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[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...the mind boggles. 

You know what. Forget it. This is going nowhere. 

And what's the problem this time?

If you can't figure it out. There's no use in me explaining. 

No, explain away. Explain you're position. I want to hear it. What do you think is so faulty with my arguement.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...the mind boggles. 

You know what. Forget it. This is going nowhere. 

And what's the problem this time?

If you can't figure it out. There's no use in me explaining. 

No, explain away. Explain you're position. I want to hear it.

Your arguement relies on the turians and other aliens being morons is what's wrong. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

You seem to be under the impression that the Reapers are somehow only acting extremly aggressive towards humans. That's not the case. There is no "they'll leave us alone." or "they're only attacking Earth." or even "they're only making body horrors out of humans." The Reapers are a "myth" that eradicated all the Protheans down to the last child. No one with sense is gonna actually believe the Reapers are gonna leave them alone. Especially not after they see Asari, Krogan and Rachni Husks along with indoctrinated Salarians and other alien species. There is no proof that they only want to kill the humans. 

You're assuming that other races believe the Protheans were eradicated by Reapers. That was the latest of many theories on Prothean extinction and it's the most preposterous sounding of them all. The storied Council races wouldn't abandon theories they've had for centuries for some human mumbo jumbo about Reapers. They would wonder why no one else has proposed that theory sinces it's so significant.  The Reaper threat could solely be a recent human construct and problem.

They only want to harvest humans. Being attacked and being harvested are two different things. And so what if the Reapers create a little mayhem, use some of the aliens as tools against humans to make them more pliable for harvesting and to keep non-humans scattered so they can't form a resistance. Whole alien races aren't being wiped out.

I could see other species using that line of thinking. You have to see this from a different perspective.

EDIT: Why'd you erase your post?

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:05 .

[Ryzaki]

...and that is why I give up.

Yes why of course the other aliens are gonna be stupid enough to assume that the Reapers only want humans that's totally why they're attacking humanities enemies [or close enough to it] (oh hai there Batarians and potentially turians) if you sacrificed the council) or neutrals (oh hai there random species X, oh hai there Geth or hai there Krogan) who wouldn't side with humans. That's why they're mindraping as many organics as possible (and some geth!) and making them tell them everything about the species and attacking even species that would be useless in a fight against them "Oh hai there drell and hanar." and that even after they're on the run the Reapers continue attacking them. That's why some of the STG and Krogan are indoctrinated and are betraying their own people. Because the Reapers only want to harvest humanity. Yes and let's also ignore the guy who told us they were coming about why they were coming and about the other species he saw them kill. Yeah they're only gonna harvest the humans and then all go home.That's totally logical. That makes loads of sense. It's not like the last time something weird happened all sufficently advanced organics mysteriously vanished or that a *turian* spectre who was widely known for disliking humanity joined the Reapers in hopes that organics would be spared...oh wait. 

As for alien races not being wiped out. It took the least Reaping several decades to finish (and this is when they were able to use the Citadel Relay). Of course it's not gonna happen instantly. 

If you really can't see what's wrong with that there's nothing left to say because we are obviously on two different trains.  

NVM. 

Anyways myShep finds Ash as untrustworthy (same with Kaidan). Would be happy if there's a GTFOMS option. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 01:52 .

[Iakus]

All very interesting, but what does this have to do with whether Shepard can trust Ash or not?

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

...and that is why I give up.

Yes why of course the other aliens are gonna be stupid enough to assume that the Reapers only want humans that's totally why they're attacking humanities enemies (oh hai there Batarians) or neutrals (oh hai there random species X, oh hai there Geth or hai there Krogan) who wouldn't side with humans. That's why they're mindraping as many organics as possible (and some geth!) and making them tell them everything about the species and attacking even species that would be useless in a fight against them "Oh hai there drell and hanar." and that even after they're on the run the Reapers continue attacking them. Yes and let's also ignore the guy who told us they were coming about why they were coming and about the other species he saw them kill. That's totally logical. That makes loads of sense. 

Really it makes as much sense as being in a room with an armed gunman and just because he only shot you in the leg *obviously* he's not planning on killing you too! He shot the guy in blue first! 

If you really can't see what's wrong with that there's nothing left to say. 

The Reapers are using aliens (Batarians, Asari etc) to make ultimo tools to use against humans. They have to "mindrape" species to get anything useful out of them to use to their advantage. They're making use of all resouces and elminating potential allies to ensure victory against humanity. The Drell have nothing to lose by trying to help so you have to axe them. And for the other races you have to do something about them so they don't try to coordinate attacks.

You can't look at this from one POV.

[YouthCultureForever]

iakus wrote...

All very interesting, but what does this have to do with whether Shepard can trust Ash or not?

I can only argue with you guys if you respond to my posts.

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote..
The Reapers are using aliens (Batarians, Asari etc) to make ultimo tools to use against humans. They have to "mindrape" species to get anything useful out of them to use to their advantage. They're making use of all resouces and elminating potential allies to ensure victory against humanity. The Drell have nothing to lose by trying to help so you have to axe them. And for the other races you have to do something about them so they don't try to coordinate attacks.

You can't look at this from one POV.

Humans are being made into husks as well. There's absolutely no reason for the aliens to think humanity is getting any special treatement. None. 

There is no "oh they must be using our troops against humanity." leg to stand on. The Reapers are attacking everywhere. They are killing by the droves. They are killing humans by the droves (those that try to run away as evidence from Earth Trailer 2 Million dead in the first day, 7 million by the end of the first week). They are killing everyone. They are sending indoctrinated Cerberus troops (and indoctrinated whatever they have) everywhere. There is no reason not to think everyone is under attack. And there's no reason unless they were with Shepard in ME2 to think that humanity is being harvested. As far as they can se everyone's being killed/turned into monsters. Regardless of species. 

Your POV is made of half-metagaming. If the turians are aware the Reapers want to harvest humans to make Baby Reaper (something only TIM and Shepard & co know) they would be aware that the rest of them will end up Collector fodder. (something only TIM and Shepard & co know). Not to mention (possibly if not recruited/spared) an Asari justicar (Samara), an STG special agent who is highly thought of (Mordin), a Krogan leader (Wrex), a ex-cop (Garrus), a well renowned Quarian (Tali), several alliance officers (Joker, Chakwas, Shepard), a Drell Assassin (Thane) are all willing to vie for that. Mordin, Tali and Samara alone should be enough to get Shepard taken seriously by their respective alien species. As far as the turians are concerned the Collectors were harvesting human colonies...because they wanted to. They weren't connected to the Reapers. There was no evidence (outside of what Shepard & Co saw) connecting the two. 

So as far as the turians are concerned giant starships (that SHepard had been ranting about since ME1) show up and start reaming everyone. Why on earth wouldn't they work together? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

Humans are being made into husks as well. There's absolutely no reason for the aliens to think humanity is getting any special treatement. None. 

Some humans are being made into husks. The Reapers need at least one tool to make it hard for humans to organize during the initial attack. So they lose a few million humans to scatter the masses. It's a good trade off.

They do have the Batarian cannibals but they probably don't have enough of them in the initial attack if they've just started attacking everyone at once.

[Ryzaki]

YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Humans are being made into husks as well. There's absolutely no reason for the aliens to think humanity is getting any special treatement. None. 

Some humans are being made into husks. The Reapers need at least one tool to make it hard for humans to organize during the initial attack. So they lose a few million humans to scatter the masses. It's a good trade off.

They do have the Batarian cannibals but they probably don't have enough of them in the initial attack if they've just started attacking everyone at once.

And some turians are being made into husks. And some *insert alien species here* are being made into husks. So no they still have Zero reason to think humanity is getting special treatement. Especially considering communication with Earth is probably cut off or at the least severely restricted. They're being attacked by their own people that have been huskified just like humans are. 

The turians have no way of knowing how many Batarian cannibals are on Earth. They just know they probably see some  images (if the images even get out before communications are possibly cut) of something that looks like a mutilated Batarian and swarms of husks with them. Then they probably get their own people being huskified and put two and two together. The only reason they have to believe humans are being harvested is if they believe Shepard's story. In which case they'd know they have no hope of being spared from the Reapers.   

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[YouthCultureForever]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

There is no "oh they must be using our troops against humanity." leg to stand on. The Reapers are attacking everywhere. They are killing by the droves. They are killing humans by the droves (those that try to run away as evidence from Earth Trailer 2 Million dead in the first day, 7 million by the end of the first week). They are killing everyone. They are sending indoctrinated Cerberus troops (and indoctrinated whatever they have) everywhere. There is no reason not to think everyone is under attack. And there's no reason unless they were with Shepard in ME2 to think that humanity is being harvested. As far as they can se everyone's being killed/turned into monsters. Regardless of species. [/quote]

But humans are special, they're being harvested. No one else is.


[quote]Your POV is made of half-metagaming. If the turians are aware the Reapers want to harvest humans to make Baby Reaper (something only TIM and Shepard & co know) they would be aware that the rest of them will end up Collector fodder. (something only TIM and Shepard & co know). Not to mention (possibly if not recruited/spared) an Asari justicar (Samara), an STG special agent who is highly thought of (Mordin), a Krogan leader (Wrex), a ex-cop (Garrus), a well renowned Quarian (Tali), several alliance officers (Joker, Chakwas, Shepard), a Drell Assassin (Thane) are all willing to vie for that. Mordin, Tali and Samara alone should be enough to get Shepard taken seriously by their respective alien species. As far as the turians are concerned the Collectors were harvesting human colonies...because they wanted to. They weren't connected to the Reapers. There was no evidence (outside of what Shepard & Co saw) connecting the two. [/quote]

Where is it said the Turians are aware of the Reaper reproductive process? They know humans are being taken. For what purpose who knows.

I use the term harvesting when I'm trying to distinguish between actions in my posts to make it easier for a reader to understand what I mean. The reader will understand, I'm not suggesting the Turians know about harvesting.

I'm not metagaming. I'm putting it in perspective. And just because one member of a race believes something doesn't mean they can convince their entire race to believe it. The Quarians are willing to put Tali on the chopping block in ME2 and Garrus considers himself a bad Turian. Most Asari are weary of Justicars because they kill at the command of their code, Mordin could be seen as a washed up doctor working on Omega of all places. Thane is irrelevant because he's an assassin. He's has no promince, it wouldn't make him a good assassin.

I'm not sure what you're trying to express in the last two sentences. Clarify please.
[/quote]

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[Ryzaki]

*sighs*

Your POV is made of metagaming because the turians have no way of knowing humans are being harvested. Full stop. Even if harvesting just means killed uh...the Reapers are doing that to everyone so...again no reason to believe humans are special.

My POV is made of them listening to Shepard and knowing why and how the humans are being harvested. Thus no metagaming.

I'm trying to explain that without Shepard's knowledge (which they have no way of getting without Shep/TIM) they cannot believe humans are being harvested.

[Ryzaki]

The collectors and Reapers have no connection unless you're using Shepard's intel. Which the turians in your scenario are not using. Only Shepard & Co (And TIM) know that the Collectors were the Protheans and were slaves of the Reapers. As far as the turians are concerned the Collectors was simply an unusual raid on humanity. For what purpose? No one that's outside Shep's intel circle knows. (Other than Cerberus obviously).

Though you're right about the invidiuals not automatically being trusted. It's far more valid than a "oh I hope they leave us alone even though they're not!" theory.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:43 .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...


[quote]And some turians are being made into husks. And some *insert alien species here* are being made into husks. So no they still have Zero reason to think humanity is getting special treatement. Especially considering communication with Earth is probably cut off or at the least severely restricted. They're being attacked by their own people that have been huskified just like humans are. [/quote]
Communication with Earth may be restricted but not communication with the Alliance. Again, everyone is being scattered so they can't coordinate attacks whether their planet is under fire or they're being terrorized by husks.
[/quote]

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:42 .

[Ryzaki]

[quote]YouthCultureForever wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


[quote]And some turians are being made into husks. And some *insert alien species here* are being made into husks. So no they still have Zero reason to think humanity is getting special treatement. Especially considering communication with Earth is probably cut off or at the least severely restricted. They're being attacked by their own people that have been huskified just like humans are. [/quote]
Communication with Earth may be restricted but not communication with the Alliance. Again, everyone is being scattered so they can't coordinate attacks whether their planet is under fire or they're being terrorized by husks.
[/quote][/quote]

And that means humans are being treated differently how exactly? Because according to Mordin in one of the demos the Salarians are going through the exact same thing .

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

The collectors and Reapers have no connection unless you're using Shepard's intel. Which the turians in your scenario are not using. Only Shepard & Co (And TIM) know that the Collectors were the Protheans and were slaves of the Reapers. As far as the turians are concerned the Collectors was simply an unusual raid on humanity. For what purpose? No one that's outside Shep's intel circle knows. (Other than Cerberus obviously).

Though you're right about the invidiuals not automatically being trusted. It's far more valid than a "oh I hope they leave us alone even though they're not!" theory.  

They know humans are being taken. For what purpose who knows.

I use the term harvesting when I'm trying to distinguish between actions in my posts to make it easier for a reader to understand what I mean. I'm not suggesting the Turians know about harvesting.

EDIT: And I'm not suggesting the Alliance knows and can tell them either. A few in the Alliance believe in harvesting but most just recognize humanity is being taken.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Uh...no no they don't. 

Not according to Big Ben. Only thing they know is they're being attacked. "we don't know what they are or what they want."

Only a few people in the upper branches know what the hell is going on because they got Shepard intel and other intel to go with that. (which I would assume would also hold true for the other races as well). And if the Turians bother listening to them once again they'll come to the conclusion that Reaprs = Kill everything.

So the only thing the turians can know on their own is that the Collectors were kidnapping humans enmasse for...some reason and that the Reapers are beating the crap out of Earth like every other alien homeplanet.

Once again Reapers =/= collectors. The only ones aware of the link are Shepard, those Shepard told, and Cerberus.

Collectors were the ones taking humans. (for what purpose only those with Shep's/Cerberus' intel know.) 

Reapers are the ones killing them. 

The alliance intel is scattered, there's chaos.

Not to mention the Reapers maybe gathering humans (to melt them into grey paste which is still killing them) . They also arelikely to gather other species (if in lesser quantinties) to indoctrinate them.

That said I feel we've derailed this poor topic enough.

Anyways. Ashley is gonna have to get used to my one Ash mance Sheps coddling with Tali/Miranda.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 03:40 .

[knightnblu]

alperez - No apology is necessary, but I thank you anyway for your consideration. Allow me to say that your arguments have softened my stance toward Williams' character somewhat, but I still hold that she could have had more faith, rather than to have abandoned Shepard.
 
Had our positions been reversed, I would have. I once faced a similar situation as Williams in RL. There was a friend that I served with who's character I was certain of because we had known and served with each other for many years. The situation was nowhere near as extreme as what was presented on Horizon, just similar in context.
 
Criminal charges were being considered against him for his perceived errors, but I knew that he was innocent. I didn't have any evidence to the contrary and what miniscule evidence there was pointed to him, but the source was questionable. The brass decided that he had to go, if only to preserve appearances. I stood by that man and staked my career on what I knew in my gut. I was proven right. My friend's near miss shook him and he took early retirement.
 
Would I had done that if I had only a vague idea of that man's character? No way in hell, but such conviction only comes from a sure knowledge of a person's character. I had seen that man in times of severe stress and in good times as well and his character had never wavered. He relocated and we have drifted apart over the years, but if I met him again tomorrow, I would know his character still and it has been many years since last we met.
 
Am I wrong to overlay my experience on Williams? Frankly, I don't know. Perhaps I am atypical, but there are damned few people outside of my family that I have said that I loved. To me, love implies a bond that is stronger than steel. But folks use that word casually today without its intended commitment. A commitment that engenders a profound trust between two people. A trust that is nigh indestructible unless one of the two parties breaches it in some way. Again, is it fair to overlay this on Williams?
 
You know as well as I that the fires of combat can forge mighty bonds between people. You also know that it is those bonds that hold a unit together as they fight side by side on the field of battle and that men do not fight out of love of country, but for the love of their fellows fighting with them. Ashley and Shepard most certainly had that bond. Add in the bond of personal friendship and the trust that blossoms and grows into love and you have a second strong bond. When Shepard and Williams become sexual in an expression of the second bond, you have established a third powerful bond. With each bond comes a high level of trust deepening these connections. That is a potent combination of ties and emotions.
 
Yet, Williams seems to overcome those bonds so easily. Compare that to Anderson. He was Shepard's CO and friend. While it is certainly true that he does not have the same level of trust in Shepard that he had in ME1, he nevertheless knows Shepard's character and doesn't cut him loose because of it. While one could say that Anderson hedges his bets, I think that the truth is that his position demands that he take precautions until he can verify Shepard's loyalty. That is reasonable.
 
Where Williams is concerned, she doesn't follow Anderson's path. She abandon's him right there on Horizon and violates the three bonds that she has with him in the process. Why? Because of rumors, allegations, his association with Cerberus, and her perception that Shepard ignored her. But is that reasonable?
 
I guess that the answer to that is: How well does she really know Shepard? I would surmise that those three bonds make it a near certainty that she knows him better than Anderson. She would know his temperament, his values, his character. Character is a very important word. Admiral Stockdale once said that character isn't taught in the public education system any longer. He made that remark when he was speaking about how his personal character helped him to survive his imprisonment with the Vietnamese during the war as a POW. He had been tortured many times and it was only his character that kept him going.
 
Many people today discount character and do not seek to develop it, but it has been my experience that most in the military represent the few remaining repositories of it. Oh sure, there are examples of character outside of the military, but they are few and far between. In the service, such people are concentrated because they share the same values and ideals. People deride character as being no longer necessary and unimportant, but it is the only true measure of a man and his heart. Williams should have been on a first name basis with Shepard's character and he with hers. Therefore, it is from that perspective that I speak.
 
Emotions were swirling in both of them. Anxiety, excitement, anger, and fear were Ashley's contribution. Shepard had his own demons. One almost gets the idea that Shepard has butterflies in his stomach when he first sees her. Didn't turn out the way he expected it would.
 
The only steadying factor they both held in common was their knowledge and trust of each other. In my mind, Ashley had everything she needed to steady her amongst her flurry of emotions and the doubt provided by half truths, lies, and assumptions. But she didn't listen to her gut. She went with her head and it was that denial of her intuition that breached the common trust.
 
Here in the West we tend to look at the world as something to be controlled and dominated. It is a very mechanistic view. But intuition, or our gut if you would prefer, also has a powerful place in this world. It often warns us of danger, the veracity of others, and tells us when we are being cheated. All we need to do is to listen to it. Having combat experience, you know exactly what I am talking about. It's that sense that tells you that something isn't right, but you can't quite put your finger on exactly what that something is and that strange feeling ends up saving your life. All combat soldiers have that sense to some extent.
 
Ashley ignores her gut and focuses solely on her head and her emotions blinding her to the truth. She shuts Shepard and his explanations off and proceeds down a path toward abandonment. It is only when she begins down that path does she call Shepard a traitor. Had Shepard been a renegade, I might be inclined to see it her way. But a paragon Shepard with a full paragon score? It doesn't add up.
 
I suppose that it would be safe to say that I expected more from her. I never expected her to abandon her duties and join up, I never expected her to not be dubious, but I also never expected her to breach the trust between us either. I half expected her to take Anderson's path, but she fooled me. She went one step further and cut the ties.
 
In the real world, who cares? It is only a game after all. But in the context of the game, that is huge (at least from a role playing perspective). Why would she take that one, last step? What could prompt her to do that? Because she believed what she knew in her gut to be false. True, her head didn't know anything, but what she perceived. Process all of that out and it spells traitor (assuming of course you ignore certain things as you walk up to Shepard on Horizon, but we'll just chalk that up to emotion).
 
Anderson didn't feel the need to take it that far because he knew Shepard's character. Williams ignores Shepard's character. Anderson preserves their personal ties, Williams abandons them, Anderson has a great responsibility as the human Councilor, Williams is charged with investigating Cerberus in relation to the missing colonies. The two positions are quite similar factoring out the intimacy between Shepard and Williams.
 
While you are certainly right that I had to deal with a multitude of "daddy" issues and personal problems before taking out the Collector base, there were two overriding factors. First, I had to have their loyalty. Loyalty equates to trust and trust cements a combat team. Second, the galaxy wasn't of fire.
 
I will give Williams one chance to fix Horizon, but I won't hold my breath. I have always said that. Trust, once broken is a b!tch to win back. Honestly, I don't think that the writers have it in them. But there are no guarantees that even those who have forgiven her will be able to get her back. Williams is not Liara.

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh...no no they don't. 

Not according to Big Ben. Only thing they know is they're being attacked. "we don't know what they are or what they want."

Only a few people in the upper branches know what the hell is going on because they got Shepard intel and other intel to go with that. (which I would assume would also hold true for the other races as well). And if the Turians bother listening to them once again they'll come to the conclusion that Reaprs = Kill everything.

We don't even know if the Big Ben is an Alliance soldier. And he doesn't say 'We don't know..." He just says, "Don't know what they are, what they want or where they came from. Only one thing is certain: If Shepard doesn't bring help soon..." There is a difference. Starting his sentence with only, "Don't know what they are..." implies he doesn't know what they are not, We don't know what they are. The Big Ben sniper, insignificant British soldier, doesn't know what's really going on. All he knows he's being attacked by alien ships and that big time Alliance space marine Commander Shepard is coming to stop the alien invasion.

It's not a fluke the Reapers are hitting Earth in force. They want humanity to reproduce. We learn that's what they're doing in ME2. Shepard has to take forces back to Earth with him to fight them off. Alliance high command will tell the rest of the Allinace humanity is being "taken" (they know its harvesting, but they probably don't have time to explain what that is and how they know it. It's above what anyone needs to know. They just need to recognize humans are being taken.) The Alliance tells the Turians their people are being taken in hordes the Turians would recognize that while some of their people are being turned into husks and taken, they aren't being taken in droves. 

So the only thing the turians can know on their own is that the Collectors were kidnapping humans enmasse for...some reason and that the Reapers are beating the crap out of Earth like every other alien homeplanet.

Once again Reapers =/= collectors. The only ones aware of the link are Shepard, those Shepard told, and Cerberus.

Collectors were the ones taking humans. (for what purpose only those with Shep's/Cerberus' intel know.) 

Reapers are the ones killing them.

You have to recognize that the Reapers aren't just killing humans. They're taking them. Shepard knows why the bulk of their forces are on Earth so the Alliance knows why and the Alliance tells the other races.

Not to mention the Reapers maybe gathering humans (to melt them into grey paste which is still killing them) . They also arelikely to gather other species (if in lesser quantinties) to indoctrinate them.

Yes, humans are being abducted in droves for harvesting, its not the same as outright attakcing other species.Those deaths aren't equal in motive. Humans are special.

That said I feel we've derailed this poor topic enough.

Anyways. Ashley is gonna have to get used to my one Ash mance Sheps coddling with Tali/Miranda.

Love can't survive one falling out?

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[knightnblu]

YouthCultureForever said "Love can't survive one falling out?
 
 
Just throwing it out there, but maybe it just wasn't meant to be.

[Ryzaki]

You know what Youth? You keep thinking that. It's incresingly apparent you didn't bother reading up on even brief ME3 news and for some mindboggling reason think that Earth is the only place being badly hit. 

I'm just gonna play ME3 where the turians have common sense and realize the Reapers are attacking everywhere and not just Earth. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[Ryzaki]

knightnblu wrote...

YouthCultureForever said "Love can't survive one falling out?
 
 
Just throwing it out there, but maybe it just wasn't meant to be.

This. 

And sorry but  don't find believing some rumors over me to be a "slight falling out." especially not when those rumors involve me being a terrorist scumbag. 

[YouthCultureForever]

Ryzaki wrote...

You know what Youth? You keep thinking that. It's incresingly apparent you didn't bother reading up on even brief ME3 news and for some mindboggling reason think that Earth is the only place being badly hit. 

I'm just gonna play ME3 where the turians have common sense and realize the Reapers are attacking everywhere and not just Earth. 

I did go to that link and I checked out ME3 condensed on youtube. I will say I didn't initially know other worlds were being hit but now I just don't see why other races would go out of their way to help if they have their own immediate problems. Especially if they think it's your fault in the first place.They sound like they need all of the troops they can get. I can see certainly see them coming up with every excuse in the book to stay out the Reaper line of fire. They are attacking everyone but humans are the ones being harvested. You can't look at it from your perspective. You'd be surprised at what people will do. It's just a suspicion, I'm not trying to set fire to your ME Bible. You don't think, "THE REAPERS ARE DESTROYING EVERYONE" could be a simplification of the premise? A device to give us some spolier free information?

And concerning Ashley, if you can't work it out after one arguement, your first arguement, then I suppose it wasn't love to begin with.

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:51 .

[alperez]

knightnblu

I'm glad to see your stance has at least softened, which is basically all i've attempted to do.

I agree Ash should have had more faith in Shepard, she should have known he was not someone who would turn his back on people he cared about or on the things he believed in, however i can see the reasons why that is.

When you analyze horizon though part of the problem is that as i've said we the player come from a position where our knowledge and understanding of events and of the past 2 years are different than Ash's is, we as Shepard feel wronged by her actions because of that understanding and knowledge, but its that knowledge and understanding that clouds how we analyse Ash on horizon.

If however you forget for a second that your Shepard in the situation and instead play it from Ash's perspective things aren't as clear cut as they originally appear.

2 years ago Ash lost someone very important to her either romantically or simply from a professional standpoint.

During those 2 years she's grieved, suffered through that loss and has finally come to a position where while it still affected her deeply she can at least move on with her life.

But what happens, she begins to hear rumours that Shepard is alive and working with/for cerberus for some unknown reason, like most people she more than likely dismissed those rumours, put them out of her mind as idle gossip.

On horizon though Shepard returns from the dead and with cerberus in tow, something which when added to the rumours would seem to be clear evidence that the rumours were in fact true.

Not knowing the ins and outs of what Shepard has actually gone through, rationally the only conclussion Ash could come to is that Shepard didn't die on the normandy, that he perhaps faked his death and is working with cerberus either by choice or because they've duped or brainwashed him somehow, that either the man she thought she knew had changed or perhaps never existed at all.

Once you've reached that point, the questions you would have in your own mind take over, why did he let me believe he was dead, why did he let me go through this, why didn't he contact me and finally does all this mean that he never cared about me as much as i did him.

Ash begins to ask these questions, but unfortunately even before they can be answered properly (not that shepard does a good job anyway) shepard brings up the elephant in the room, cerberus.

At this point everything comes to a head, Ash already feeling like she's been abandoned by Shepard during the past 2 years is now faced with what appears to be Shepard also abandoning the principles they both shared.

To Ash this is not just a betrayal of her personally but of the goals she thought shepard represented, from this point Ash pretty much behaves in the manner you yourself as Shepard are condoning. she treats Shepard as someone she can no longer trust or rely on.

When you look at the situation from simply Ash's perspective imo her actions are justified, if you look at the situation from Shepards her actions aren't, the problem is that each perspective is right on its own and only wrong when both are known to everyone involved.

We as the player see this and its the knowledge that Shepard isn't wrong that skews our view on Horizon, so in order to judge Ash imo you must forget most of the info you as Shepard have and instead put yourself firmly in Ash's shoes, then at least you could understand why she does what she does and why although she shares some blame for Horizon, the blame is not just hers alone.

You mention a situation above as a parellel and in some ways it is, however there are some ways it differs which may have made the situation different.

1. the gap between your last meeting this person and the event was it 2 years?

2. Was the person presumed dead, had rumours spread about them that they were alive and working with someone you considered the enemy, only to reappear alive and well and working with those very people.

3. the relationship you had with this person, was it romantic, did you believe they loved you and you loved them, then they disappeared for 2 years with no contact only to reappear in the event you describe.

Horizon represents 2 problems, one its written in a way which romanced or non romanced Ash has pretty much the same lines, the betrayal she feels if non romanced is not as definitive as it is if you romanced her, on a romanced playthrought the betrayal she feels goes straight to her very core, its the betrayal of a scorned lover who realises that the man she loved may not have loved her at all.

For a non romanced Ash the betrayal is slightly different, but unfortunately the lines she has are pretty much the same, in trying to expend as little effort as possible Bioware don't get the points across as much in a non romanced playthrough as they do in a romanced one.

Secondly, its the gap, the 2 years that have passed since Shepard and Ash were last together, these 2 years just don't come across as a genuine gap, simply because to us playing as Shepard its not been a significant amount of time since we last saw Ash.

We died, were ressurrected, rebuilt and to us its almost as if no time has passed between the events on the normandy and the meeting on horizon, to Ash its been 2 years, but its hard for us as Shepard to really relate to this fact.

Its because of this that Ash's betrayal seems almost immediate to us, it appears as if it was just yesterday that she fought by our side, when in fact to Ash it was 2 years ago.

Like i've said from the beginning to me Horizon is a complex problem, we have a gut reaction to it simply based on our perception of Shepards position, most people would react exactly the same as you do when faced with that gut reaction, i did, i felt pissed and annoyed at Ash at first, like Shepard i couldn't wait to get the hell off that rock and forget about her (and this coming from someone who considers Ash their canon romance).

Later when i got the e-mail i softened my stance and since then i've gone back and reevaluated the encounter numerous times until finally i reached a point where i could understand why she acts that way.

In the end Ash on Horizon for me is acting how i believe my Paragon Shepard should have acted simply on being forced to work with cerberus, she points out the flaws and idiocies that a paragon Shepard should have pointed out himself, she asks the questions that we as Shepard not only never get to ask, but don't even seem concerned with.

So i can understand her actions much better than i originally did and can forgive those actions much easier because of that understanding, rather than blame her completely i can see where Shepard was at fault and see its the situation rather than the indviduals in that situation that was messed up.

Once the situation itself is cleared up, then those individuals imo both need to apologise not just for the actions they took but how those actions were perceived by both of them.

[Almostfaceman]

Anderson: Well what did you learn on Horizon? Did you run into Shepard?
Williams: Yeah! And that jerk is a traitor poo poo head!
Anderson: That's sad to hear, so Cerberus really is behind the missing colonies?
Williams: No, Shepard was killing Collectors and...
Anderson: Wait, Shepard wasn't kidnapping or killing the colonists?
Williams: Well no he was defending them and he and his Cerberus stooges said it had to do something with the Reapers...
Anderson: So we have possible clues as to Reaper methodology? What did you learn?
Williams: Um, not much because I was just so angry and sad and disappointed! Why I put up with that...
Anderson: Let me get this straight, you talked to Shepard and you didn't ask him about how the Reapers are involved?
Williams: Well no because of those stinky Cerberus poo poo...
Anderson: Yeah I heard the poo poo part... did Shepard threaten you or try to abduct you or do anything like the Cerberus agents you ran into before?
Williams: Well no he...
Anderson: And he just saved the majority of the colony...
Williams: Yes but Cerberus...
Anderson: And he had intel he was willing to share with you that we don't currently have?
Williams: You don't understand the Cerberus logo is soooo cheesy...
Anderson: So did Shepard grill you for Alliance information? Did he act shifty? Was he doing anything suspicious, like making husks?
Williams: Well no all he did was save me and the other colonists that he could...
Anderson: Huh that sounds just like the Shepard that saved all our asses on the Citadel to me.
Williams: But Cerberus...
Anderson: Did you learn anything else?
Williams: No, why would I want to talk more with traitor stinky poo poo head Shepard...
Anderson: ... who just saved your life and thousands of others doing what he had to do to stop Reaper incursions. So let me get this straight, you a professional soldier who was sent to investigate the colony disappearances passed up a prime opportunity to get intel from the man who had just saved your life and has saved all of our lives in the past. Is he okay?
Williams: I don't know I didn't ask.