1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

knightnblu wrote...

Let's try to approach the events on Horizon from a perspective of trust. Regardless of how you view Ashley's morality on Horizon,  some ding her for abandoning and betraying Shepard and others hold an opposing view, it seems to me that trust is the crux of the matter. Why is this so?
 
*edited snip to shorten quote*
 
That is why I say that she has to come up with a credible and convincing reason that I can still trust her. Otherwise, stick a fork in her because she's done and I am booting her behind off of the Normandy at the earliest opportunity because she has made herself into a problem and I don't have the time to solve it.

I think you're pretty much spot-on. I've discussed this before, added a few dimensions with regards to her mission to the planet - that her emotional temper-tantrum also cost her good intel - I mean she WAS there to find out what Shep was doing and she really didn't spend much time finding out what Shep was doing. So how much story is she going to take to Anderson?

Anyway, there will be some time in the quiet moments of the war to talk to Ash and work things out if possible. I'm not ready to totally throw her under the bus yet.

[alperez]

Knight

I had intended to not post further on this but since you ask some questions i'll answer them.

1. Dealing with betrayal.

Firstly i deal with it pretty much the same as anyone else, but only when that betrayal is without merit or when i myself have not played a part in the reasoning why i've been betrayed.

I've explained the reasons why Ash acts how she acts, rather than accept those reason you disagree with them first and now suggest i've not offered reasons why this is the case.

You refuse to accept someone feeling they've been abandoned for 2 years by the person that supposedly loved them, someone who during those 2 years never tried to contact them or find out how they are as a reason why someone would feel betrayed.

You ask me to provide evidence for how i came to my interpretation of these facts, the evidence is there in  the words Ash herself uses.

She doesn't ask if Shepard's been dead for 2 years, if he's just been resurrected and that's the reason why he's only now coming to see her. Instead she says "she spent the past 2 years believing he was dead, that she loves him, that she thought he was dead, how could he put her through that, why didn't he let her know that he was alive, why didn't he contact her".

Her own words show that she believes now that Shepard has been alive all this time, that she believes during this time he let her go through believing he was dead and that he didn't care enough about her to contact her and let her know different.

I've said continually state of mind is all important, emotional state is all important and its clear that Ash's state of mind her emotional reaction to shepard's return, show that she believes shepard has already betrayed their relationship.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge this and say i've shown no proof of what i say.

2. Warriors way.

Firstly i'm a serving military man, i know all about the codes of ethics and the bond that service brings with it.

But what you say here completely disregards the personal nature of the relationship between Shepard and Ash and instead concentrates entirely on the proffessional one.

Personal relationships bring their own stresses to any encounter, for most people its the personal relationship that defines them or how they are perceived.
To ignore that personal relationship or downgrade its importance as i believe you do here is to completely misunderstand how people function.

Ask the most devoted military man to choose between his country and his family and if they are honest they will choose family every time, is that disloyalty or human nature?

I've led men into difficult situations, to do that i've needed the trust of those men, that trust is earned and once lost needs to be re-earned. If for example i was having an affair with the wife of one of the men in my unit and that man found out, would the fact i may have saved that mans life previously mean i haven't lost his trust?

I gurantee the answer to that is a resounding no, its not just what i've done in the past that gains me that trust but its how i'm perceived to be in the present also.

I've suggested that because of how Ash has perceived Shepards actions during the time spent apart (perceived actions not actual ones) and because of what those actions mean in relation to both personal and proffessional trust that Ash while technically being wrong in how she acts, has justifiable reasoning why she acts that way.

You refuse to accept how Shepard's actions could be perceived as wrong because you know they are not, but cant seem to grasp the concept of why Ash does not.

You expect Ash to act like a robot, ignore whatever emotional turmoil she may be going through, dismiss all evidence other than Shepard's idiotic responses and basically man up.

Which to me shows such a basic lack of normal human responses that i begin to wonder if you live in a bubble where emotions don't exist and everyone is aware completely of motivations based not on any evidence they have of them but a knowledge of how a person once was.

The problem with Horizon from Ash's perspective (a perspective you continually ignore) is that Shepard's perceived actions during the past 2 years, the info Ash has regarding those actions and the facts of Shepards working with cerberus allied to Shepard's own responses, force her to question not just the Shepard in front of her but the Shepard she thought she knew.

Once she's reached that point, she can no longer trust what Shepard says or her own memory of who Shepard is, simply because the emotional bond has been severely damaged and the info in her possession doesn't fit with Shepard's explanations. She's then faced with the key question, if Shepard was not who she thought he was, if he did not stand for the same things she believed he does, can she trust that the man in front of her really can be trusted.

I've explained why emotionally Ash perceives Shepard as having betrayed her and the relationship they had, but rather than accept that you suggest she should ignore the emotions and behave like a robot.

To paraphrase "I'm not going to hold her hand and nurse her through her emotional breakdown, i need competent soldiers that will follow my orders without question"

That proves how little you comphrend the relationship between Ash and Shepard, rather than acknowledge the personal nature of it, you expect Ash to act like a non thinking grunt, to blindly follow without question someone who's very existence should raise significant ones.

Horizon as i've said takes place with complicated factors involved, Shepard being alive and working with cerberus alone should raise significant questions, when the personal relationship between the 2 parties is also added these questions and how they're answered become even more complex.

If the most heroic soldier in america died in action then rumours spread that he was alive and working with al qaeda, if after a 2 year absence he suddenly reappeared and explained he'd died and been in a coma for 2 years and that the reason he was working with Al qaeda was because they were the only ones doing something about a major event, would his fellow soldiers just unquestionably follow him because they knew him 2 years ago?

Or would they wonder if he was being duped or had been brainwashed and had completely abandoned his principles and the things he stood for?

The answer to the first question would be not a chance in hell, yet you expect Ash to basically do just that, you expect her to accept Shepard's inane explanations because she knew him 2 years ago and knew what he stood for then.

When you on top of that add in what to Ash is a personal betrayal of the relationship they shared, then how else would a normal person act.

3. Bringing things up that are irrelevant.

The events that shepard has gone through, his reasoning for not contacting Ash, the justification for working with cerberus, his actions on Horizon in saving the colony, none of these are actually relevant in how Ash perceives Shepard and his actions.

Simply put Ash has only Shepards responses, his working with cerberus and the rumours that have been spread about him to go on.

In terms of his death and ressurrection, her questions and statements at the beginning of the encounter clearly show she believes he didn't die, that he only let her believe he was dead.

She believes he didn't try to contact her, let her go through the past 2 years believeing he was dead for some reason and is now and has been for some time working with cerberus.

Not knowing the details about Lazurus make Shepard's death appear to have been a hoax, which then gives rise to why was that hoax perpetrated.

Shepard brings up being in a coma and cerberus having rebuilt him in order to allay those concerns, the problem here is twofold, knowing nothing about the lazurus project why would anyone believe someone can be rebuilt? If you can't believe that why believe Shepard was in a coma?

Like i said because of the info Ash has, shepards return seems to have been not as a result of Liara finding his body and giving it to cerberus who for the past 2 years have rebuilt him but rather the culmination of an operation where Shepard has pretended to be dead for 2 years and has been working with cerberus for all that time.

She closes down completely at the mention of cerberus at this point because knowing who they are and what they stand for and knowing that Shepard has been working with them for some time, anything Shepard says cannot be taken without that context.

The problem is offcourse we know she's mistaken, we have info she does not, so we know her perception is wrong, Ash not having that info doesn't have the same luxury and is instead tied into that perception.

People wonder why she doesn't ask more questions about Shepard at that point, why she didn't press for details, to me its simple, why would she, if she already believes what i claim she does she wouldn't ask because the mere mention of cerberus has raised another issue.

4. Disagreeing.

You say my disagreement with how you conclude how you do is akin to disagreeing that the sky is blue, that rather than offer facts to show why i disagree i instead concentrate on the emotional argument.

I believe i've offered facts as to why Ash behaves as she does, the problem is that the encounter on Horizon is an emotional one and emotions play a large part in why things happen as they do.

To me you concentrate and analyse Horizon unemotionally, you cannot see why emotion plays such a key part in the reasoning behind why the encouner goes so badly wrong.

Instead you add up the facts that you as Shepard know, Dismiss the facts that Ash knows as irrelevant and expect a non emotional rational examination of the facts to prove your point.

You expect Ash to completely ignore her emotions, dismiss the evidence she has and the situation thats in front of her, revert to a non emotional robot and rather than question the situation and Shepard, accept everything as if time passed has no meaning and without question accept Shepard because she knew him before.

The situation's changed, time has passed, Shepards death and ressurrection, his working with cerberus should force serious questions to be asked, when thats added in to the emotional aspect of someone believing that they've been personally betrayed as i believe Ash perceives herself then Horizon becomes more complex than simply a trust and loyalty exercise.

Ash's perspective is informed by not just the info she has but her emotional state, an emotional state clearly shown in the opening moments on horizon.

She believes shepard for 2 years has been alive, that he didn't try to contact her or even care what she went through and that during those 2 years he's been working with cerberus.

I've shown i believe why this is the case and why then in the same situation the trust you want her to give Shepard is a step most people would not take at that point, rather than accept this you instead portray the encounter as one where emotion should play no part, where info Ash is not aware of should have bearing and one where questions need not be answered.

Perhaps you stoic and can handle your emotions better than the vast majority of people, perhaps you in the same situation could dismiss feeling that the person in front of you has betrayed your relationship, could dismiss that the person in front of you has serious questions to answer and instead offers inane respones to those questions, perhaps you could put aside your own loyalty to the people you serve because you knew what that person once stood for, perhaps you could ignore that it appears they no longer or perhaps never felt the same about you or believed in the things you thought they did.

If it was me i could not, for the very same reasons i've explained why i believe Ash doesn't.

Modifié par alperez, 28 septembre 2011 - 03:01 .

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

iakus - Yeah, I have to admit that a renegade Shep blows my arguments to hell. Fortunately, I am paragon. ;-)
 

As am I :innocent:  But I believe that the one-size-fits-all dialogue is a weakness of the writing, not the character.  IF there was a paragon-based dialogue where Ash was more stunned than enraged, this thread may not exist.

 
As for 1, that is very doubtful because of the thorough screening he would have had while being sized up as a Spectre candidate. I don't think that would have gotten passed Anderson or Admiral Hackett without raising a couple of red flags. I doubt that his cover would have been blown, but I would think that it would have been enough to prevent him from being considered.

Cerberus existed within the Alliance for over twenty years with hardly anyone knowing they existed, and have exerted a tremendous amount of influence in that time (see Shadow Broker dossiers).  It wasn't until the events of ME1 that Cerberus went rogue.  The possibility that Shepard was Cerberus/Cerberus sympathizer may not be as far-fetched as you think.  At least as fodder for a whisper campaign.

Shepard's trial may prove to be very interesting, and not just for the events of Arrival.
 

As for 2, possibly, but it is well known that Faustian bargains come with some serious strings and when the strings are pulled, it usually doesn't work out too well for the bargainer.

And there are always fools who think they can get around the consequences, or that the price will be worth it.
 

As for 3, that is way outside of Shepard's character.

Actually I would think #3 would be a liklihood for paragon Sheps.  The Sheps that let Balak escape to rescue the hostages,  The ones that rewrite rather than destroy the geth, Who rescue refinery workers rather than take out the head of the Blue Suns.  
 
 

I wouldn't put anything past Cerberus. However, TIM needs Shepard to be able to move around. By forging evidence that links Shepard with the destruction of the SR1, the Alliance would snatch him and Anderson's and Hackett's hands would be tied. That is the only reason that I find such a thing unlikely. Not because TIM is above it, but because he needs Shepard to be able to move around freely.
Thus we see TIM playing a very careful and well orchestrated game. Placing enough doubt out there to cut Shepard off from his friends and allies, but not so much that he is hauled in and arrested. A very delicate balancing act.

It would have to be a careful balancing act.  But I think the Illusive Man is up to the task.  
 
 

That's why I wrote my previous post about trust. In a world where you cannot identify friend from foe, trust becomes a precious commodity. Once given is such a world, if it is lost it is nearly impossible to restore. You have got Alliance Intel, the STG, Cerberus,
Shadow Broker, and God knows who else muddying the waters. How do you know that you can trust anyone?
 
I will go you one better. A lie, when you know it is a lie, can be just as revealing as the truth. All you need to do is to find the lie. Good luck with that!

But the lie wasn't that Shepard was alive.  The lie wasn't that Shepard was working with Cerberus.  If these two impossibilities (and the death, at least, was an impossibility, based on everything Ash knew) turned out to be accurate, could you really blame Ash for wondering if other rumors might be true as well?  You ask if Shepard can trust Ash.  But as of Horizon, could Ash trust Shepard?  The words used were harsh, too harsh for a paragon Shep.  
 
 

That's why I keep harping on faith. Williams should have had faith in the man that she claims to have loved. Don't think that I didn't catch the tense of the word that she used either. Past tense, meaning that once, but not now. Toss in her irate and nonsensical behavior and utter failure to listen to Shepard and I don't trust her as far as I could throw Horizon.
 
Once you have found someone you can trust in such an environment, you have got to know that everybody will assail it. That is why faith is of paramount importance. Faith will provide the best shield from the many attacks that are designed to implant doubt. Not only did Ash fail to have faith in Shepard, she went one step further and treated him in the same manner that her grandfather was treated after Shanxi betraying her family and herself at the same time. While a bitter irony, it is terribly sad.

But we have no idea how much Ash's faith in Shep was tested.  It would have to be something big, yes, Ash commited mutiny with Shepard, which shows how much she believed in him before.  But until we know for certain, I think it's premature to write her off.  DOing so now would be no better than what Ash did on Horizon.
 

That isn't why I say that Ash no longer trusts Shepard. I have two reasons for making that assertion. First, she steadfastly refuses to hear Shepard as soon as the word "Cerberus" emerged from his vocal cords. Secondly, when Ash turns to leave, she informs Shepard that she will tell his "story" to the brass and see if they believe it. That is the clearest indication that she no longer trusts Shepard.

I agree that Ash should have listened to Shepard after Cerberus was mentioned.  By the same token I believe Shepard should have explained better.

And while Ash did use the word "story"  It becomes clear when speaking to Anderson that Ash verified Shep's "story" as true.  This speaks well of her character, since even after her words to Shepard, she still backs him up in her report.  She could have written anything, slanted it any way she liked.  There was no one to say otherwise. 

Even in the apology, tepid as it was, she says:

I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon.  I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can.  I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.

She believes in the Collectors, she believes in Shepard.  Well, she does if you romanced her, anyway 

Shepard doesn't relay a report, he relays a "story." When we we're small we were told fairytales and other such "stories" and this is the context from which Williams uses that word. Even in law enforcement, the word "story" implies that it is a tale not to be believed as the truth. If Ashley has arrived at the point where Shepard is telling stories, it is the clearest evidence that she no longer considers him trustworthy.

Another old saying:  "Trust everyone, but cut the cards"  Ash was no longer certain of Shep, and independantly verified what he told her.  Given even Anderson wasn't sure of him anymore, that's not an unreasonable course of action.  Until she can verify that Shepard is relaying accurate intel, it is in fact, a "story"  IT just so happens it's a true one.
 
 

Truth be told, I like her as well. She was one of my favorite characters in the ME universe. Where you blame the writers, I blame the end product. She is who she is written to be good or bad. While I shall certainly not blame you for your faith in Williams, I only wish that I could share it.
 
As for doubts, I certainly would not have blamed her for those. God knows that there is enough room for doubts surrounding Shepard's sudden appearance, his involvement with Cerberus, and those bloody rumors. No, I would not fault her at all for having doubts. I only fault her for failing to believe and to trust what she knew was right in her heart. That was what led to her abandonment of Shepard and the breach of trust between them. Many are forgiving of that and God bless them for it. On the other hand, I am not so forgiving. Stuck in my ways I guess.
 
Meantime the galaxy is burning, Earth is under siege, I have allies to gather, and a counterattack to plan and coordinate. I don't have time to hold Ashley's hand and baby her through the mess that she created. I need soldiers who can create rivers of blood beneath their feet and people that I can trust. While Williams certainly fits the first part, she totally screwed the pooch on the second part.

i blame the writing because it does not take past actions into account.  The conversaton is for everyone.  Paragon, renegade, doesn't matter.  Even romancing her only leads to a few line changes.  And I believe I've heard that "paragoning" her at the end of ME 1 isn't even an imported choice.  Given the default, nonimported game appears to assume a stone-cold renegade who crushed everyone beneath their boot in ME1, I'm thinking the conversation leans towards that kind of Shepard, with no real allowances made for any other playstyle.  Thus I'm not going to blame Ash for having a conversation with someone else's Shep.

And even so, I do not see what Ash did as abandonment.  Even if she implicitly believed everything Shepard told her (which would have been foolish in itself) she is still active duty Alliance, with all the responsibilities that go with it.  She could not go with Shepard (and Shep was an idiot for even asking, almost as bad as making the offer to Anderson).  She was obligated to report back to Anderson.  Heck she was pretty much obligated to disapprove of Cerberus, due to who they are and their past activities.  No, the only thing she was guilty of was an overly harsh rebuke.  

In ME3 I intend to use any and all conversation options to find out what has been going on in the Alliance for the last two years.  I want to know why she reacted so strongly, assuming that was not a writing error.  In addition, my Shepard will spill his guts about everything he did while working with Cerberus.  The air will be cleared, and it is only then that I will decide if the situation is salvageable.  

Hopefully this time the game will tell the difference between a paragon and renegade Shepard.

[NugatRevolution]

Nope. Her general b*tchiness on horizon kinda ended it.

[Made Nightwing]

laecraft wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Perhaps I should rephrase that? Is Shepard an experienced and hardened combat leader, or a wannabe emo hanging out at the mall? Good Lord, if I had refused to have a cadet in my section back when I was a Cadet Corporal, just because he said mean things to me, or in some way betrayed my trust, then my Warrant Officer would have slapped me silly, taken away my stripes and given them to someone else who could do the damn job without their feelings getting in the way. It's not the renegade, badass way. Sucking it up, moving on and starting fresh is the only realistic way to handle a situation like that.

VS created some emotional turmoil for my Shepard. He got over it, got himself together, moved on, and got back to fight.

He does NOT need to deal with all that crap all over again. He doesn't need old wounds reopened. He doesn't need those words about him being a traitor refreshed just as he's from the trial.

What, exactly, is so priceless about VS that Shepard needs to spend his own emotional reserves on accommodating her? Why not simply get rid of VS? It's a much faster and easier way to deal with the situation, and it doesn't endanger Shepard, who is only human.

You think Ashley isn't going to give Shepard an evil eye for blowing up a batarian system? You think she's going to be okay with that, if she turned her back on him before he did anything remotedly questionable - in fact, after he saved a colony before her very eyes? Think she's not going to throw accusations at him again? And that's after he'd just been judged by the Alliance - and possibly condemned? Think that her presence wouldn't create an potentially dangerous emotional situation?

If she's gone, it's done and over with. If she's constantly present, she's a constant source of emotional danger. She proved herself unreliable once. She can't be trusted again. And it's harder to put behind your ex when she's always before your eyes.

See, Shepard's not a soldier anymore. He's not in army. He's not simply a unit whose job to do what he's told, and suck it up, and just follow orders, and who can be easily replaced if he causes even the slighest bother, and nobody cares how he feels as long as he goes through the paces required of him.

The fate of the entire galaxy depends on Shepard's mental focus, on his emotional stability, on his sharpness, on his ability to properly assess the situation, on his ability to make right decisions on the battlefield at the right time in a fraction of a second. If he gets killed, the galaxy follows. If I can create for him a surroundings as comfortable as possible, and get rid of all the unpleasant distractions, I will.

Besides, Shepard doesn't have a Warrant Officer...he's the one in charge of decisions on his ship. His opinion is the one that matters. He decides who stays, and who goes. One of the perks of all that huge responsibility.

I don't think many of you truly realize what Shepard has been put through. Try to imagine the stress, and the hugeness of demands on his mental and emotional reserves. The stakes are IMMENSE.

He was dead, he came back to life, he was shunned by the entire galaxy, he got labeled and condemned, his former associate calls him a traitor and walks out, he saved humanity when everyone else abandoned them, then he had to blow up an entire system to save the galaxy again, then he got denounced by the Council for it, renounced by the Alliance - which is a lie, the Alliance was involved, then he got brought to the Earth to trial in irons, and now he's possibly facing execution to appease the species who (possibly) murdered his family and friends and nearly murdered him and who nearly destroyed the biggest human colony in space, and then he watched the Earth burn and could do nothing, and the he had to FLEE and leave humanity behind, and he hasn't the slightest idea how to save his own people and the entire galaxy, because the enemy is just too strong, and the enitre galaxy is falling apart in front of him, and things seem hopeless, and he feels completely helpless, but he must do something, and he must concentrate, and he must fight.

AND YOU'RE TELLING HIM TO SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH IT?

If I can give him a bath of rose petals every evening and provide him with the beautiful companions, I will do it. And if there's a single easily replaceable soldier on his crew who shows even the slightest disapproval of him and who can even potentially distress him and cause his concentration slip, I will get rid of them in an instant. Oh, and if I must sing Shepard a lullaby every night to make sure he sleeps without nightmares, I'll do it too. Everything to make sure he stays peaceful and calm.

The whole freaking galaxy is at stake! Don't you see how very wrong it is to risk even the slighest emotional turmoil to the only person who can save us all? You never saw hardened men survive the impossible fights and then fall apart because their beloved turned on them? A word kills more surely than a bullet does.

In fact, I'll do just about everything to keep Shepard happy and content in his little haven. He needs to draw strength from somewhere. He needs a place to take a breath, where he's not constantly on guard. Because he's walking the nightmare when he's awake, and he's waging a war against the impossible enemy. He needs every single bit of his mental and emotional reserves. He cannot afford to spend even the slightest amount on warring with his own people. If I can, I will surround him only with people who provide him comfort, support, positive emotions, and happiness.

Ashley is not one of those. And I simply don't care about how she feels anymore, after she pulled that stunt on Horizon. I don't care what she believes in. I don't care what her reasons are. I don't care if she's desperate, angry, or vindictive. I don't care what thoughts are going through her head. All I care about is getting her out of my way. The galaxy doesn't depend on her emotional stability. Shepard's emotions take priority to me. She doesn't matter for the survival of the trillions. And she's just one person who has no say, who refused to have a say when she was offered that chance. One person vs. trillions.

Simple math, guys.

EDIT: Consider me Shepard's Warrant Officer.

Again, let me restate my point. Shepard is a hardened combat officer. Maybe we're judging him by different standards, but in the Australian Army, it is bloody well demanded for officers to be able to put their emotional bull**** on the backburner till the job is done. Shepard survived Akuze/Elysium/Torfan by being the toughest son of a **** around, both physically and mentally. Someone calling him a traitor should have no more effect on him than a blowfly buzzing an elephant.

"You shall not sleep, eat, rest or lean against a tree until every man you command has done so." That is the mantra that every leader is taught. To be completely unselfish in the way you think and act, especially when dealing with your subordinates. That means ignoring any BS that they come out with when they're tired, stressed and angry. Perhaps that's the difference between us? I'm used to ignoring what people say, and getting down into the core of what they're thinking. I appreciate that people say things they don't really mean in the heat of the moment. Half formed suspicions, feelings of loss, guilt or remorse that have been dwelt upon for far too long, it doesn't matter. We're all just human.

Long story short, what works small, works large. Shepard has dealt with this before on a smaller scale. He is accustomed to people questioning his motivations. He knows that deep down, Ash is a good soldier, one of the best around. He knows that she still has feelings for him, and still wants to trust him, but just doesn't know what to think anymore. He can help her find herself again, give her back the security she lost when he died. He just needs to be the leader we know him to be. He doesn't need to be babied or have a relaxed mental state.

[Han Shot First]

The problem I have with how the Horizon encounter plays out is not that Ashley reacts angrily to Shepard's association with Cerberus, but that Shepard makes practically no effort to explain his actions. This is particularly mind boggling considering a lot of versions of Shepard were only working with Cerberus out of pure necessity, and both hate and distrust the organization as much as Ashley does. I wish that option was there even if Ashley had a "I don't care why you are working with them" reply.

The conversation just seemed a little unrealistic to me in that Shepard goes for the "Hey..it'll be like old times" approach when being accused of being a traitor.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 28 septembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[keboo]

She is still my girl except if I'll be able to continue my romance with Kelly..

[keboo]

I guess.

[knightnblu]

Alperez
 
You provide opinion, drawn from your knowledge of human interactions, drawn from life experiences, and drawn from sympathy for the character. In other words you draw your proof from outside of canon. The only evidence that you yield from canon relies heavily on who it is interpreted and that is highly subjective. While I freely admit that I do this as well, I also rely heavily on what is presented. I will not contend with you on this.
 
You believe that I have nothing, but contempt for Williams. You are wrong. You assume that I have lived a sheltered life without the benefit of human interaction, again you are mistaken. I shall not elaborate, but don't tell me that I don't feel or cannot comprehend human suffering because I have seen it with my own eyes in its various and sundry forms.
 
You say that Williams no longer trusts Shepard, tell me something that I don't know. Again and again you accuse me of failing to comprehend her situation. You say that you are a military man and that you have lead troops in combat, how can you not see the risks associated with Williams? There are way too many variables with her.
 
1. You don't know if you can ever regain her trust or convince her to trust you.
 
2. How in the name of God are you ever going to prove that you were resurrected from the dead? All of the records were destroyed and do you really think that she will believe Liara or Miranda? I don't think so. She will likely think that you put them up to lying for you, further widening the rift between you.
 
3. If she thinks that you are a liar on Horizon, what makes you believe that she will ever believe a word that comes out of your mouth again? About anything?
 
4. If she is assigned to your command in ME3, what guarantees to do you have that she will follow your orders? Doubt is a terrible thing in a combat soldier.
 
5. If you take her back into your command, how do you know that she won't be a subversive element in your command deep sixing the morale on the Normandy and presenting a constant thorn in your side?
 
6. If you are in combat and lives hang in the balance and you give Williams an order that seems questionable, how do you know that she will follow it? What if she questions it and gets you or another team member or herself killed as a result?
 
 
That's just six problems off the top of my head. Williams witnessed what happened on Horizon and still doesn't believe Shepard. If she can ignore that, what else can she place in her blind spot? Yet you believe that she's going to cool off and bingo! Everything will be all right. You and I have very different ideas about how to run a unit. Let's examine Shepard's situation shall we?
 
First, he is being taken back to Earth, likely in chains, to be tried for his actions on Bahak. You may recall that Shepard iced more than 300k Batarians comprising men, women, and children. He also destroyed a mass relay. I have no idea what the charges will be, but they should be hum dingers.
 
You think Ash is going to give you a celebratory kiss for that? Think she'll be singing your praises do you? Personally, I think she is going to think that you are one titanic, murderous bastard. If she thought that you were a terrorist before, wait 'till she hears about Bahak. That would be the 7th problem with her in case you are counting.
 
Fortunately, before you can be sentenced to execution for your mass murder episode, the Reapers show up. Good timing, don't you think? And before you say "it was a military necessity," if you recall the Alliance thinks that the Reapers is nothing more than your personal fantasy. They will never see it your way. More, it should probably worry the hell out of you that nobody ever saw this coming. How many are really indoctrinated? How can you be certain of anyone? You have been gone for two years and as you have so aptly pointed out, a lot can change. That means that you have awakened to a highly fluid environment and its about to get a lot worse. As the Earth is laid to siege, the rest of the galaxy is under Reaper and apparently Heretic attack, the surviving governments are all squabbling about what to do. Oh, and Cerberus is indoctrinated. Good times!
 
Making matters worse, each second you delay is another second that the peoples of the Earth are being indoctrinated. There is no cure for that by the way, in case you were wondering. Further, because the Council governments are under simultaneous assault and arguing amongst themselves, you have got to get them in accord in order to get an assault force built. You also have to get a team together. Did I mention that since the Alliance command is trashed that pretty much leaves you alone on the human front? I'm sure that if the 5th fleet survived Hackett would give you a hand, but I suspect that he has his hands full trying to coordinate refugee efforts and attempting to contain the Reapers and find the indoctrinated forces under his command. Did I mention that you will have to come up with a counterstrike strategy that will involve a massive counterattack on the Reapers? No? Well, you do.
 
So with all of that on Shepard's plate and the various and sundry missions, where will he find time to re-earn the trust of Ashley, repair the damage to his relationship with her, prove to her that he isn't a liar and a bastard, and somehow regain his trust in her? I mean, trust has to be earned right? When is he going to have the time to do that exactly?
 
From my perspective, it is a hell of a lot easier to just deep six Williams from the outset. With that problem solved, now I can concentrate on saving lives without that particular distraction. You may think me a S.O.B. for that, but I don't really care. It is the smart, efficient, and wise course of action. Additionally it is highly unlikely that I will survive ME3 so in effect, I'll be doing Williams a favor by kicking her ass off of my ship. She could even write a book about our time together and our relationship and become a multi-millionaire in the process and be set for life for regaling everyone with tales of what an unsavory and cruel person that I was. Where you on the other hand, want to saddle me with her and her associated problems to increase my headache and operational difficulty. No thank you. I am not a masochist, but I am a realist.
 
If the situation were different, that is the galaxy were not burning, Earth was not under siege, the governments of the galaxy were not back stabbing one another, etc., I may be inclined to see things your way. But such is not the case.
 
This is because it all falls on my shoulders and I am apparently the only one who has a prayer of stopping this. Have you ever heard of rank having its privileges? Well, one of those privileges is not have to deal with petty BS. That was why God created junior officers and noncoms. Petty BS is their problem.
 
So you see, it isn't that I don't understand your points or necessarily that I disagree with them in general, but that I have bigger fish to fry and the situation is dire. If I survive ME3 then I might give your way a shot as the Reaper's burn and we have saved as many as we are going to, if not Ash can always get a book deal and possibly a movie deal as well and God bless her for it. If I fail and the Reapers come out on top, it really doesn't matter anyways does it? This is because we will all be dead or indoctrinated. Again, good times!
 
I am sorry that you cannot see that there are other more important matters than Shepard's love life. That they transcend personal and family issues. That there is a hell of a lot more on the line than just a relationship and that each tick of the clock brings you closer to a messy end. I had hoped that I would have had the luxury of Williams support, but she has withdrawn it. Regardless of the reasons, it was her choice.
 
You may have time for couples counseling, but I don't. I have a job to do.

[CptData]

Ashley is still "Shepard's girl" ... sort of. At least if you had her as LI in ME and didn't cheat on her.

One thing I always have in mind: Ash had to live 2 full years with the knowledge Shepard died. She had a lot of time to mourn over his death (what she did) and to move one (dito). I'm pretty sure her career as a marine was one of the most important reasons why she hadn't time to find a new love.
Shepard on the other hand didn't had to wait those 2 years before he met her again. The time span between awakening & leaving that Cerberus station and the mission on Horizon is not much longer than 2 to 4 weeks. Instead of 2 years it has been just 2 to 4 weeks for Shepard when he saw Ashley last time! While his feelings are still strong, Ashleys are no longer present - or very weak.

Easy-mode:
Shepard: still in "deep in love" (kinda)
Ashley: post-love since her lover's death.

That's not the perfect situation to renew a relationship - plus: Cerberus, Collectors 'n stuff. That puts a real burden on anything ... Ash feels betrayed because Shepard works for Cerberus, Shepard feels betrayed since Ashley is so totally different from the Ashley he knew literally a couple of weeks ago. Not to mention her hostile reaction.

Still: she is Shepard's (my) girl. If he (I) can win her back in ME3.

I know, "easy-mode" doesn't fully cover what happens between Ash and Shep, but it's enough to explain stuff.

edited for obvious reasons

Modifié par CptData, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[Iakus]

I'm not military, however...

[quote]knightnblu wrote...

1. You don't know if you can ever regain her trust or convince her to trust you.[/quote]

Shepard's claims on Horizon were vindicated.  Ash knows this.  She proved to the Alliance and teh COuncil that the Collectors were responsible.  I think she's already starting to trust him again.  I'm actually more worried about what she'll think of Bahak, as that dwarfs anything Shepard had done up til that point.  
 
[quote]
2. How in the name of God are you ever going to prove that you were resurrected from the dead? All of the records were destroyed and do you really think that she will believe Liara or Miranda? I don't think so. She will likely think that you put them up to lying for you, further widening the rift between you.[/quote]

Shepard was ressurected at least in part via cybernetics.  A medical examination would reveal if any of Shepard's vital processes are now being run synthetically.  I imagine SHepard will receive such an exam if for no other reason than to be certain of his identity  and to determine what sort of threat he may pose.
 
[quote]
3. If she thinks that you are a liar on Horizon, what makes you believe that she will ever believe a word that comes out of your mouth again? About anything?[/quote]

Again, Ash's investigation determined Shepard was telling the truth.  She proved it to the Alliance, as they started evacuating the colonies she can and reinforcing the ones they can't  I'm more worried that she'll think Shepard's lost his mind after Bahak  than anything else.
 
[quote]
4. If she is assigned to your command in ME3, what guarantees to do you have that she will follow your orders? Doubt is a terrible thing in a combat soldier.[/quote]

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.  The guarantees we have are her patriotism, her duty, and the fact that they both want to save the galaxy from the Reapers.  Beyond that, we'll have to see.
 
[quote]
5. If you take her back into your command, how do you know that she won't be a subversive element in your command deep sixing the morale on the Normandy and presenting a constant thorn in your side?[/quote]

Again, she's a professional.  Whatever she thinks of Shepard personally, she won't endanger the mission or others out of pettiness.  Especially not while the stakes are so high.  She's perfectly willing to work with Wrex, Garrus, Liara, and the STG team.  
 
[quote]
6. If you are in combat and lives hang in the balance and you give Williams an order that seems questionable, how do you know that she will follow it? What if she questions it and gets you or another team member or herself killed as a result?[/quote]

This is a question I can't answer.  A questionable order is by definition "questionable"  You can't know for sure if it would be followed, but I'd still trust her over the likes of Jack or Zaeed.  
 
[/quote]

Modifié par iakus, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[Nashiktal]

I don't know, I'd trust zaeed over everyone if he is being payed properly.

[Almostfaceman]

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

Whoa, cool. Do you have a link?

[Ryzaki]

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

[Almostfaceman]

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

Good luck with that. 

[Han Shot First]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

Good luck with that. 

This.

Without the Alliance, where are you getting the ships to fight the Reapers?

[Ryzaki]

Han Shot First wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

Good luck with that. 

This.

Without the Alliance, where are you getting the ships to fight the Reapers?

I'm stealing the Normandy is from where. Granted they stole that ship in the first place so...

Other than that don't need them. They're being pretty harshly reamed by the Reapers anyway. 

Plus Council Spectre. Hello there council that owes me a favor. I want ships to fight sentinent starships that I warned you about 3 years ago. And if Shep has been decomissioned he can be re-instated once again. 

Now it's nice to have their help...but Shep certainly doesn't rely on them to do his job. He needs finances (which he can probably get from SB or the council), he needs ships (which he can get from any country that wants to fight the reapers), he needs soldiers (again he can get from any country that wants to fight the Reapers). 

Frankly I do want the option to desert. My Shep doesn't appreciate being used as a scapegoat and then when **** hits the fan they want to clamor to him for help. Especially when he's getting crap out of it. At least with the council he gets plenty of power, the alliance doesn't really give him squat. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[DarkDragon777]

Ryzaki wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

Good luck with that. 

This.

Without the Alliance, where are you getting the ships to fight the Reapers?

I'm stealing the Normandy is from where. 

Other than that don't need them. They're being pretty harshly reamed by the Reapers anyway. 

Plus Council Spectre. Hello there council that owes me a favor. I want ships to fight sentinent starships that I warned you about 3 years ago. 

Shepard does not need the alliance. 

Yes he does. Just because you think the council owes you something doesn't mean they'll return the favor for what you did. Plus, the Alliance has one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, other than the Turians and Geth. You need the manpower.

[MegaBadExample]

Ryzaki wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

It's too bad there doesn't seem to be a choice to tell him to shove that reinstatement where the sun doesn't shine. 

My Shepard is deserting. Screw the alliance. 

Good luck with that. 

This.

Without the Alliance, where are you getting the ships to fight the Reapers?

I'm stealing the Normandy is from where. 

Other than that don't need them. They're being pretty harshly reamed by the Reapers anyway. 

Plus Council Spectre. Hello there council that owes me a favor. I want ships to fight sentinent starships that I warned you about 3 years ago. And if Shep has been decomissioned he can be re-instated once again. 

Shepard does not need the alliance. 

Now it's nice to have their help...but Shep certainly doesn't rely on them to do his job. He needs finances (which he can probably get from SB or the council) but he certainly doesn't need the alliance if anything it's the other way around. 

LOL

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm stealing the Normandy is from where. 

Other than that don't need them. They're being pretty harshly reamed by the Reapers anyway. 

Plus Council Spectre. Hello there council that owes me a favor. I want ships to fight sentinent starships that I warned you about 3 years ago. And if Shep has been decomissioned he can be re-instated once again. 

Shepard does not need the alliance. 

Now it's nice to have their help...but Shep certainly doesn't rely on them to do his job. He needs finances (which he can probably get from SB or the council) but he certainly doesn't need the alliance if anything it's the other way around. 

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

[Ryzaki]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Yes he does. Just because you think the council owes you something doesn't mean they'll return the favor for what you did. Plus, the Alliance has one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, other than the Turians and Geth. You need the manpower.

You really think the council isn't going to be willing to help Shepard fight the Reapers?  Even after they know he has fought them off 3 times? Really? By the time Shepard meets the council the Reaper threat has been validated. There is no "Ah yes 'Reapers.'." because the Reapers are landing on all the homeplanets. Kind of hard to deny them when they're right in front of your face. And why not help the one person who has meet them before and even killed one of them? Not to the extent that it leaves you crippled but I see everyone being willing to help due to self-preservation if nothing else 

The alliance largest military force is getting reamed by the Reapers. They kind of need to protect their home from being blown up [well more like protect their people from becoming baby reaper goo] but the Reapers beelined towards Earth so they can make their HRB again. It's highly likely Earth (and humanity by extension) is gonna be the Reapers #1 target. Not to mention Earth is caught with it's pants down. 

Between that and indoctrinated Cerberus I see the alliance taking a heavy beating. 

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

Because if they don't they'll die. It's simple self interest not altrusim. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[DarkDragon777]

Ryzaki wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Yes he does. Just because you think the council owes you something doesn't mean they'll return the favor for what you did. Plus, the Alliance has one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, other than the Turians and Geth. You need the manpower.

You really think the council isn't going to be willing to help Shepard fight the Reapers?  Even after they know he has fought them off 3 times? Really? 

The alliance largest military force is getting reamed by the Reapers. They kind of need to protect their home from being blown up (so does everyone else) but the Reapers beelined towards Earth so they can make their HRB again. It's highly likely Earth (and humanity by extension) is gonna be the Reapers #1 target. 

Sure, why not? The council are going to run like the cowards they are (especially the human council). I'm sure you'll be winning the loyalty of the races by appealing to their real leaders, not the council.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Ryzaki]

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Sure, why not?  The council are going to run like the cowards they are (especially the human council). I'm sure you'll be winning the loyalty of the races by appealing to their real leaders, not the council.

There's nowhere to run though. 

But we'll see come ME3. 

I really don't want to beforced to be an alliance soldier though. Even if it's just at endgame where I can be like "Lulz. I quit." before stealing the Normandy and leaving I'll be happy. 

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

Because if they don't they'll die. 

Yet to be seen. As far as they know the Reapers only want humans. They haven't attacked anyone else. It's a human problem. They don't want to be next, they stay out of it. They didn't know anything about Reapers until Shepard started talking about them after all. They could justify any inaction by saying Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians in a failed attempt to solve a problem humans brought upon themselves. I could easily see them using that line of thinking.