1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

I don't see how you can dismiss that. Freedom's Progress was the first investigation that turned up anything useful. Cerberus was beat to the scene every other time by somebody else. If they don't get there first they have no solid leads.

I think the game would have been way more interesting and more realistic if the Alliance had gotten there before Cerberus. The investigators probably wouldn't have told Shepard anything, so he would have had go to Anderson to find out what was going on and essentially there could have been a choice. Keep working for Cerberus or go back to the Alliance. Cerberus shouldn't be on top just because the plot demands it.

It's been my contention that Tali's initial reaction to Shepard on Freedom's Progress was far better than the VS's on Horizon.  Really, Shep should have found Ash and some Alliance marines on Freedom's Progress and have her cameo be there, and meet Tali for the first time on Haestrom.  

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

I don't see how you can dismiss that. Freedom's Progress was the first investigation that turned up anything useful. Cerberus was beat to the scene every other time by somebody else. If they don't get there first they have no solid leads.

I think the game would have been way more interesting and more realistic if the Alliance had gotten there before Cerberus. The investigators probably wouldn't have told Shepard anything, so he would have had go to Anderson to find out what was going on and essentially there could have been a choice. Keep working for Cerberus or go back to the Alliance. Cerberus shouldn't be on top just because the plot demands it.

It's been my contention that Tali's initial reaction to Shepard on Freedom's Progress was far better than the VS's on Horizon.  Really, Shep should have found Ash and some Alliance marines on Freedom's Progress and have her cameo be there, and meet Tali for the first time on Haestrom.  

She'd certainly have alot more reason to believe that Shepard and Cerberus are legitimate. Yeah, that would have been way better.

EDIT: There would still be the whole "How did you end up working for Cerberus?" and "Why would you think that's OK?" issue. But at least she would know from the start Cerberus wasn't directly involved in the disapperance of the colonies. That would clear up some suspicions.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever -
 
Cerberus has always been human supremacist. I have no doubt that they would earnestly seek to stop massive human abductions in the Terminus. However, TIM knows what Reaper technology is, knows its dangers, but wants to use it to catapult human technology to the Reaper level. When it comes to saving a few colonies or obtaining that technology, I have no doubts that he would sacrifice millions to obtain it. However, if he could do both, then he would most certainly adopt that path. This is why he needs Shepard.
 
Shepard is the only person who has defeated a Reaper. That is what got him noticed by Cerberus and by the Geth. Further, TIM isn't known for wasting potential. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Cerberus troops we are going to have to kill are Shepard's clones. TIM is cagey and I don't doubt for a second that he has a plan b, c, ect. How do you restart the human race from scratch? You can store genetic material sufficient to restart the human race in a surprisingly small package. What is needed, is a means to create new humans and the answer to that was provided by the experiments performed on Cmdr. Shepard when he was the primary for Project Lazarus.
 
TIM intended to perform these experiments in the first place, re-animating Shepard was just a bonus. In short, while Shepard's death was unexpected his untimely demise fitted perfectly with TIM's plans. The rumors circulated about Shepard was not personal, but TIM needed to maintain control of his asset and needed to shut down any paths to true freedom if Shepard proved to be difficult to handle. Thus, TIM insured that Shepard had nowhere to go before he even opened his eyes.
 
What you need to understand is that the Alliance has been penetrated and is infiltrated with Cerberus and SB operatives. I would assume that the Alliance is in the same position as was MI-5 when Philby was active for the Soviets. As such, everything that the Alliance has going on is known to both organizations with Cerberus having primacy. This is why in ME3, Shepard cannot trust the Alliance with the possible exception of the 5th fleet.
 
I expect that when ME3 arrives, we will be treated to a rather intriguing exploration of the tendrils of Cerberus within the Alliance and that Miranda will prove an asset in that exploration. At least, that is what I am hoping.

[alperez]

knightnblu wrote...

 
First, people do change. Their viewpoints change, their tastes change, their hairstyles change, but their core values do not change. At least, not generally speaking. If this were true, it would be impossible to know anyone because their personality would be morphing constantly as would their core values and beliefs.
 
Of all of the people that truly know Shepard, Williams has got to have the number one position (Mother Shepard aside). Williams would have known Shepard's values, his motivations, his dreams. If she didn't, then I have no idea how she could have loved him. Unless she loved him like somebody loves chocolate. If it is indeed true that Ashley did indeed love Shepard, then how could she believe that his core principles had changed so dramatically?
 
While it is certainly possible that TIM had been hard at work ruining Shep's reputation back home and passing off false rumors as intel (as I assert that he did) then Ashley's concern is justified. But concern is not slamming the door in Shepard's face. Williams only had to hear "Cerberus" and it is game over, thank you for playing. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. It is far too quick and way out of character for Ash.
 
If you are correct, then that means that Ashley believes that Shepard's core values, his essence if you will, has done a 180 and he is now the same vile filth that work happily for Cerberus in her mind. How did she arrive at this conclusion? According to Williams, she was told by Alliance Intel certain rumors about Cerberus and Shepard being responsible for abducting the missing colonies. It is likely that there are more and worse rumors circulating about Shepard as well, all courtesy of TIM.
 
Is it any wonder why I want to feed that guy to a wood chipper?
 

The problem here is you accept that people change but refuse to accept that not only would this alter a person's perspective of another but it completely ignores the situation at hand also.

You say Ash should know Shepard, she should accept that shepard is doing what he's doing for the best reasons and should just ignore everything else and give shepard the benefit of any doubt.

But examine the evidence firstly, rumours have been spread about Shepard, shepard then turns up working with/for Cerberus, he then claims badly that he is the same person and Ash should know this, i'm sorry but that's a red flag right there.

If your told something is true, see it for your own eyes to be true and then your told by someone what you see isn't exactly true, what would you believe?

Events change people and the events Ash has gone through clearly have affected her, you then add in the emotional aspect of a reunion with someone you believed was dead (and while we may disagree on emotions, the simple fact is a return of someone you believed had died is an emotional event) then to top it all off you add in the rumours and the scene right before your eyes seemingly confirming those rumours.

When your head tells you one thing and you heart tells you another, which do you accept as true?

Do you just ignore everything you've heard about Shepard up to that point and ignore what looks like confirming it before your very eyes, no you question and judge based on the response your given, which is exactly what Ash in fact does on Horizon.

Re-watch the scene in its entirety, you can clearly see its Shepard's responses which actually force Ash's hand, she questions and the answers she's given rather than calm her fears do the opposite and inflame them.

I beg to differ with you. She is not happy, she is furious. Shepard can tell immediately that Ashley is not right. He can tell this from the tone of her voice, her mannerisms, her hesitation before the embrace. He knows her, and it is blatantly obvious. That one fact alone is way strange. She claims to love this man, believed him dead, heard some rumors regarding him and up he pops two years later and she is...pissed? That is non sequitur. Had she been happy followed by pissed, then all would have been right in the world. She was stone cold pissed off from jump street as soon as she saw him.
 

Again you really need to rewatch the scene, her intial reaction is to praise Shepard and if romanced embrace him, not the actions of someone she's already decided that she doesn't believe, yes there is some hesitation in the embrace but her first response shows exactly why this is the case.

She believed he was dead, which he isn't, she's upset that for 2 years he let her believe that and that he didn't try to contact her, the reluctance in the embrace is a natural one for someone questioning whether she meant as much to shepard as he did to her.

At this point, she still remember has no idea about Shepard's ressurrection, so what exactly do you think she believes right then and there, that shepard's been in a coma for 2 years and has only just awoke or that for 2 years shepard's been alive and well and for some reason decided not to contact her and let her know?

Yes Shepard can see she's angry or upset this is clear, but rather than assuage that anger or comfort that upset he infact inflames it simply by his response.

Again its Shepard's response's which start the slippery slope that leads to how events play out on horizon.
 

She didn't send that emailed abortion because she had time to reflect, she sent it because Anderson confirmed what Shepard had told her. And even after that, she could only muster a tepid apology for calling Shepard a traitor to his face, insulting his intelligence, calling him a liar, and abandoning him emotionally. How does that crap she sent by email make up for all of that? It doesn't. Not by a long shot.
 
The only way I will take Ashley back is if she is standing tall, front and center and gives me a credible explanation for her psychosis in Horizon. She was woman enough to **** me out on Horizon, she can be woman enough to explain herself to me. Otherwise she can get her ass off of my ship (presuming of course that I am in command of anything and that BioWare actually gives me this option). Somehow I doubt that I will actually be able to do that, but I would dearly love to have that option and you can bet your bottom dollar that I would certainly use it. Hell, I would even buy that option as DLC so that I can give her the boot.
 
It is surprising to me that I am still hot about what happened on Horizon, but I guess that her malfunction cut deeper than I thought. Which is the sign of a great RPG if you look at the effect it has upon you. As another poster asked me, it isn't that I don't want her back it's how she handled Horizon that rankles. If she is going to serve with me than she has to fix what she fouled up and convince me that she can still be trusted because she squandered all of the trust I had for her on Horizon.
 
As far as the emotionalism goes, that is your opinion and we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point my friend.

The e-mail was a tentative first step in repairing the relationship, seriously have you ever said or did something to someone and wonder if they could every forgive you?

As for it being prompted because Anderson confirmed what Shepard had told her, if i remember correctly its what Ash tells Anderson that confirms Shepard's story and not the other way round.

You seem to be so upset at your perception of Ash's slight on Shepard that your taking it personally and ignoring any opinion or reasoning that disagrees with your own, you've basically made your mind up that no matter what all the fault with Horizon lies firmly at Ash's door and nothing less than a grovelling apology from her would suffice to restore her in your favors.

Which to me i'm sorry is an inflexible attitude, fault lies equally between Shepard and Ash for how horizon played out, shepard's responses and actions up to that point in the game are why things get so clearly out of hand and why imo Ash handled things as badly as she did.

My problem isn't actually Ash on horizon, i found her attitude and stance to be completely in character and in line with the information presented at that point, my problem lies instead with how Shepard handled it and with how other characters then acted later.

Tali and Garrus get off scot free simply because they accept Shepards explanation and abandon whatever principles they have and blindly follow Shepard, yes Shepard does get to give a clearer reason why working with cerberus is a neccessarry evil, but to me this is the biggest gripe i have with me2.

By shoehorning us to work with cerberus, despite whatever reservations we may have, despite whatever backround our shepard comes from, then by creating the scenario where some but not all of our old crew will join with us, we're given a flawed perception of people and events, characters and shepard in particular seem off which of course could be another reason i have no problem with Ash on horizon.

Ash at least said what i wanted my Shepard to say, she acted like i expected her to act from my playthrough of me1 where i romanced her, shepard and some others however did not.

Modifié par alperez, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:00 .

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

Cerberus has always been human supremacist. I have no doubt that they would earnestly seek to stop massive human abductions in the Terminus. However, TIM knows what Reaper technology is, knows its dangers, but wants to use it to catapult human technology to the Reaper level. When it comes to saving a few colonies or obtaining that technology, I have no doubts that he would sacrifice millions to obtain it. However, if he could do both, then he would most certainly adopt that path. This is why he needs Shepard.

Yeah, I know why TIM uses Shepard. I don't question his logic, it fits in with his character. It's Shepard and his inability to understand he's being used I don't like. It's obivious TIM is up to something after the Collector ship mission. Shepard even says its a set up and, "The same ship dogging me for 2 years. That can't be a coincidence." He puts 1+1 together, why not 2+2? He's already asked the right questions and made smart observations, "You could have built an army with what you spent to bring me back. Why'd you do it?" and, "Fighting a war, that doesn't sound like Cerberus." He should have figured out their scheme early on, figured out they were lying to him about being the only solution, and had the option to walk away.

Shepard is the only person who has defeated a Reaper. That is what got him noticed by Cerberus and by the Geth. Further, TIM isn't known for wasting potential. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Cerberus troops we are going to have to kill are Shepard's clones. TIM is cagey and I don't doubt for a second that he has a plan b, c, ect. How do you restart the human race from scratch? You can store genetic material sufficient to restart the human race in a surprisingly small package. What is needed, is a means to create new humans and the answer to that was provided by the experiments performed on Cmdr. Shepard when he was the primary for Project Lazarus.
 
TIM intended to perform these experiments in the first place, re-animating Shepard was just a bonus. In short, while Shepard's death was unexpected his untimely demise fitted perfectly with TIM's plans.

What you need to understand is that the Alliance has been penetrated and
is infiltrated with Cerberus and SB operatives. I would assume that the
Alliance is in the same position as was MI-5 when Philby was active for
the Soviets. As such, everything that the Alliance has going on is
known to both organizations with Cerberus having primacy. This is why in
ME3, Shepard cannot trust the Alliance with the possible exception of
the 5th fleet.

That's an interesting theory. I have my own theory about TIM, but I don't think he'd dismantle a powerful weapon and sacrifice the immediate benefits of having it for another questionable ressurection project that humanity might never reap the rewards of. Not to mention the resources needed to do that. Sounded like Cerberus was running out during the Lazarus Project.

The rumors circulated about Shepard was not personal, but TIM needed to maintain control of his asset and needed to shut down any paths to true freedom if Shepard proved to be difficult to handle. Thus, TIM insured that Shepard had nowhere to go before he even opened his eyes.

If Shepard had said told Cerberus they were full of it and went to Anderson in the begining, the Alliance wouldn't have turned him away. If he had sought them out, they wouldn't write him off. Not their biggest hero. And as far as I know the only rumor about Shepard is he's not dead and he's working with Cerberus.
 

I expect that when ME3 arrives, we will be treated to a rather intriguing exploration of the tendrils of Cerberus within the Alliance and that Miranda will prove an asset in that exploration. At least, that is what I am hoping.

Yeah, I think their relationship will be explored and Miranda could be used as the informer. I just hope she tell us what kind of magical tech was installed in Shepard.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 21 septembre 2011 - 08:53 .

[knightnblu]

alperez said "If your told something is true, see it for your own eyes to be true and then your told by someone what you see isn't exactly true, what would you believe?"
 
I really think that we are talking about two very different things. I speak of a fundamental change in a person's personality. That is a very profound change and it takes something very extraordinary in order to change it. Each individual is imprinted with the personality that they will bear by their parents at around age two. From that point on it is reinforced by example and by education. By the time that a person reaches maturity their personality is usually set in stone. This is why women are told don't bother trying to change the man you are going to marry, because it cannot be done. At least, not by her.
 
What you are arguing, at least as I understand it, is that Ashley believes that Shepard has changed fundamentally. In essence, he is no longer the man that she knew and has become something entirely different.
 
My response to that is that she should have known better, especially since she claims to have been in love with the man. At least, is she is not deluding herself about love. Oftentimes, the sweetest lies are the ones that we tell ourselves.
 
You asked me, "If your told something is true, see it for your own eyes to be true and then your told by someone what you see isn't exactly true, what would you believe?"
 
That depends on who I trust more. If the person telling me that something is true is trusted more than the person telling me that it isn't true, then I go with the first. In fact, I have been on the point of that dilemma three times in my life. Twice it went the way I believed and once it surprised me. Believe me, when I say "surprise," I mean that it came like a thunderbolt out of the sky. All I could do was to pick my jaw up off of the ground and carry on.
 
I have placed my life in another's hands and had them place their life in mine. That builds a trust you cannot imagine unless you have experienced it. That is the trust that I see between Shepard and Williams. They had been there and come out alive despite the odds against it. For something to breach a trust of that magnitude, it would have to be Earth shattering. I just didn't see that from Ashley's position and I still don't.
 
In my mind, she believed the rumors over the man that she had said she loved. If that isn't a betrayal then I don't have any idea what a betrayal is.
 
You also ask, "When your head tells you one thing and you heart tells you another, which do you accept as true?"
 
In case you hadn't noticed, I am an idealist. I believe in honor, integrity, that good always triumph's over evil, that people are basically good. These are the notions that were recently highlighted in the movie "Second Hand Lions." In it, on of the leads says to the boy, that there are things that a man should believe in, even if they aren't true. Because those are the things worth believing in.
Of the two, I choose to go with my heart and my intuition. More especially in regards to friends and the people that have fought by my side. I do not say that I will never be disappointed by these people, in fact that has already occurred. But that is not what is important, it is only important that we continue to believe and to guide our hearts to the truth as best we can.
 
If we do not stand steadfastly to our core principles and values, then what will we stand for? Where do we draw the line?  Today, most people can no longer even recognize evil for what it is because they are incapable of making a moral judgment anymore. But this has grown philosophical and I shall relent from any further discussion of it.
 
"She believed he was dead, which he isn't, she's upset that for 2 years he let her believe that and that he didn't try to contact her, the reluctance in the embrace is a natural one for someone questioning whether she meant as much to shepard as he did to her."
 
You really need to read the story I posted above about how I became lost as a little boy and related my mother's reaction. I believe it to be telling. At no point during the meeting between the two was Ashley ecstatic that her love had returned from the dead. However, unlike Orpheus would have been if Eurydice had succeeded in returning form the grave, she was not glad to have him back. She was pissed. I have watched that video more than twenty times and have analyzed it for tone, pitch, facial expression, and I am very familiar with it. Shepard even remarks that she is not right. I believe that he would know.
 
 
"Yes Shepard can see she's angry or upset this is clear, but rather than assuage that anger or comfort that upset he infact inflames it simply by his response."
 
While I most certainly agree that Shepard did not have the best lines to assuage her anger (primarily because it was determined by BioWare that he wouldn't in order to cause a rift between the two) she nevertheless would not have listened. He said, "Ash, you know me. You know that I would never work with Cerberus except for the right reasons." It is an appeal that fell on deaf ears because she had already made up her mind. As soon as Shepard mentioned "Cerberus" Ashley closed the book on him. Done.
 
"By shoehorning us to work with cerberus, despite whatever reservations we may have, despite whatever backround our shepard comes from, then by creating the scenario where some but not all of our old crew will join with us, we're given a flawed perception of people and events, characters and shepard in particular seem off which of course could be another reason i have no problem with Ash on horizon."
 
But I do. For reasons that I have iterated numerous times. I didn't like being tied to Cerberus against my will either. I wanted out some kind of bad, but could find no way out. I just sucked it up and did my job. I do not fault Williams for being suspicious, nor do I fault her for voicing her concerns. I fault her for abandoning me on Horizon like she never knew me.
iakus - You said that Williams wasn't told by Anderson that Shepard's story checks out, but I beg to differ with you on that. Yes, she completed her investigation and reported back to the Citadel. Anderson had one piece of the puzzle and Williams brought the remaining pieces. That is why I say that Anderson's judgment about Shepard is what caused dawn to break over marble head with Williams.
 
It wasn't the result of her investigation that was directly responsible for her returning to her senses, it was Anderson's word that caused her to re-evaluate her position on her former lover and send that crappy emailed apology.
 
Unless I am missing something?
 
 
YouthCultureForever - "Sounded like Cerberus was running out during the Lazarus Project."
 
The SR2 and Shepard's resurrection were "significant" investments, not a total investment. Have you seen all that spanking new hardware that Cerberus is sporting in the ME3 trailers? Yeah, TIM's solvent.
 
 
"If Shepard had said told Cerberus they were full of it and went to Anderson in the begining, the Alliance wouldn't have turned him away. If he had sought them out, they wouldn't write him off. Not their biggest hero. And as far as I know the only rumor about Shepard is he's not dead and he's working with Cerberus."
 
 
Don't believe that. There is no way in hell that TIM would risk losing Shepard to the Alliance as soon as he got off of that table. The Salarian Councilor said that the rumors about him were disturbing, the Alliance wanted to arrest and interrogate him, and Ashley could barely stand to look at him. There is much more going on behind the scenes that we are unaware of. That, you can believe.

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

The SR2 and Shepard's resurrection were "significant" investments, not a total investment. Have you seen all that spanking new hardware that Cerberus is sporting in the ME3 trailers? Yeah, TIM's solvent.

Yeah, now I really wish TIM had run out of funds. I guess that spending spree finally means the end of the Cerberus money train.

Don't believe that. There is no way in hell that TIM would risk losing Shepard to the Alliance as soon as he got off of that table. The Salarian Councilor said that the rumors about him were disturbing, the Alliance wanted to arrest and interrogate him, and Ashley could barely stand to look at him. There is much more going on behind the scenes that we are unaware of. That, you can believe.

I've never saved the Council so I don't what the Salarian Counciler said, but I'd bet what he finds disturbing is one of their elite handpicked Spectres is working for a human supremist group and well, he's an alien. Hackett says no to bringing Shepard in as a criminal. If Shepard comes back to the Alliance on his own good, but he shoots down an arrest and interrogation. And when it comes to Ash we fundamentally disagree on everything.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 22 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[1136342t54_]

YouthCultureForever wrote...
If Cerberus was really worried about the colonies they would have raised an army, not gambled on a dead soldier. They would have sprung into action a long time ago. Their main interest wasn't protecting the colonies, thus they were never the best option to save them.

Why wouldn't they bring back to life a soldier who has a large amount of experience fighting the Reapers? Hell they likely realize the Reapers will be coming soon and they will need someone who is able to lead the rest of the galaxy. Shepard is a hero to everyone. Even  those who don't like Shep still knows that he is very very useful.

The colonies was what sparked there interest in fighting the Collectors in the first place. Hell they even stated it. 

Do you think I'm arguing because they were interested in the colonies and wanted to stop it they are somehow good? That isn't correct at all. They wanted to save the Colonies and then when they were sure the Reapers were involved fighting the Reapers would save the colonies and help them gain valuable tech.

 
I don't see how you can dismiss that. Freedom's Progress was the first investigation that turned up anything useful. Cerberus was beat to the scene every other time by somebody else. If they don't get there first they have no solid leads.

Your point is? Cerberus made it there first if the STG or even the Alliance really wanted to get there they probably would have. Hell we only hear about the STG getting involved until after the Freedoms Progress mission. The fact remains no official Council or Alliance even knew about the attack.

I think the game would have been way more interesting and more realistic if the Alliance had gotten there before Cerberus. The investigators probably wouldn't have told Shepard anything, so he would have had go to Anderson to find out what was going on and essentially there could have been a choice. Keep working for Cerberus or go back to the Alliance. Cerberus shouldn't be on top just because the plot demands it.

This seems to be the crux of the matter. You would like this to have happened but it didn't. The Council (including Alliance) are already so damn busy trying to secure the Galaxy with a smaller fleet than they had before. Any direct intervention into another threat would mean that they have another problem on their hands that they can't take care of. They have likely been preparing for a war behind the scenes but regarding the Colonies there just isn't enough commitment to go out and actually spend billions of  credits to investigate those attacks and make a ship specifically for fighting the Collectors (thats assuming they find out it is the Collectors).

Why do you think Cerberus is the only organization with Reaper tech? They salvaged it from Sovereign, plenty of other groups could have done the same and have Reaper tech too.

Don't put words into my mouth I never said Cerberus is the only organization with Reaper tech in fact we have been shown that the Turians have weapons tech. Plus you are assuming that the Council actually have Reaper AI data. If they did it would be proof that Sovereign isn't a ship or one that the Geth could even create. Cerberus has Reaper AI data and actually researched ways to use it and improve their AIs. The Salarians seems to know more about indoctrination then actual Reaper AI.

TIM has manipulated the entire situation, they have the resources like the IFF because they stole intel. Cerberus is the only one who can take out the Collector base timely because thats all they've been ploting to do. It was all just part of scheme to net the Collector Base, not save the colonies.

So Cerberus knew the Collectors were going to attack the Colonies before they were even attacked and they exactly which Colonies would be hit even though they had to wait until a few colonies to find evidence of it and were surprised by it. Also it seems that Cerberus only recently found the Reaper vessel. Plus they knew it was a Collector Base even though TIM even thought it was a planet behind the Relay only EDI and Mordin even predicted a base.

It was an Alliance science team that determined it was an old mass accelerator that created the crater on whatever planet they were studying. Once he learned this, TIM sent a team to find the weapon and it's target. Basically, he told them to find it before the Alliance could investigate any further. I can't give Cerberus sole credit for the Reaper IFF. They stole that tech before the Alliance had a chance at it.

Thats not stealing it no one had a claim to the technology. The Alliance knew where the weapon was but didn't know where the Reaper was. That isn't stealing anything.

Originally, I said they used aliens because lacked integrity. You said, "Not nessicarily."  I'm trying to explain that they do lack integrity and use everybody any way they can.

That's not lacking integrity.  That's basically saying the President lacks integrity because he use the US military for certain high risk situations.

[Xilizhra]

He has so much faith that he brought Shepard back from the dead to fight this war.

And test-drive the Lazarus technology. Shepard was just the most important person around, and someone for whom the cost might be justified.

No, "true love conquers death" uplifting story isn't about Ashley at all.

You think TIM loves Shepard?
You think TIM is capable of love at all? Of caring about any individual as anything more than a tool?

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

You think TIM loves Shepard?
You think TIM is capable of love at all? Of caring about any individual as anything more than a tool?

Not directed at me but..

1) Obviously not. He wants Shepard dead in ME3.

2) Yes to the first part. No one can question that TIM loves humanity. As for individuals, I don't know. He's had Miranda around for a long time, maybe he cares about her?

[knightnblu]

laecraft said - "Actually, Cerberus was nearly destroyed after ME2 by the combined Anderson - turians attack. It happened because a traitor uploaded all the data he had on Cerberus to the Alliance. TIM himself barely escaped with his life, thanks to his most faithful and capable minion. TIM's crucial to the war effort work on extracting data from the Reaper tech was interrupted to near disastrous results, and he barely managed to do damage control and turn the situation to everyone's advantage. He lost almost everything. Between Retribution and ME3, TIM is scrambling to rebuild his fallen little empire from scratch, to ensure that he can continue fighting the Reapers as he did before, as the imminent deadline of the Reapers invasion is getting closer and closer."
 
 
Ok, that's it. I'm reading the books.

[nelly21]

Xilizhra wrote...

And test-drive the Lazarus technology. Shepard was just the most important person around, and someone for whom the cost might be justified.

Doesn't matter. Even if it was just a "test drive" (which nothing in game indicates that the Lazarus Project was anything but an attempt to bring specifically Shep back) the project brought back the only living organic that has fought and defeated a Reaper. I understand that a lot of people don't like TIM (I'm not one of them, I think he's a great antagonist) but you can't discount the advancements he's made for humanity. We have human biotics because of him, we beat the Collectors because of him and we have Shep because of him. Do his methods suck? Absolutely, but the results have been pretty damn good.

[Xilizhra]

Even if it was just a "test drive" (which nothing in game indicates that the Lazarus Project was anything but an attempt to bring specifically Shep back)

Obviously. The Lazarus Cell was full of idealistic dupes who'd give Cerberus a pretty face for Shepard.

but you can't discount the advancements he's made for humanity. We have human biotics because of him, we beat the Collectors because of him and we have Shep because of him. Do his methods suck? Absolutely, but the results have been pretty damn good.

I do discount the Reaper thing because Cerberus being Cerberus has nothing to do with it. TIM was simply lucky enough to have foreknowledge of the Reapers and use that to figure out the situation. He's not particularly smarter or more effective than anyone else, he just got lucky.

[Valdrane78]

laecraft wrote...

I'm going to tempt people into reading the books by going around and claiming that Retribution shows clearly that TIM's the savior of the galaxy. Which is what I truly think. Everyone should read it and see the light! :innocent:



At the very least, everyone should read Retribution, since it happens after ME2. There are sections written from TIM's POV, so you get a direct insight into his character, and the book shows very clearly that by the time after ME2 he's still not indoctrinated, and he's still working against the Reapers to the best of his abilities - and against the Alliance's and the Council's best efforts.

Oh, and if you were wondering about Anderson and whom he's attracted to...you'll find the answer in the books, as well. (HINT: everybody loves Kahlee Sanders, the second most important person in the galaxy.)

Also, I found the comics very informative. I don't usually read comics, but they show Jack Harper's past directly, and how he became TIM. He's the hero of the First Contact War. He was fighting like Shepard does, with two of his companions, but as a merchenary. He continues to fight even when the Alliance gives up. General Williams, Ashley Williams' grandfather, respects TIM greatly. And it's the only place where you can see TIM out of his office, in an informal surroundings.

Also, everybody keeps calling him a xenophobe, but after reading the comics, he didn't give me such an impression at all. He's completely neutral in his perception of other species. What he is, he's rational before emotional.

And in the comics, you get to see his act of heroism, when he pulls his friend away from the Reaper artifact (perfect mirroring of what Shepard did to Ashley with that Prothean one), and he gets hit by the indirect contact with the artifact. His friend gets turned into a husk. TIM's more lucky. He only gets some of the effects, and he seems to get over it when the artifact is destroyed. That incident is what seems to have caused those eyes of his. And you get to read his infamous manifesto, at the end.

I've bought the books, but only just started reading them, so am eager to see how the expanded universe turns out.  However I have not read the comics, but am intrigued by your statements, you may have just garnered a little bit more profits for Bioware becaus eI may have to buy some of the comic snow.  I guess I should say, mission accomplisged? lol

[Xilizhra]

Also... to be fair, I don't think TIM is actually xenophobic, he's just happy to find and use it in other people.

[alperez]

Knight

Part of my problem with your perception of horizon and with Ash's stance and something i've tried to get across to you in my post's is that imo your perception is flawed because it dismissess too many factors.

In my view you perceive Ash's stance as a betrayal because rather than add in all the other factors to you the stance she takes is the only context that matters.

The fact that its been 2 years since she last saw Shepard, that Ash has gone through life changing events that can and do change a person and that during this time while dealing with grief and feelings of loss, she's heard rumours that not only is Shepard alive and well but is working with cerberus, these things seem to be dismissed by you as unimportant factors that don't excuse or explain Ash's stance.

See its not whether or not Shepard has fundamentally changed that is the question on Horizon, we know that this isn't the case, the real question you should be asking yourself is this, Is it understandable that someone would believe Shepard has changed?

You say Ash should have known better but again this completely dismisses all the factors that explain why she does not. Instead it makes it seem as if all that's occured is that a rumour about Shepard going rogue has been spread and Ash refuses to believe Shepard's own explanation for why this isn't true.

The problem here is though again to get to that conclussion you forget about the context, you ignore Ash's own state of mind prior and during the encounter on horizon and instead portray it as a rational and un-emotional event where Ash just didn't accept Shepards version as gospel.

Like i said if you hear something is true, see what appears to be confirmation of that truth in front of your own eyes and then are told what you heard and what you see isn't exactly the truth, then what do you believe.

Again your response to this pretty much boils down to Ash knows and should trust Shepard because of all they've gone through and by not doing so it in fact is a betrayal, you also say that it would cause something earth shattering to remove the trust Ash and Shepard have.

Once again context is missing from your argument, Shepard has been presumed dead for 2 years, rumours have been spread that he's working with cerberus, he arrives and lo and behold he is alive and well and working with cerberus.

So its down to Shepard to disprove what clearly seems to be the truth in front of Ash's eyes, something he does badly. His response is akin to a lover being caught in a comprimising position and saying "Who you gonna believe me or your lying eyes".

You say she believes the rumours over the man she loves as if the context of the events she's gone through in the last 2 years, what she sees on horizon and Shepard's own reasoning aren't factors in why this is the case, to me they are key reasons why she would believe the worst rather than accept Shepard's right.

You say your an idealist and would follow your heart rather than you head and i assume your trying to say that Ash should do the same and in this i agree completely. But where i differ from your perception is this, hearts can be broken and in Ash's case this is clearly the case imo.

Her initial questions are not about the fact that Shepard seems to be working with cerberus, rather they are about the fact that Shepard was gone for 2 years. That he didn't let her know he was alive and did not seek her out, the first betrayal on Horizon comes not from Ash but from Shepard himself.

How does he respond to Ash on this subject, i was in a coma, too much time had passed, seriously that's how you respond to someone you love who's hurt and questioning how you felt about them.

You say Ash is not estatic during the reunion, again you need to rewatch the scene, her inital action is to praise Shepard and scold the mechanic, she then embraces Shepard, its only after the intial reaction that things change.

While she's not doing cartwheels, its clear she's happy and relieved that Shepard really is alive, but again we go back to context once again. While she is happy she is also concerned, upset, angry, worried and a myriad of other emotions also. Simply because the reunion itself isn't simply a presumed dead lover returning without questions.

It's the return of a presumed dead lover who's death seems to have been a hoax, who now is working with people that are terrorists, who despite being alive never bothered to find the woman he loves and instead let her believe he was dead, let her grieve for him, only for rumours to suggest that he was alive and well but working with cerberus, something his reappearance seems to confirm.

Lastly its Shepard knowing Ash is not right which ties into not assuaging her fears nicely.

Shepard can see Ash is angry, well kudos to Shepard for his one brief moment of clarity in the encounter.

So does he calm that anger, does he let Ash know that she's as important to him as she believed she was, does he let her know that despite appearances he's reluctantly working with cerberus and that he really hasn't changed, well in a short answer he does not, he in fact inflames things beyond control.

Yes its bioware who create the situation and limit the responses, but we still have to concentrate on how those responses worsen things and how the situation on horizon plays out as badly as it does.

We have in Ash someone who's lost the man she loves/respects/admires, someone who the last time she saw them alive they were basically making sure she lived. She's gone through loss, grief, survivors guilt over the last 2 years only to finally reach a place where she accepts and moves on with her life.

During this time she's heard rumours that Shepard is alive, rumours that he's working with/for cerberus, rumours that no doubt she's dismissed (perhaps while a part of her hoped the first part was true). After 2 years she's then faced with the reappearance of that presumed dead lover, who lo and behold is in fact working with/for cerberus.

So she's supposed to ignore her feelings of loss, worry and betrayal both personal and professional (personal because shepard being alive and letting her go through what she has alone and not seeking her out is a betrayal of someone you supposedly love in my book) (professional because cerberus are considered traitors by both the alliance and council).

She's supposed to ignore her feelings that Shepard may not have felt the same about her that she did him, ignore her feelings that the man she knew may not be who Shepard is now or in fact ever was and instead just accept Shepard's explanations as bad as they are.

She is not just questioning shepard as a returning lover who's been presumed dead and has just returned, she's questioning their relationship and what it meant to shepard, she's questioning her own perception of the 2 years that have passed between meetings and whether or not what she believed to be true is in fact true.

She's dealing with a unique situation, with complicated factors that influence that situation and all the heightened emotions that the situation brings up.

It's up to Shepard to explain himself and his position, both of which he does extremely badly, perhaps nothing he could have said could have made a difference, but even if this is true then Ash's stance is still justified imo.

Once again i'll go back to a woman finding out their man is a cheat, if she's heard rumours that he cheats, walks in and finds him with another woman and his response is "who do you believe me or your lying eyes" then what reaction would you expect that woman to take?

Same situation but it turns out that what the woman walked in on was entirely innocent and the rumours spread were malicious falsehoods, when faced with confirmation of this, how do you think the woman would react?

In Ash's case things are even worse, she's faced with what looks to be a Shepard who not only didn't care for her the same way she did for him, but also a Shepard who may not stand for what she believed him to stand for.

From Ash's perspective, Shepard has betrayed their relationship by not seeking her out and letting her believe he was dead, he has betrayed the alliance by working with terrorists, his responsed when called on this are idiotic, so she reacts how she does.


Context changes everything, i believe rather than accept the context, you concentrate on the outcome, to me though the context is all important.

Modifié par alperez, 22 septembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[knightnblu]

alperez-

Ok, I think that I see where you are coming from. From a contextual standpoint we have Ashley who has not seen Shepard in two years and thinks he is dead. She goes thought the grieving process and then all of a sudden, she begins to hear awkward rumors about Shepard being alive and working for Cerberus and that they are abducting human colonies. She goes to Anderson for clarification, but he is mum.

Rumors continue to circulate and then Alliance Intel picks up that Cerberus is going to hit Horizon and wipe it out. Anderson assigns Williams to investigate and the scenario is staged. How does all of that change anything? It isn't that Ashley's perspective isn't important, it's that she doesn't have any faith.

Williams is a believer in the Almighty. That alone means that she is capable of faith. She has to exercise it in order to maintain her belief in the Creator. Yet, when it comes to Shepard, she is fresh out. Love implies certain concepts.

For Ashley to have loved Shepard, she would have had to have known him as a man. She would have known his values and viewpoints. She would have some idea of his values. She would have been able to reasonably predict his actions. If this is not true, then Ashley never loved Shepard, but was only infatuated with him. But Ashley strongly asserts that she loved him. And that also implies something else, that she has faith in him.

The definition of faith is a firm belief in something or someone for which there is no proof. Your example of the wife coming home to catch the husband in bed with her best friend is a prime example of what can kill faith, but Ashley never caught Shepard red handed, she only has the evidence of coincidence. In the absence of true proof, faith dictates that one must give the benefit of the doubt. How is it that Anderson could keep faith with Shepard while Ashley, a believer in the Almighty, did not?

Shepard was not abducting colonists, he saved about half of them. Shepard even saved Ashley's skin for the third time. He fought the Collectors and he killed them. Their bodies are all over Horizon. Heck, Williams probably tripped over a couple coming to see him by the fire control station. Although that context seems to be missing in your analysis.

Did Ashley ream out Delann's butt for mouthing off about Shepard? Yes, she did. But when you consider that Delann had likely been riding her about not being able to get the guns working on Horizon, it follows that she would not miss an opportunity to rub his face in it if she ever got the chance. Delann's reaction to Williams proves that there was bad blood between them.

Further, she hesitates before embracing Shepard indicating that she is unsure of what to do, she elects to embrace. However, she cannot conceal her anger with Shepard and he picks up on this immediately. That shows that at least Shepard knows the woman he picked as an LI.

Williams then asks him why he never contacted her and Shepard tells her that it wasn't his choice, that he had been in a coma while Cerberus rebuilt him. That was when it all went to Hell in a hand basket. Ashley's mind is slammed shut. Shepard may as well have been speaking to a stone as to waste any more words on Williams. At that moment, Williams has betrayed Shepard. She confirms this by calling him a traitor to his face (at least she did that much, others would have just said it behind his back so kudos to her for having some backbone), insults his intelligence, and leaves.

Where have I missed the context? Williams broke faith with Shepard. Williams called him a traitor to the Alliance, Anderson, and her. Williams was the one who insulted Shepard's intelligence. What did I miss?

If one argues that she was so broken hearted as to be completely emotionally compromised, then she wouldn't have been able to do her job and all indications are that she completed her assignment, filed a report, and received a debrief from Anderson. Nowhere in all of that is there any indication that she was treated for being emotionally debilitated. Further, there is not a shred of evidence to show that she had some sort of emotional breakdown.

But there is someone who has completely missed the context of the events on Horizon and that is Williams herself. Not only did she not have faith in the man that she claimed to love, she completely ignored the fact that he saved half of the colony, ran off the Collectors, and saved her own hind end. Is that context not important? Does that context not matter?

In the end, all that should matter is who broke faith with whom. On that count, Ashley's skirt is not a clean as one would hope.

[alperez]

Knight

Glad to see you understand my points and you do raise some interesting ones.

You say Ash shows no faith in Shepard and as someone who loved him and believes in the almighty then she really should. That because she was in love with him she should know better than anyone else what Shepard stands for.

But here is where things begin to go off kilter, she does indeed know what Shepard stands for, the problem is that rumours, events and emotions have combined to make her not trust what deep down inside she knows.

When someone is emotionally compromised or their emotions are heightened they don't always react in the best possible way, they can and do things that later they may regret, simply because emotion clouds their judgement, something in Ash's case you refuse to accept.

You bring up Anderson accepting shepard while Ash does not as if it is entirely the same situation, when it clearly isn't. Anderson not only has the luxury of knowing more about Shepard's situation, he is not as emotionally tied to Shepard as Ash is.

He can examine events with a detached indifference, analyse them as the shrewd military man he is, Ash doesn't have this luxury, she has certain info to go on and is emotionally compromised in a way that Anderson is not.

People lose faith or lose their faith in things because of certain situations and the affect those situations have on them, yet you expect Ash to ignore everything and keep faith with Shepard regardless.

This is a point you and i really disagree on, i can understand and accept why in that particular encounter at that particular time Ash's reaction makes perfect sense and why its an understandable one, you instead want her to dismiss anything other than a faith in shepard, a faith that is based on a shepard that in Ash's mind may no longer exist or may never have existed at all.

You say i miss the context of the evidence on horizon that proves Shepard is telling the truth in my analysis. But none of what you say actually has a bearing on the exchange between Ash and Shepard.

Its not that she believes Shepard is abducting colonists for cerberus, or that she ignores he helped save her again, its the fact of the 2 years that have passed between his death and horizon and the fact of who Shepard is working with.

Ash's problems with shepard boil down to 2 key elements, what his death really meant and working with cerberus. In the first one, its unclear if he really was dead, his response just claims he was out for 2 years, he doesn't explain what happened only the fact that something did.

So what's a normal person supposed to think, that Shepard was spaced, turned into nothing, then rebuilt exactly the same with exactly the same motivations and beliefs but its taken 2 years and he's only recently been re-awakened.

Or.

Shepard for some reason faked his death, has for 2 years been off god knows where, hasn't cared enough about Ash to contact her or let her know, instead has let her go through everything she's gone through alone, only to return 2 years later as if its no big deal and whatever relationship they had was unimportant as it was a long time ago.

Once you get past that point, the second one becomes all about cerberus, Ash knows what they stand for and are capable of. Should she just accept that Shepard knows exactly what he's doing and that its for the best, would you?

Or

Would you instead worry that the person you thought you knew was in fact not the person before you, that someway, somehow they were different, that they may not even be aware of it themselves.

Amongst all the things that Ash says to Shepard one that sticks out for me is, Ash's comment on believing shepard, that she wants to but doesn't trust Cerberus and it worries her that Shepard does. To me this clearly encompasses a feeling that Shepard may not be the same person, that he has changed either willingly or because of something cerberus has done.

You bring up Ash showing initial reluctance to embrace Shepard and that even then Shepard can tell she's angry, but off course she is, what she says to Shepard following the embrace explains the reasoning behind this, yet she still embraced Shepard, where some others may not have.

After this you agree this is where things go to hell in a handbasket (something i've said from the very first argument i've made btw) and from that point on Shepard may as well be taking to a stone, its at this point you say Ash has betrayed Shepard.

To me your interpretation that Ash betrays Shepard goes completely off the rails.

If you love somebody, then let them believe your dead, let them grieve for 2 years for you, only to reappear 2 years later as if nothing has happened and explain yourself with the responses that Shepard does here, then your betraying the person you love and that person has every right to feel betrayed, which Ash clearly does.

We know events are different, we've seen what happened after the normandy destruction and we know that Shepard has only just awakened, we also know that he did attempt to find Ash (we ask tim about her only to be given no clue where she is) so our interpretation is different.

The problem to me you is this you take our known facts about the whole situation and assume that Ash is as aware of events as we are, she isn't which leads to what Ash rightly perceives to be a betrayal by shepard and is where everything else degenerates from.

Ash goes from having her understanding of the relationship and bond she shared with Shepard not only being challenged but almost destroyed in front of her eyes, to then having her understanding of who Shepard is and what he stands for also being challenged or destroyed, the faith you ask her to have is practically shattered completely on horizon, the person who should restore that faith Shepard basically in his responses tears it down brick by brick from the get go.

In terms of Ash's emotions, i don't suggest she's turned into an emotional wreck, just that both what she's gone through over the last 2 years and the encounter on horizon itself do cause her to be emotionally compromised.

She is broken hearted, her responses show this, yet she was also broken hearted when Shepard died, she still managed to do her job then, so being able to provide a report for Anderson after Horizon would be a walk in the park compared to that.

Someone can be under extreme emotional distress one moment and the next they can gather themselves and find new resolve, so Ash can be emotionally compromised talking to the man she loves who's returned from the grave and then later could pull herself together in order to complete her mission.

In short being emotionally compromised in a specific situation doesn't mean that your then emotionally compromised in every situation or once that specific situation has passed.

You say Ash misses the context of events on horizon that she loses faith in the man she loved and ignores all evidence that proves Shepard right, but i believe i've spelt out why that is the case, its later on that as i've said clearer understanding and calmer minds have prevailed and this is why we receive the e-mail.

I know you believe the e-mail is tepid and not enough, but again to me you miss the point here, the e-mail is a first step, its an olive branch, its not a complete restoration of trust or the relationship itself, so why should it be more than it is.

I do agree with you that Ash could have shown more faith, that she is in some way is at fault for horizon, the difference is i understand why that's the case and can accept it more than i think you do.

Modifié par alperez, 23 septembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[knightnblu]

alperez said "But here is where things begin to go off kilter, she does indeed know what Shepard stands for, the problem is that rumours, events and emotions have combined to make her not trust what deep down inside she knows."
 
That has been my point from the get go, deep down inside Williams should know Shepard. On Horizon, she doesn't show it. I never expected her to welcome me back with open arms, but I also never expected her to slit my throat either, figuratively speaking. But this is precisely where faith comes in. Williams has absolutely no proof in the creator, hears the criticism and ridicule of people with faith (evidenced by her conversation with Shepard aboard the SR1), and believes steadfastly in God anyway.
 
While Shepard is a mortal who is flawed from birth, Ashley still could have found a little faith in him on Horizon. After all, she loved him. In order to even have faith in the Creator in the Mass Effect universe it takes a boatload of faith, but as for faith in the man that she loves there is none. I don't buy it.
 
Had Williams merely expressed doubt and not gone off the deep end there would be no problem. But she didn't do that did she? She went all out and wrote you off before you launched your suicide mission. While I agree that Williams had no concept of why we were doing what we were doing and therefore had no comprehension of the dangers that Shep was setting himself up against (primarily because she is allergic to questions), Horizon could very well have been the last time that she ever saw Shepard. That is the trouble with snap decisions. You never know about the finality of them.
 
"People lose faith or lose their faith in things because of certain situations and the affect those situations have on them, yet you expect Ash to ignore everything and keep faith with Shepard regardless."
 
You are right, I do. I say this because had our positions been reversed, I would have remained loyal. From Ashley's perspective, there is no reason to abandon Shepard. From her perspective she was on Horizon to investigate Intel that Cerberus was abducting colonies. The implication is that Shepard was assisting in the destruction of these colonies because the rumor was that he was employee of the month with Cerberus or some such. Had I been she, I would have labeled this Intel as bull****. Why? Because I know Shepard. In fact, let's continue from Williams' point of view.
 
"My day starts off fouled up. Delann is still making noise about the colony's defenses not being up and running and my inability to get them going. I am really beginning to hate that guy. Worse, the colony comms are now out. Guess I need to have a talk with Lilith about getting everything back on track ASAP." As she and I are walking, an odd disturbance appears in the sky. "I have a bad feeling about this," I mumble under my breath.
 
"I next see an alien cruiser that I have never seen before enter Horizon's atmosphere and release thousands of...bugs, for lack of a better work. I warn the colonists to retreat and to bunker up. The next thing I know, I get stung by one of those "bugs" and I can't move. I can hear, I can see, I can think, but I cannot move."
 
"I witness terrible visages moving around me and collecting colonists for God knows what purpose and other than colonist's bodies hitting the containers, I hear nothing. No commands, no weapons fire, no anything and as a combat soldier, I realize that is a very bad thing. It means that the colony has fallen and that there is no resistance."
 
"After some time, fear begins to build within me. Sooner or later the aliens are going to come for me and I won't be able to do anything about it. That frightens me more than the prospect of an uncertain fate. As I begin to sink into despair, I hear something that makes my heart sing...weapons fire! There is resistance to these things and that means that there is still hope for Horizon!" A wild thrill shoots through Ashley as she realizes this fact and her predatory instinct kicks in.
 
"After a period of time, I hear the colony defenses come alive! I hope those bastards die a painful death. Just then, the engines fire on the Alien cruiser and I am free! Thank God! I Have to get to fire control and see what's going on." As Ashley makes her way toward fire control she sees the corpses of the attackers littering the ground. "Only wish I could have helped you to the other side buddy," she thinks as she moves past them.
 
As she rounds the corner she hears Delann's complaints, "...half the colony's in there! They got Lilith to!" Ashley grimaces, "loser" she thinks. Then she hears something that she never expected, "I did what I could, I didn't want it to end this way." "My God, that's Shepard's voice!" And Williams is hit by a flood of emotions. Circulating through her slight frame is fear, elation, anger, and amazement. But it is anger that rises to primacy.
 
"How could he have been alive all this time and he never once tried to contact me? Didn't I mean anything to him?" Her military training and culture kicks in and she walks forward to tell DeLann just who he is carping at and hiding her anger.
 
From this point forward we all know the story, but I think that it is important to try to get into Williams' mind in order to understand where she is coming from. As I see it, she may have been influenced by Alliance Intel and the rumors swirling around Shepard, but those are not the predominate thoughts as she walks up to Shepard on Horizon. They are thoughts that are primarily centered upon herself. This is why I discount the "Ashley was emotionally shattered" theory.
 
Where in that approach was her thoughts centered upon herself except at the last minute when she hears Shepard's voice? I believe that a lot of the perceptions about Ashley are transference from people who want it to be different. They wish to see an emotionally devastated and heart broken Ashley and so they make her to be so. I am a great subscriber of Occam's razor. Meaning that the most likely solution is usually the correct one.
 
Further, if anger is the prime emotion that Williams experiences then it is because of feeling slighted by Shepard and not because of any "rumors" that she knows in her heart are false. The evidence is right there before her eyes on the way to the fire control station. This isn't about Cerberus, or the Council, or the Alliance, or any other external thing. It is about she and Shepard and a woman believing that she was scorned by the man that she loved and we all know about Hell having no fury in comparison.
 
I think that is why she got her hackles up and that is why she lost it with Shepard. It is for that reason that I can no longer trust Ashley. She abandoned professionalism right along with me on Horizon. Calling me a traitor was merely adding insult to injury. Was that petty? You're damned right it was, but that is how people are. Horizon was just Williams being petty, pure and simple.
 
That's why a tepid email won't fix this and why I don't even want her on my ship in ME3. Why did BioWare create this? Because they wanted some space between the two so that Shepard would have the opportunity to "cheat" on her. Where they call it cheating, I call it moving on. But Ashley is right about one thing though, she has changed and I don't like the "new" her one bit. In ME1, Williams was a troop that I could count on and a LI. In ME2 she is psycho babe and I don't have time for that crap.
 
In ME3 God only knows who she will be because at this point, her personality is all over the map.
 
"You say Ash misses the context of events on horizon that she loses faith in the man she loved and ignores all evidence that proves Shepard right, but i believe i've spelt out why that is the case, its later on that as i've said clearer understanding and calmer minds have prevailed and this is why we receive the e-mail."
 
While I agree that with reflection came understanding, but so did the word from Anderson that Shepard was right. Now Williams has to eat crow for hefting her hind end up on her shoulders and sends off a less than honest missive.
 
Did she ignore the evidence? You betcha'. Did she ignore what her gut told her? Yup. Did she deep six Shepard and make it personal because she was hurt? She did indeed. Williams is no saint in this. She acts like a petulant child.
 
While I most certainly agree that Shepard's dialog options blew like the North wind, I also cannot imagine what he could have said that would have mollified her in the slightest. She was going to get her pound of flesh come Hell or high water. That is the way that I see it.
 
I still have an open mind regarding her and that is why I want an explanation for her malfunction on Horizon. Barring that, I want the choice to boot her ass off of my ship and make her somebody else's problem. I don't have the time to babysit Ashley and do my job as well. I really don't think that is too much to ask for. I never asked BioWare to foul up my LI, but that is where we are at. I just want an option that fixes it or allows me to jettison it.

[Pockles]

Yes. The Shepard I made that romanced her is as patient as a man can be, so he may be in the minority. I'm not angry at her personally either, since I don't do self-insertion.

I think Ashley deserves a second chance. She's a fun character.

Modifié par Pockles, 24 septembre 2011 - 02:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Shepard might be prepared to condemnations from the rest of the galaxy, because he's working with Cerberus, who seems to be designated Undesirable Number One of the galaxy, thanks to the Council propaganda.

There's also the fact that most of the nastier criminal organizations and suchlike generally stick to the Terminus Systems, where they don't have to worry about as much law enforcement. I feel it's safe to say that Cerberus is the most sinister organization whose primary sphere of operations is Citadel space.

[Iakus]

laecraft wrote...

You know what they say, the first duty of love is to listen. What good is love if it doesn't listen? What good is loyalty if it crumbles under the slightest weight of suspicion? What good is faith if it doesn't offer the benefit of the doubt? What good is friendship if it doesn't offer support? What good are all those good things, if they don't hold under pressure and break in your darkest hour, when you need them most?

Friendship that swears to be steadfast, then betrays you, is much worse than honest animosity, because you come to rely upon it, and it leaves you without support when you're least expecting it. Love that swears to be eternal, then betrays you, is much worse than the enemy's hatred, because you don't let the enemy close. And the one you call your beloved can get close enough to stab you in the back when you're most vulnerable. Like it happened on Horizon.

As the saying I prefer goes:

“To love means loving the unlovable.
To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.
Faith means believing the unbelievable.
Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.”

So yes, I'll believe in Ash.  She's not a rope.  She's a human being, like Shepard (well, Shep's mostly human still...I think...) I don't think she'll fail a second time.  Provided she keeps her hair out of her eyes.