1035 réponses à ce sujet

[YouthCultureForever]

knightnblu wrote...

Now wait a minute, didn't you just get through praising Ashley for her hard stance against doing anything against the Alliance or working for Cerberus? To me, that means she would never have made Shepard's decision to help the colonists. She would have told TIM to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and consigned the colonists to oblivion. Or am I missing something?
 
If I have misunderstood your position, I apologize. However, you would not be the first to make such an assertion on this thread if I have not misunderstood.

I don't praise Ashley per se. I defend her. I think her actions are reasonable given the situation. I understand were she's coming from. Even a crazy woman doesn't go crazy for no reason. When I demonstrate her confidence in the Alliance I'm only expressing what she says. Not necessarily agreeing with what she says. 

She posseses a unique perspective because of the intel. She'd learned rather recently Cerberus could be double dealing with the Collectors. It deepened her distrust of them. She's especially biased on Horizon because of that information. It's easy to support the Alliance when they're affirming her judgement on Cerberus.
 

And how exactly do you construe that there is absolutely no professional treason going on here? Williams says that Shepard is working for the enemy. That Cerberus is a terrorist organization. That she never expected that Shepard could sink so low. Does all of that sound completely personal to you? Isn't she questioning his professional dedication? Questioning his loyalty to the Alliance? Does she not call him a traitor to his face? Seems that way to me.

Romanced Ashley says, "How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."

Platonic Ashley says, "You turned your back on everything we stood for."

Those lines mean the same thing. The second statement is just more vague. Both accuse Shepard of personal betrayal alone. It's intimacy that spurs the more expressive response. The luxory status of the relationship emboldens her. You're more than just the old Skipper thus she's more willing to describe in dirty detail your offense.

I took that from an earlier post because it's important you don't overlook the comparison.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 26 septembre 2011 - 11:59 .

[Iakus]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Romanced Ashley says, "How could you just turn your back on all of us? You betrayed the Alliance...Anderson. You betrayed me."

Platonic Ashley says, "You turned your back on everything we stood for."

Those lines mean the same thing. The second statement is just more vague. Both accuse Shepard of personal betrayal alone. It's intimacy that spurs the more expressive response. The luxory status of the relationship emboldens her. You're more than just the old Skipper thus she's more willing to describe in dirty detail your offense.

I took that from an earlier post because it's you don't overlook the comparison.

Both statements sound like all-encompasing accusations of treason, personal and professional.  The romanced one places a greater emphasis on the personal, though, as it gets singled out.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

Both statements sound like all-encompasing accusations of treason, personal and professional.  The romanced one places a greater emphasis on the personal, though, as it gets singled out.

Consider in context with Romanced Kaidan then. The Virmire Survivors are treated equally so this is significant.

"You've turned your back on everything we believed in. You betrayed the Alliance...You betrayed me."

What did they believe in? He tells us, the Alliance. Everything they represent. Shepard betrayed their beliefs, she betrayed him.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[TK514]

As far as I can tell, the only way to get out of that conversation without Ash losing it is if there were an option for Shepard to straight out lie. It is obviously the word Cerberus that causes her to withdraw and completely stop listening to him or anyone else who might take part in that conversation, as evidenced by the immediate change in posture and her taking several steps away. It wouldn't matter at that point if he were to give the most eloquent, reasoned, impassioned, and convincing speech of an Asari's lifetime, because she's not listening. Her brain shut down and her mouth took over.

It also seems clear to me that she was simply not capable of rational discussion at the time of their meeting on Horizon (calling Shepard a god to start with should have been a big clue she wasn't quite herself). Maybe if she'd talked to post-conversation Anderson first and then run into Shepard she'd have been able to discuss it in a reasonable way, but given the situation and her pretty obvious emotional instability during that scene it was a no-win for Commander Shepard.

As for the Original Topic, no. I didn't really like any of the potential LI's in ME1, and Kaidan had Carth Onassi's voice, so Ash went out with a bang.

[knightnblu]

Xilizhra wrote...

I really don't care, I just want to get on to the execution and be done with it.

I have to interject here and say that not taking knowledge and reason from a situation like this is simply idiotic.

So when you are trying to decide whether to purchase a new pair of shoes, it is important to you if Gino slips and falls in his apartment in Bologna? Frankly, I find that idiotic.

[knightnblu]

TK514 wrote...

As far as I can tell, the only way to get out of that conversation without Ash losing it is if there were an option for Shepard to straight out lie. It is obviously the word Cerberus that causes her to withdraw and completely stop listening to him or anyone else who might take part in that conversation, as evidenced by the immediate change in posture and her taking several steps away. It wouldn't matter at that point if he were to give the most eloquent, reasoned, impassioned, and convincing speech of an Asari's lifetime, because she's not listening. Her brain shut down and her mouth took over.

It also seems clear to me that she was simply not capable of rational discussion at the time of their meeting on Horizon (calling Shepard a god to start with should have been a big clue she wasn't quite herself). Maybe if she'd talked to post-conversation Anderson first and then run into Shepard she'd have been able to discuss it in a reasonable way, but given the situation and her pretty obvious emotional instability during that scene it was a no-win for Commander Shepard.

As for the Original Topic, no. I didn't really like any of the potential LI's in ME1, and Kaidan had Carth Onassi's voice, so Ash went out with a bang.

Yeah, I think that the "God" comment was meant not only to shut up Delan, but also as a slight against Shepard as a form of Sarcasm.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

Yeah, I think that the "God" comment was meant not only to shut up Delan, but also as a slight against Shepard as a form of Sarcasm.

Given the Kaidan line is that he's in teh presence of "A legend.  And a ghost" I think it's just some hyperbole concerning Shepard's exploits in ME1.  And a not-so-subtle-nod to the fact that she's religious.

[Made Nightwing]

laecraft wrote...

A question to everyone on this thread, especially to those who think that Ashley's suspicions and accusations are justified. This is something I've been wondering for a while:

In your opinion, what does the Alliance stand for?

The Alliance is the thin blue line standing between humanity and the rest of the galaxy. They are a military and political entity who have had great success in advancing the human cause, but now, with ever mounting pressure as one of the new big boys on the block, they are being forced to stretch out, to become peacekeepers, diplomats and negotiators.

The Alliance represents the best of humanity, the best trained, best equipped soldiers around, dedicated diplomats and negotiators (see Chairman Burns and that guy on the Citadel who was burning himself out trying to keep negotiations on track with the salarians), and a well disciplined and motivated fleet.

The Alliance wants a say in how the galaxy spins, so that they can better safeguard human colonies, particularly those at risk out in the Traverse. Unlike Cerberus, who want complete control with humanity on top.

[paul165]

laecraft wrote...

A question to everyone on this thread, especially to those who think that Ashley's suspicions and accusations are justified. This is something I've been wondering for a while:

In your opinion, what does the Alliance stand for?

The Alliance is a military-economic bloc dedicated to the advancement and protection of humanity. How far it will go to achieve those goals varies between different groups within the Alliance although all believe that they are the only thing that protects humanity from the ravening monsters beyond the Charon relay - there is a great deal of evidence that they are right.

Although the Alliance has noble goals it is willing to accept dubious methods in pursuit of these goals which has led to what many alien races perceive as an unhealthily close relationship to Cerberus. How close the relationship is and whether it is necessary is again debatable.

Enough of what I consider it to be... what does it stand for? Human advancement although they choose to pursue that goal through political integration and ultimately domination rather than Cerberus' preferred methods of assassination and technological research. Do I have a problem with this? No but I am one of those wierd people who would love post TIM Cerberus to be integrated into ONI (and given an ethics oversight commitee:innocent:)

Modifié par paul165, 27 septembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Eyeshield21]

Is Ashley still your girl?

[knightnblu]

Let's try to approach the events on Horizon from a perspective of trust. Regardless of how you view Ashley's morality on Horizon,  some ding her for abandoning and betraying Shepard and others hold an opposing view, it seems to me that trust is the crux of the matter. Why is this so?
 
In a combat unit the personnel assigned to that unit must have trust in one another or combat performance will suffer. If one were to examine a combat unit that has had time to develop such trust and contrast it with a unit where the soldiers were equally trained and led, the new unit would have higher casualties if both units entered into combat in the same circumstances. This is because the men of the newer unit are not yet comfortable with their fellows and are uncertain of their performance and if they can truly be trusted to watch your back. This is not uncommon because it is merely human nature.
 
Oh sure, you can hope that they will cover your six, but you don't know that they will. This is the position that any replacement finds himself in when he enters a new unit that is in combat. This is why the NCO's assign experienced members to the new member to insure that he integrates fully in order to minimize unit disruption.
 
That is one reason for insuring trust. The second reason is leadership. In order to be an effective leader, your people must trust you. This is particularly true for a combat unit. When you say "go" you men have to go. If they don't trust their leadership, they may hesitate resulting in deaths or missed combat objectives. From a military standpoint, trust is imperative.
 
From a personal standpoint, trust is also necessary in establishing any form of relationship. Williams says that she loved Shepard. That alone implies a great deal of trust. The intimacy between them forged an even stronger bond between them and by necessity forged an even stronger trust.
 
Therefore, we have multiple layers of trust between Williams and Shepard. It is from this that I submit that Williams had to have had a great deal of knowledge of Shepard. Otherwise, she would have fully trusted a man that she had no knowledge of, or would have to have been what is commonly known as a rube. While Williams may be many things, being prone to establishing great trust with strangers is not one of them.
 
It has been asserted that in Williams perception, Shepard violated that trust first. This comes from Ashley's perceptions that: a. rumors about Shepard are flying all over the place in the highest reaches of the Council races, b. Alliance Intel has reported that Cerberus may be behind the missing colonies and that Shepard is alive and working for them, and c. Williams is assigned to investigate the next colony to get hit by Cerberus according to a tip off.
 
Adding to this mix is Williams previous history with Cerberus. She and Shepard had taken down several Cerberus facilities and she is aware that Cerberus assassinated Alliance Admiral Kahoku. Further, she is also aware that Cerberus has murdered an Alliance unit by luring them into a thresher maw's nest.
 
Additionally, it has also been floated that Williams was emotionally compromised on Horizon. Her love for Shepard followed almost immediately by the grief of his loss, followed by the shock of rumors that he never died, but was alive, followed by actually seeing him again all worked toward giving her a nervous breakdown of sorts on Horizon. This is the reason that Ashley lost it, so it has been asserted.
 
I submit, that all of these assertions are irrelevant. This is because Williams should have known better. While it is true that rumors were flying all over the galaxy, Williams was the one person who knew the truth. That Shepard was not some sort of a monster. She knew that he was principled and operated with honor and with traditional human ethics despite being above the law as a Council Spectre.
 
Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.
 
Further, in order to do so Shepard would have had to fake his own death. That means that Shepard would also have had a hand in the destruction of the SR1 and the deaths of his first officer and 20 crewmen, making Shepard a mass murderer in addition to a traitor to the Alliance and Earth. I would say that Williams does not go down this road in my estimation.
 
She would have dismissed these rumors and any Intel concerning Shepard and his illicit ties as nothing more than hogwash because she knew better. She knew the man that she loved. She knew his history and his values and she also knew that he has always done his best in order to save as many lives as he could. Therefore, rumors and intel would not have caused Williams to have believed that Shepard had betrayed the trust that the Alliance and the Citadel Council had placed in him nor would it have caused her to believe that he had abandoned her.
 
Then comes the Collector attack on Horizon. She is frozen in place, but aware to her surroundings. She hears small arms fire in the distance and realizes that there is some resistance and that is followed by the activation of the colony defenses. Shortly after, the enemy vessel flees.
 
When she hears Shepard's voice, she knows that he is alive. She also knows that two years have passed and she has not heard word one from him and that pisses her off to no end. She swallows her anger and then goes out to greet Shepard. She asks him how he could have put her through the nightmare of his death. At that point, we know what is driving Ashley is personal and had nothing to do with rumor or Intel.
 
Further, she has the following facts to take into consideration regarding Horizon:
 
1. For a brief period of time, she thought the colony lost because there were no sounds of resistance. Then, she hears small arms fire that gives her reason to hope.
 
2. She hears the colony's defenses begin to fire and she realizes that the enemy ship has come under attack. This means that the resistance has escalated.
 
3. The enemy ship retreats with smoke streaming out of its hull.
 
4. Ashley views dozens of enemy corpses as a result of the successful defense of Horizon.
 
5. She knows who is to thank for the defense of the colony because she hears Shepard first, then sees him.
 
When she asks Shepard why he never opened his mouth in the past two years to her, he replies that he had no choice in the matter. That he was in a coma as Cerberus reconstructed him. That's when the anger comes flooding back as she backs away from his as if he were toxic. From that point, Williams isn't interested in anything that Shepard has to say from that point forward.
 
She doesn't ask anymore questions, she just makes accusations. She accuses Shepard of treason, says that he betrayed her, calls his intelligence into question and departs. At this point, it is clear that Williams no longer trusts Shepard and because of that, Shepard can no longer trust Williams. She never asked him why he was on Horizon. She never asked him why he was working with Cerberus. She never asked him if he trusted Cerberus. She never asked him if he still had any feelings for her. She just slams the door in his face.
 
Apparently such behavior is enough to obtain a cheering section because Ashley does have her defenders. But ultimately what is lost her is the trust that once existed between Shepard and Williams. I have pointed out that the lack of this trust makes Williams a wild card. This is because it is trust that acts as a social lubricant that allows people to expect something familiar. When that trust is gone, uncertainly rules and people have no idea what to expect.
 
When you are headed out to the local restaurant and there is no trust, that is bad. But when your life hangs in the balance, such a lack of trust can be fatal. This is different from the trust between soldiers spoken of before. This is because that trust was due to not knowing "if" the other within the unit can be trusted. Williams cannot be trusted because she "demonstrated" that she could no longer be trusted. That is an entirely different thing altogether.
 
One does not go into combat with somebody that they don't trust unless there is no other choice. This axiom also applies to Williams. Shepard has proven that he doesn't need her with his mission success in ME2. Her breach of trust places her in the "wild card" category meaning that he can have no idea of what to expect from her or if she will even follow his orders, he has no idea if she will be a subversive force in his command in ME3. Therefore, the best option is to get rid of her and the attendant problems that she will carry with her under his command.
 
In short, Ashley Williams has gone from LI to a destabilizing element in less than the three minutes she needed to betray the trust I placed in her. She took a large caliber weapon and shot herself in the foot with it where Shepard is concerned. That is why I don't want her on my ship, providing that I even have one anymore. With the stakes as they are in ME3, the problems that I will have to deal with, the counterattack I will have to organize, I don't need any extra hassles and that means that I don't need to deal with Williams' BS in ME3.
 
That is why I say that she has to come up with a credible and convincing reason that I can still trust her. Otherwise, stick a fork in her because she's done and I am booting her behind off of the Normandy at the earliest opportunity because she has made herself into a problem and I don't have the time to solve it.

[Eyeshield21]

knightnblu wrote...

Let's try to approach the events on Horizon from a perspective of trust. Regardless of how you view Ashley's morality on Horizon,  some ding her for abandoning and betraying Shepard and others hold an opposing view, it seems to me that trust is the crux of the matter. Why is this so?
 
In a combat unit the personnel assigned to that unit must have trust in one another or combat performance will suffer. If one were to examine a combat unit that has had time to develop such trust and contrast it with a unit where the soldiers were equally trained and led, the new unit would have higher casualties if both units entered into combat in the same circumstances. This is because the men of the newer unit are not yet comfortable with their fellows and are uncertain of their performance and if they can truly be trusted to watch your back. This is not uncommon because it is merely human nature.
 
Oh sure, you can hope that they will cover your six, but you don't know that they will. This is the position that any replacement finds himself in when he enters a new unit that is in combat. This is why the NCO's assign experienced members to the new member to insure that he integrates fully in order to minimize unit disruption.
 
That is one reason for insuring trust. The second reason is leadership. In order to be an effective leader, your people must trust you. This is particularly true for a combat unit. When you say "go" you men have to go. If they don't trust their leadership, they may hesitate resulting in deaths or missed combat objectives. From a military standpoint, trust is imperative.
 
From a personal standpoint, trust is also necessary in establishing any form of relationship. Williams says that she loved Shepard. That alone implies a great deal of trust. The intimacy between them forged an even stronger bond between them and by necessity forged an even stronger trust.
 
Therefore, we have multiple layers of trust between Williams and Shepard. It is from this that I submit that Williams had to have had a great deal of knowledge of Shepard. Otherwise, she would have fully trusted a man that she had no knowledge of, or would have to have been what is commonly known as a rube. While Williams may be many things, being prone to establishing great trust with strangers is not one of them.
 
It has been asserted that in Williams perception, Shepard violated that trust first. This comes from Ashley's perceptions that: a. rumors about Shepard are flying all over the place in the highest reaches of the Council races, b. Alliance Intel has reported that Cerberus may be behind the missing colonies and that Shepard is alive and working for them, and c. Williams is assigned to investigate the next colony to get hit by Cerberus according to a tip off.
 
Adding to this mix is Williams previous history with Cerberus. She and Shepard had taken down several Cerberus facilities and she is aware that Cerberus assassinated Alliance Admiral Kahoku. Further, she is also aware that Cerberus has murdered an Alliance unit by luring them into a thresher maw's nest.
 
Additionally, it has also been floated that Williams was emotionally compromised on Horizon. Her love for Shepard followed almost immediately by the grief of his loss, followed by the shock of rumors that he never died, but was alive, followed by actually seeing him again all worked toward giving her a nervous breakdown of sorts on Horizon. This is the reason that Ashley lost it, so it has been asserted.
 
I submit, that all of these assertions are irrelevant. This is because Williams should have known better. While it is true that rumors were flying all over the galaxy, Williams was the one person who knew the truth. That Shepard was not some sort of a monster. She knew that he was principled and operated with honor and with traditional human ethics despite being above the law as a Council Spectre.
 
Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.
 
Further, in order to do so Shepard would have had to fake his own death. That means that Shepard would also have had a hand in the destruction of the SR1 and the deaths of his first officer and 20 crewmen, making Shepard a mass murderer in addition to a traitor to the Alliance and Earth. I would say that Williams does not go down this road in my estimation.
 
She would have dismissed these rumors and any Intel concerning Shepard and his illicit ties as nothing more than hogwash because she knew better. She knew the man that she loved. She knew his history and his values and she also knew that he has always done his best in order to save as many lives as he could. Therefore, rumors and intel would not have caused Williams to have believed that Shepard had betrayed the trust that the Alliance and the Citadel Council had placed in him nor would it have caused her to believe that he had abandoned her.
 
Then comes the Collector attack on Horizon. She is frozen in place, but aware to her surroundings. She hears small arms fire in the distance and realizes that there is some resistance and that is followed by the activation of the colony defenses. Shortly after, the enemy vessel flees.
 
When she hears Shepard's voice, she knows that he is alive. She also knows that two years have passed and she has not heard word one from him and that pisses her off to no end. She swallows her anger and then goes out to greet Shepard. She asks him how he could have put her through the nightmare of his death. At that point, we know what is driving Ashley is personal and had nothing to do with rumor or Intel.
 
Further, she has the following facts to take into consideration regarding Horizon:
 
1. For a brief period of time, she thought the colony lost because there were no sounds of resistance. Then, she hears small arms fire that gives her reason to hope.
 
2. She hears the colony's defenses begin to fire and she realizes that the enemy ship has come under attack. This means that the resistance has escalated.
 
3. The enemy ship retreats with smoke streaming out of its hull.
 
4. Ashley views dozens of enemy corpses as a result of the successful defense of Horizon.
 
5. She knows who is to thank for the defense of the colony because she hears Shepard first, then sees him.
 
When she asks Shepard why he never opened his mouth in the past two years to her, he replies that he had no choice in the matter. That he was in a coma as Cerberus reconstructed him. That's when the anger comes flooding back as she backs away from his as if he were toxic. From that point, Williams isn't interested in anything that Shepard has to say from that point forward.
 
She doesn't ask anymore questions, she just makes accusations. She accuses Shepard of treason, says that he betrayed her, calls his intelligence into question and departs. At this point, it is clear that Williams no longer trusts Shepard and because of that, Shepard can no longer trust Williams. She never asked him why he was on Horizon. She never asked him why he was working with Cerberus. She never asked him if he trusted Cerberus. She never asked him if he still had any feelings for her. She just slams the door in his face.
 
Apparently such behavior is enough to obtain a cheering section because Ashley does have her defenders. But ultimately what is lost her is the trust that once existed between Shepard and Williams. I have pointed out that the lack of this trust makes Williams a wild card. This is because it is trust that acts as a social lubricant that allows people to expect something familiar. When that trust is gone, uncertainly rules and people have no idea what to expect.
 
When you are headed out to the local restaurant and there is no trust, that is bad. But when your life hangs in the balance, such a lack of trust can be fatal. This is different from the trust between soldiers spoken of before. This is because that trust was due to not knowing "if" the other within the unit can be trusted. Williams cannot be trusted because she "demonstrated" that she could no longer be trusted. That is an entirely different thing altogether.
 
One does not go into combat with somebody that they don't trust unless there is no other choice. This axiom also applies to Williams. Shepard has proven that he doesn't need her with his mission success in ME2. Her breach of trust places her in the "wild card" category meaning that he can have no idea of what to expect from her or if she will even follow his orders, he has no idea if she will be a subversive force in his command in ME3. Therefore, the best option is to get rid of her and the attendant problems that she will carry with her under his command.
 
In short, Ashley Williams has gone from LI to a destabilizing element in less than the three minutes she needed to betray the trust I placed in her. She took a large caliber weapon and shot herself in the foot with it where Shepard is concerned. That is why I don't want her on my ship, providing that I even have one anymore. With the stakes as they are in ME3, the problems that I will have to deal with, the counterattack I will have to organize, I don't need any extra hassles and that means that I don't need to deal with Williams' BS in ME3.
 
That is why I say that she has to come up with a credible and convincing reason that I can still trust her. Otherwise, stick a fork in her because she's done and I am booting her behind off of the Normandy at the earliest opportunity because she has made herself into a problem and I don't have the time to solve it.

well said, bro. well said.
Ash needs to work for it to win me back!

[Ryzaki]

Heh. I can picture my Shepard politly asking Ash/Kaidan to "garner the support of the other races" pushing a notepad in her/his hand and booting her/him off the ship while fistpumping the moment s/he's gone.

[alperez]

Knight

Originally i believed you misinterpreted Horizon and tried to explain why i believed your interpretation to be wrong, after your last post i'm now convinced that's not the case, instead you've already decided Ash is completely wrong and nothing will convince you otherwise.

Your last post shows a complete reluctance to accept any version of horizon that doesn't concur with how you've perceived it and to me this is where i really must take issue.

You completely ignore Ash's state of mind and her knowledge of events and dismiss them as irrelevant which shows that you have absolutely no understanding of how people work whatsoever.

Then because you've dismissed these things as relevant you try to suggest that the meeting on horizon involves no extra factors other than 2 people who should love and trust each other.

The situation on horizon does not exist in a bubble, its not a simple case of 2 people in love and whether or not they should trust each other simply because there are extra variable's added to the equation.

Its not a case of Ash meeting Shepard, Shepard wanting her to trust him with no other factors coming to play, yet by ignoring and dismissing these other factors you show everything i've said in my posts about your position to be true.

If you won't understand why someones state of mind plays an important factor in why they make certain choices, if you can't accept that having a different understanding of events can cause someone to come to a different conclussion, then what your displaying is pigheadedness of the highest order.

Basically rather than analyse the situation, weigh up the different factors, instead simply because Ash doesn't act how you wish her to you've decided that means its Ash whos completely at fault and no justification can ever move you from that position.

If someone wrongs you or you perceive they've wronged you, do you just completely ignore why they did so and wait for them to apologise for the perceived affront, are you completely right all of the time?

For most people the answer to that would be a resounding no, they would try to figure out why what happened, happened, they would put themselves in the other person's shoes and try to understand why they acted how they did.

Perhaps after that they would realise they shared some of the blame for how things worked out, or perhaps they would realise the other person was in fact completely in the wrong, but they would at least try to acknowledge why the other person acted how they did.

Instead of doing this for horizon, you completely dismiss Ash's viewpoint as irrelevant, her knowledge of the facts of the situation don't matter, instead its simply the action she takes that you consider, nothing else is given any weight in your assessment of Horizon because its the result that matters.

Ash's state of mind and knowledge of the situation is irrelevant, seriously, its the state of mind of someone and their understanding of the situation that inform the choices they make.

Trust and loyalty are the key factors in your assesment, yet you completely ignore the reasons why people trust people, why they are loyal to people.

From the very beginning of the encounter, its clear Shepard's perceived actions regarding how he's treated Ash have caused that trust to be put into question, its clear shepard's perceived actions in working with cerberus have caused the loyalty to be put into question.

I and others have tried to explain why that is the case, instead of adding this to your assessment though you dismiss these reasons as being irrelevant which shows a complete lack of understanding and analysis i'm stunned by.

Rather than allow any understanding of these factors, you instead bring up elements unknown to Ash and try to portray these as key factors which again proves my point about your posts, your viewpoint is so skewed from Shepard's perspective that you can't see any other.

We know certain facts regarding events that Ash does not, since Ash doesn't have that info then these facts are irrelevant to why she acts how she does, yet instead of understanding that you give these facts supreme weight while completely dismissing others that actually do carry weight.

You completely concentrate only on one pov on horizon, therefore you completely dismiss the other as irrelevant which shows that you've already judged events and nothing will change that judgement whatsoever.

Since you can't accept the simple basic premise that horizon is an encounter with 2 people coming from 2 very different perspectives and with different emotional states and understanding of events then it can only lead to the conclussion you come to.

I disagree both with the conclussion you make and with the method you use to come to that conclussion.

Your last post proves to me that your so entrenched in your position nothing i say will make the slighest difference or that you'll ever allow your position be challenged, that instead you've made your mind up, closed it off to anything that could contradict your view and that nothing anyone can say will ever make you even question yourself.

At this stage i feel we have no other option to agree to disagree, we could continue to argue this until the cows come home but there really is no point is there.

[Made Nightwing]

I like this human, he understands.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
I submit, that all of these assertions are irrelevant. This is because Williams should have known better. While it is true that rumors were flying all over the galaxy, Williams was the one person who knew the truth. That Shepard was not some sort of a monster. She knew that he was principled and operated with honor and with traditional human ethics despite being above the law as a Council Spectre.

I sumbit that until Horizon, Ashley did know better.  After all she said "I can't believe the reports were true"  I do agree that Ash's ultimate attitude is far more fitting for a renegade Shepard.  But that's what you get with one-size-fits-all writing.  I chalk that up as a fault of the writers, not the character.
 

Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.

There are a few, less obvious possibilities:

1) Shepard was always a Cerberus agent.  Even before Eden Prime.  His entire attitude before was an elaborate con.  Everything Shepard did was a lie to increase Cerberus influence among the Alliance and the Council.
 
2) An offer he couldn't refuse.  Cerberus told Shepard truthfully or not, that they have something that can help against the Reapers.  Shepard, in his zeal to protect the galaxy, made a Faustian bargain with the Illusive Man for his aid.

3) Obligation.  Cerberus is holding something over Shepard's head to gain his help.  Perhaps a control chip, perhaps an explosive device or a killswitch in his cybernetics. Maybe they have hostages.  At any rate, SHepard is letting the needs of the few, or the one, outweigh the needs of the many.

I am not saying that Ash would wholeheartedly believe any of these possibilities.  I am saying that these are scenerios that could be going through Ash's head.  And tehy may give her doubts.  Ash doesn't like doubts.  She likes certainty. "It's hard to be a patriot and p*ssed at the government.  Who am I supposed to vote for?"

Further, in order to do so Shepard would have had to fake his own death. That means that Shepard would also have had a hand in the destruction of the SR1 and the deaths of his first officer and 20 crewmen, making Shepard a mass murderer in addition to a traitor to the Alliance and Earth. I would say that Williams does not go down this road in my estimation.

Do you think Cerberus would be above planting some fake evidence implicating Shepard i that.  Her heart may say there's no way this could happen, but if there was evidence pointing at it, I could see it tearing her up inside.  Simmering for two years before Shepard shows up, with Cerberus, on a planet that intel said Cerberus was going to hit.  Even if Shep is shooting at the bug-eyed aliens, that's still two rumors confirmed (SHepard alive, Shepard working with Cerberus) What else could be true?
 

She would have dismissed these rumors and any Intel concerning Shepard and his illicit ties as nothing more than hogwash because she knew better. She knew the man that she loved. She knew his history and his values and she also knew that he has always done his best in order to save as many lives as he could. Therefore, rumors and intel would not have caused Williams to have believed that Shepard had betrayed the trust that the Alliance and the Citadel Council had placed in him nor would it have caused her to believe that he had abandoned her.

mMaybe she doesn't believe Shepard is really a traitor.  Maybe what she has is even more insidious:  Doubt.  Isn't there an X-Files line "A lie is best hidden between two truths"?  It's impossible that Shepard is alive.  But he is.  It's preposterous that he would work with Cerberus.  Yet he is.  What else has she heard that's impossible, or preposterous?  What is true anymore?
 

Further, she has the following facts to take into consideration regarding Horizon:
 
1. For a brief period of time, she thought the colony lost because there were no sounds of resistance. Then, she hears small arms fire that gives her reason to hope.
 
2. She hears the colony's defenses begin to fire and she realizes that the enemy ship has come under attack. This means that the resistance has escalated.
 
3. The enemy ship retreats with smoke streaming out of its hull.
 
4. Ashley views dozens of enemy corpses as a result of the successful defense of Horizon.
 
5. She knows who is to thank for the defense of the colony because she hears Shepard first, then sees him.
 
When she asks Shepard why he never opened his mouth in the past two years to her, he replies that he had no choice in the matter. That he was in a coma as Cerberus reconstructed him. That's when the anger comes flooding back as she backs away from his as if he were toxic. From that point, Williams isn't interested in anything that Shepard has to say from that point forward.

All true.  When work of Cerberus got out, Ash couldn't take anything she saw or heard for granted anymore.  Depending on what the rumors are about Shepard out there, what allegations have been made, it's understandable that she might be angry.  See above for reasons.  For all she knows this whole situation could have been an elaborate setup for her benefit.  Something to be done to give Cerberus some good PR, Or to throw the Alliance off the scent, as Cerberus is a suspect for the missing colonies.  Like I said, what's true anymore?

But the good news is, Ash's investigation proved that wasn't the case.
 

She doesn't ask anymore questions, she just makes accusations. She accuses Shepard of treason, says that he betrayed her, calls his intelligence into question and departs. At this point, it is clear that Williams no longer trusts Shepard and because of that, Shepard can no longer trust Williams. She never asked him why he was on Horizon. She never asked him why he was working with Cerberus. She never asked him if he trusted Cerberus. She never asked him if he still had any feelings for her. She just slams the door in his face.

See above.  Does Ash distrust Shepard, or does she doubt?  She does say "I'd like to believe you, but I don't trust Cerberus. And it bothers me that you do.  What did they do to you?"  I could ask the same of Ash, what did they do to her?  What did they do to the memory of Shepard?

The lack of questions is a sore point, of course.  We know that she did perform an investigation afterwards.  But her lack of inquisitiveness at this point does bother me.  As does Shepard's lack of helpfulness in his answers.

 
Apparently such behavior is enough to obtain a cheering section because Ashley does have her defenders. But ultimately what is lost her is the trust that once existed between Shepard and Williams. I have pointed out that the lack of this trust makes Williams a wild card. This is because it is trust that acts as a social lubricant that allows people to expect something familiar. When that trust is gone, uncertainly rules and people have no idea what to expect.

I am as big an Ash fan as anyone, and I don't think she should get a free pass for Horizon.  For that matter, neither should Shepard, given the writing quality.  But my suspicion is that Ash didn't lose her trust in Shepard, it was taken from her. It was actively sabotaged, most likely by Cerberus.  Depending on what was said and done, I don't think I could blame her for harboring doubts
 
 

That is why I say that she has to come up with a credible and convincing reason that I can still trust her. Otherwise, stick a fork in her because she's done and I am booting her behind off of the Normandy at the earliest opportunity because she has made herself into a problem and I don't have the time to solve it.

Sadly I have none to give.  Only ideas and the occasional hypothosis.  But I think there is still a few chapters left in Ash's book to read before we can judge her story.  I truly wish we had a chance to read them in ME2 or at least in some DLC.  Ash's behavior was out of character under normal circumstances.  SO we have to ask, what circumstances would make that normal?

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Heh. I can picture my Shepard politly asking Ash/Kaidan to "garner the support of the other races" pushing a notepad in her/his hand and booting her/him off the ship while fistpumping the moment s/he's gone.

[knightnblu]

alperez - "If someone wrongs you or you perceive they've wronged you, do you just completely ignore why they did so and wait for them to apologise for the perceived affront, are you completely right all of the time?"
 
Tell me how you deal with betrayal and I will gladly answer that question. Further, you always accuse me of being wrong, but never to seem to articulate the particulars. I have cited the reasons WHY Ashley was wrong. I have no objections whatsoever to hearing from you why she was right. However, all I seem to get are nebulous assertions based on...what?
 
I don't do that. If someone were to ask me a question about why I believed something I can articulate the reasoning behind my beliefs. Examine my earlier post and you will see WHY I don't believe for a second that Williams bought the rumors or intel about Shepard and delineated why that was so.
 
I get that you are a kind and compassionate person. I get that you are fair minded and judicious in your appraisals, but I see it differently. You see shades of gray and I see black and white. In fact, I am a little surprised at the level of dissatisfaction with my posts because in a sense, I am very much like Ashley in how I view the world and her actions. I suppose that such a thing has far greater appeal if one is female and in a video game.
 
"For most people the answer to that would be a resounding no, they would try to figure out why what happened, happened, they would put themselves in the other person's shoes and try to understand why they acted how they did."
 
I did and to tell the truth, so did you. It is just that we arrived at differing conclusions. I am old school and I still believe in the warrior's way. I expect those in service to be the same. I will not bore you with the necessities of such a life. Suffice to say that is the light that I view Williams in and more importantly, how BioWare portrayed her.
 
Accordingly, that is the way that I treat her. Not like some simpering school girl, but as an equal to myself in every sense of the word. If girlfriend can't hang, that isn't my problem. Shepard has bigger fish to fry and that is the point that Laecraft was trying to make. The galaxy will be burning in ME3. We have seen the trailers.
 
That means that we cannot ****foot around any more. We don't have the time. Every moment that passes brings the human race closer to becoming slaves via indoctrination. Worse, we have a fractured galaxy to heal and forces to gather and a counterattack to plan on a massive scale. Where is there time to repair the relationship? There isn't any.
 
I am not going to have time to hold Ashley's hand and nurse her through her breakdown. I need competent soldiers who will follow my order without question even if it means their lives to do so. The truth of the matter is that I don't need Ashley to insure that I meet my operational objectives. That means I don't need her problems. So I get rid of her. It is the easiest and simplest solution.
 
Or do you suggest that I place the galaxy on hold while worlds burn?
 
"Rather than allow any understanding of these factors, you instead bring up elements unknown to Ash and try to portray these as key factors which again proves my point about your posts, your viewpoint is so skewed from Shepard's perspective that you can't see any other."
 
Really? Such as? As far as I am aware, everything that I say Ashley should know, I can prove that it is the case with canon evidence. Where's yours? Because it seems to me that most of the criticism leveled at me is based on opinion, not fact. If you have facts, I would love to hear them.
 
 
"We know certain facts regarding events that Ash does not, since Ash doesn't have that info then these facts are irrelevant to why she acts how she does, yet instead of understanding that you give these facts supreme weight while completely dismissing others that actually do carry weight."
 
Like...? Again, you come at me with an accusation, say that it is grounded in fact, but seem unable to produce any of these facts. While I respect your opinions, I truly do, I would prefer facts in support of them.
 
 
"I disagree both with the conclussion you make and with the method you use to come to that conclussion."
 
That is like saying that you disagree that the sky is blue and the method used to determine its color. If you disagree because of the facts, then present them and prove me wrong. I am willing to admit when I am so defeated and I learn from my failures in logic. But if you seek to persuade based solely upon an emotional argument, you shall fail.

[ddv.rsa]

knightnblu wrote...
 
Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.
 

That depends on the Shepard in question. Your particular Shepard seems to be the ultimate paragon, but some are the exact opposite.

[knightnblu]

iakus - Yeah, I have to admit that a renegade Shep blows my arguments to hell. Fortunately, I am paragon. ;-)
 
 
"There are a few, less obvious possibilities:

1) Shepard was always a Cerberus agent. Even before Eden Prime. His entire attitude before was an elaborate con. Everything Shepard did was a lie to increase Cerberus influence among the Alliance and the Council.

2) An offer he couldn't refuse. Cerberus told Shepard truthfully or not, that they have something that can help against the Reapers. Shepard, in his zeal to protect the galaxy, made a Faustian bargain with the Illusive Man for his aid.

3) Obligation. Cerberus is holding something over Shepard's head to gain his help. Perhaps a control chip, perhaps an explosive device or a killswitch in his cybernetics. Maybe they have hostages. At any rate, SHepard is letting the needs of the few, or the one, outweigh the needs of the many.""
 
As for 1, that is very doubtful because of the thorough screening he would have had while being sized up as a Spectre candidate. I don't think that would have gotten passed Anderson or Admiral Hackett without raising a couple of red flags. I doubt that his cover would have been blown, but I would think that it would have been enough to prevent him from being considered.
 
As for 2, possibly, but it is well known that Faustian bargains come with some serious strings and when the strings are pulled, it usually doesn't work out too well for the bargainer.
 
As for 3, that is way outside of Shepard's character. Of the three, I suspect 2 is the likeliest possibility, but the payoff would have to be huge. But it would still be improbable.
 
"Do you think Cerberus would be above planting some fake evidence implicating Shepard i that. Her heart may say there's no way this could happen, but if there was evidence pointing at it, I could see it tearing her up inside. Simmering for two years before Shepard shows up, with Cerberus, on a planet that intel said Cerberus was going to hit. Even if Shep is shooting at the bug-eyed aliens, that's still two rumors confirmed (SHepard alive, Shepard working with Cerberus) What else could be true?"
 
 
I wouldn't put anything past Cerberus. However, TIM needs Shepard to be able to move around. By forging evidence that links Shepard with the destruction of the SR1, the Alliance would snatch him and Anderson's and Hackett's hands would be tied. That is the only reason that I find such a thing unlikely. Not because TIM is above it, but because he needs Shepard to be able to move around freely.
Thus we see TIM playing a very careful and well orchestrated game. Placing enough doubt out there to cut Shepard off from his friends and allies, but not so much that he is hauled in and arrested. A very delicate balancing act.
 
 
"mMaybe she doesn't believe Shepard is really a traitor. Maybe what she has is even more insidious: Doubt. Isn't there an X-Files line "A lie is best hidden between two truths"? It's impossible that Shepard is alive. But he is. It's preposterous that he would work with Cerberus. Yet he is. What else has she heard that's impossible, or preposterous? What is true anymore?"
 
 
That's why I wrote my previous post about trust. In a world where you cannot identify friend from foe, trust becomes a precious commodity. Once given is such a world, if it is lost it is nearly impossible to restore. You have got Alliance Intel, the STG, Cerberus,
Shadow Broker, and God knows who else muddying the waters. How do you know that you can trust anyone?
 
I will go you one better. A lie, when you know it is a lie, can be just as revealing as the truth. All you need to do is to find the lie. Good luck with that!
 
 
"All true. When work of Cerberus got out, Ash couldn't take anything she saw or heard for granted anymore. Depending on what the rumors are about Shepard out there, what allegations have been made, it's understandable that she might be angry. See above for reasons. For all she knows this whole situation could have been an elaborate setup for her benefit. Something to be done to give Cerberus some good PR, Or to throw the Alliance off the scent, as Cerberus is a suspect for the missing colonies. Like I said, what's true anymore?"
 
That's why I keep harping on faith. Williams should have had faith in the man that she claims to have loved. Don't think that I didn't catch the tense of the word that she used either. Past tense, meaning that once, but not now. Toss in her irate and nonsensical behavior and utter failure to listen to Shepard and I don't trust her as far as I could throw Horizon.
 
Once you have found someone you can trust in such an environment, you have got to know that everybody will assail it. That is why faith is of paramount importance. Faith will provide the best shield from the many attacks that are designed to implant doubt. Not only did Ash fail to have faith in Shepard, she went one step further and treated him in the same manner that her grandfather was treated after Shanxi betraying her family and herself at the same time. While a bitter irony, it is terribly sad.
 
 
"See above. Does Ash distrust Shepard, or does she doubt? She does say "I'd like to believe you, but I don't trust Cerberus. And it bothers me that you do. What did they do to you?" I could ask the same of Ash, what did they do to her? What did they do to the memory of Shepard?"
 
 
That isn't why I say that Ash no longer trusts Shepard. I have two reasons for making that assertion. First, she steadfastly refuses to hear Shepard as soon as the word "Cerberus" emerged from his vocal cords. Secondly, when Ash turns to leave, she informs Shepard that she will tell his "story" to the brass and see if they believe it. That is the clearest indication that she no longer trusts Shepard.
 
Shepard doesn't relay a report, he relays a "story." When we we're small we were told fairytales and other such "stories" and this is the context from which Williams uses that word. Even in law enforcement, the word "story" implies that it is a tale not to be believed as the truth. If Ashley has arrived at the point where Shepard is telling stories, it is the clearest evidence that she no longer considers him trustworthy.
 
 
"I am as big an Ash fan as anyone, and I don't think she should get a free pass for Horizon. For that matter, neither should Shepard, given the writing quality. But my suspicion is that Ash didn't lose her trust in Shepard, it was taken from her. It was actively sabotaged, most likely by Cerberus. Depending on what was said and done, I don't think I could blame her for harboring doubts"
 
 
Truth be told, I like her as well. She was one of my favorite characters in the ME universe. Where you blame the writers, I blame the end product. She is who she is written to be good or bad. While I shall certainly not blame you for your faith in Williams, I only wish that I could share it.
 
As for doubts, I certainly would not have blamed her for those. God knows that there is enough room for doubts surrounding Shepard's sudden appearance, his involvement with Cerberus, and those bloody rumors. No, I would not fault her at all for having doubts. I only fault her for failing to believe and to trust what she knew was right in her heart. That was what led to her abandonment of Shepard and the breach of trust between them. Many are forgiving of that and God bless them for it. On the other hand, I am not so forgiving. Stuck in my ways I guess.
 
Meantime the galaxy is burning, Earth is under siege, I have allies to gather, and a counterattack to plan and coordinate. I don't have time to hold Ashley's hand and baby her through the mess that she created. I need soldiers who can create rivers of blood beneath their feet and people that I can trust. While Williams certainly fits the first part, she totally screwed the pooch on the second part.

[knightnblu]

ddv.rsa wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.
 

That depends on the Shepard in question. Your particular Shepard seems to be the ultimate paragon, but some are the exact opposite.

Admittedly true.

[YouthCultureForever]

[quote]knightnblu wrote...
This is because Williams should have known better. While it is true that rumors were flying all over the galaxy, Williams was the one person who knew the truth. That Shepard was not some sort of a monster. She knew that he was principled and operated with honor and with traditional human ethics despite being above the law as a Council Spectre.[/quote]
I've argued she never believed the Shepard/Cerberus rumor in earlier posts.
 
[quote]Second, Shepard was the one who took out the Cerberus facilities in the past. Why would he do a 180 and work for them now? It couldn't have been for money, Shepard never seemed all that obsessed with cash. It couldn't have been for power, he was a Council Spectre and therefore above the law. That is an elite and prestigious position in the galaxy and the perks are obvious. Was it for sex? No, he had a strong and growing relationship with Ashley that serviced that need and he didn't display any deviant behavior in that regard. Couldn't have been for politics because he set Saracino strait on the Citadel. Couldn't have been because he hated aliens, because he recruited them into his crew.
Ultimately, there is no reason for Shepard to do a 180 and work for Cerberus.[/quote]
There is a confounding variable in this situation. Shepard is being manipulated. It's a reasonable inference.


[quote]When she hears Shepard's voice, she knows that he is alive. She also knows that two years have passed and she has not heard word one from him and that pisses her off to no end. She swallows her anger and then goes out to greet Shepard. She asks him how he could have put her through the nightmare of his death. At that point, we know what is driving Ashley is personal and had nothing to do with rumor or Intel.[/quote]
This is a very liberal interpretation of the scene. I wasn't aware Ashley was such a talented actress.

This isn't about retribution. It isn't her intent to crucify Shepard for personal statisfaction. She doesn't.[/quote][/quote]
[quote]When she asks Shepard why he never opened his mouth in the past two years to her, he replies that he had no choice in the matter. That he was in a coma as Cerberus reconstructed him. That's when the anger comes flooding back as she backs away from his as if he were toxic. From that point, Williams isn't interested in anything that Shepard has to say from that point forward.[/quote]
What function do you believe the VS serves on Horizon?
[/quote]

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 02:15 .