1035 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

iakus - There are just too many variables and no guarantees. Nowhere in that list is a constant. Don't get me wrong, I would very much like to redress the problems that I have with Ashley the way that you, alperez, and Made Nightwing have described. I never wanted to be on the outs with Ashley. But I have a job to do and the stakes are all in.
 
With an all or nothing situation, fourth quarter and two minutes left on the clock, I just can't see spending time on my love life when I have no way of knowing the outcome of my repair efforts. That is a distraction that I cannot afford.
 
Frankly, we don't even know if Ash will be returning as an enemy (after she learns of Bahak), a friend, or as a rival for command. With the amount of variables associated with bringing her back, it just isn't worth the effort from an operational standpoint. Further, nowhere is it carved in granite that we can actually get her back as an LI anyway.
 
In my opinion, better to cut your losses and move on with the business at hand.
 
 
"As am I But I believe that the one-size-fits-all dialogue is a weakness of the writing, not the character. IF there was a paragon-based dialogue where Ash was more stunned than enraged, this thread may not exist."
 
I agree completely. They track the paragon/renegade scores and use them to open new dialog branches, but by not using them for a situation like Horizon is...not right. I realize that BioWare never intended for people to deep six Ashley on Horizon, but in view of her absurdity on Horizon, how could they not see this coming? While I didn't deal the cards, I still have to play them as they are dealt.
 
"Actually I would think #3 would be a liklihood for paragon Sheps. The Sheps that let Balak escape to rescue the hostages, The ones that rewrite rather than destroy the geth, Who rescue refinery workers rather than take out the head of the Blue Suns."
 
I took out Balak, but saved the miners in Zaeed's loyalty mission. Balak was far too dangerous to be allowed to walk. I also re-wrote the Geth in order to make a stronger Geth faction. Don't know if I will regret that in ME3 though.
 
 
"But the lie wasn't that Shepard was alive. The lie wasn't that Shepard was working with Cerberus. If these two impossibilities (and the death, at least, was an impossibility, based on everything Ash knew) turned out to be accurate, could you really blame Ash for wondering if other rumors might be true as well? You ask if Shepard can trust Ash. But as of Horizon, could Ash trust Shepard? The words used were harsh, too harsh for a paragon Shep."
 
I have never blamed Ashley for doubting. Doubt is healthy, I blame her for her lack of judgment and faith in a man that she knew and loved. As soon as she went down that path, it was the end of the relationship. In my mind, had I caught her in bed with another man, I would have been more forgiving of the betrayal. But I view Ashley's betrayal on multiple levels. She betrayed her former commander, her lover, herself, and her family. That's a pretty big deal in my mind. How does a mealymouthed emailed apology fix that? It doesn't. In fact, it isn't even a good beginning. As such, Williams is high maintenance at this point in the story and my time is severely limited.
 
If Williams wants back in she's going to have to have to give me a damned good reason for doing so.
 
"Again, she's a professional. Whatever she thinks of Shepard personally, she won't endanger the mission or others out of pettiness. Especially not while the stakes are so high. She's perfectly willing to work with Wrex, Garrus, Liara, and the STG team."
 
Right, but she trusted me then. She did those things because she trusted that I knew what I was doing and that it was the right thing to do. She doesn't now. Hence, I have no idea how she will respond. I can't trust her and she doesn't trust me. Can that be repaired? I have no idea, but I don't have the time for a long, drawn out couple's counseling sessions. I am willing to grant Williams one shot to convince me. It had better be one hell of an explanation or she can pack her gear.
 
I feel this way because of two reasons:
 
1. As soon as she heard the word Cerberus she closed her ears and her mind.
 
2. She wrote me off because she had her hind end hoisted up on her shoulders because she was pissed about something that she didn't understand and had no inclination to find out about it.
 
What's more, she knew that she didn't know. She was told that Shepard couldn't contact her because he was in a coma while Cerberus rebuilt him. She never explored that. To me that about screams "life threatening injuries," but that didn't seem to faze Williams and she loved you. That's one of the main reasons that I thought that there was a new beau in her life. Under such conditions, Shepard can't expect to be top dog with Williams.
 
Still, never saw the betrayal coming. I never expected her to come with, but I also never expected that reaction either. Truth is, it caught me flat footed. I like to think that it caught Shepard flat footed as well and that's why he had such poor dialog. Hard to think strait when your mind is reeling.
 
"This is a question I can't answer. A questionable order is by definition "questionable" You can't know for sure if it would be followed, but I'd still trust her over the likes of Jack or Zaeed."
 
This is where trust comes in. Trust that Shepard knows what he is doing. Trust that he is doing the right thing. Trust that what he is ordering is necessary. Trust that Shepard will look out for them and watch their backs. Trust that there isn't another viable alternative. It takes a long time to build that kind of trust. I have never fully trusted Jack. She's a bit of a loose cannon. As far as Zaeed is concerned, I would trust that man with my life. I had to deck him and threaten to put a bullet in his head, but we are on the same team now. ;-)
 
Almostfaceman - It was in the game trailer where the Reapers arrive and Shep and Anderson have to fight through reams of husks. One of the game play demos if I am not mistaken.

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

Because if they don't they'll die. 

Yet to be seen. As far as they know the Reapers only want humans. They haven't attacked anyone else. It's a human problem. They don't want to be next, they stay out of it. They didn't know anything about Reapers until Shepard started talking about them after all. They could justify any inaction by saying Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians in a failed attempt to solve a problem humans brought upon themselves. I could easily see them using that line of thinking.

Uh...what? 

...The Reapers have attacked others. They hit Earth (and I think it's suggested that they hit the Batarians even before Earth with the Cannibals) and keep on moving.They attacked the Citadel in ME1. It's not just humans they're after. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:16 .

[Nashiktal]

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

Because if they don't they'll die. 

Yet to be seen. As far as they know the Reapers only want humans. They haven't attacked anyone else. It's a human problem. They don't want to be next, they stay out of it. They didn't know anything about Reapers until Shepard started talking about them after all. They could justify any inaction by saying Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians in a failed attempt to solve a problem humans brought upon themselves. I could easily see them using that line of thinking.

Uh...what? 

...The Reapers have attacked others. They hit Earth (and I think it's suggested that they hit the Batarians even before Earth with the Cannibals) and keep on moving. There is no "oh only humans are being attacked." 

They also attacked the Turians to the point of them having to move all military from their homeworld to their moon.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:14 .

[DarkDragon777]

Ryzaki wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Sure, why not?  The council are going to run like the cowards they are (especially the human council). I'm sure you'll be winning the loyalty of the races by appealing to their real leaders, not the council.

There's nowhere to run though. 

But we'll see come ME3. 

I really don't want to beforced to be an alliance soldier though. Even if it's just at endgame where I can be like "Lulz. I quit." before stealing the Normandy and leaving I'll be happy. 

Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I hope they do give the option to quit at the end. Still, I'm sure being a part of the Alliance for most of the game is going to tie into he story somehow.

[Ryzaki]

Nashiktal wrote...
They also attacked the Turians to the point of them having to move all military from their homeworld to their moon.

Ouch. 

Oh no Garrus' mom!  Please don't tell me Garrus is gonna end up an orphan. That...that would really really suck.  

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I hope they do give the option to quit at the end. Still, I'm sure being a part of the Alliance for most of the game is going to tie into he story somehow.

It's gonna be like Cerberus all over again *sighs*. "why hello there I'm gonna pretend you never did anything to earn my ire and be perfect and subserviant until the endgame where I tell you to f*** off steal your people, your tech and your ship." 

Well that might not be so bad actually. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:18 .

[DarkDragon777]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
They also attacked the Turians to the point of them having to move all military from their homeworld to their moon.

Ouch. 

Oh no Garrus' mom!  Please don't tell me Garrus is gonna end up an orphan. That...that would really really suck. 

Don't worry, Mama Vakarian has the powers of interstellar instantanious flight and can shoot lasers out of her oven mitts.

[Almostfaceman]

knightnblu wrote...


Almostfaceman - It was in the game trailer where the Reapers arrive and Shep and Anderson have to fight through reams of husks. One of the game play demos if I am not mistaken.

Thanks, I'm digging around for it now, I've seen the demo but the one's I've seen always end before the dialogue with Anderson - I've read the description though.

[Ryzaki]

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Don't worry, Mama Vakarian has the powers of interstellar instantanious flight and can shoot lasers out of her oven mitts.

I hope so maybe Garrus gets his Batman powers from her. 

[DarkDragon777]

Ryzaki wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Don't worry, Mama Vakarian has the powers of interstellar instantanious flight and can shoot lasers out of her oven mitts.

I hope so maybe Garrus gets his Batman powers from her. 

Yeah, Garrus inherited all of his awesomeness from his mom. So much the Reapers secretly envy Garrus' mom. They even stole the formula for their hyper-powerful laser beams from her.

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Why do you think the Council would break the bank for a man being investigated by his own government?

Because if they don't they'll die. 

Yet to be seen. As far as they know the Reapers only want humans. They haven't attacked anyone else. It's a human problem. They don't want to be next, they stay out of it. They didn't know anything about Reapers until Shepard started talking about them after all. They could justify any inaction by saying Shepard killed 300,000 Batarians in a failed attempt to solve a problem humans brought upon themselves. I could easily see them using that line of thinking.

Uh...what? 

...The Reapers have attacked others. They hit Earth (and I think it's suggested that they hit the Batarians even before Earth with the Cannibals) and keep on moving.They attacked the Citadel in ME1. It's not just humans they're after. 

So you don't know. If you find evidence I'll look at it. I'm reasonable. And it should distinguish whether or not they were harvesting communities or whether or not they were kidnapping a few to see if they would be an option for harvesting.

They didn't attack the Citadel to harvest the aliens onboard, they were trying to use it as a mass relay. They weren't trying to attack their transportation. The Citadel fleets just folied their plans.

EDIT: Distinguish if possible. Info isn't always clear.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Nashiktal wrote...

They also attacked the Turians to the point of them having to move all military from their homeworld to their moon

I haven't heard this before. Where did you learn it? Can you give me a link?

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...
So you don't know. If you find evidence I'll look at it. I'm reasonable. And it should distinguish whether or not they were harvesting communities or whether or not they were kidnapping a few to see if they would be an option for harvesting.

They didn't attack the Citadel to harvest the aliens onboard, they were trying to use it as a mass relay. They weren't trying to attack their transportation. The Citadel fleets just folied their plans.

...I don't know? Just...what? The evidence? Yes I suppose the sentinent starships blowing up your people apparently doesn't count as evidence enough nor do Asari, Rachni, Krogan and Batarian? husks (well more like Scions but whateves). Yup. The husks are just there because...the Reapers want to pass out cupcakes or some nonsense. 

No they didn't. They weren't planning on harvesting anyone originally they were just gonna kill everything. Until ME2 and they realized "Humans are Special". Then they wanted to harvest humans and kill everyone else. The plan that was foiled was killing all organic life. 

http://thebestforume...effect-3.73146/
http://neogaf.net/fo...ad.php?t=427936

Speculation and (some information) from magazines. These are just forum writeups but I'm pretty sure they're accurate. Probably can find the same data in the giant ME3 thread around here. 

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Yeah, Garrus inherited all of his awesomeness from his mom. So much the Reapers secretly envy Garrus' mom. They even stole the formula for their hyper-powerful laser beams from her.

That explains everything! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

...I don't know? Just...what? The evidence? Yes I suppose the sentinent starships blowing up your people apparently doesn't count as evidence enough nor do Asari and Batarian husks. Yup. The husks are just there because...the Reapers want to pass out cupcakes or some nonsense. 

No they didn't. They weren't planningon harvesting anyone originally they were just gonna kill everything. Until ME2 and they realized "Humans are Special". Then they wanted to harvest humans and kill everyone else. The plan that was foiled was killing all organic life. 

No it doesn't count because the Reapers aren't harvesting them. They're not trying to wipe out their whole race. The Council isn't going to charge in to the resue if they think the Reapers will take what they want and leave with no major harm done to any other species. They aren't equipped to fight the Reapers. No one is. 

And the Reapers haven't launched an all out attack on anyone else yet since Shepard has option to round up forces.

They've known for a while about the potential of humans. Long before Shepard. They've been weighing up every race and decided humans were what they wanted. Harbinger Quotes.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

iakus wrote...

Anderson personally reinstates Shepard in the Alliance in the Fall of Earth demo.

Whoa, cool. Do you have a link?

I searched but coudn't find one, the demos all cut out before it happened, but there was an article posted a while back:


http://www.newsarama...door-110616.html

Relevant portion:

During the closed-door demo, Shepard and Anderson are trying to escape Earth in what seems is the start of the Reaper invasion. Once they reach the Normandy, however, Anderson proclaims that he is staying behind to help others escape (but not before throwing Shepard her dog tags and saying she should consider herself reinstated in the Alliance Military).

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...
No it doesn't count because the Reapers aren't harvesting them. They're not trying to wipe out their whole race. The Council isn't going to charge in to the resue if they think the Reapers will take what they want and leave with no major harm done to any other species. They aren't equipped to fight the Reapers. No one is. 

And the Reapers haven't launched an all out attack on anyone else yet since Shepard has option to round up forces.

They've known for a while about the potential of humans. Long before Shepard. They've been weighing up every race and decided humans were what they wanted. Harbinger Quotes.

...you can't be serious. 

The reapers aren't harvesting them true. The reapers are DESTROYING them. Down to the last child. Like they did the Protheans. Humanity will become Reaper Goo. Everyone else will become Collectors  (if they're unlucky) or just dead (if they're lucky). How is that not clear? 

And yes yes they have. Shepard is trying to get the survivors to band together and fight. I just...ugh. If you're not gonna bother reading up on ME3 please just tell me so I can stop this here. 

Yeah humans are gonna become the next Reaper. Everyone else will be destroyed/Collectorized. What about that is hard to understand? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Nashiktal]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

They also attacked the Turians to the point of them having to move all military from their homeworld to their moon

I haven't heard this before. Where did you learn it? Can you give me a link?

Sure let me dig one out. Let me just say though that the reapers are actively attacking across the galaxy. They have taken out all resistance on palaven (turian homeworld) so the refugees all moved to their moon. Rannoch for some strange reason is also being attacked by the reapers. I am not sure why though, I thought the geth only kept a token force their to maintain it. We also know they attacked the batarians, but to what extent is unknown.

The turians and rannoch were revealed during E3. (I don't think the turians had a video though, the attack was revealed in an article) I hate spoilers, but in my excitement I watched e3 like mad.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:24 .

[Nashiktal]

Ah here we go, the turian info was revealed in magazines. Here is a summary of one of them. (scans are a no no, on your own for that)

http://www.neogaf.co....php?p=27272451

[YouthCultureForever]

Nashiktal wrote...

Ah here we go, the turian info was revealed in magazines. Here is a summary of one of them. (scans are a no no, on your own for that)

http://www.neogaf.co....php?p=27272451

Thanks!

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

...you can't be serious. 

The reapers aren't harvesting them true. The reapers are DESTROYING them. Down to the last child. Like they did the Protheans. Humanity will become Reaper Goo. Everyone else will become Collectors  (if they're unlucky) or just dead (if they're lucky). How is that not clear? 

And yes yes they have. Shepard is trying to get the survivors to band together and fight. I just...ugh. If you're not gonna bother reading up on ME3 please just tell me so I can stop this here. 

Yeah humans are gonna become the next Reaper. Everyone else will be destroyed/Collectorized. What about that is hard to understand? 

Okay if Shepard's organizing a resistance, why involve the Council at all?

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

"I agree completely. They track the paragon/renegade scores and use them to open new dialog branches, but by not using them for a situation like Horizon is...not right. I realize that BioWare never intended for people to deep six Ashley on Horizon, but in view of her absurdity on Horizon, how could they not see this coming? While I didn't deal the cards, I still have to play them as they are dealt.

My guess is they didn't see it comeing.  Likely they hadn't even realized that Ash (and Kaidan) had such a devoted fan base.

 And the thing about cards is they aren't a complete game of chance.  Even with a bad hand you can still sometimes come out a winner if you play them right 
 
 
"But the lie wasn't that Shepard was alive. The lie wasn't that Shepard was working with Cerberus. If these two impossibilities (and the death, at least, was an impossibility, based on everything Ash knew) turned out to be accurate, could you really blame Ash for wondering if other rumors might be true as well? You ask if Shepard can trust Ash. But as of Horizon, could Ash trust Shepard? The words used were harsh, too harsh for a paragon Shep."
 

I have never blamed Ashley for doubting. Doubt is healthy, I blame her for her lack of judgment and faith in a man that she knew and loved. As soon as she went down that path, it was the end of the relationship. In my mind, had I caught her in bed with another man, I would have been more forgiving of the betrayal. But I view Ashley's betrayal on multiple levels. She betrayed her former commander, her lover, herself, and her family. That's a pretty big deal in my mind. How does a mealymouthed emailed apology fix that? It doesn't. In fact, it isn't even a good beginning. As such, Williams is high maintenance at this point in the story and my time is severely limited.

Ah, but from Ash's perspective, Shepard betrayed her.  He faked his death, went over to work for Cerberus.  And did who knows what else.  Best case scenerio is he was in fact injured in the Normandy's destruction and Cerberus scrambled his brain while fixing him up so he felt obligated to help them out.  We know better, because we've seen everything from Shepard's perspective.  

I'm sure my Shep would be just as hurt if it was Ash that got spaced and two years later I found her fighting alongside Cerberus, especially if nasty rumors were circulating that she faked her death and went to work for them.  Only my Shep would have been more diplomatic in his responses, not to mention more inquisitive (asssuming such responses were allowed)
 

If Williams wants back in she's going to have to have to give me a damned good reason for doing so.

And here I'm thinking I'll need a really good reason to justify blowing up a solar system :innocent:
 

Right, but she trusted me then. She did those things because she trusted that I knew what I was doing and that it was the right thing to do. She doesn't now. Hence, I have no idea how she will respond. I can't trust her and she doesn't trust me. Can that be repaired? I have no idea, but I don't have the time for a long, drawn out couple's counseling sessions. I am willing to grant Williams one shot to convince me. It had better be one hell of an explanation or she can pack her gear.

We don't know what Ash thinks now.  The Horizon issue is settled.  Shepard was vindicated.  What remains to be seen is how Ash reacts to seeing Shepard after saying the things she did.  Does she still see working with Cerberus as a betrayal?  Did she reconsider and decide Shep made the best of a bad situation?  Did Anderson stop stonewalling?  

And the issue of the Bahak system of course.  
 

I feel this way because of two reasons:
 
1. As soon as she heard the word Cerberus she closed her ears and her mind.
 
2. She wrote me off because she had her hind end hoisted up on her shoulders because she was pissed about something that she didn't understand and had no inclination to find out about it.
 
What's more, she knew that she didn't know. She was told that Shepard couldn't contact her because he was in a coma while Cerberus rebuilt him. She never explored that. To me that about screams "life threatening injuries," but that didn't seem to faze Williams and she loved you. That's one of the main reasons that I thought that there was a new beau in her life. Under such conditions, Shepard can't expect to be top dog with Williams.

True.  She should have asked more questions.  But still, it confirmed another "impossible" rumor to her.  Another lie that turned out to be true.  It could be that she didn't want to know what other terrible rumors about Shepard might be truie...

As to rebuilding Shepard, consider, there were only two ships in the area during the attack:  The Normandy, and the Collector cruiser.  If Shepard sustained life threatening injuries, who rescued him?  Shepard could well be lying about his injuries, and was in on a Cerberus plot,  or the Collectors and Cerberus really are in cahoots.  

Still, never saw the betrayal coming. I never expected her to come with, but I also never expected that reaction either. Truth is, it caught me flat footed. I like to think that it caught Shepard flat footed as well and that's why he had such poor dialog. Hard to think strait when your mind is reeling.

Indeed it took me off-guard as well.  Now consider what it did to Ashley, who may have spent up to two years "dismissing these claims"  

This is where trust comes in. Trust that Shepard knows what he is doing. Trust that he is doing the right thing. Trust that what he is ordering is necessary. Trust that Shepard will look out for them and watch their backs. Trust that there isn't another viable alternative. It takes a long time to build that kind of trust. I have never fully trusted Jack. She's a bit of a loose cannon. As far as Zaeed is concerned, I would trust that man with my life. I had to deck him and threaten to put a bullet in his head, but we are on the same team now. ;-)

And my Shepard will just have to resist giving insane orders to her for a time, ("Sorry, folks, no more death rides through the Conduit for a while!") I believe time and communication will heal the wound.  Not "couple's counseling" but simply hearing out what's been happening in their lives while they were seperated.  Ash learned that Shepard's mission on Horizon was legit (or as legit as any Cerberus operation can be) in time she'll learn other things that happened during ME2, and that SHepard hasn't turned into a Cerberus flunkie.  Hopefully Shepard will also learn more about what happened in Ash's life and in the Alliance for two years.  That's what's missing here, information and context.  It's bloody Shakespearean, almost 

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...you can't be serious. 

The reapers aren't harvesting them true. The reapers are DESTROYING them. Down to the last child. Like they did the Protheans. Humanity will become Reaper Goo. Everyone else will become Collectors  (if they're unlucky) or just dead (if they're lucky). How is that not clear? 

And yes yes they have. Shepard is trying to get the survivors to band together and fight. I just...ugh. If you're not gonna bother reading up on ME3 please just tell me so I can stop this here. 

Yeah humans are gonna become the next Reaper. Everyone else will be destroyed/Collectorized. What about that is hard to understand? 

Okay if Shepard's organizing a resistance, why involve the Council at all?

 

Oh I dunno maybe because they have resources and stuff that can be useful against the Reapers? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Eyeshield21]

no idea how it will play out, so I'll just read what you guys think.

[YouthCultureForever]

laecraft wrote...

YouthCultureForever, if you've never played ME1 and are unfamiliar with the concept of the Cycle of Extinction, read about what happened to the Protheans on wiki, watch the conversation with Vigil on youtube, or look up the wiki page about the Reapers. The Reapers do not intend to leave any advanced organic species in this galaxy alive. This is not debatable.

I've played ME1. We know the Reapers don't intend to leave anyone alive, but if the Council races thought they would take the humans and leave I don't think they'd help humanity. This is about perspective. If the Reapers have taken out your fleets and plunged your homeworlds into chaos why help the humans who brought this burden on themselves? They Reaper threat only appeared when humans started talking about them after all. The Reapers didn't kill everyone last time. Maybe they just don't want you helping humanity and they turn your world upside down so that you can't take action against them. Maybe they'll leave you alone once they got what they came for. That's a plausible line of thinking.

You're assuming that the aliens know as much about the Reapers as you do. They don't. They know next to nothing about the Reapers intentions.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 11:02 .