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[Iakus]

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

"Do you really believe that? Or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think? How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."

Alternatively, "Cerberus has got to be manipulating you. You just wouldn't work for them. You just wouldn't. I just can't see why else you'd turn your back on everything we stood for."

[knightnblu]

You know alperez, I am going to try this for the last time. It would appear that you have a selective memory. Let's set the record straight once and for all shall we? Here is the conversation between Williams and Shepard on Horizon verbatim:
 
Ashley: "I thought you were dead, Shepard. We all did."
 
Ashley embraces Shepard
 
Shepard: "You don't sound too happy to see me. Something bothering you, Ash?"
 
Ashley: "Yeah, something's bothering me. I spent the last two years believing you were dead! We had something Shepard. Something real. I...loved you. I almost... How could you put me through that? Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"
 
Shepard: "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
 
Ashley, backing away from Shepard: "You're with Cerberus now? Garrus too? I can't believe the reports were right."
 
Garrus: "Reports? You mean you already knew?"
 
Ashley: Alliance Intel said Cerberus could be behind our missing colonies. We got a tip that this one could be the next to get hit. I went to Anderson, but he wouldn't talk. But there were rumors that you weren't dead. Worse, that you were working for the enemy."
 
Shepard: "Cerberus and I want the same thing -- that doesn't mean I answer to them."
 
Ashley: "Do you really believe that? Or is that what Cerberus wants you to think? I wanted to believe that you were alive... I just never expected anything like this. How could you turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me (with venom)."
 
Shepard: "This isn't about me working for Cerberus, Ash. Something far more important is at stake. You saw it yourself. The Collectors are targeting Human Colonies. And they're working with the Reapers."
 
Ashley: "I'd like to believe you, Shepard. But I don't trust Cerberus. And it worries me that you do. What did they do to you? What if they're behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?"
 
Garrus: "Damn it, Williams. You're so focused on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!"
 
Shepard: "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of the facts."
Ashley: "Or maybe you feel like you owe Cerberus because they saved you. Maybe it's you. Doesn't matter. I still know where my loyalties lie. I'm an Alliance Soldier. It's in my blood. I'm reporting back to the Citadel. I'll let them decide if they believe your story."
 
Where was the incendiary language that provoked Williams to call Shepard a traitor? According to you, Shepard provoked Williams melt down. So where in the above dialog does Shepard do that? In my estimation, he doesn't. Unless of course, you call directing someone's attention to the facts inflammatory?
 
If the above dialog shows anything, it is Williams hostility towards Shepard. Not once does she ask Shepard why he is on Horizon. She never asks him about his mission. She doesn't investigate the injuries that put Shepard in a two year coma. She never asks how Shepard was able to keep from being frozen by the attacker. She does accuse him of treason to the Alliance and of betrayal to her personally and she blows all military courtesy and treats him like a child, calling his personal integrity into question. For Williams, it is completely personal. Further, I have no idea what she wrote about Shepard in her report to the Citadel, but she certainly didn't pay Shepard's details much heed.
 
I respect that you have a different opinion. I do not agree with it, but I respect it. Further, I believe that the factual evidence is on my side.
 
 
YouthCultureForever said "Thats my problem with their posts as well. You just can't place the blame on Ashley."
 
 
Are you serious?

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

"Do you really believe that? Or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think? How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."

Alternatively, "Cerberus has got to be manipulating you. You just wouldn't work for them. You just wouldn't. I just can't see why else you'd turn your back on everything we stood for."

Just because she thinks Cerberus has somehow duped Shepard does not mean that she doesn't think Shepard betrayed the Alliance.  She could think Shepard is betraying them "for the greater good"  That maybe he's willing to sacrifice a few human colonies for a way to stop the Reapers later.

Edit: yes I think it's ridiculous believe  for all but the most  Renegade Shepards to.  But that's certainly how Ash sounded to me.  I'll be very curious to see what the frak's going on in ME3.  These rumors of Shep must be juicy indeed.

Modifié par iakus, 25 septembre 2011 - 05:48 .

[SandTrout]

The relationship we had in ME1 is over, and I wouldn't hold it against her if she did move on.

I do hope that my Shep gets a chance to start again.

[diamondedge]

Perhaps I should rephrase that? Is Shepard an experienced and hardened combat leader, or a wannabe emo hanging out at the mall? Good Lord, if I had refused to have a cadet in my section back when I was a Cadet Corporal, just because he said mean things to me, or in some way betrayed my trust, then my Warrant Officer would have slapped me silly, taken away my stripes and given them to someone else who could do the damn job without their feelings getting in the way. It's not the renegade, badass way. Sucking it up, moving on and starting fresh is the only realistic way to handle a situation like that.

You can't possibly equal those two things. Was your situation strictly professional? Or were you lovers? The conflict goes far beyond a soldier who can't seem to suck it up.

The base of the whole conflict is emotional involvment. Shepard was Ashley's superior and she has been with him long enough to know the decisions he had to make and why he made them. She didn't question him about it - she accused him with worst case scenario.

She wasn't selfish. She wanted to believe that he was back, that he was real and that he was still the same person. But she can't just bury her duty and her integrity. Shepard is working with an organisation that kills Alliance Marines on a semi-frequent basis. Ash can't just think about herself, she needs to think about all of her brothers in arms that Cerberus has murdered.

If that's how you seem to think, I can't stop you. I however find her reaction unforgivable.

[SandTrout]

I find her reaction poorly played, on the part of the writers. IMO, we should have met her on-board the Collector Vessel, so that the audience would be given more reason to empathize with the trauma that she was probably experiencing when we meet her.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

iakus wrote...

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

"Do you really believe that? Or is that just what Cerberus wants you to think? How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."

Alternatively, "Cerberus has got to be manipulating you. You just wouldn't work for them. You just wouldn't. I just can't see why else you'd turn your back on everything we stood for."

Just because she thinks Cerberus has somehow duped Shepard does not mean that she doesn't think Shepard betrayed the Alliance.  She could think Shepard is betraying them "for the greater good"  That maybe he's willing to sacrifice a few human colonies for a way to stop the Reapers later.

Edit: yes I think it's ridiculous believe  for all but the most  Renegade Shepards to.  But that's certainly how Ash sounded to me.  I'll be very curious to see what the frak's going on in ME3.  These rumors of Shep must be juicy indeed.

You guys think she means literal betrayal. I don't and I've supported why. She doesn't mean it as a literal betrayal of the Alliance. She knows he didn't jump ship first chance he got. It's the betrayal of everything he and Ashley stood for. It's the betrayal of what they believed in and the way they used to do things. The neglect of the past. It's a betrayal of who she is and what you are.

It sounds like the Shepard rumor was out for while. It might have been no time to Shepard, but Ashley probably heard it and dismissed it a while ago. So when Shepard shows up on Horizon and tells her he is working with Cerberus it blows her mind.

She gets angry because she believed in him and believed he'd never do something like that. Shepard makes her faith in him look foolish. It's a "How could you?!" moment.

We know Shepard doesn't question anything TIM tells him. He doesn't try to go back o the Alliance, he doesn't trust they're doing everything within reason to stop the abductions.

She knows Shepard is doing this for the greater good. But there is no indication he's willing to sacrifice any their colonies in his responses to her. She can't make that conclusion. He stakes his life on saving them. (They brought me to save the colonies attitude). She doesn't ream Shepard as soon as she sees him and she's surprised he's even there. If neither one of those facts were true, I'd say she believes he's capable of anything.

As for these "other rumors", I doubt there are any. There is no evidence. No one in the game comments casually, comically,  or seriously about anything other than the Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus rumor. 

*Her tone in the orignal dialogue is very angry. I toned her down so we can get past that and get at the actual meaning of what she says. I didn't retcon the scene.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[YouthCultureForever]

jreezy wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
YouthCultureForever said "Thats my problem with their posts as well. You just can't place the blame on Ashley."
 
 
Are you serious?

You know he/she is! It's obvious that Ashley isn't to blame at all for Horizon.

Your piggyback burns don't impress me. Back on topic.

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

You know alperez, I am going to try this for the last time. It would appear that you have a selective memory. Let's set the record straight once and for all shall we? Here is the conversation between Williams and Shepard on Horizon verbatim:
  
Where was the incendiary language that provoked Williams to call Shepard a traitor? According to you, Shepard provoked Williams melt down. So where in the above dialog does Shepard do that? In my estimation, he doesn't. Unless of course, you call directing someone's attention to the facts inflammatory?
 
If the above dialog shows anything, it is Williams hostility towards Shepard. Not once does she ask Shepard why he is on Horizon. She never asks him about his mission. She doesn't investigate the injuries that put Shepard in a two year coma. She never asks how Shepard was able to keep from being frozen by the attacker. She does accuse him of treason to the Alliance and of betrayal to her personally and she blows all military courtesy and treats him like a child, calling his personal integrity into question. For Williams, it is completely personal. Further, I have no idea what she wrote about Shepard in her report to the Citadel, but she certainly didn't pay Shepard's details much heed.
 
I respect that you have a different opinion. I do not agree with it, but I respect it. Further, I believe that the factual evidence is on my side. 
 

Shepard sounds like a dunce in this scene. All he does is repeat, "I'm saving the colonies."  He doesn't address her concerns even though they're legitimate.

Shepard tells Ashley what his mission is (or what he thinks it is), he's saving the colonies. He's going to be equiped to complete his mision (regardless of what he's actually doing). The injuries that put Shepard in a two year coma? Death. She knows he died.

Again, you guys are working from the premise that she means a literal betrayal. I'm not. It's a betrayal of who she is and what you are. "You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me!" Everything that comes before the me is what she represents and trusts. That's why it comes last, not first. It defines who she is and what she believes. If you don't believe that's true, how do you define her? 

Shepard dismisses who she is and the understanding of why she can't agree with him working for Cerberus.  He doesn't see the problem because he ignores that's who she is and it' what he is. He doesn't understand it at all and that's what's wrong with Shepard in this scene.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

Yup, this is one point you and I can agree on.

I chalk the whole scene up to poor writing. 

Then again, I have seen, in real life, people act this way. 

In real life, if you have a relationship you have to decide if you're going to be patient and work through the moment of irrationality or not.  My first reaction was "not"... but given time to cool off I'm open to giving her character a "second shot". 

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

She wasn't selfish. She wanted to believe that he was back, that he was real and that he was still the same person. But she can't just bury her duty and her integrity. Shepard is working with an organisation that kills Alliance Marines on a semi-frequent basis. Ash can't just think about herself, she needs to think about all of her brothers in arms that Cerberus has murdered.

There's a world of difference between "working with" and organisation and "using" said organisation.
Besides at that times on Horizon, I've already send Cerberus Data to the Alliance for it being used against Cerberus...

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever  said - "She doesn't mean it as a literal betrayal of the Alliance. She knows he didn't jump ship first chance he got. It's the betrayal of everything he and Ashley stood for. It's the betrayal of what they believed in and the way they used to do things. It's a betrayal of who she is and what you are."
 
I really think that you are reading a lot into this that isn't there. Williams is an NCO and comes 3rd generation from a military family. She knows what it means to accuse someone of treason. When she says that Shepard is a traitor to the Alliance, she means it.
 
Further, Ashley mentions treason to the Alliance first. Why did she do that? Because in her mind, that's what hit first. It is not unreasonable for Williams to think of the Alliance first nor is it unusual for her to accuse Shepard of being a traitor to them being as he is in the employ (so she thinks) of the enemy (her word, not mine). If a man said that his house had collapsed but that his dog, his TV and his wife made it out in one piece, who do you believe that he values most? In what order did he think of the relationships?
 
What do you call somebody from your side who left in order to work for your enemy? A traitor. I think that you are meta-gaming to a certain extent here. If Williams truly believed that Shepard was no traitor, then her offense is even greater because not only did she select the knife with which she was going to wound Shepard, she twisted the blade for effect. That's sick when you do that to somebody you claim to have loved and it smacks of a cruelty on a level that we have only seen in ME villains thus far.
 
 
"She knows Shepard is doing this for the greater good. But there is no indication he's willing to sacrifice any their colonies in his responses to her. She can't make that conclusion. He stakes his life on saving them. (They brought me to save the colonies attitude)"
 
How about she served with him, or that she knows his character, or how about she has actually witnessed him making decisions precisely because he was unwilling to sacrifice a few in order to save the many (at least until Bahak). My Shepard is a paragon. What did she witness that would lead her to believe that? My Shepard even tells TIM that sacrificing innocents is wrong, there is always a better way. He tells this to Zaeed on his loyalty mission and saves the miners.
 
Of course, Williams is unaware of what transpires in ME2, but she is certainly aware of what happened in ME1. But maybe she forgot. Or in the intervening years perhaps she had a stroke that took out some of her memory. Or maybe she took a bullet to the head like Zaeed. Or perhaps she was so depressed she underwent shock therapy. We may never know. I don't think any of that is likely though, given the fact that she admits to having once loved him, so it would appear that at least some of her recollections are there.
 
But she just cannot seem to muster even a smidgeon of faith in the man that she said made her feel like she was good enough for what she was fighting for. Go figure.
 
"Shepard sounds like a dunce in this scene. All he does is repeat, "I'm saving the colonies." He doesn't address her concerns even though they're legitimate."
 
Really? So when Ashley asks "How could you put me through that? Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"and Shepard replies "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me." What he is really saying is "I'm saving the colonies." Where do you get that? How does "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me" = "I'm saving the colonies" ?
 
Let's look at another.
 
How does Ashley asking ""I'd like to believe you, Shepard. But I don't trust Cerberus. And it worries me that you do. What did they do to you? What if they're behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?" and Shepard's response of "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of the facts" equate to "I'm saving the colonies?"
 
You must be using some new form of semantics. To equate "Not my choice," "I spent the last two years in a coma while Cerberus rebuilt me," and "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of the facts" all equal "I'm saving the colonies."
 
Looking at this from a logical perspective, you assert that A, B, and C = X where A, B, and C all have differing values. That is illogical, unless the values of A, B, C, and X are equivalent. They are not. Yet according to you, Shepard is a toy doll which when the string is pulled he pipes up, "I'm saving the colonies."
 
Thus does your assertion that all Shepard says to Ashley's inquiries is "I'm saving the colonies" does not pan out.
 
"Again, you guys are working from the premise that she means a literal betrayal. I'm not. It's a betrayal of who she is and what you are. "You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me!" Everything that comes before the me is what she represents and trusts. That's why it comes last, not first. It defines who she is and what she believes. If you don't believe that's true, how do you define her?"
 
 
You are most certainly correct in your assertion that I am working from that perspective. What I am has never changed. She has. I defined her as a trusted friend, colleague, lover, and equal who shared the same values. It is evident from Horizon that she never knew who I was or my values. If she were in love, it was with an illusion and not Shepard.
 

Williams thinks of the Alliance first and foremost not only because she is an Alliance soldier, but because of what the relationship to the Alliance means personally as a direct result of what happened to her grandfather. Yet, in betraying me on Horizon she has betrayed him as well. This is because she did to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather and of all people, she should have known better. Isn't it funny how those who support Williams always seem to gloss over that fact as if it has no meaning. I submit that it does. Ashley's betrayal carries with it and inherent betrayal of herself and of her own family. Though I doubt that she will ever see that.

[Xilizhra]

Knight: Do you disagree with my premise that, on Horizon, Shepard was a total clod?

[YouthCultureForever]

@knightnblu

And I don't think you're reading enough into the scene.
 
I meant there was no way she couldn't make those conclusions in the first place. Just to clear that up.
 
It's Shepard who forgets the past. Not Ashley.


[quote]How does Ashley asking ""I'd like to believe you, Shepard. But I don't trust Cerberus. And it worries me that you do. What did they do to you? What if they're behind it? What if they're the ones working with the Collectors?" and Shepard's response of "You're letting how you feel about their history get in the way of the facts" equate to "I'm saving the colonies?"[/quote]He states he's saving the colonies is fact when that might not be the whole story. We know by the end the game that it isn't. And we knew right from the begining TIM was up to something. Shepard keeps beating her over the head with, "I'm saving the colonies and that's all there is to it." He doesn't listen to her. He dismisses her concerns.


[quote]You are most certainly correct in your assertion that I am working from that perspective. What I am has never changed. She has. I defined her as a trusted friend, colleague, lover, and equal who shared the same values. It is evident from Horizon that she never knew who I was or my values. If she were in love, it was with an illusion and not Shepard.[/quote]
No, not in relation to Shepard. Who is Ashley? How do you define her independently?
[/quote]
[quote]Williams thinks of the Alliance first and foremost not only because she is an Alliance soldier, but because of what the relationship to the Alliance means personally as a direct result of what happened to her grandfather. Yet, in betraying me on Horizon she has betrayed him as well. This is because she did to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather and of all people, she should have known better. Isn't it funny how those who support Williams always seem to gloss over that fact as if it has no meaning. I submit that it does. Ashley's betrayal carries with it and inherent betrayal of herself and of her own family. Though I doubt that she will ever see that.[/quote]
And you say I'm reading to much into things. There is no insult to her Grandfather's memory here. I don't see that at all. It makes no sense. Why would she crucify Shepard knowing what happened to her Grandfather? She wouldn't. Again, I don't belive this is about professional treason at all anyways.[/quote]

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[alperez]

knightnblu wrote...


Ashley: "I thought you were dead, Shepard. We all did."
 
Ashley embraces Shepard
 
Shepard: "You don't sound too happy to see me. Something bothering you, Ash?"
 
Ashley: "Yeah, something's bothering me. I spent the last two years believing you were dead! We had something Shepard. Something real. I...loved you. I almost... How could you put me through that? Why didn't you try to contact me? Why didn't you let me know you were alive?"
 
Shepard: "Not my choice. I spent the last two years in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
 
Ashley, backing away from Shepard: "You're with Cerberus now? Garrus too? I can't believe the reports were right."
 

SInce your tryng to put across you pov, and in some way explain what you mean i'll do the same, i've quoted the above for the simple reason that as i've suggested all along, its the intial part of the conversation that sets the tone.

This is not just an emotional reunion between lovers with no questions to be answered, where both parties are just going to enjoy the moment and the realisation that they are together once more, instead of realising why the reunion has issues other than just the reuninon of 2 lovers, you ignore the rest and imo concentrate on that point, from then on because you've ignored the questions behind shepards return, Ash's actions aren't ones that you wished to have in your reunion so therefore Ash must be completely at fault.

Ash's first line should tell you where she is and how she feels, yet you ignore this because its not where you wished her to be and how you wished her to feel.

Shepard's been dead for 2 years supposedly, suddenly he's right there in front of her, does she believe A. the lazurus experiment brought him back from the dead or B. Perhaps SHepard wasn't really dead, perhaps he faked his death somehow.

I contend that given the evidence Ash has its B. that Shepard has faked his death somehow, that because of the rumours spread by TIM, because of the fact she has absolutely no knowledge of the lazurus project and because he's now standing there in front of her eyes seemingly working with/for cerberus that the only sensible conclussion Ash can come to is that Shepard wasn't dead for 2 years, that somehow he was alive all this time.

To me this is why Ash would be slightly off and is why it leads to shepards question about what's bothering her.

Ash then hits Shepard with the key part of whats needling her, firstly the fact that she's spent 2 years believing shepard was dead (something which now appears to be completely wrong), then with an affirmation of how she felt about Shepard (something which she now questions whether shepard felt the same) then with 3 key questions to try and resolve the relationship she thought they shared.

How could you put me throught that?

Why didn't you try and contact me?

Why didn't you let me know you were alive?

We then get to the key part of the whole encounter, shepard here has a chance to salvage the relationship, a chance to explain his position and put Ash's mind at ease, show her that the relationship they shared meant as much to him as it clearly does/did to Ash.

What happens, shepard blows it completely, he doesn't manage to do any of those things and brings up the next serious bone of contention, cerberus.

After the inital part of the conversation, nothing shepard says about cerberus can have any bearing other than to further the wedge between them, simply because the inital part of the conversation is about Shepard and Ash and the relationship they shared.

Once the rift has been opened where Ash can no longer trust Shepard the man, she can then no longer trust Shepard the soldier either, so why or how could she accept any explantion about cerberus from someone she can no longer trust.

You continually say Ash should have faith and if she loved him then she must accept everything Shepard says because she knows Shepard.

I've said and explained why that could no longer be the case, why the shepard she knew may not exist in Ash's mind anymore and that once you accept that, it paints Horizon and Ash in a different light altogether.

Ash on horizon, is almost a woman scorned, the perception she's given by shepard is that their relationship didn't mean as much to him as it did to her, that in the end what they once shared may have been a lie, once they go down this road with the inital opening exchange its a small leap to where it ends up.

If Shepard's relationship with Ash was a joke, if Shepard didn't care as much about Ash as she did about him then what else is Ash wrong about in regards to Shepard?

Does shepard really stand for all the things she believed he did?

Is he the man she once knew?

Or was that man like her relationship with him a fabrication her mind played on her, an idealised version that glossed over the parts that painted it differently and instead only up to horizon allowed her to see Shepard through rose tinted glasses.

If you no longer trust you heart regarding how a lover really felt about you, should you continue to trust you heart regarding who a person is or what they stand for?

Or do you finally begin to start thinking with your head rather than a heart you can no longer trust.

Fact. Shepard is alive

Fact, Shepard is working with cerberus.

Fact. rumours have said this has been the case for some time.

If ash can no longer trust that Shepard cared for her as much as she did for him, if she can no longer trust that the man in front of her is the man she once knew and followed without question then all she has left to go with are the pertinent facts above.

The situation on Horizon, shepards almost dismantling of their relationship, his working with cerberus seemingly proving rumours true and Ash's own emotions all play into how Ash responds and why the reunion isn't the happy one we all wanted, the facts above all play into why Ash responds how she does, Shepard betrayed their relationship, he betrayed her and he betrayed the alliance is the conclussion all of these factors lead to.

In the intial exchange Shepard loses all benefits of doubt, all the faith that Ash should have in him is completely destroyed very quickly and nothing after that (at that particular point) will allow Ash to come to any other conclussion, other facts which prove Shepard right will be given less credance then the ones which prove him wrong.

When a lover is perceived by their love as having betrayed them, then in the midst of that betrayal or in the immediate aftermath of it, most people wouldn't or couldn't accept any evidence or information that proves that lover right, sometimes it takes time and distance and people other than the 2 lovers to bridge the gap that the betrayal or perceived betrayal has created.

Its human nature and Ash is only human after all.

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

iakus wrote...

"How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance... Anderson. You betrayed me!"

Justified or not. Mistaken or not. She questioned Shep's integrity.

Yup, this is one point you and I can agree on.

I chalk the whole scene up to poor writing. 

Then again, I have seen, in real life, people act this way. 

In real life, if you have a relationship you have to decide if you're going to be patient and work through the moment of irrationality or not.  My first reaction was "not"... but given time to cool off I'm open to giving her character a "second shot". 

By the Enkindlers, when did hell freeze over?  

I agree, it's bad writing all the way.  While I'm sure the intention was to "free up" Shepard for other romances and drive a wedge between him and the Alliance, it was very clumsily done.

I'm curious to see how the writers are going to dig themselves out of this hole.  I think I saw a tweet comparing the situation to Liara's LOTSB story.

[knightnblu]

Xilizhra asked - "Do you disagree with my premise that, on Horizon, Shepard was a total clod?"
 
If by "total clod" you mean that he was not as articulate, suave, or as quick as he would normally have been under other circumstances, then I agree with your assessment. See my answer below to another post for further on this.
 
 
YouthCultureForever said - "And I don't think you're reading enough into the scene.
I meant there was no way she couldn't make those conclusions in the first place. Just to clear that up. It's Shepard who forgets the past. Not Ashley."
 
That is the problem with inserting your viewpoints into a story. You create what isn't there to begin with. I read the events on Horizon as they were presented and at least try to stay true to type. By overlaying your wants, needs, etc. on the events, a person changes them to reflect his or her own view.
 
What is salient here isn't whether Ashley could make the connections or not. It is whether she would stay true to the man that she admitted to having loved. She didn't. How is Shepard responsible for that? When you state that it was Shepard who had forgotten the past what do you mean? Where he put his keys before he went on a two year hiatus? I really have no idea what you are speaking about.
 
"No, not in relation to Shepard. Who is Ashley? How do you define her independently?"
 
I thought I already had. She is a strong personality. An excellent soldier who is tortured by her family's past and the injustice done to her grandfather. She overcompensates with aggression her feelings of inadequacy and seeks to stand on her own two feet despite the odds or her failures. She cares deeply for her family and thinks of them constantly. She's tough, determined, and fierce in combat. I would go on to say that she is also fiercely loyal, but Horizon changed my mind.
 
 
"There is no insult to her Grandfather's memory here. I don't see that at all. It makes no sense. Why would she crucify Shepard knowing what happened to her Grandfather? She wouldn't. Again, I don't belive this is about professional treason at all anyways."
 
Really? You can't see the parallels between the events on Horizon and what happened to General Williams? The Alliance goes off half cocked and has a case of the ass at Gen. Williams regarding his failure to hold Shanxi. Worse, he surrendered to an alien species. He had no choice, civilians were dying, the Turians dropped rocks on anything that moved. His men were starving and he was out of options. Left with no other choice, he did what he had to do. Contrast that with Shepard.
 
Shepard's corpse is taken by the Shadow Broker, his carcass was stolen by Liara and handed over to Cerberus. Cerberus re-ignites the life in Shepard and returns him to the living two years later. Shepherd wakes up on the exam table to a pitched battle. During his two year sleep, TIM has been busy cutting Shepard off from the rest of the galaxy with rumors, innuendo, and flat out lies. Then Shepard is presented with a choice, work with Cerberus or walk, but if he walks he commits innocent lives to the abyss.
 
General Williams is convicted in the Court of Alliance opinion despite a stellar service record. They bring him back to Earth in chains, but never charge him because they made the decision to arrest him based on no information other than he had surrendered and therefore lacked any evidence for further proceedings. They demoted him, sent him out of service on an early retirement and blackballed his family. He spends the rest of his adult life as a lowly construction worker and branded as a traitor to humanity where he was once a flag officer of the Alliance.
 
What does Ashley do with Shepard? She convicts him without having a handle on the facts, choosing to believe rumors and innuendo rather than the man whom she once loved and knew. She calls him a traitor, spitting out the term with venom and anger. Just as the Alliance had once done to General Williams. Then she bolts. Ashley Williams was every bit as petty and heartless as was the Alliance in their assessment of General Williams. How can you not see the similarities?
 
It is almost as if Ashley re-wrote her grandfather's situation and placed Shepard in the lead. Never once as she is berating Shepard for his perceived betrayals does she even notice what she is doing. She never once stops and thinks, "Hold on, I don't have all of the facts. This seems vaguely familiar" She does to Shepard what the Alliance did to her grandfather in spades. Way to go Williams, that's showin' 'em.
 
Remember how Ashley used to ****** and moan about how the Alliance had mistreated dear old granddad? How dear old dad worked his fingers to the bone and couldn't get ahead? How she enlisted in the Alliance despite being blacklisted and followed Dad's path despite the odds? How a Williams had to be better than the best just to remain above suspicion? Any of that familiar at all? She knew better and she still went down that road.
 
Apparently, I am the only one who caught that. So maybe I am not all that unreasonable when I expect her to use a modicum of intelligence to figure out what she is doing. She should have known better.
 
 
alperez said - "We then get to the key part of the whole encounter, shepard here has a chance to salvage the relationship, a chance to explain his position and put Ash's mind at ease, show her that the relationship they shared meant as much to him as it clearly does/did to Ash."
 
Wait a minute, you and others consistently harp on Ash just being a human being with emotions and that they are swirling around her, etc., etc., but Shepard is made out of stone?
 
Shepard just fought for his life for about twenty minutes using experimental technology that might keep the Collector bugs off of him and trying to rescue Ashley and the colony at the same time. No pressure. After having just gotten the Colony defenses working and beating off a Praetorian the Collector ship lifts off. Before he can even catch his breath, in walks Williams and she lays a guilt trip on him. Is it really surprising that he would be somewhat stunned?
 
While he's babbling about being in a coma and Cerberus fixing him, Ashley goes off on the word "Cerberus" and Shepard is supposed to remain stoic through that as well? As for me, I was going WTF? Why should Shepard be any different? He isn't human? He doesn't possess emotions? Why is Ashley given all the perks of being human, but Shepard must remain an automaton? Doesn't seem fair to me that Williams gets a pass, but Shepard has to pony up.
 
"Ash on horizon, is almost a woman scorned, the perception she's given by shepard is that their relationship didn't mean as much to him as it did to her, that in the end what they once shared may have been a lie, once they go down this road with the inital opening exchange its a small leap to where it ends up."


Almost? According to the game dialog, your post, and my assertions, that is exactly what she is feeling. What you are essentially saying is that Shepard should have abandoned the colonies and fell down weeping at Williams feet begging for her forgiveness for dying. The two are allegedly on the same side, but it is Williams who takes the selfish road. She is pissed off because Shepard didn't phone, mail, or text her. Are you kidding me?
 
Didn't she see that pile of Collector corpses she had to step over to get to fire control? Wasn't she frozen in place as the Collectors removed and packaged the colonists? Didn't she know that she was slated for the exact same fate? I think that she did, but that she didn't give a rat's furry hind end. It isn't about saving lives, it's about Ashley. Hence her petulant tirade.
 
In my book, female genitalia doesn't give one free reign to ride roughshod over anyone who gets in your way. Where I come from, we call that a b!tch. While I won't go so far as to apply that label to Williams, she comes close in my opinion. Her thoughts are mostly selfish on Horizon and like Shylock, she wants her pound of flesh. Shepard doesn't have time for that.
 
He's concerned with far larger issues. The disappearance of 100,000 colonists for example. Men, women, children have all been forcibly taken. The Alliance is doing nothing about it. The Citadel Council is doing nothing about it. If anyone is going to stop it, it has to be Shepard. So far, he has been the only one who has the talent, ability, and guts to do the hard jobs (whether that is a testament to the character, us, or BioWare or all three I leave to your determination).
 
And here is the woman that he loves standing front and center giving him crap for doing what must be done despite his having no choice in the matter. Beautiful.
 
"The situation on Horizon, shepards almost dismantling of their relationship, his working with cerberus seemingly proving rumours true and Ash's own emotions all play into how Ash responds and why the reunion isn't the happy one we all wanted, the facts above all play into why Ash responds how she does, Shepard betrayed their relationship, he betrayed her and he betrayed the alliance is the conclussion all of these factors lead to."
 
 
If that is what you really believe, then we have arrived at the point where I must simply inform you that we are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no way that I will ever see that point of view based upon what you have written and the evidence you have provided.

[Xilizhra]

What does Ashley do with Shepard? She convicts him without having a handle on the facts, choosing to believe rumors and innuendo rather than the man whom she once loved and knew. She calls him a traitor, spitting out the term with venom and anger. Just as the Alliance had once done to General Williams. Then she bolts. Ashley Williams was every bit as petty and heartless as was the Alliance in their assessment of General Williams. How can you not see the similarities?

I do have to point out a difference: Ashley didn't do anything legal, official, or actually able to affect Shepard in any concrete manner in any way. She just yelled. It wasn't a calculated effort of destruction, it was an on-the-spot mistake.

While he's babbling about being in a coma and Cerberus fixing him, Ashley goes off on the word "Cerberus" and Shepard is supposed to remain stoic through that as well? As for me, I was going WTF? Why should Shepard be any different? He isn't human? He doesn't possess emotions? Why is Ashley given all the perks of being human, but Shepard must remain an automaton? Doesn't seem fair to me that Williams gets a pass, but Shepard has to pony up.

True; of course, Maleshep never displays emotion anyway, so I can't blame his players for expecting him to continue acting like a cardboard robot, which he does so well at other times. And Femshep doesn't have the romance thing going.

Almost? According to the game dialog, your post, and my assertions, that is exactly what she is feeling. What you are essentially saying is that Shepard should have abandoned the colonies and fell down weeping at Williams feet begging for her forgiveness for dying. The two are allegedly on the same side, but it is Williams who takes the selfish road. She is pissed off because Shepard didn't phone, mail, or text her. Are you kidding me?

To be fair, she wasn't that angry at that; it only went bad when Shepard mentioned Cerberus.

[knightnblu]

Xilizhra wrote...

What does Ashley do with Shepard? She convicts him without having a handle on the facts, choosing to believe rumors and innuendo rather than the man whom she once loved and knew. She calls him a traitor, spitting out the term with venom and anger. Just as the Alliance had once done to General Williams. Then she bolts. Ashley Williams was every bit as petty and heartless as was the Alliance in their assessment of General Williams. How can you not see the similarities?

I do have to point out a difference: Ashley didn't do anything legal, official, or actually able to affect Shepard in any concrete manner in any way. She just yelled. It wasn't a calculated effort of destruction, it was an on-the-spot mistake.

While he's babbling about being in a coma and Cerberus fixing him, Ashley goes off on the word "Cerberus" and Shepard is supposed to remain stoic through that as well? As for me, I was going WTF? Why should Shepard be any different? He isn't human? He doesn't possess emotions? Why is Ashley given all the perks of being human, but Shepard must remain an automaton? Doesn't seem fair to me that Williams gets a pass, but Shepard has to pony up.

Almost? According to the game dialog, your post, and my assertions, that is exactly what she is feeling. What you are essentially saying is that Shepard should have abandoned the colonies and fell down weeping at Williams feet begging for her forgiveness for dying. The two are allegedly on the same side, but it is Williams who takes the selfish road. She is pissed off because Shepard didn't phone, mail, or text her. Are you kidding me?

To be fair, she wasn't that angry at that; it only went bad when Shepard mentioned Cerberus.

While it is true that Williams did not clap Shepard in irons, her rejection of him does have an impact. As for me I was floored (which I have previously mentioned is the sign of a great game). Shepard would have been floored. He would have been left wondering what he was fighting for. Why am I killing myself? For what? Those would have been my questions if it had happened to me.

Consider, you go to Horizon to save the colony, but also to save the one you love. Going through my mind the entire time was the question: Can I save Ashley? You fight, you progress, and then you win. Where's Ash? But when you find her, it isn't what you expected. It isn't even pleasant. It's harsh.

Something like that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. That taste was still kicking when the email apology showed up. I was not impressed. If BioWare cares to fix what they fouled up then Williams has got to give me a credible explanation of her malfunction on Horizon. Either that, or I want her off of my ship, assuming of course that I am in command of anything.


Sorry for the multiple edits, I hate the quotation system on this board.

Modifié par knightnblu, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

While it is true that Williams did not clap Shepard in irons, her rejection of him does have an impact. As for me I was floored (which I have previously mentioned is the sign of a great game). Shepard would have been floored. He would have been left wondering what he was fighting for. Why am I killing myself? For what? Those would have been my questions if it had happened to me.

Consider, you go to Horizon to save the colony, but also to save the one you love. Going through my mind the entire time was the question: Can I save Ashley? You fight, you progress, and then you win. Where's Ash? But when you find her, it isn't what you expected. It isn't even pleasant. It's harsh.

Something like that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. That taste was still kicking when the email apology showed up. I was not impressed. If BioWare cares to fix what they fouled up then Williams has got to give me a credible explanation of her malfunction on Horizon. Either that, or I want her off of my ship, assuming of course that I am in command of anything.


Sorry for the multiple edits, I hate the quotation system on this board.

One might say Shepard needed his own persoanl mission to deal with unfinished business :innocent:

[AdmiralCheez]

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE

Vertigo_1 wrote...

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/118115496695566336
"Will Ashley have actual armor in Mass Effect 3?”

"Yes, a fem. version of blue Alliance armor we've shown on Kaidan."

OMIGOD OMIGOD OMIGOD



EDIT: Posted this in the wrong thread but I'm leaving it anyway.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:23 .