done fro the right reasons.  What makes one a betrayal and another not?

That's why I think there must be more to the rumors than "Shepard got a Cerberus decoder ring"

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

What makes one a betrayal and another not?

The Alliance has integerity, while Cerberus has almost none.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:47 .

[ddv.rsa]

iakus wrote...
What makes one a betrayal and another not?

The mere fact that Cerberus is involved. As far as the Alliance is concerned, nothing can justify working with them.

In the end you may be right, but based on what I've seen ingame there's no reason to think the rumors are any more specific than "Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus!". If there were some horrible story doing the rounds, someone would have questioned Shepard on it.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 18 septembre 2011 - 07:49 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

What makes one a betrayal and another not?

The Alliance has integerity, while Cerberus has almost none.

But Shepard is betraying the Alliance in both cases.  For the best of reasons of course.  But in one case, Ash is fine with it.  And in another, it's a horrible horrible thing.

[Iakus]

ddv.rsa wrote...

The mere fact that Cerberus is involved. As far as the Alliance is concerned, nothing can justify working with them.

In the end you may be right, but based on what I've seen ingame there's no reason to think the rumors are any more specific than "Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus!". If there were some horrible story doing the rounds, someone would have questioned Shepard on it.

Nothing can justify stealing the Alliance's most advanced warship wither 

And what I'm talking about isn't about Anderson or the Council's faith in Shepard.  It's what can turn Ash against him.  They've been through the fire together.  She's seen what Shepard is capable of, and what his values are.  To get her to think he's betrayed those things would take something big.

As to why nobody confronts Shepard about the rumors, well, I never said this was a well-written scenerio...

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

What makes one a betrayal and another not?

The Alliance has integerity, while Cerberus has almost none.

But Shepard is betraying the Alliance in both cases.  For the best of reasons of course.  But in one case, Ash is fine with it.  And in another, it's a horrible horrible thing.

Ash is with Shepard in the first case because they're philosophically in sync when it comes to values. In the second case, they're as far apart as they can be. She doesn't trust Cerberus, so it's a bad thing. It also makes it easier when Anderson, an Alliance officer they both look up to as a mentor, gives the go ahead to steal the Normandy. Essentially, Anderson and the Alliance are symbols of what she trusts. (The honorable, patriot, Williams way.) She can trust Anderson's judgement, but TIM? I don't think so. Nobody knows anything about him in ME2. We only have his agenda. And he's so sneaky even Shepard shouldn't trust him.

EDIT: I'm not saying she doesn't betray the Alliance by being party to the theft of the Normandy. That was just justifiable in her view. It is still treason though.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[alperez]

iakus

You ask what's different about taking the normandy in me1 and shepard working with cerberus in me2 and why Ash can be fine with one but not the other.

As others have pointed out in me1 Ash was working alongside Shepard, she believed what Shepard was doing was right and the alliance's stance was wrong, in essence she trusted that the choice shepard was making was the right one.

The problem though is the situation she then finds herself in when remeeting Shepard in me2, a shepard that for 2 years was presumed dead only to return working with people that both the alliance and council consider terrorists. Unlike in me1 Ash doesn't have the benefit of working alongside Shepard this time, her understanding of events is completely different than it was in me1.

She's faced with a returning Shepard working with terrorist who when pressed about his whereabouts and his reasoning gives completely idiotic answers to both. So while in me1 she can see the greater good in what Shepard is doing because she's been involved directly, in me2 she instead must make a choice based on the info she has.

The problem then becomes do you follow shepard on blind faith that what he's doing is the best thing for everyone or do you wonder if the man in front of you is not the same person he used to be, again it comes back to how Shepard responds to her when pressed and i'm sorry his explanations suck.

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ash is with Shepard in the first case because they're philosophically in sync when it comes to values. In the second case, they're as far apart as they can be. She doesn't trust Cerberus, so it's a bad thing. It also makes it easier when Anderson, an Alliance officer they both look up to as a mentor, gives the go ahead to steal the Normandy. Essentially,  Anderson and the Alliance are symbols of what she trusts. She can trust his judgement, but TIM? I don't think so. Nobody knows anything about him. We only have his agenda. And he's so sneaky even Shepard shouldn't trust him.

EDIT: I'm not saying she doesn't betray the Alliance by being party to the theft of the Normandy. That was just justifiable in her view. It is still treason though.

But Shepard can specifically tell Ash that he does not take orders from Cerberus, that they are simply working towards the same goal:  protecting colonies.  The Illusive Man doesn't enter their discussion at all.

Sure having Anderson giving the okay can make things easier with the lockdown.  But Shepard can have Garrus right there next to him, telling Ash she's letting her emotions cloud her judgement (talk about the pot calling the kettle black, btw)  Garrus, a turian who has seen firsthand what Cerberus is capable of, who has fought alongside Ash and Shepard, saying that Cerberus is in the right in this case!  

It's fine that Ash doesn't trust Cerberus, or thinks Shepard is being foolish to trust them.  I get all that.  But betrayal?  Shepard has risked everything in the past to save the Alliance and the galaxy as a whole.  His reputation, his career, his  life.  If Ilos hadn't paid off, best case scenerio would have been a court martial, if not being hunted down and killed by his own people.  And that's assuming the whole Reaper things was just a bunch of delusions brought about by malfunctioning Prothean technology screwing with his mind.  

Does working alongside Cerberus in the Terminus really seem that much worse?