1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Pockles]

Where's your other three ropes?

[Made Nightwing]

laecraft wrote...

^ A common mistake of comparing an entire organization to a mere subordinate.

Ashley does not represent the Alliance. She does not rule the Council. She has no political power to speak of. She's a mere grunt. Easily replaceable. How hard is it to replace the Alliance? How hard is it to replace a soldier?

She's completely insignificant. The only irreplaceable thing she could've offered was her personal moral support. Her faith in Shepard. Her loyalty to him. Maybe even comfort. But now that she doesn't offer even that - worse, she offers accusations and only negative feelings, she's completely useless. Worse - dangerous.

It would be so much easier to work with someone who's never called you a traitor. My Shepard doesn't even need VS' presence. He doesn't need old wounds reopened. He doesn't need all that negative feelings again. He doesn't need to be endangered.

For the love of everything holy,



What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

[Valdrane78]

Made Nightwing wrote...

laecraft wrote...

^ A common mistake of comparing an entire organization to a mere subordinate.

Ashley does not represent the Alliance. She does not rule the Council. She has no political power to speak of. She's a mere grunt. Easily replaceable. How hard is it to replace the Alliance? How hard is it to replace a soldier?

She's completely insignificant. The only irreplaceable thing she could've offered was her personal moral support. Her faith in Shepard. Her loyalty to him. Maybe even comfort. But now that she doesn't offer even that - worse, she offers accusations and only negative feelings, she's completely useless. Worse - dangerous.

It would be so much easier to work with someone who's never called you a traitor. My Shepard doesn't even need VS' presence. He doesn't need old wounds reopened. He doesn't need all that negative feelings again. He doesn't need to be endangered.

For the love of everything holy,



What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

If you felt abandoned and betrayed by your loved one, woudl you just deal with it and on?  I doubt most people would, it would always be in the back of you rmind.  Better to deal with it and get it out of the way so you can move on.

[diamondedge]

She's completely insignificant. The only irreplaceable thing she could've offered was her personal moral support. Her faith in Shepard. Her loyalty to him. Maybe even comfort. But now that she doesn't offer even that - worse, she offers accusations and only negative feelings, she's completely useless. Worse - dangerous.

For the love of everything holy,

What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

He is right actually. What does age have anything to do with it? Shepard is human. You may think that your renegade way is the badass way to go but the fact remains that Ashley has shown to be supportive and understanding when Shepard needed her, but now she accuses him of betrayal of everything he fought and was willing to die for. Do you think we should look for loophole because this is really only just a game and Shepard isn't really a living, breathing person?

Things like that hurt people. Out of all people - she should have been the one to understand but instead it was her who acted on instinct and her own selfish beliefs instead of trying to look at the other side of the coin.

If it wasn't obvious  - she isn't my girl anymore.

Modifié par diamondedge, 24 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[diamondedge]

Oh, and from your outrageous reaction, I'm guessing you told all your teammates to suck it up and get back into fight when they asked you to do their loyalty missions?

Bet your ship was pretty empty afterwards.

Hahaha. This.

[Xilizhra]

However, it would be much, much easier to him to focus if the person who betrayed him and called him a traitor is not constantly present on his ship.

Your standards for "betrayal" are remarkably low...

I'm not certain this is of loyalty mission caliber, really. The only one that I think would be comparable is Jacob's, and that's mostly because of his huge emotional resilience. Of course, everyone reacts to these things differently, and your Shepard is nucking futs, so... maybe.

[J. Finley]

After Horizon, my Shep pretty much did this.

[YouthCultureForever]

It's still my assertion that Ashley never questioned Shepard's integrity.

Alliance Intel said Cerberus could peripherally involved in the colony abductions.
There was one rumor about Shepard: He's alive and working with Cerberus.

Ash presumably asks Anderson about the intel and the rumors when she talks to him. He confirms the Cerberus intel and launches the investigation that she leads on Horizon. But when it comes to Shepard he probably gave her the biggest non-answer in the history of non-answers or he just simply told he didn't know anything.

Now, I don't think Ashley would believe Shepard, the most upstanding guy in the galaxy, would spearhead a colonly abduction scheme for shady human supremisict group he'd tried his damndest to shut down 2 year ago. And that's if he's even alive. She dismissed that rumor as garbage right away. Absolute trash. Not gonna happen in this lifetime. Worst joke she'd heard. She didn't jump on the Shepard crucifixion bandwagon after hearing one rumor that has the slimist of slim chances of being true. Logically, it wouldn't make any sense and Bioware wouldn't trash any character that way. 

So when Ashley meets Shepard on Horizon she is excited to see him. He really is alive. The other half of the rumor doesn't even register at this point. It's just reuion time. Ash isn't stiff backed and eagle eyed. She isn't scowling (Bioware can do scowling). She looks like, I can't believe you're alive. Is this even real? Are my eyes deceiving me? If she believed the rumor she wouldn't be surprised he's there. She wouldn't hug him either. Why would she hug a man she views as a Cerberus lackey? The enemy? Ash isn't known for politeness or formality. It's just not her personality. She is going to be frank with a take no prisonors, frontal assualt type action attitude if he she really believes he's a traitor. She isn't going to hug him just because they were friends and then ream him for working with the Cerberus. That borders on crazy. Split personality insane. Again, Bioware wouldn't do that.

When Shepard asks, "Is something bothering you Ash?" she doesn't respond with, "Yeah Cerberus jackal, you're what's bothering me!" . This anger has nothing to do with Cerberus. And honestly, Shepard couldn't figure this out? It's obvious.

 "Is something bothering me? Yeah you could say that. I saw you get spaced 2 years ago. I loved you. Believing you were dead, that just about killed me. So why haven't you called?! It would have been the considerate thing to do."  

;)"Oh Ash, you know I would've but Cerberus had me on lockdown with the whole ressurrection thing so...yeah."

That's all her inital anger is about. It's got nothing to do with Cerberus. The conversation becomes about Cerberus after Shepard confirms he is with them. That once incredible rumor has credence. It's fact. Ashley says, "I can't believe the reports were right." She just didn't think it was possible. She could have jumped on him right then with, "What the hell Shepard! Why are you kidnapping colonies?!"  That would constitute emotioal betrayal. That's questionig his integrity. Throwing it out the window actually. She doesn't do that. Even then she doesn't attack Shepard. She doesn't question his motives. She question's Cerberus's. 

The rest of the conversation goes like this:

 "Cerberus and I want the same things. To save our colonies. That doesn't mean I answer to them."

"Do you really believe that? Or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think? How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."  

Alternatively, "Cerberus has got to be manipulating you. You just wouldn't work for them. You just wouldn't. I just can't see why else you'd turn your back on everything we stood for." 

 "This isn't about me working for Cerberus, Ash. Something far more important is at stake. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targeting human colonies. And they're working with the Reapers!"

"I'd like to believe you Shepard. But I don't trust Cerberus. And it worries me that you do. What did they do to you? What if they're behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?"

Alternatively, "Yeah, I get it. You want to save the colonies. That's what you think you're doing, but what if they aren't? OMG! What if it's all part of some insane masterplan?! We can't trust Cerberus and their motives."

"You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of facts."

"Or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you. Maybe it's you. Doesn't matter...I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance soldier. It's in my blood. I'm reporting back to the Citadel. I'll let them decide if they believe your story."

Alternatively, "What did they hang over your head? Do you feel like you owe them for saving you? Is that it? Let it go Shepard. They were good to their new puppet, so what. Forget about their hospitality. You're Alliance, you should have ditched them first chance you got. I know I would've. *sighs* I'm leaving. I'll tell Anderson and the Council, see if they believe this "Cerberus is saving the colonies," crap."

"I could use someone like you in my crew, Ash. It''ll be just like old times."

"No it won't. I'm no fan of aliens, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist. I'll work for a group like that. Goodbye Shepard. Just...try to be careful"

Alternatively, "No, it won't. I joined the Alliance to defend humanity from aliens. Just like you did. No, we're not perfect, but we're not a bunch of nutters. I'll never work for those jerks. Just watch out for yourself Shepard."

Ashley does not betray Shepard.  

*I know plenty of people will argue this down. But please think about what I said first.
**Alternatively is basically code for, My Interpretation.

EDIT: Deleted the last paragraph. Didn't properly convey my opinion. Will elaborate later.
 

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 24 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Alas, Shepard's talk-jitsu completely inverts in that scene to become an awful example of verbal idiocy. I can think of several responses that'd handle this situation better.

I think my opinion is that Ashley isn't right to believe Shepard's gone that bad, but Shepard is such a colossal dunce in that scene that I can't really blame her for it.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

Alas, Shepard's talk-jitsu completely inverts in that scene to become an awful example of verbal idiocy. I can think of several responses that'd handle this situation better.

I think my opinion is that Ashley isn't right to believe Shepard's gone that bad, but Shepard is such a colossal dunce in that scene that I can't really blame her for it.

The such can happen during with a long term reunion-you've been expecting X for such a long time, and when X doesn't happen, "OMG U BETRAYED ME YOU A BETRAYING IDIOT WHO ARE U WAAAA!" ensues.

[Made Nightwing]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

laecraft wrote...

^ A common mistake of comparing an entire organization to a mere subordinate.

Ashley does not represent the Alliance. She does not rule the Council. She has no political power to speak of. She's a mere grunt. Easily replaceable. How hard is it to replace the Alliance? How hard is it to replace a soldier?

She's completely insignificant. The only irreplaceable thing she could've offered was her personal moral support. Her faith in Shepard. Her loyalty to him. Maybe even comfort. But now that she doesn't offer even that - worse, she offers accusations and only negative feelings, she's completely useless. Worse - dangerous.

It would be so much easier to work with someone who's never called you a traitor. My Shepard doesn't even need VS' presence. He doesn't need old wounds reopened. He doesn't need all that negative feelings again. He doesn't need to be endangered.

For the love of everything holy,

*snip*

What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

If you felt abandoned and betrayed by your loved one, woudl you just deal with it and on?  I doubt most people would, it would always be in the back of you rmind.  Better to deal with it and get it out of the way so you can move on.

You...just said exactly what I would do. Deal with it and move on. In a way laecraft is right, any bad blood needs to be gotten out of the way immediately, and after that it doesn't need to be mentioned again. I've worked with jackasses that I don't like, and whom I have no respect for. Guess what? Real life doesn't allow you the time or energy to sort out all the issues. So you just suck it up and get back to work.

[Made Nightwing]

laecraft wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

Not only he's going to get back into the fight. He already did. The moment Ashley turned around and walked away, he pulled himself together and got back to fighting. It's Ashley's choice to step away from heat of the battle. It's Shepard's choice to be fighting on the frontlines. They parted their ways on Horizon forever.

She allowed her emotions get in the way of her judgement. She can do that - the galaxy does not depend on her.

Shepard, however, cannot afford his emotions get in the way. He got right back and focused on the mission.

However, it would be much, much easier to him to focus if the person who betrayed him and called him a traitor is not constantly present on his ship.

I'm saying that because I saw his face after she left, when he was speaking to Kelly and Joker. I could do absolutely nothing to help my avatar. He was moping. I had no control over it. It might happen again, and I wouldn't be able to help him. I need to get rid of Ashley, fast.

Oh, and from your outrageous reaction, I'm guessing you told all your teammates to suck it up and get back into fight when they asked you to do their loyalty missions?

Bet your ship was pretty empty afterwards.

So if someone doubts your integrity because you show up working for extremists, then decides to back off for a while because they don't know whether they can trust you anymore...that's a betrayal? You're talking as if Ash had malicious intent when she said those words. She didn't. She was standing up for herself and the Alliance, both of which she feels Shepard has betrayed. Remarkable bit of backbone considering how much she was devoted to Shep in ME1. She has principles that she can't and won't betray, no matter the person. Frankly, she's probably going to be the most reliable person in ME3, someone who can ignore personal attachments and get the job done.

Shepard's not a wilting flower, he's a soldier who can take a hit, and a leader who knows just how badly he needs every willing hand he can get. If his attitude is that of a whining schoolgirl who got dumped the night before prom, then the rest of the galaxy is screwed.

I did my crewmate's loyalty missions precisely because most of them weren't soldiers, and nearly all of them lacked the self-discipline to put their issues behind them. Rather than compromise the mission, it was better to deal with those issues and then get back to work.

[Xilizhra]

If Shepard could explain herself better, what words do you feel would be sufficient to sate Ashley in this situation.

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard could explain herself better, what words do you feel would be sufficient to sate Ashley in this situation.

"Ashley, I have a mission to do. When I get back, perhaps we can work out some sort of bang-buddy arrangement-"
*SMACK*

I really would like to see Ash slap Shep senseless. Just once.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 24 septembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Made Nightwing]

diamondedge wrote...

She's completely insignificant. The only irreplaceable thing she could've offered was her personal moral support. Her faith in Shepard. Her loyalty to him. Maybe even comfort. But now that she doesn't offer even that - worse, she offers accusations and only negative feelings, she's completely useless. Worse - dangerous.

For the love of everything holy,

What is your Shepard? Three years old? IT'S A FREAKING GALACTIC WAR! Are you going to stay hung up on some harsh words said in anger? Or is your Shepard gonna suck it up and get back into the fight?

He is right actually. What does age have anything to do with it? Shepard is human. You may think that your renegade way is the badass way to go but the fact remains that Ashley has shown to be supportive and understanding when Shepard needed her, but now she accuses him of betrayal of everything he fought and was willing to die for. Do you think we should look for loophole because this is really only just a game and Shepard isn't really a living, breathing person?

Things like that hurt people. Out of all people - she should have been the one to understand but instead it was her who acted on instinct and her own selfish beliefs instead of trying to look at the other side of the coin.

If it wasn't obvious  - she isn't my girl anymore.

Perhaps I should rephrase that? Is Shepard an experienced and hardened combat leader, or a wannabe emo hanging out at the mall? Good Lord, if I had refused to have a cadet in my section back when I was a Cadet Corporal, just because he said mean things to me, or in some way betrayed my trust, then my Warrant Officer would have slapped me silly, taken away my stripes and given them to someone else who could do the damn job without their feelings getting in the way. It's not the renegade, badass way. Sucking it up, moving on and starting fresh is the only realistic way to handle a situation like that.

She wasn't selfish. She wanted to believe that he was back, that he was real and that he was still the same person. But she can't just bury her duty and her integrity. Shepard is working with an organisation that kills Alliance Marines on a semi-frequent basis. Ash can't just think about herself, she needs to think about all of her brothers in arms that Cerberus has murdered.

[YouthCultureForever]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard could explain herself better, what words do you feel would be sufficient to sate Ashley in this situation.

He should have acknowledged her concerns, not kept at it with the, "I'm saving the colonies and that's all there is to it." attitude.

[alperez]

YouthCultureForever

Points out in his post above a lot of the same things i've said myself, its Shepard's responses that create the intial rift and its those response that turn an emotional reunion between friends/lovers into an accusation filled snafu.

What Knight and Laecraft fail to recognise is 2 simple facts, shepard's response's inflame the situation into what it becomes and the amount of time that's passed between Ash and Shepard's last meeting. There is also imo a refusal to accept that emotion plays a large part on horizon and why its understandble that from Ash's perspective things play out how they do.

Instead they go on and say things like Ash should have faith in Shepard and if she loves him then she should really just have accepted the situation and the explanations offered, that by not doing so she betrays Shepard when in the situation from Ash's perspective its clearly the other way round.

This isn't a case of a lover returning from the dead with no questions about why that is, its not a case of someone being missing for a short span of time and then returning to the open arms of the woman that loves him unquestionably.

Its someone who's been presumed dead for 2 years, someone rumours have been spread about which suggest they may have in fact faked their death (simply because who the hell knows anything about the lazurus project), its also someone who upon their return seems to not only be working with/for terrorist but perhaps someone who's been working with/for those terrorist's for the past 2 years.

Ash doesn't know anything about the facts behind shepard's ressurrection, so does she believe shepard was in fact ressurrected or does she believe he faked his death, which of these 2 would you believe if you were in her position?

She also perhaps has dismissed the rumours spread about shepard working with cerberus as YOUTH suggest, but when she sees it practically confirmed in front of her eyes, again what is she supposed to believe?

She ask's the question that in reality any of us would ask, what happened, why did you let me believe you were dead, why didn't you try to find me and how does Shepard respond, does he calm her, does he explain things or does he practically flippantly dismiss her concerns and their relationship as if it was insignificant?

Once that tone is set, from there things go completely off kilter, its Shepards response to Ash regarding where he's been, what he's doing and why he didn't try to contact her that sets this up.

If you saw the person you loved die before your eyes, spent 2 years grieving and trying to come to terms with this, heard rumours during those 2 years suggesting they were alive and working with people you considered terrorist's, but dismissed those rumours.

Then suddenly you were face to face with not just the lover you lost but what appears to be confirmation of those very rumours and when you asked what the hell was going on, you then got the response's that shepard gave,would you just go on faith?

Would you not in fact question whether the relationship you had with this person was as important to them as it was to you, would you not question whether this person actually stood for what you believed them to stand for.

Of course you would, simply put shepard dismisses their relationship as insignificant with the very first answers he gives, after that every response he gives can't be taken with an this is the man i loved, this is the man i believed in so i should trust him implicitly attitude, for the simple reason that Shepard's intial responses cause everything to change.

Shepard we know is doing what he's doing for the right reason, we know the reason why he didn't try and contact Ash, she does not and when pressed on these things Shepard answers not in a clear concise way that eliminates all doubt.

Instead he destroys the image of himself that up to that point Ash has believed in completely.

Does he show he cares for Ash as much as she did for him, no he does not in fact his response's paint things completely differently, once this has been set in motion everything else is up in the air.

Shepard doesn't cover himself in glory on horizon, neither does Ash, however at least in Ash's case her reasoning is sound, shepard doesn't have the same excuse, his is retarded.

[YouthCultureForever]

alperez wrote...

YouthCultureForever

Points out in his post above a lot of the same things i've said myself, its Shepard's responses that create the intial rift and its those response that turn an emotional reunion between friends/lovers into an accusation filled snafu.

What Knight and Laecraft fail to recognise is 2 simple facts, shepard's response's inflame the situation into what it becomes and the amount of time that's passed between Ash and Shepard's last meeting. There is also imo a refusal to accept that emotion plays a large part on horizon and why its understandble that from Ash's perspective things play out how they do.

Instead they go on and say things like Ash should have faith in Shepard and if she loves him then she should really just have accepted the situation and the explanations offered, that by not doing so she betrays Shepard when in the situation from Ash's perspective its clearly the other way round.

Thats my problem with their posts as well. You just can't place the blame on Ashley.

[Ryzaki]

I don't mind her being back on the ship.

But the game better not act like she and my Shepard are BFFs. Like they did with every one else from ME1. It was annoying the first time.

My Shep was never friendly to Ash. And that better not change so they can have some BS heart to heart about Horizon. As long as my Shep can go "don't care. Do your job. Don't talk to me unless it involves the mission or you're bleeding out." I'm happy.

[naledgeborn]

Yes Shepard would deal with it. He's a person of action with a lot of responsibility and a lot hangs on his/her decisions. Saying s/he's just a normal human is inaccurate when you look at the bigger picture and see the scale of his/her influence. If s/he's walking around mopey or depressed people will die.The same could be said about all 'Shepards'; it's not that they won't deal but how. Letting personal feelings cloud the mind when people are fighting for survival is bad leadership at best.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard could explain herself better, what words do you feel would be sufficient to sate Ashley in this situation.

"Believe me Ash, I remember all those sick experiments we found.  I haven't forgotten about Admiral Kahoku or Corporal Tooms either.  But neither the Council nor the Alliance seemed willing to interfere in Terminus colonies.  My truce with Cerberus only extends towards dealing with the colonies.  Nothing more.  Joker and Doctor Chakwas  are on the Normandy too.  If you like you can speak with them too.  We haven't betrayed the Alliance.  Quite the opposite, we're trying to save it.  And the CItadel and every other race out there from the Reapers.  Afte that, Cerberus stops being the lesser evil

"Here's some data the Alliance might find useful.  One of my crew is a former STG named Mordin Solus.  He came up with a countermeasure for those Seekers.  Get some of those our colonies and the oOllectors will have a much harder time grabbing them.  

[YouthCultureForever]

jreezy wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

It's still my assertion that Ashley never questioned Shepard's integrity.
*snip*

You can't be serious. With all the dialougue you felt the need to write in your post you can't see that she did exactly that?

She didn't. She believes he wants to save the colonies. She doesn't believe that's what Cerberus is doing.