1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Well the Turians for sure know that they are not only after the humans.

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh I dunno maybe because they have resources and stuff that can be useful against the Reapers? 

The Council doesn't have any jurisdiction over individual governments. Those resources you're talking about don't belong to them.

[Nashiktal]

Well technically the councils rule over their own race in general sense of the word. They make general decisions on the direction their species will take. If a non council race needs resources, its the counciler who approves of the aid, know what I mean?

Its kinda like how the Systems Alliance rules over earth and the colonies. They don't directly govern them, but the systems alliance controls all resource flow and directly deals with other species.

[Majin Paul]

I've still to playthrough my final game so I'm undecided whether I'll keep my Shepard single in ME2 or if he'll romance Miranda.

[YouthCultureForever]

Nashiktal wrote...

Well technically the councils rule over their own race in general sense of the word. They make general decisions on the direction their species will take. If a non council race needs resources, its the counciler who approves of the aid, know what I mean?

Its kinda like how the Systems Alliance rules over earth and the colonies. They don't directly govern them, but the systems alliance controls all resource flow and directly deals with other species.

Those decisions the Council makes only carry weight because their governments chose to listen to them though.

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh I dunno maybe because they have resources and stuff that can be useful against the Reapers? 

The Council doesn't have any jurisdiction over individual governments. Those resources you're talking about don't belong to them.

Yet they can still get the resources which is the important bit. 

Otherwise Shepard doesn't need the alliance for their resources he can simply plea to Earth's rulers and get them from there. The point is either way is valid. 

[YouthCultureForever]

Nashiktal wrote...

Well the Turians for sure know that they are not only after the humans.

The Turians might think the Reapers are attacking them to just to make sure they don't interfere their plans for humanity. They aren't being harvested like humans. It could be a warning not tot help humanity.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yet they can still get the resources which is the important bit. 

Otherwise Shepard doesn't need the alliance for their resources he can simply plea to Earth's rulers and get them from there. The point is either way is valid. 

The Council can't get resources if their governments aren't listening to them. Their decisions only carry weight because their governments choose too. And the Alliance is already willing to help. They're humanity's last line of defense. The governments of Earth aren't going object to the resistance.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yet they can still get the resources which is the important bit. 

Otherwise Shepard doesn't need the alliance for their resources he can simply plea to Earth's rulers and get them from there. The point is either way is valid. 

The Council can't get resources if their governments aren't listening to them. Their decisions only carry weight because their governments choose too. And the Alliance is already willing to help. They're humanity's last line of defense. The governments of Earth aren't going object to the resistance.

....good lord. 

Just...nevermind. 

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yet they can still get the resources which is the important bit. 

Otherwise Shepard doesn't need the alliance for their resources he can simply plea to Earth's rulers and get them from there. The point is either way is valid. 

The Council can't get resources if their governments aren't listening to them. Their decisions only carry weight because their governments choose too. And the Alliance is already willing to help. They're humanity's last line of defense. The governments of Earth aren't going object to the resistance.

....good lord. 

Just...nevermind. 

What's the problem?

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...
What's the problem?

You don't seem to understand how your arguements apply for the Citadel as well as te alliance. Why would the governments of the turian object to a unifed attack against the Reapers? 

[knightnblu]

iakus - "And here I'm thinking I'll need a really good reason to justify blowing up a solar system "
 
Touche'! But then again I knew as soon as I did it that I had just bitten off a huge chunk of a crap sandwich. Frankly, I saw it as a career ender and figured that I would get life at hard labor in a max security military prison. Imagine my surprise as the Reapers show up for my trial! Who knew?
 
 
"As to rebuilding Shepard, consider, there were only two ships in the area during the attack: The Normandy, and the Collector cruiser. If Shepard sustained life threatening injuries, who rescued him? Shepard could well be lying about his injuries, and was in on a Cerberus plot, or the Collectors and Cerberus really are in cahoots."
 
Again, she would have had to ignore the evidence right before her eyes, disregard what she knew about Shepard, and jettisoned any and all trust of the man in response. Which is exactly what she did and why those things total a betrayal on personal and professional levels. In short, all trust is gone.
 
 
"That's what's missing here, information and context. It's bloody Shakespearean, almost"
 
I would have said a Greek tragedy, but alright.
 
 
YouthCultureForever - said "I've played ME1. We know the Reapers don't intend to leave anyone alive, but if the Council races thought they would take the humans and leave I don't think they'd help humanity. This is about perspective. If the Reapers have taken out your fleets and plunged your homeworlds into chaos why help the humans who brought this burden on the galaxy?"
 
 
In case you missed it, the husks are Batarian, Rachni, Asari, Human, Turian, and God knows what else. The entire galaxy is under assault. Once the Reapers breached Batarian space and accessed the mass relays they dispersed into other galactic sectors and launched attacks on the races that they found.
 
The reason that the Council races don't want to form up a fleet for a counterattack is because they are scrambling to protect their own citizens, and losing badly. The Reapers slaughtered the Alliance fleet shielding Earth and now it is nothing more than debris. In fact, it isn't really clear if the 5th fleet even still exists. Maybe it does, but nobody knows for sure.
 
I guess that my point is that humanity is defenseless and going down for the count. The natural assumption of the Council races will be that humanity is a lost cause and will focus their efforts toward their own survival despite the odds. Thus, Shepard's mission is to change their minds and that will be a hard row to hoe and it is just one of his many problems. Despite my dire assertion, I probably don't even have the situation even half as dire as what will really be going on. The galaxy is burning and everybody will be out for themselves.
 
It is going to be one hell of a mess.
 
"You're assuming that the aliens know as much about the Reapers as you do. They don't. They know next to nothing about the Reapers intentions."
 
You are half right. The Council has known for two years and done absolutely nothing. The Alliance has also known for two years and done nothing. The Quarians know because you informed the fleet Admiralty that you would need them in the fight against the Reapers. How much you want to bet that they have done nothing as well?
 
I can't really blame them though. Nobody ever sees the blade until it is pressed right up against their neck and starts to slice open their flesh. In the first half second of your throat being slit, you finally realize your danger. It's just that it is far too late to do anything about it, but die. So I guess that the races of the galaxy are more like us than anyone ever thought.
 
Think about that. For two years the galaxy could have been preparing for a war of desperation. They didn't, they wasted what little time they had left and now billions will die as a result of it. At least initially, if the Reapers are successful the entire galaxy will be cleansed of life. This has happened hundreds of times before. The only difference between those harvestings and this one is Shepard. Will it be enough? Well, that's what we are hoping, but the price of survival for the galaxy may cost of the end of humanity.
 
 
What are you prepared to sacrifice?

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't seem to understand how your arguements apply for the Citadel as well as te alliance. Why would the governments of the turian object to a unifed attack against the Reapers? 

Who says a unified attack is going to definitively work first of all? And why would they stick their necks out for humanity? They don't know what we do about the Reapers. They may not assume the Reapers want to destory them. They certainly don't know about the Collectors true identity and the possiblity that they may end up just like them.

Try looking at this from the limited perspective of a Turian official. You don't know anything about the Reapers except that some humans were poking around looking for info on them claiming they're going to harvest all life in the galaxy. It just sounds ridiculous. Next thing you know the Reapers show up and they're only harvesting humans. They attack your worlds but they aren't abducting your people by the billions. You might conclude that if it weren't for humanity sticking their noses in places where they don't belong this wouldn't have happened. Your past relations with them shows you they have a history of doing just that (FCW). Maybe the Reapers are attacking you so that you can't unite with the human resistance and interfere with their plans. And what can your remaining fleets do to stop mile high sentient machines anyways? Maybe the Reapers will just go away after they get what they came for.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 28 septembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[knightnblu]

One more thing, the only reason that the Reapers won't overrun the entire galaxy is because they must first consume the races that they encounter and this has been the only thing that has even slowed them down. We have precious little time and each tick of the clock brings our races closer to the grave.

Therefore time itself is our enemy and works for the Reapers. The longer we dither or remain undecided the closer our collective deaths draws. In short, we are going to have to hit the ground running and shoot, move, and communicate simultaneously the entire game. If they do ME3 right, of course. The word for ME3 should be frenetic.

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You don't seem to understand how your arguements apply for the Citadel as well as te alliance. Why would the governments of the turian object to a unifed attack against the Reapers? 

Who says a unified attack is going to definitively work first of all? And why would they stick their necks out for humanity? They don't know what we do about the Reapers. They may not assume the Reapers want to destory them. They certainly don't know about the Collectors true identity and the possiblity that they may end up just like them.

Try looking at this from the limited perspective of a Turian official. You don't know anything about the Reapers except that some humans were poking around looking for info on them claiming they're going to harvest all life in the galaxy. It just sounds ridiculous. Next thing you know the Reapers show up and they're only harvesting humans. They attack your worlds but they aren't abducting your people by the billions. You might conclude that if it weren't for humanity sticking their noses in places where they don't belong this wouldn't have happened. Your past relations with them shows you they have a history of doing just that (FCW). Maybe the Reapers are attacking you so that you can't unite with the human resistance and interfere with their plans. And what can your remaining fleets do to stop mile high sentient machines anyways? Maybe the Reapers will just go away after they get what they came for.

...*places head in hands*

For the love of god get some ME3 information please. Just...please. I have already told you several times all the races are under attack. Many races have already been huskified. The turians have no reason to believe the Reapers aren't after them too considering the reapers blew up the turian homeplanet to the extent that the military evacuated to their moon. 

Especially considering *drumroll* the Reapers are known for wiping out the Protheans completely. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 septembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[alperez]

Knight

Firstly if my last post came across as me having a personal dig at you or your own life experiences, i apologise, that wasn't really my intent, it was more to show that in dismissing what i've explained as genuine reasoning why Ash acts how she does, your post came across to me as someone dismissing their own understanding of how people function.

It was supposed to be more of a dig at how your phrased things, rather than you personally, again if you took it personally i apologise.

Now onto your latest post.

Once again your post analyses the situation on horizon while imo dismissing the human factor.

You ask for Ash to ignore emotion and to instead come to the choice she made simply based on an understanding of who Shepard really is.

Not only does this dismiss completely certain facts and how a normal person would examine them but even more clearly it dismisses the emotional connection between the 2 people involve and how that too plays a large part in events on horizon.

Simply put, i gave an example of what Shepards basic position is, he's a presumed dead soldier who returns from the dead working with people who are considered by the alliance/council (the people both he and Ash supposedly serve) as terrorists.

On a non emotional rationale for Ash a serving military person to give the trust you wish her to give to someone in the postion Shepard is in would not just be ridicolous it would be treasonous.

The facts of the matter are this, Shepard's been presumed dead for 2 years only to return working with terrorists, His explanation for both his absence and why working with cerberus is the only option, does not clear up or eliminate the possibility that he's been duped, brainwashed or has been working for cerberus willingly.

We however are aware of certain facts and relevant info that shows us this is not the case, Ash not being aware of those facts instead must rely on the evidence in front of her and Shepard's own explanations.

What i've asserted all along though is that before you get to this point something occurs which doesn't allow Ash to even begin to understand or accept Shepard's reasoning or the evidence itself, which of course leads us back to emotions and the personal nature of the relationship.

It is because of the personal nature of the relationship and how Ash perceives Shepard has handled that relationship that things become so clouded so quickly on horizon.

Simply put, Ash faced with a returning Shepard can no longer believe he actually died on the normandy, she must believe he somehow survived, not having any information about the events that passed prior to the meeting on horizon forces this to be the case.

Like i said she has no knowledge of Liara's actions, no knowledge of the Lazurus project and no knowledge that its taken 2 years to rebuild Shepard and he's only just awoken from a coma.

What she does have is rumours that shepards been alive, rumours that he's working with cerberus, rumours that simply put Shepard's return practically prove right, certainly in Ash's mind they do.

She questions Shepard from that perspective, from the perspective of feeling that Shepard's been alive and working with cerberus for 2 years, that during that time he didn't care enough to let her know he was alive and instead let her believe he was dead. She questions why he would do that to her, why he would let her go through that, which leads to in itself not just a question over how Shepard really felt about their relationship, but whether or not Ash really ever knew Shepard.

All of these things are clear in what she says to Shepard, yet you say i offer no facts only assumptions based on no evidence, if Ash's words aren't evidence of how she feels then what is?

Ash perceives Shepard has betrayed their relationship, betrayed her personally and by working with cerberus has betrayed the alliance also, I've explained numerous times why this is the case, but you ignore her feeling and perceptions as being irrelevant to how she acts, when clearly its the reason she acts how she does.

That's the part of your stance i can't understand, if you perceive someone as having betrayed you personally and what you thought they stood for then how can you expect that person to offer you loyalty and trust when in their mind you've already proved yourself disloyal and untrustworthy.

We being aware of certain facts and certain info can see that Ash is wrong, that she's mistaken and that she should have trusted and been loyal to Shepard, But Ash is not us, she's not aware of the same things we are, instead she's tied into a mistaken perception which informs how she acts.

Her emotional state at feeling that Shepard has betrayed her and the relationship they shared, added into what on the face of it appears to be confirmation of the rumours she's heard can only allow her come to one conclussion, that Shepard for whatever reasons has changed or is finally showing his true colours.

Continually though you ignore the facts as Ash see's them and instead expect her to act in a manner that makes no sense whatsoever.

You expect her to dismiss everything, clear her mind and offer total trust and loyalty to someone she hasn't seen for 2 years. In an earlier post i presented a scenario of a soldier presumed dead and returning 2 years later working with terrorists, i explained that there is no reasonable way to expect that his fellow soldiers would simply accept his explanation and follow his lead.

To do so based on an understanding of who he used to be and what he used to stand for would be throwing caution to the wind based on an unknown.

Could Shepard have always been working with cerberus, been a sleeper agent all this time, could he have been brainwashed or mistaken about cerberus's being the only option, to me any of these are reasonable conclussions to make if your not aware of exactly what Shepard's gone through for the past 2 years.

Which given the nature of the info she has available to her and given the questions she herself asks its clear that Ash is not aware of Shepards past 2 years.

Yet you still expect her to ignore everything, follow Shepard, be loyal and trust him, when his own responses don't actually inspire that loyalty.

I believe your letting your knowledge of the facts cloud your assessment of Ash's actions, your basically coming from a position where you know things that prove you right and ignoring the simple fact that Ash doesn't share this knowledge.

Basically because you know she's wrong rather than think why that is, you instead treat the situation as a willing betrayal of Shepard, to me its more complex than that.

In the end it amounts to the same thing, Ash betrays Shepard on horizon, but i can understand and reason why she did so, you imo cannot and can only see the betrayal itself.

Your questions of how you can trust her anymore, how you can rely on her to me prove this point completely.

You accept Ash's betrayal almost as if it occured in a vacuum, as if it was a willing stab in the back of Shepard, where Ash analysed all the info you have as if she had it herself and then still stabbed Shepard in the back.

The simple truth is, there are genuine reasons why Ash acts how she does on horizon, her emotional state, her knowledge of the info and Shepards inane responses all force the betrayal to occur.

If she had the complete info at her disposal, if she knew the exact nature of what Shepard had gone through, if Shepard had explained himself correctly and then she still betrayed him then you would be correct in your assessment of horizon, the problem is though none of the above actually occurs does it.

You say that everything rests on Shepard's shoulders, that the matter of his love life is less important than what Shepard must face so instead of concentrating on that Shepard must concentrate on the threat posed by the reapers.

While this is true, it misses out on one simple fact, we are humans not machines, its love and other emotions which guide us in almost everything we do.

Not to mention the simple fact of just exactly what it is you do once leaving horizon, do you immediately go off to stop the collectors or do you instead wrap up the emotional problems of your entire crew?

Yes Shepard has important work to do, but he takes time to reunite Miranda with her sister, allow Jack get Closure, solve Jacob's daddy issues etc. all of these are emotion based problems.

If he can take time to fix strangers emotional issues but not time to fix the emotional issues of someone he supposedly cared about then what exactly does that say about Shepard himself.

You say its easier to just six Williams off your crew to just forget about that particular distraction and not expend the time and effort to resolve the situation.

Yet you could do that for any person you met in me2, you could tell Jack you have no time for her issues, tell miranda you care not a jot about her sister and jacob that his daddy was a rolling stone, wherever he left his hat was his home.

But you don't instead you help those people throught their own little emotional problems, simply because it in the end helps you accomplish your mission.

Yet in the case of Ash, someone who has already proved to you during me1 just how valuable an ally then can be, someone who unlike those others i've mentioned you supposedly care a great deal about, you think she's not worth the time and effort, that its not a worthy use of your time to try and understand why she acted how she did and to try and in someway rectify the situation yourself.

To me this shows not just double standards, but worse pigheadedness, you feel wronged so rather than try to figure out why that is, instead your willing to completely disregard the person who wronged you.

Thats an emotional response, feelings been hurt leading to a blanking of the person who hurt those feelings, considering you refuse to accept that Ash too felt that way on horizon, i'd like to introduce you to my friend Irony, you and he have a lot in common.

[Complistic]

Ashley threads always seem to get the most attention. I wonder why that is...

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

...*places head in hands*

For the love of god get some ME3 information please. Just...please. I have already told you several times all the races are under attack. Many races have already been huskified. The turians have no reason to believe the Reapers aren't after them too considering the reapers blew up the turian homeplanet to the extent that the military evacuated to their moon. 

Especially considering *drumroll* the Reapers are known for wiping out the Protheans completely. 

The Turians have the strongest military. Their entire race is regimented. It makes sense to destroy their planet and eliminate the best potenial human ally. They haven't destroyed the Salarian homeworld. We see it in the demo gameplay. Turians are aware of their military might. They take pride in it. They could believe that's why Reapers have hit them harder than any other alien race. The Turians could easily believe the Reapers just don't want them helping humans and they will go to extreme lengths to make sure they don't.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[Nashiktal]

Um to be clear, the planet isn't destroyed. Razed yes, but its still very much intact.

[Iakus]

[quote]knightnblu wrote...
Again, she would have had to ignore the evidence right before her eyes, disregard what she knew about Shepard, and jettisoned any and all trust of the man in response. Which is exactly what she did and why those things total a betrayal on personal and professional levels. In short, all trust is gone.[/quote]

What's before here eyes is Shepard.Shepard was declared dead.  Ash was there when the Normandy was destroyed.  But there were rumors that Shepard wasn't dead, and was working with Cerberus.  And now here's Shepard, back like nothing happened!  How?

Now Shepard is fighting (or perhaps "fighting") the Collectors and drove them off.  But at this point, Can Ash be sure this wasn't a setup for her benefit?  Maybe for Shepard's benefit as well, if he's simply a dupe.  Ash should have inquired more, no doubt about that.  Shep was a potential gold mine of information.  But at the same time, can she trust what he says?  Can she trust what she's seeing.  The smartest thing she did was independantly verify Shep's claims.
 
[quote]
I would have said a Greek tragedy, but alright. [/quote]

Na, as far as we know Shep and Ash aren't related.

[/quote]

[Nashiktal]

[quote]iakus wrote...

[quote]knightnblu wrote...
Again, she would have had to ignore the evidence right before her eyes, disregard what she knew about Shepard, and jettisoned any and all trust of the man in response. Which is exactly what she did and why those things total a betrayal on personal and professional levels. In short, all trust is gone.[/quote]

What's before here eyes is Shepard.Shepard was declared dead.  Ash was there when the Normandy was destroyed.  But there were rumors that Shepard wasn't dead, and was working with Cerberus.  And now here's Shepard, back like nothing happened!  How?

Now Shepard is fighting (or perhaps "fighting") the Collectors and drove them off.  But at this point, Can Ash be sure this wasn't a setup for her benefit?  Maybe for Shepard's benefit as well, if he's simply a dupe.  Ash should have inquired more, no doubt about that.  Shep was a potential gold mine of information.  But at the same time, can she trust what he says?  Can she trust what she's seeing.  The smartest thing she did was independantly verify Shep's claims.
 
[quote]
I would have said a Greek tragedy, but alright. [/quote]

Na, as far as we know Shep and Ash aren't related.

[/quote]
[/quote]

Oh snap!

[YouthCultureForever]

Nashiktal wrote...

Um to be clear, the planet isn't destroyed. Razed yes, but its still very much intact.

Destroy, raze, blow up. I think you get what I mean. You get what I mean right? Do I need to clarify my position better?

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:22 .

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...



The Turians have the strongest military. Their entire race is regimented. It makes sense to destroy their planet and eliminate the best potenial human ally. They haven't destroyed the Salarian homeworld. We see it in the demo gameplay. Turians are aware of their military might. They take pride in it. They could believe that's why Reapers have hit them harder than any other alien race. The Turians could easily believe the Reapers just don't want them helping humans and they will go to extreme lengths to make sure they don't.

...the mind boggles. 

You know what. Forget it. This is going nowhere. 

Nashiktal wrote...

Um to be clear, the planet isn't destroyed. Razed yes, but its still very much intact.

True. But it's bad enough to cause them to flee is my drift. 

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

...the mind boggles. 

You know what. Forget it. This is going nowhere. 

And what's the problem this time?

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...the mind boggles. 

You know what. Forget it. This is going nowhere. 

And what's the problem this time?

If you can't figure it out. There's no use in me explaining.