1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Williams never was my girl, whether I'm dating her or not.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

iakus

You ask what's different about taking the normandy in me1 and shepard working with cerberus in me2 and why Ash can be fine with one but not the other.

As others have pointed out in me1 Ash was working alongside Shepard, she believed what Shepard was doing was right and the alliance's stance was wrong, in essence she trusted that the choice shepard was making was the right one.

The problem though is the situation she then finds herself in when remeeting Shepard in me2, a shepard that for 2 years was presumed dead only to return working with people that both the alliance and council consider terrorists. Unlike in me1 Ash doesn't have the benefit of working alongside Shepard this time, her understanding of events is completely different than it was in me1.

She's faced with a returning Shepard working with terrorist who when pressed about his whereabouts and his reasoning gives completely idiotic answers to both. So while in me1 she can see the greater good in what Shepard is doing because she's been involved directly, in me2 she instead must make a choice based on the info she has.

The problem then becomes do you follow shepard on blind faith that what he's doing is the best thing for everyone or do you wonder if the man in front of you is not the same person he used to be, again it comes back to how Shepard responds to her when pressed and i'm sorry his explanations suck.

Oh I agree that Shepard's responses were idotic.  But look at the past Ash and Shepard shared.   Destruction of Prothean ruins, battles with telepathic plants, chats with a member of a race thought extinct for two millenia, another conversation with a 50k year old VI,  stealing the Normandy and cumlinating in driving a Mako through a mini relay and a battle up the side of the Citadel and a battle with an avatar of Sovereign.

Through it all they had Shepard's visions driving them.  Something Ash couldn't share, but took on faith.  All the crazy stunts they went through began there, and Shepard was right to heed their warnings.  All those crazy stunts, it turned out were done for the right reasons.

Ash may not know all the facts on Horizon.  But she should know Shepard, that he really would only do something like this for the right reasons.  Unless something else has come along to make her doubt that.  Rumors suggestingf that maybe she never really knew her Commander at all...

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ash is with Shepard in the first case because they're philosophically in sync when it comes to values. In the second case, they're as far apart as they can be. She doesn't trust Cerberus, so it's a bad thing. It also makes it easier when Anderson, an Alliance officer they both look up to as a mentor, gives the go ahead to steal the Normandy. Essentially,  Anderson and the Alliance are symbols of what she trusts. She can trust his judgement, but TIM? I don't think so. Nobody knows anything about him. We only have his agenda. And he's so sneaky even Shepard shouldn't trust him.

EDIT: I'm not saying she doesn't betray the Alliance by being party to the theft of the Normandy. That was just justifiable in her view. It is still treason though.

But Shepard can specifically tell Ash that he does not take orders from Cerberus, that they are simply working towards the same goal:  protecting colonies.  The Illusive Man doesn't enter their discussion at all.

Sure having Anderson giving the okay can make things easier with the lockdown.  But Shepard can have Garrus right there next to him, telling Ash she's letting her emotions cloud her judgement (talk about the pot calling the kettle black, btw)  Garrus, a turian who has seen firsthand what Cerberus is capable of, who has fought alongside Ash and Shepard, saying that Cerberus is in the right in this case!  

It's fine that Ash doesn't trust Cerberus, or thinks Shepard is being foolish to trust them.  I get all that.  But betrayal?  Shepard has risked everything in the past to save the Alliance and the galaxy as a whole.  His reputation, his career, his  life.  If Ilos hadn't paid off, best case scenerio would have been a court martial, if not being hunted down and killed by his own people.  And that's assuming the whole Reaper things was just a bunch of delusions brought about by malfunctioning Prothean technology screwing with his mind.  

Does working alongside Cerberus in the Terminus really seem that much worse?

"I don't work for Cerberus. They're working for me."  <_< Thats a crock. Shepard really shouldn't delude himself with that, but hey, whatever help him sleep at night.

I responed to another one of your posts already about Shepard's alien squad and why they don't ditch Cerberus, at the top of page 26 I think. I'll try to link it.

I don't think this about treason. She knows he's not going to stick his neck out for Cerberus. The betrayal is purely emotional. He turned his back on a system the both believed in, and started working for a terroist group. He's turning his back on what she stood for. What they stood for. Thats the only betrayal Ash is talking about.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[alperez]

Knight.

You missed my point completely about the emotional bond between Ash/shepard and the fact that it doesn't exist in the same way with Anderson/Shepard. Instead you point out Anderson's record and his reasons for picking Shepard as a spectre as if this in some way shows anything other than they knew Shepard was the best person for the job.

Anderson can be more objective than Ash can simply because they don't share the same emotional bond, he can objectively without emotion decide whether Shepard should or could be trusted. Ash doesn't have that luxury, her relationship with Shepard professionally or romantically doesn't allow the same objectivity.

In terms of what you then go on to say about Ash again you miss out some vital details, yes she did love him but he's also supposedly been dead for 2 years, she's gone through grief, survivors guilt and finally acceptance only to be faced with the return of Shepard and having all those feelings that she's just put to rest suddenly being thrown back up again.

If you loved someone, thought they had died, went through the process of grief and loss that this entails, only to be faced with that person returning after 2 years then it makes sense that your emotions would be all over the place.

When you then add in that the person explains themselves as badly as Shepard does and seems to be working for/with terrorists which they also explain as badly as Shepard does, would you just blindly accept that everything was fine and dandy?

You seem extremely annoyed by Ash's reaction to Shepard, yet the reasoning behind that reaction doesn't seem to even enter your appraisal of the situation. Instead you bring up the fact that Ash was in love with Shepard so in your view she should just accept Shepards incredibly bad explantions as if they are more than what they are.

She in your words has more than enough info to judge Shepard and she blows it simply because unlike the rest, she questions Shepard and when Shepard gives the answers he does she doesn't blind accept that the man in front of her is the same man she once knew.

I'm sorry but this is where i really disagree with you, after an absence of 2 years people change, what they once stood for may not be what they stand for now, when pressed on this Shepard rather than allieviate these concerns, dismisses them with idiotic answers, yet you still think Ash should believe in Shepard and accept that he hasn't changed even though there is no evidence presented that this is the case.

Ash doesn't know all the facts, she has an idea of what's going on, has perhaps heard rumours about Shepard and when faced with his return and the emotions this may bring up, she reacts emotionally first. She questions whether or not Shepard is the same person he used to be, shepard's responses inflame rather than allieviate whatever concerns she may have, yet when she then acts in the manner she does, you seem to think its Ash who is at fault.

In terms of Garrus and her reaction to him, if she believes that Shepard may not be the man she once knew, something she clearly does why should she react differently just because Garrus is there also?

You bring up her reactions to Jack and Miranda, but these aren't even relevant, she has no idea who these people are why listen to them, when Shepard can't even present his own case clearly?

Again after the 2 year absence, in the midst of an emotional encounter with a Shepard who may not stand for the same things he once did, during the conversation where Shepard explains himself so badly, why would Ash care about Jack or Miranda or not think that Garrus too may have changed?

If she believes that Shepard doesn't stand for the same things as he once did and her emotions are already heightened as they would be seeing the man she thought was dead standing right in front of her, then what she say's has to be taken in that context, something you almost completely ignore and instead focus just on what she says, imo you ignore the context of what Ash has and is going through and want her to forget everything and just accept Shepard's return and word as if they are enough, I'm sorry but that's just not how a real person would deal with the same situation.

Lastly, Ash's initial reaction to Shepard is to scold the guy Shepard's speaking to and then embrace him, its only after this that everything else gets brought up. Someone who had already convicted Shepard in their mind as you put it would simply not act how Ash initially does, its only once the questions start that things go off the rails.

[YouthCultureForever]

@iakus

My reply to your other post.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...


"I don't work for Cerberus. They're working for me."  <_< Thats a crock. Shepard really shouldn't delude himself with that, but hey, whatever help him sleep at night.

I responed to another one of your posts already about Shepard's alien squad and why they don't ditch Cerberus, at the top of page 26 I think. I'll try to link it.

I don't think this about treason. She knows he's not going to stick his neck out for Cerberus. The betrayal is purely emotional. He turned his back on a system the both believed in, and started working for a terroist group. He's turning his back on what she stood for. What they stood for. Thats the only betrayal Ash is talking about.

Actually, the phrase is "Cerberus and I want the same thing-to save out colonies.  That doesn't mean I answer to them"  

My point is not what the motivations of aliens working with Cerberus are, it was that Ashley should note that aliens are in fact, working alongside Cerberus personel.  That should be a hint that something very odd is happening.

"How could you just turn you back on all of us?  You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson.  You betrayed me"  That sounds like a pretty complete betrayal.  particularly later when Ashley says "I still know where my loyalties lie"

[alperez]

iakus

With or without the rumours, the reappearance of Shepard 2 years after dying, the fact he's now working with terrorists would/should make someone question what the hell is going on here.

When you then add in Shepard's idiotic response, his reasoning behind working with cerberus,then it makes sense that you may begin to ask yourself is this the same Shepard i once knew and followed or has something changed.

If someone you once knew and trusted died and 2 years later they reappeared working with people you believe are terrorists, if you question them and they answered as Shepard does on Horizon, would you believe they still stand for the same things they used to or would you question whether or not they are the person you remember?

When faced with them telling you that the people you know as terrorists are the only ones doing whats right, would you accept this simply because 2 years previous that person was in fact right about things or would you again question whether the person in front of you was the same person you once knew?

If cerberus are terrorists in the eyes of the council and alliance and shepard supposedly has the alliance's best interests at heart but is suddenly working with these very same terrorist, would you once again question whether or not Shepard was the same man you once knew?

The simple truth whether we like it or not is that in Ash's mind the question of whether or not shepard is what she once believed him to be is not answered in a manner to alieviate her concerns.

When faced both with the situation and the justification for that situation, ash responds by calling Shepard a traitor, its an emotional response which while not justified to us since we have all the info, is however a justified from Ash's perspective.

[YouthCultureForever]

@iakus

Please go back and read that post about the aliens. I gave you a link. Its obvious you didn't read it. All it means is they got sucked in by Shepard.

And I didn't mean Shepard said that line then, its just exemplifies his general attitude. (He actually tries that on Tali and fails.)

Again, the Alliance and Anderson are symbols of what she values. Its whats she identifies with. Think the lines, "I'm an Alliance soldier. It's in my blood." And "I know where my loyalties lie." Shepard betrays what they both used to value. "You betrayed me!" is the most important part of that statement. That's why it came last, that's why it was said with the most force.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 18 septembre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

@iakus

Please go back and read that post about the aliens. I gave you a link. Its obvious you didn't read it. All it means is they got sucked in by Shepard.

.

I did read it.  But just because Cerberus made them deals and Shepard sweet-talked them doesn't remove the fact that they are working with Cerberus.  This would be like humans working for the Batarian Hegemony.  A krogan freelancing for the STG.  Sure it could happen, but it would be an incredibly rare event.  One worthy of comment.  

And that's what should be going through Ash's mind.  Not a "Garrus, not you too" followed by a facepalm.  But a "Garrus, you know what they'd do to you given half an excuse?"

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...

iakus

With or without the rumours, the reappearance of Shepard 2 years after dying, the fact he's now working with terrorists would/should make someone question what the hell is going on here.

When you then add in Shepard's idiotic response, his reasoning behind working with cerberus,then it makes sense that you may begin to ask yourself is this the same Shepard i once knew and followed or has something changed.

If someone you once knew and trusted died and 2 years later they reappeared working with people you believe are terrorists, if you question them and they answered as Shepard does on Horizon, would you believe they still stand for the same things they used to or would you question whether or not they are the person you remember?

When faced with them telling you that the people you know as terrorists are the only ones doing whats right, would you accept this simply because 2 years previous that person was in fact right about things or would you again question whether the person in front of you was the same person you once knew?

If cerberus are terrorists in the eyes of the council and alliance and shepard supposedly has the alliance's best interests at heart but is suddenly working with these very same terrorist, would you once again question whether or not Shepard was the same man you once knew?

The simple truth whether we like it or not is that in Ash's mind the question of whether or not shepard is what she once believed him to be is not answered in a manner to alieviate her concerns.

When faced both with the situation and the justification for that situation, ash responds by calling Shepard a traitor, its an emotional response which while not justified to us since we have all the info, is however a justified from Ash's perspective.

Questioning is not an issue.  I totally agree.  And Shepard's responses are idiotic.  But in the end, his answers boil down to "colonies are being grabbed by the Collectors.  The Reapers are behind it all"  Which sounds (more or less) like the Shepard of old.  

One can question Shepard's wisdom in listening to Cerberus, of course.  Heck you can question his sanity.  The Council sure does.  But I would think that saving the galaxy once two years ago earns a little goodwill.  Because he might just be right again.  I would certainyl hold off on calling him a traitor until I was sure the coat had truly turned.

Heck even Tali admitted that at first she thought Shepard had infiltrated Cerberus with the intention of destroying them from the inside.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

I did read it.  But just because Cerberus made them deals and Shepard sweet-talked them doesn't remove the fact that they are working with Cerberus.  This would be like humans working for the Batarian Hegemony.  A krogan freelancing for the STG.  Sure it could happen, but it would be an incredibly rare event.  One worthy of comment.  

And that's what should be going through Ash's mind.  Not a "Garrus, not you too" followed by a facepalm.  But a "Garrus, you know what they'd do to you given half an excuse?"

If asked, Garrus and Tali are not going to say they work for Cerberus. They're going to say they work for Shepard. There is a difference. If you define a situation as real, it becomes real in it's consequences. If one truly wants to understand why people do the things they do, one must take into account not only what is really going on in a particular situation but what people think is going on. Shepard doesn't have the Cerberus agenda - so he's not really Cerberus. It would be easy for them to feel like they're not really working for Cerberus. Easy to fool themselves essentially. On top of that, they drink the Shepard kool-aid which just seals the deal.

And no one really treats the suicide mission like a Cerberus mission at all. Shepard gets treated like the one calling the shots for the most part.

In the first conversation with Tali after Haestrom she'll make the statement, "I don't work for Cerberus I work for you, Shepard." (I don't quite remember how to get it, but I've definitely heard it). She has no reason to work for Cerberus otherwise. They'd recently attacked one of ships in the Migrant Fleet. TIM made an enemy of the Quarians. If Shepard wasn't leading the mission would she consider working with Cerberus? I don't think so. Would any of the aliens be there without Shepard?

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 19 septembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

[/i]If asked, Garrus and Tali are not going to say they work for Cerberus. They're going to say they work for Shepard. There is a difference. If you define a situation as real, it becomes real in it's consequences. If one truly wants to understand why people do the things they do, one must take into account not only what is really going on in a particular situation but what people think is going on. Shepard doesn't have the Cerberus agenda - so he's not really Cerberus. It would be easy for them to feel like they're not really working for Cerberus. Easy to fool themselves essentially. On top of that, they drink the Shepard kool-aid which just seals the deal.

I bolded this because it's a pretty important statement.  This is very true.  But for everyone invovled, including the VS, and Shepard.  Not just the people Shepard recruits.

The VS sees Shepard working for Cerberus.  But is he really?  Is he there for the Illusive Man or there for someone or something else?  What is Shepard's agenda?  What could convince Shepard to work alongside Cerberus?  By the same token, what could convince Cerberus to work alongside nonhumans, even if they are "there for Shepard"?

At the same time, Shepard has to consider his position.  He is working alongside Cerberus.  Shepard knows what Shepard's agenda is, but he's been out of the galactic scene for two years.  Who knows what people have done with his image?   What do people think is going on, from the outside looking in?

Modifié par iakus, 19 septembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[ladyvader]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

I did read it.  But just because Cerberus made them deals and Shepard sweet-talked them doesn't remove the fact that they are working with Cerberus.  This would be like humans working for the Batarian Hegemony.  A krogan freelancing for the STG.  Sure it could happen, but it would be an incredibly rare event.  One worthy of comment.  

And that's what should be going through Ash's mind.  Not a "Garrus, not you too" followed by a facepalm.  But a "Garrus, you know what they'd do to you given half an excuse?"

If asked, Garrus and Tali are not going to say they work for Cerberus. They're going to say they work for Shepard. There is a difference. If you define a situation as real, it becomes real in it's consequences. If one truly wants to understand why people do the things they do, one must take into account not only what is really going on in a particular situation but what people think is going on. Shepard doesn't have the Cerberus agenda - so he's not really Cerberus. It would be easy for them to feel like they're not really working for Cerberus. Easy to fool themselves essentially. On top of that, they drink the Shepard kool-aid which just seals the deal.

And no one really treats the suicide mission like a Cerberus mission at all. Shepard gets treated like the one calling the shots for the most part.

In the first conversation with Tali after Haestrom she'll make the statement, "I don't work for Cerberus I work for you, Shepard." (I don't quite remember how to get it, but I've definitely heard it). She has no reason to work for Cerberus otherwise. They'd recently attacked one of ships in the Migrant Fleet. TIM made an enemy of the Quarians. If Shepard wasn't leading the mission would she consider working with Cerberus? I don't think so. Would any of the aliens be there without Shepard?

Even Dr. Chakwas says she isn't working for Cerberus, but working for Shepard.  Joker is the only one seems okay from the former Normandy crew anyway on being with Cerberus.

Shepard asks Tali when she gets the message about her treason trial, "It is because your working with Cerberus."  Tali goes, "I got leave to serve on the Normandy again."  She also mentions she is working for Shepard during that exchange as well.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

[/i]If asked, Garrus and Tali are not going to say they work for Cerberus. They're going to say they work for Shepard. There is a difference. If you define a situation as real, it becomes real in it's consequences. If one truly wants to understand why people do the things they do, one must take into account not only what is really going on in a particular situation but what people think is going on. Shepard doesn't have the Cerberus agenda - so he's not really Cerberus. It would be easy for them to feel like they're not really working for Cerberus. Easy to fool themselves essentially. On top of that, they drink the Shepard kool-aid which just seals the deal.

I bolded this because it's a pretty important statement.  This is very true.  But for everyone invovled, including the VS, and Shepard.  Not just the people Shepard recruits.

The VS sees Shepard working for Cerberus.  But is he really?  Is he there for the Illusive Man or there for someone or something else?  What is Shepard's agenda?  What could convince Shepard to work alongside Cerberus?  By the same token, what could convince Cerberus to work alongside nonhumans, even if they are "there for Shepard"?

At the same time, Shepard has to consider his position.  He is working alongside Cerberus.  Shepard knows what Shepard's agenda is, but he's been out of the galactic scene for two years.  Who knows what people have done with his image?   What do people think is going on, from the outside looking in?

Ashley questions Shepard and especially Cerberus until she completes her report and Shep's story checks out. She doesn't trust Cerberus, but she knows he doesn't share their values and agenda. She never questioned his integrity.

What would convince Shepard to work with Cerberus? They've duped him into believing they're the only option.

What would convince Cerberus to work with aliens? They lack integrity and are willing to do anything to get what they want, even if it involves working with aliens, those damn aliens.

From the outside looking in? People probably think he's an Alliance traitor who faked his death to indulge his xenophobic inclinations. His image was clean after his death. He was the Alliance poster boy. And then he shows up with Cerberus...

[YouthCultureForever]

ladyvader wrote...

Even Dr. Chakwas says she isn't working for Cerberus, but working for Shepard.  Joker is the only one seems okay from the former Normandy crew anyway on being with Cerberus.

Shepard asks Tali when she gets the message about her treason trial, "It is because your working with Cerberus."  Tali goes, "I got leave to serve on the Normandy again."  She also mentions she is working for Shepard during that exchange as well.

Thanks for the evidence, I forgot about those things.

[YouthCultureForever]

@ladyvader

I think the Tali example supports my point. If she had told the Migrant Fleet that she was working with Cerberus they wouldn't be happy about it. They wouldn't give her their blessing to go off and work for a group that tried to blow up one of their ships. Because she says she works for Shepard her old commander who helped her complete her pilgrimage and all that jazz, its another matter altogether.

Chakwas also says she's not working for Cerberus, but for Shepard. Would she be there otherwise?

The crew believes in Shepard and his crusade and that causes them overlook Cerberus and what their real intentions might be. Shepard has one plan. It could turn out TIM has another. He has an advantage with Shepard on his side. Shep is a side-show, a distraction. TIM could easily get away with doing what he wants when everyone is enamored with Shepard and his save the galaxy routine. And then there's simply the fact it's Cerberus.

*I don't trust Cerberus. I believe there is something covert going on and we just haven't found out what yet.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 19 septembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[knightnblu]

First off, let me clear something up. I never wanted to work with Cerberus. I essentially had a gun put to my head and was forced into it. Secondly, I never trusted TIM. I always knew that he had an ulterior motive and that his agenda differed from mine. Third, TIM doesn't mind sacrificing the innocent to achieve his goals, I do. Somebody else may have seen TIM as a sugar daddy, I didn't. I knew who and what he was from the get go.
 
Therefore, please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that I was 'duped' or that I was 'arrogant' or that I was 'insert descriptor indicating stupidity here' because it isn't the truth. The entire time I was forced to work with Cerberus I was looking for a way out. It didn't come until after I blew the Collector base. This is because TIM sealed me up before I was even conscious and aware of anything.
 
I am positive that TIM began circulating rumors as soon as he heard from Miranda that I was nearing the completion of my resurrection. I say "resurrection" because I died. TIM took my cold, dead corpse and re-ignited the life of my body. It was a process that took two years. However this gave TIM the time he needed to destroy the trust and good will that I had earned.  He needed to do that in order to close off all possible escape routes from me and to isolate me from my allies. This emphasizes that TIM is a manipulator and a liar. He said that if I didn't find anything on Freedom's Progress or if I didn't like working for Cerberus that I could leave of my own free will. He said that knowing that he had shut down every possible path that I could take.
 
But I didn't run. Why? Because innocent lives depended on me doing my best to save them. My first stop after being turned loose was the Citadel. There I learned that both the Council and the Alliance either were doing nothing or could do noting to intervene in stopping the abductions. Where should I have gone next? Earth? The Salarians? The Asari? The Krogan? None of them could have helped me. The sole agency that could or would do anything to assist me was Cerberus and we all know the price that comes with that.
 
I sucked it up and did my job. You can call me naive if you want to or say that I have become a traitor if you feel like it, but I know what my motivations were and they have never changed: to protect and defend the peoples of the galaxy. In ME1 it included everyone. In ME2 it was just humanity because they were the ones under threat. In ME3 it will be every living soul in the galaxy once more.
 
I will continue to work toward those goals despite the recalcitrance of the Council or of the Alliance or even the opposition of my friends and loved ones. This is because my aims are greater than myself. They are even greater than my life. They are greater than the lives of my crew. If we fail, then we lose it all and that cannot be allowed to occur and I assure you, I shall not allow that to happen under any circumstances. I will fight and I will win single handedly if needs be, but the more who fight with me the more we can save.
 
Shepard
 
** Seems this thread had gotten busy! I will be posting a more direct response to the points brought up later :-)

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

Questioning is not an issue.  I totally agree.  And Shepard's responses are idiotic.  But in the end, his answers boil down to "colonies are being grabbed by the Collectors.  The Reapers are behind it all"  Which sounds (more or less) like the Shepard of old.  

One can question Shepard's wisdom in listening to Cerberus, of course.  Heck you can question his sanity.  The Council sure does.  But I would think that saving the galaxy once two years ago earns a little goodwill.  Because he might just be right again.  I would certainyl hold off on calling him a traitor until I was sure the coat had truly turned.

Heck even Tali admitted that at first she thought Shepard had infiltrated Cerberus with the intention of destroying them from the inside.

Again though the problem boils down to certain specific facts that can and do change Ash's perspective from Tali's and can and do give rise to the whole Shepard being a traitor issue.

While your off course right and Shepard's actions of 2 years previous would deserve goodwill, things get pretty clouded very early on in your encounter with Ash that do remove that goodwill, so i'll try and point these things out here.

1. The alliance, as a serving member of the alliance Ash would not just be opposed to cerberus based on personal experience as Tali is nor would she be opposed to them simply from a dogma standpoint, they are considered terrorists by both the alliance and council so she would also be opposed to them as a matter of duty.

2. Shepard while being a spectre is also still technically an alliance soldier particularly in Ash's eyes.

3. While we know Shepard's been dead for 2 years and has only just been resurrected, we also know that rumours have been spread about Shepard that Ash may be aware of.

4. Shepard has been resurrected some time, yet not only does he not seek out Ash as a matter of urgency but his reasoning for being on Horizon is not entirely connected to Ash either.(we know this is a game mechanic but in terms of how Ash is perceived we portray it as a real life situation and ignore the mechanics of how horizon was handled).

5. Shepards explanations, while yes his answers do boil down to how you portray them, its the flavour of those answers that rather than allieviate concerns only serve to inflame them and the situation at hand.

6. The amount of time that's passed since the last time Ash and Shepard were together, 2 years is a long time to a person, during that time a person would change somewhat, this has clearly happened with Ash simply because of the events she's gone through and how she's come to terms with those events, so while to shepard its been a small amount of time between meetings, to Ash its been the full 2 years.

7. If ash has changed then should she just assume that Shepard has not, that the man in front of her is the same man she once knew, could she dismiss the rumours that now seem to be true considering that Shepard is indeed working with cereberus.

8. Cerberus themselves and Shepard believing they represent the best hope to stop the collectors, doesn't that go against everything an alliance soldier should believe in,

9. While shepard may not have changed, Ash worries that he has and just doesn't realise it, have cerberus got him fooled or worse does shepard feel he owes them a debt for his ressurrection.


When you add all of these things into the equation you get a completely different perspective on Ash and her reaction on horizon imo.

From Ash's perspective:

Shepard has abandoned his beliefs to work with people she and people she trusts are vehemently opposed to, he's gone from someone who cares about his people (ash) to someone who doesn't give them a second thought, rather than explain or show that he hasn't completely changed he instead answers the questions and later the accusations in a way which doesn't remove doubt or worry.

If the relationship was romantic then this is even worse, as not only has Shepard perhaps abandoned his beliefs but he has also pretty much abandoned the person he supposedly was in love with also.

If you perceive someone to have abandoned what they supposedly believe in, if you perceive someone to have abandoned you personally then what would you call that person?

Would that person not in fact be considered a traitor in your eyes?

Think about how Ash puts it if she's romanced, you betrayed the alliance, Anderson, you betrayed me, if you believed that someone had betrayed the alliance (working with cerberus) had betrayed Anderson by doing the same thing and had also betrayed you (supposedly you believed the same things, supposedly you loved Ash) then isn't it right to consider that person a traitor?

Modifié par alperez, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[1136342t54_]

iakus wrote...
I did read it.  But just because Cerberus made them deals and Shepard sweet-talked them doesn't remove the fact that they are working with Cerberus.  This would be like humans working for the Batarian Hegemony.  A krogan freelancing for the STG.  Sure it could happen, but it would be an incredibly rare event.  One worthy of comment.  

And that's what should be going through Ash's mind.  Not a "Garrus, not you too" followed by a facepalm.  But a "Garrus, you know what they'd do to you given half an excuse?"

I still haven't read the entire thread so I just skipped to this one. While most of this have been discussed many times I just felt like I had to respond to this post.

Cerberus has worked with aliens before. There was even some evidence of it in ME1. Then Ascension even showed that Cerberus will work with Aliens. Also the Batarian Hegemony example won't necessarily work since they have technically used humans and other aliens to attack human colonies in a proxy war lol.

Also Garrus working with Cerberus isn't unlikely since Shepard could convince Garrus to do it. Ash didn't have an extreme reaction she just said "Garrus to?".

[1136342t54_]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ashley questions Shepard and especially Cerberus until she completes her report and Shep's story checks out. She doesn't trust Cerberus, but she knows he doesn't share their values and agenda. She never questioned his integrity.

What would convince Shepard to work with Cerberus? They've duped him into believing they're the only option.

In a way they were the only option.

What would convince Cerberus to work with aliens? They lack integrity and are willing to do anything to get what they want, even if it involves working with aliens, those damn aliens.

Not necessarily. Cerberus wants to advance humanity in everyway possible. By ignoring other species capabilities and not using for humanity would be stupid. In a way other species are tools.  That is probably how some groups see Cerberus and they use that knowledge to understand them.

From the outside looking in? People probably think he's an Alliance traitor who faked his death to indulge his xenophobic inclinations. His image was clean after his death. He was the Alliance poster boy. And then he shows up with Cerberus...

This is quite possible. It also shows to the galaxy that the best of humanity is really a terrorist (depending on their view point).

[RetroActiv]

All the girls are my girls on one save or another. I preferred Ashley to Liara. Shame the Liara romance plays into the story so much better and is the only one explored further in an expansion.

[Iakus]

alperez wrote...]

Again though the problem boils down to certain specific facts that can and do change Ash's perspective from Tali's and can and do give rise to the whole Shepard being a traitor issue.

While your off course right and Shepard's actions of 2 years previous would deserve goodwill, things get pretty clouded very early on in your encounter with Ash that do remove that goodwill, so i'll try and point these things out here.

1. The alliance, as a serving member of the alliance Ash would not just be opposed to cerberus based on personal experience as Tali is nor would she be opposed to them simply from a dogma standpoint, they are considered terrorists by both the alliance and council so she would also be opposed to them as a matter of duty.

2. Shepard while being a spectre is also still technically an alliance soldier particularly in Ash's eyes.

3. While we know Shepard's been dead for 2 years and has only just been resurrected, we also know that rumours have been spread about Shepard that Ash may be aware of.

4. Shepard has been resurrected some time, yet not only does he not seek out Ash as a matter of urgency but his reasoning for being on Horizon is not entirely connected to Ash either.(we know this is a game mechanic but in terms of how Ash is perceived we portray it as a real life situation and ignore the mechanics of how horizon was handled).

5. Shepards explanations, while yes his answers do boil down to how you portray them, its the flavour of those answers that rather than allieviate concerns only serve to inflame them and the situation at hand.

6. The amount of time that's passed since the last time Ash and Shepard were together, 2 years is a long time to a person, during that time a person would change somewhat, this has clearly happened with Ash simply because of the events she's gone through and how she's come to terms with those events, so while to shepard its been a small amount of time between meetings, to Ash its been the full 2 years.

7. If ash has changed then should she just assume that Shepard has not, that the man in front of her is the same man she once knew, could she dismiss the rumours that now seem to be true considering that Shepard is indeed working with cereberus.

8. Cerberus themselves and Shepard believing they represent the best hope to stop the collectors, doesn't that go against everything an alliance soldier should believe in,

9. While shepard may not have changed, Ash worries that he has and just doesn't realise it, have cerberus got him fooled or worse does shepard feel he owes them a debt for his ressurrection.

1) True.  And Shepard personally led the attack on a number of Cerberus bases.  He may very well have been the victim of one of their excperiments.  Isn't it odd that now he's leading them into battle?

2)  Shepard's status as a Spectre or Alliance soldier never really came up on Horizon (well, save for teh "You betrayed the Alliance biy).  Might have been nice to bring up Spectre reinstatement though.

3) RIght.  The rumors must be something awful.  More than just  a Cerberus decoder ring.

4) This is why I always picked the "I was in a coma" response.  It's the...least bad...repsonse.  Given my Shepard asks about her every chance the game permitted.

5) Believe me I'd love to be able to give some of the responses Shepard gave Garrus and Tali about he doesn't trust Cerberus.  Nevertheless SHepard's responses (the ones I gave at least) don't reflect any belief in Cerberus' ideologies.  Only that at this juncture we're both poointed in teh same direction

6) Perfect description for the need for a VS dlc.  Similar complaints were voiced about Liara until we got LOTSB and got to see how she'd been spending the last two yeears of her life.  Ash may have changed, but we have yet to see how.  

Well, except that she now favors tight blue outfits instead of armor and wearing her hair in her face while shooting /sarcasm

7)  Again, I think the rumors are the key.  See idea I floated on rumor that Shepard led the SR1 into a trap.

8)  Not so long ago Ash helped Shepard defy both the Alliance and the CItadel Council.

9)  That is the best arguement Ash gave, and she really should have focused on it.  The brief time she touched on it, even I as the player paused for a moment to consider the possibility.

From Ash's perspective:

Shepard has abandoned his beliefs to work with people she and people she trusts are vehemently opposed to, he's gone from someone who cares about his people (ash) to someone who doesn't give them a second thought, rather than explain or show that he hasn't completely changed he instead answers the questions and later the accusations in a way which doesn't remove doubt or worry.

If the relationship was romantic then this is even worse, as not only has Shepard perhaps abandoned his beliefs but he has also pretty much abandoned the person he supposedly was in love with also.

If you perceive someone to have abandoned what they supposedly believe in, if you perceive someone to have abandoned you personally then what would you call that person?

Would that person not in fact be considered a traitor in your eyes?

Think about how Ash puts it if she's romanced, you betrayed the alliance, Anderson, you betrayed me, if you believed that someone had betrayed the alliance (working with cerberus) had betrayed Anderson by doing the same thing and had also betrayed you (supposedly you believed the same things, supposedly you loved Ash) then isn't it right to consider that person a traitor?

Ah, but these are people Shepard has no reason to trust either.  He has been every bit as "vehement" in opposing them as well.  This is a cause Shepard may oppose every bit as strongly as Ash.  Maybe more so, depending on events in ME1.

What would I say about someone who seems to abandon such beliefs?  I do not know.  Maybe this person was tricked, or controlled.  Maybe he's an imposter, or even insane.  I would hesitate to use "traitor" though.  Because Shepard never (in my playthoughs) said anything in sympathy for Cerberus either as a group or in their policies.  Nor did anything in word or deed to harm the Alliance or the Council.    Certainly none of this while on Horizon.

Ash being concerned that Shepard's obsession with the Reapers may be leading him down an extreme path is a reasonable concern.  But barring something in the rumors, Shepard had given no indication that he has acted in any treasonable manner to the Alliance, save perhaps in agreeing to work with Cerberus in a very limited manner.  He makes it clear in every manner the game allows that this is not an alliance he desires.  Though granted the game doesn't allow much much dialogue in that sense.

[Iakus]

1136342t54 wrote...

iakus wrote...
I did read it.  But just because Cerberus made them deals and Shepard sweet-talked them doesn't remove the fact that they are working with Cerberus.  This would be like humans working for the Batarian Hegemony.  A krogan freelancing for the STG.  Sure it could happen, but it would be an incredibly rare event.  One worthy of comment.  

And that's what should be going through Ash's mind.  Not a "Garrus, not you too" followed by a facepalm.  But a "Garrus, you know what they'd do to you given half an excuse?"

I still haven't read the entire thread so I just skipped to this one. While most of this have been discussed many times I just felt like I had to respond to this post.

Cerberus has worked with aliens before. There was even some evidence of it in ME1. Then Ascension even showed that Cerberus will work with Aliens. Also the Batarian Hegemony example won't necessarily work since they have technically used humans and other aliens to attack human colonies in a proxy war lol.

Also Garrus working with Cerberus isn't unlikely since Shepard could convince Garrus to do it. Ash didn't have an extreme reaction she just said "Garrus to?".

I don't recall any sign of that in ME1.  And I've only read Revelation as far as the books go, so I can't comment on that.

Ash's reactiopn should have been more extreme because Garrus, of all people should know better.  He knows what Cerberus does, especially to nonhumans, and he goes along with Shepard anyway.  In a real sense, that makes him even crazier than Shepard.

Yes I know he's "there for Shepard" But at some point, that's not enough.  As Ash and Kaidan prove.

[jtav]

I don't know who I'll choose in ME3. This particular Shep bonded with Ash over being military brats and sole survivors of their units. Maybe he could keep something good in his life for once. And then Horizon happens. He regards it as a huge betrayal. Didn't she trust him? Shouldn't she of all people know about doing necessary things the Alliance would call treason?He still cares for hear, but mostly there's pain and rage. And, hey, he's going to die. Might as well have sex with the hot Cerberus officer. Only now, there are real feelings there too. And he doesn't die.

I don't bear Ash ill will. But it's complicated for Shep.

[knightnblu]

alperez - People do not transform their personality in two years. That is not to say that a man's fundamental nature cannot be changed, but it takes an extraordinary and powerful event to do so. While one could argue that death and the Cerberus rebuild was that trigger, but I find it highly unlikely given that Shepard has no memory of the event, with the only exception being when he awakened and saw Miranda and the med tech for the first time. That being said, where was the psychological trauma that would have triggered such an event? There was none. That dog don't hunt.
 
Secondly, why does everyone give Ashley a pass? I have admitted, as have others, that Shepard was no silver tongued devil and that his dialog stinks in ice. Shepard has been accused of being a Cerberus fan boy and a dupe, but the one thing that never gets any attention whatsoever is that it only takes Williams two minutes and forty-five seconds to write off the man that she said she loved. She hasn't seen him in two years and according to some of the posts on this thread, she nearly grieved herself to death for the man. But it took less than three minutes to trash him. Explain that one.
 
Another thing, is Ashley a little girl or a hardened combat NCO? Either she is combat tough or she isn't. You cannot say that she was overcome with emotions and her combat savvy went on hiatus. Such a person is not likely to be brought down by emotions in a combat zone and Horizon was such a place. It isn't that such a person is incapable of being overcome with emotion, but that they usually wait until they can get someplace safe to let loose. It is a survival issue with combat experienced troops.
 
We have seen Ashley emerge as the sole survivor of her unit, we have seen her as Lt. Alenko was killed on Vrmire, and we have never seen her lose it. That chick may be wound tighter than a ten day clock, but control is her middle name and if she can write off the man she claims to be in love with in less than three minutes, she isn't fouled up as bad as you make her out to be, particularly given her past experiences with us both in and out of combat.
 
Personally, I believe that such arguments are an insult to her character. She is no prim and proper missy in an evening gown waiting to go to cotillion. She is a combat vet and an NCO and she is one tough grunt. Let's treat her like one.
 
 
YouthCultureForever  - "1. First of all Ashley is your lover. Not your old crusty superior. Her reaction is going to be more intense than Hackett or Anderson's. Ash has shared her values with Shepard, given him insight into her character, given her body to him, the whole nine yards. In western culture today romantic relationships are viewed as partnerships, and the people in the relationship are equals. This relationship isn't modeled on superior - subordinate relations. So you can't compare a father - daughter relationship or an officer - subordinate realationship to a modern day romantic relationship. The expectations are different."
 
Not so, see the three paragraphs above.
"So Shepard shouldn't feel he's above questioning because he was her commanding officer. If he wanted to keep things professional he shouldn't have gotten romantically involved with her. You can't have it both ways. Rigid military curtesy flew out the door when Shepard broke the regs and crossed that boundary. Romance complicated everything. The relationship is no longer a superior - subordinate model"
 
He doesn't. He feels that he is above being called a traitor by the woman he romanced and who will not now listen to him. I am not looking for it "both ways." I know how my association with Cerberus looks. I am not an idiot. But neither do I expect the woman who claims to love me, to blow me off in under three minutes like she was shooting for a Guinness world record.
 
Further, she never even bothered to explore what I was trying to tell her. She basically did a "talk to the hand' kind of thing and split. But before she left she accused me of treason, but that was a nice parting gift after not seeing her for two years. God, I feel loved.
 
"So Shepard shouldn't feel he's above questioning because he was her commanding officer"
 
 Honestly dude, I don't know where you get this, but I never wrote it.

Modifié par knightnblu, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:05 .