1035 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

alperez - The one thing that you miss in your analysis is Williams reaction to Shepard blowing the mass relay in the Viper system and killing 304+K civilians. Further, I am still not convinced that BioWare intends to continue the romance after Horizon despite the players objections. As I have said before, there is a lot of juice that can come from that option.
 
As for myself, I honestly don't know what to apologize for. I suppose that I could apologize for the bad writing, but that may be a bridge too far for them to include in the dialog options.

[alperez]

Knight

I discard completely the blowing of the mass relay because it doesn't actually factor in regarding horizon, i'm not sure what exactly it is you mean by this.

Firstly can you even do arrival pre horizon and if so does it Ash or Shepard even bring it up?

Secondly, if its not brought up at the time of Horizon by Ash or Shepard then what bearing does it actually have on the encounter?

If what your trying to say is how Ash would react then your introducing an unknown into the equation, your bringing in irrelevant details to how Ash and Shepard play out the encounter.

But lets play that game a little shall we, how would Ash react to Shepard blowing the mass relay, i'll go out on a limb and say she'll react exactly how hackett does, she'll understand it was an unavoidable action Shepard had to take.

Simply put in my mind Arrival always happens post Horizon, Ash e-mail apology shows that she's re-evaluated her position, it shows that where on Horizon she came into the encounter with limited info and understanding of Shepards actions and with a more emotional frame of mind, since then she's discovered relevant details that paint Shepard in a different light.

So wheras on Horizon there was a lack of trust or faith (because of how the situation plays out) since that point for Ash a lot of that trust and faith has been restored, so she'd be examining the situation from a completely different perspective.

The situation Ash and Shepard are in come me3 will be a vastly different one than they were in on horizon, then Ash had no time to proof Shepards position, later in me2 she has had time so it can be assumed come me3 that she'll be more aware of certain info than she was on Horizon.

Not to mention that we have the whole trial scenario to come where its possible shepard has had a chance to further explain his actions, add in the mere fact that he's no longer working with cerberus and a lot of the factors which cause the problem on Horizon would be missing from the beginning of me3.

In terms of whether or not Bioware are continuing the romance and the fact your not convinced that after Horizon they will, well i'm sorry to say if you believe that your completely and utterly mistaken.

Seriously you really belive that Bioware will not allow players to continue to romance a character they've already allowed them romance, you believe that they'll bring back Ash as a non romanceable option, really?

Not only will they allow romance continunity, but i pretty much gurantee that for a new player Ash will also be romanceable, simply because she's a guranteed member of your squad come me3.

Do you honestly believe after how fans of the VS reacted to their sidelining in me2, Bioware would bring them back only to make them non romancable, thats not just Naive, it shows a lack of understanding of Biowares standard formula.

In terms of you needing to apologise, i don't think i suggested you did, as for Bioware apologising for writing Horizon as badly as they did, methink that ship has sailed.

[knightnblu]

alperez
 
As far as the mass murder episode is concerned. I mentioned it partially tongue in cheek. My intent was to be facetious. Having failed that, allow me to be completely serious for a moment. First, while the Arrival DLC was intended to be played after Horizon and the apology was tendered, it was not strictly necessary that it be done that way. Second, if Williams doubted you on Horizon, and you freely admit that she did, then this may provide her grounds for doubting you again. In fact, I could use some of your own arguments to make a case for her doubting you again. Who knows, maybe it will be a deal breaker for her.
 
As far as not continuing the romance between Shepard and Ashley, such a move would open up new vistas to the writers. First, she could be a potential rival for command. Imagine, you give orders and leave the Normandy for a groundside mission expecting her to carry them out. When you return, she didn't follow your orders, chose a different path and arrived at a slightly better outcome. She feels pride in her accomplishment. How do you react? Did she help you or undermine your command? There is a natural tension between former lovers in a superior/subordinate role and this could be played for great effect as Williams finally coming into her own as a command figure.
 
Additionally, Ashley has been footloose and fancy free for two whole years. How do you know for certain that she hasn't found a replacement for you? Third, break ups happen in real life all of the time. Suppose that Ashley has been indexed so that you have two choices. Win her back or let her go and move on. In the winning her back phase you may have to undercut her current lover, but all is fair in love and war.
 
I take it that you would be unimpressed with that situation. Yet, I find it strange that BioWare has never specifically said that Ashley would be returning to your romance. Why is that I wonder? The have confirmed the romance with Liara. They have said that if you got busy with Tali, Miranda, or Jack it would continue, but to my knowledge they have never confirmed Ashley.
 
I find that odd.

[alperez]

Knight

I didn't get the tongue in cheek part, but no worries i get it now. One thing though as far as i'm aware even if you play Arrival before Horizon, it doesn't affect the dialog from Ash or Shepard either way, basically it works the same as with any other character in the game who apart from hackett don't react to Arrival as having taken place.

Anyway onto the question it brings up which is how would Ash react to Shepard blowing up the relay and would it create the same distrust and problems horizon did.

Again i have to say the situations are completely different, simply because of the exact nature of horizon itself.

The factors involved in how Ash reacts are specific to that time and place, its because of the 2 year gap, the nature of Shepards return and his working with cerberus allied to Ash''s own mindset at that particular time regarding Shepard and their relationship.

Later on you receive the e-mail, which clearly shows Ash has re-evaluated everything Shepard has told her and what Shepard's return actually means.

If anything the situation regarding how Ash would react is more of a truer test of the loyalty and trust you feel she lacks on horizon, simply because for Arrival Ash would be more aware of certain info and would also not be tied into A. a feeling that shepard never cared about her or their relationship and B. cerberus being as big a factor in why she distrusts that Shepard is doing what's best.

As i said the problem on Horizon is created because of a specific set of circumstances, post horizon these circumstances don't exist. Ash wouldn't be dealing with Shepard returning after 2 years of being presumed dead, she wouldn't be dealing with Shepard working with cerberus and being controlled by them.

On horizon with very little time to analyse the situation properly, ash is forced into making a judgement call based on not just incorrect or incomplete info but also with no corroboration of Shepards version of events from anyone she'd listen to, for Arrival things are completely different, so those obstacles i mentioned into why she acts how she does on horizon just wouldn't exist.

In terms of relationships and what Bioware said about them, they issued pretty much a blanket statement saying you could continue your romance if that person was alive in your playthrough, it stands to reason then they meant all romances and not just certain ones, perhaps you only saw confirmation of the one's you mentioned in the threads you visited, but i gurantee they meant all.

Secondly while the scenario you paint offers possibilities, it makes no sense they go that route, firstly creating a rival for Shepards command considering they didn't go that route with Miranda in me2 when there was more potential there, it makes no sense they'd go that route in me3 with Ash.

As for Ash moving on and finding someone else, again they didn't go that route with Liara, so why would they with Ash, its just not something they'll expand any effort in imo.

Two things have been almost completely consistent in mass effect, shepard's the main man, no one is allowed contradict his orders and no matter how much time has passed, Shepard's romances basically sit in a box and wait for him, there's been ample opportunity to introduce potential rivals for Shepard when it comes to romance, yet they haven't gone this route so far, i just can't see them going that route in me3.

In terms of winning back Ash's favours, LOSB showed just how hard that's going to be, a simple nod and wink from Shepard and Liara fell right back into his arms, i doubt it'll be any more difficult in terms of Ash.

[paul165]

>>In terms of winning back Ash's favours, LOSB showed just how hard that's going to be, a simple nod and wink from Shepard and Liara fell right back into his arms, i doubt it'll be any more difficult in terms of Ash.<<

The situations are hardly comparable though - Liara knew that you died and Cerberus brought you back; indeed she helped them do it! Liara doesn't particularily care about Cerberus - she has been willing to accept Cerberus help before it is unlikely she is suddenly going to object to you having done the same thing - in fact we know that she doesn't.

And last but far from least there was no Horizon for Liara she may have been cold on Ilium pre LotSB but she certainly understood what you were doing and why.

[alperez]

Paul

Yes there are differences in Liara's arc and Ash's and Ash's reaction on horizon seems to create even further complications, but imo it won't change the basic procedure Bioware will use in order to restore the relationship.

SImply put they'll do pretty much the same thing as they did with Liara, a nod and wink and that's it you'll be back together, if they were going to create a complex and difficult path in relation to winning back former lovers favors, then we would have seen some of this in LOSB, yet basically even if you start another romance during me2 when it comes to LOSB, how do you win back Liara's favors?

A simple conversation piece and all is forgiven.

In terms of Liara's reaction on Ilium compared to Ash's on horizon, your right Liara is just a bit cold, Ash is more hostile, i've explained the reasons why that's the case. But what happens later on once you get the e-mail from Ash also has to be taken into account when it comes to how Ash will later react.

The e-mail basically puts a lot of the wrongs on Horizon right, a lot of the barriers that caused such a big problem on Horizon, knowledge of what Shepard went through in the past 2 years, his reasons for working with cerberus and whether or not Shepard knows what he's doing and is doing it for the right reasons are resolved in the e-mail.

So you could basically say post e-mail Ash is now in the same position that Liara was, she may be a bit cold and distant because of events but the open hositility is missing, that's the point i was trying to get across.

[paul165]

An interesting view but I'm not sure its valid first because LotSB is DLC which would seem to limit somewhat how complicated they would wish to make it and second because Liara was always more forgiving of Shepard's more jerkass moments than Ash was. It's also worth noting that Liara's 'nod and a wink' included killing a Spectre as well as the SB itself to enable her to get over her massive case of guilt.

With the e-mail the first problem is that you only get it if you romanced her - if you didn't the argument on Horizon is the only contact you have with her where as even an unromanced Liara is willing to help you - obviously more with LotSB than without it but she provides support regardless of the nature of your relationship. The VS has a massive argument with Shepard and unless you sleep with them is perfectly happy to leave it at that.

It is also worth pointing out the ending of LotSB does change depending on your loyalty to Liara - she is still very tolerant but there are changes - I find it difficult to beleive the vastly less forgiving/introverted VS is willing to be as casual about it. Not least because Liara knew Shepard was coming back - she delievered the body to Operative Lawson the VS on the other hand didn't and so moved on Kaiden is dating and Ash describes herself as 'not being who she was back then'.

[alperez]

Paul

The reason i said that if they wanted to make romance continunity difficult we'd have seen evidence of this in Losb was because it makes sense imo that they'll handle the issue pretty similarly, pretty much all the romance arcs follow the same line, there are little subtle differences off course, but mostly they follow the same formula.

When it comes to resuming you relationship with Liara in LOSB, its basically just a nod and a wink that restarts the relationship regardless whether or not you've started a new relationship, the key issue in restoring the relationship is not what Shepard may have done rather its who if you get me.

So in order to restart the relationship with Ash it'll pretty much be this issue that needs to be resolved rather than Horizon, think back to LOSB and how much of the events that supposedly create a rift between Shepard and Liara are gone into, basically Liara puts across her case and you as Shepard reassure her that she did nothing wrong and thats it. no real major examination of what Liara did or why she did it, just a simple explanation and a reassurance from Shepard and all is well.

To me it stands to reason that this is pretty much the same route they'll take with Ash, in order to resume the romance arc it'll play out exactly as Liara's did in terms of whether or not you've romanced someone else and in terms of the other issues, an explanation from Ash and then you as Shepard will have the option to reassure her she did nothing wrong or confront her over what you think she's done wrong.

You do only get the e-mail if you romanced her that's true, but its the fact that the e-mail exists that imo pretty much explains how Ash is feeling post horizon, the sentiments expressed in the e-mail pretty much show where her character is at that time in terms of how she views shepard.

Those people who romanced her are given this e-mail as a little extra because they romanced her but imo the sentiments expressed are the same regardless, the only difference being that if romanced your aware of these sentiments.

Or to put it another way, irrespective of how you handled horizon if you romance Ash you receive the e-mail (which imo suggests Ash has re-examined her postion and questioned how she acted on horizon) the e-mail is a confirmation of where Ash as a character is in terms of how she feels about Shepard.

So basically they've created a new starting point for Ash as a character post horizon, now to not also have that as the starting point for a non romanced Ash would mean they have to create two starting points for the same character, one where because she's romanced she understands Shepards actions a bit better and can see why he's doing what he's doing and why its for the best and one where she cannot and is still stuck with the same perceptions she had on horizon.

I just can't see them going any other route other than having one starting point for Ash as a character regardless of whether or not she's romanced, she'll imo be in exactly the same position regardless, in essence the e-mail is her new starting point, the only difference is that you'l be more aware of this come me3 if you romanced her and the scene may make a little more sense.

One other thing regarding Ash and how they imo will handle her character is the evidence of me2 itself, if you romanced her in me1 when you meet her on horizon the scene has only slight variations, the issues that cause the rift are the same irrespective of whether you romanced her or not which prove that when you meet her she's starting from a certain point characterwise.

Basically romanced or not you still are accused of the same things and you still cannot change the outcome, the only difference is a slight variation that showed you romanced her, this is also true with Liara in LOSB, the characters all have the same basic issues regardless of romance, the only difference is romanced adds another variable to the characters.

In terms of the relationships themselves and whether or not characters have moved on, well Liara also suggests pretty much the same thing in regards to restarting the romance, she also pretty much says things have changed and that she is not who she used to be, how big an obstacle did that turn out to be in restarting the romance, none.

I think your taking what both Ash and Kaiden say too literally in this respect, to me it came across as it did with Liara as an almost defence mechanism, to suggest that they were fine so they wouldn't be hurt if Shepard was no longer interested, once however Shepard shows that he is interested the true feelings come out.

Remember Liara's reaction in losb once you make it clear you wish to restart the romance, this kinda proves her words were not exactly the truth, that in reality she of course loves Shepard but is worried that perhaps its Shepard who feels differently.

Again i'd say they'll do things pretty much the same in regards to Ash/Kaiden, once its shown by Shepard that the interest remains then they too will just fall back into Shepards arms, after all Shepard is bond in space and no one can resist bond.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
As far as the mass murder episode is concerned. I mentioned it partially tongue in cheek. My intent was to be facetious. Having failed that, allow me to be completely serious for a moment. First, while the Arrival DLC was intended to be played after Horizon and the apology was tendered, it was not strictly necessary that it be done that way. Second, if Williams doubted you on Horizon, and you freely admit that she did, then this may provide her grounds for doubting you again. In fact, I could use some of your own arguments to make a case for her doubting you again. Who knows, maybe it will be a deal breaker for her.
 

Actually, Arrival does not unlock until after Horizon.  It's like LOTSB that way.

That said, it is entirely possible that Arrival could widen teh rift between SHepard and Ash.  In fact, I would  consider Arrival to be a better reason for Ash to doubt Shepard than Horizon.  After all, Shepard is guilty of killing 300k batarians, whatever the reasons were.  He did do it.

But any reaction Ash may or may not have concerning it is purely speculation.  The only reaction we've had concerning it are from 1) Hackett and 2) Harbringer.  Maybe it'll be a dal breaker for her, maybe not.  After Horizon, can you really predict how she's going to react? 

As far as not continuing the romance between Shepard and Ashley, such a move would open up new vistas to the writers. First, she could be a potential rival for command. Imagine, you give orders and leave the Normandy for a groundside mission expecting her to carry them out. When you return, she didn't follow your orders, chose a different path and arrived at a slightly better outcome. She feels pride in her accomplishment. How do you react? Did she help you or undermine your command? There is a natural tension between former lovers in a superior/subordinate role and this could be played for great effect as Williams finally coming into her own as a command figure.

While I don't doubt you'll be able to cut off the romance permanently, and perhaps simply be friends or rivals, I believe it is confirmed that all the ME1 romances will be able to be continued.  A big deal has been made of the conecpt of "love trinagles) with ME1 and ME2 LIs.  
 

Additionally, Ashley has been footloose and fancy free for two whole years. How do you know for certain that she hasn't found a replacement for you? Third, break ups happen in real life all of the time. Suppose that Ashley has been indexed so that you have two choices. Win her back or let her go and move on. In the winning her back phase you may have to undercut her current lover, but all is fair in love and war.

Possible.  But let's face it, Commander Shepard?  His pure bad**** awesomeness allows a geth and a quarian to work together with hardly a ripple.  You think any potential rival can match that?
 

Modifié par iakus, 03 octobre 2011 - 02:07 .

[knightnblu]

Recent posts have given me a great deal to think about. After much rumination, I have arrived at the following conclusions:
 
1. I am entitled to my feelings
 
I have been criticized for being too hard, to unforgiving, too myopic in my views, too whatever, but that criticism fails to recognize that I have a right to those feelings. I believe that Ashley could have and more importantly, should have, believed in Shepard. This is because she knew him best of all, she claimed to have loved him and that implies a deep trust and understanding of one another, and her personal knowledge of the man and their service together and witnessing him making decision under fire, as well as her personal knowledge of the events that took place on Horizon that she witnessed with her own eyes.
 
Say what you will, but her reaction does not make any sense given the following:
 
a. Tali didn't abandon Shepard and she had far more reason to hate Cerberus than Williams did given Cerberus' intrusion into her home and the murder of Quarians aboard the flotilla in pursuit of Gillian Grayson.
 
b. Councilor Anderson was suspicious of Shepard (understandably so, under the circumstances), but did not throw him under the bus as Williams did.
 
c. Even the presence of Garrus on Horizon did not dissuade her from abandoning Shepard. Nor did the strong vocal objection deter her from her course if you had her in the party.
 
d. Williams' own experience as the survivor of the Collector attack and having actually witnessed the piles of dead Collectors on her way to the fire control station and the escape of the Collector ship with smoke streaming from it's hull as it ascended indicating that it had fled the attack initiated by the defenders of the colony. All of which she ignored in order to launch an attack on Shepard.
 
While I realize that it has been two years since Williams last laid eyes on Shepard, people do not fundamentally change their character. In order to do so you must override your instruction and parental influence from childhood, the reinforcement received from the educational system and any religious indoctrination you have received. It is not impossible, but it is also extremely rare. There is no indications that Williams would have been aware of that would indicate that Shepard had undergone experiences that would likely lead to such an occurrence.
 
This is because the nature of the rumors circulated by TIM would have two objectives: Be serious enough that real doubt would be established, but without prompting arrest of Shepard preventing him from moving about freely. It is a delicate balancing act, but TIM pulled it off.
 
2. I have no obligation to fall down at Ashley's feet, weeping and begging her forgiveness for having died or for some imagined slight.
 
Shepard did not arrange his own death, nor did he have any knowledge that he would be dead when the Cruiser of unknown design opened fire on the SR1. It was clear that the Normandy was overmatched, beaten, and going down for the count. An order to abandon ship was issued and Shepard remained onboard in order to get a crewman off of the ship.
 
During the evacuation of Joker, the Normandy was again attacked and an explosion threw him clear of the escape pod and prevented him from abandoning the ship. Shepard activated the pod and expelled Joker from the ship as an explosion knocked him against a bulkhead damaging the structural integrity of his suit and subsequently throwing Shepard clear of the wreck.
 
Once clear of the Normandy, Shepard noticed that his suit was ruptured and leaking his environmental O2. Shepard lost consciousness during a subsequent explosions and/or due to the lack of O2 and died. Where in all of that is Shepard at fault?
 
Posters to this thread have repeatedly said that both Shepard and Williams should apologize. If this is so, then both are at fault. Therefore, where does Shepard's fault lay? What decision did he make that required an apology? What should he say? I am sorry that I was killed by the Collectors? Sorry it wasn't you instead? What?
 
Shepard wakes up to a pitched firefight. He's sore as hell, doesn't know where he is, how he got there, or what is going on. Should he apologize for that as well? "You know Ashley, you're right. I am so very sorry for not being omniscient." Sorry, but that doesn't make a bit of sense either.
 
Next thing you know, Shepard finds himself at some secret Cerberus facility. According to Miranda, he could either go there or stay aboard the space station with the killer robots as the only survivor. Should he apologize for not having taken that option? He speaks to TIM is told about the disappearing colonies and that neither the Council nor the Alliance is doing anything to stop the disappearances and that the Reapers are likely involved. Shepard is sent to Freedom's Progress and witnesses the abduction for himself and meets Tali. Should he apologize for that I wonder?
 
He next goes to the Citadel and meets with Anderson and 'lo and behold everything that TIM has told him about the inaction of the Citadel and the Alliance is true. Go figure. Should Shepard apologize for that? Where did Shepard foul up? The first question I asked Anderson was about Williams. I got stonewalled. Not that it was tracked anyway. Maybe Shepard should apologize for the devs failing to take Paragon scores and questions about Williams into account.
 
Should Shepard apologize just because? That is the most insulting aspect of all. It assumes that Williams is a child that will be placated by such and that Shepard doesn't believe that she has the smarts to see the obvious manipulation in such a move. Therefore there can be no other conclusion, but that Shepard owes no apology to Williams.
 
3. If circumstances were different, I would be forced to agree with my detractors.
 
If Williams did not know Shepard so well, if there had been nothing between them, if Shepard had been renegade, if Shepard had never killed every Cerberus team he ever ran across, all of that could have totaled up to something possibly very ugly. In such circumstances, Shepard's actions could be viewed in a very different light.
 
But if you played paragon, made mostly ethical choices, didn't take the easy path because people would get hurt, tried to obey the rules, killed Cerberus because they had it coming, established a trusting relationship with Ashley then the rumors be damned. Williams should have known better.
 
4. Treating Ashley like a disillusioned school girl is a disservice to her character.
 
Williams was established as a strong female. She doesn't mind going against the grain to accomplish her mission. She's tough, outspoken, and doesn't need a man's approval for anything. She is more than willing to fight for what she believes in and God help you if you get in her way. That is the kind of woman that I can respect. It was what drew me to her. She lacked some personal confidence in her own worth, but essentially she was one tough cookie.
 
By portraying her as some grieving, weepy, emotionally distraught school girl you do her character a great disservice. That isn't who she is. By treating her like an equal and expecting her to own up to her foul ups you honor her character because you expect her to have the backbone to take responsibility for her failures. If you would deny her that, then you don't know Williams or you don't respect her. That is why I want her feet held to the fire on Horizon. She's tough, she can take it.
 
 
5. Saving the galaxy takes priority over Shepard's love life.
 
The fats in the fire and time is running out. I don't have time for long, drawn out courtships and explanations. If Williams has something to say then she had damned well better say it or get off of my ship. That is just where we are and there is absolutely no time for "couples" counseling.
 
The galaxy is on fire and the survivors are becoming extra crispy as time wears on. Under differing circumstances I would have a different outlook, but given our peek at ME3 it is evident that the time for discussion is long past. It is time for action and pray that we are not too late.
 
Therefore, Shepard's love life is not very high on the priorities list.
 
Am I open to repairing the damage done by Williams on Horizon? I am, but she had better make a clear, concise, and convincing argument for her behavior because that is all the time that I have to dedicate to that issue. If she can't do that then she can go play house with Admiral Hackett if he's still alive.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

Recent posts have given me a great deal to think about. After much rumination, I have arrived at the following conclusions:
 
1. I am entitled to my feelings
 
I have been criticized for being too hard, to unforgiving, too myopic in my views, too whatever, but that criticism fails to recognize that I have a right to those feelings. I believe that Ashley could have and more importantly, should have, believed in Shepard. This is because she knew him best of all, she claimed to have loved him and that implies a deep trust and understanding of one another, and her personal knowledge of the man and their service together and witnessing him making decision under fire, as well as her personal knowledge of the events that took place on Horizon that she witnessed with her own eyes.

I wouldn't say you're too hard or unforgiving.  I would say you're overly pessimistic.  The situation may yet be salvageable, if Bioware can just see how truly awful that scene was and strive to do better next time.  OR maybe there's something in teh pipeline that will make the nonsensical sensical.  Maybe.  OR maybe I'm just an optimist.
 

2. I have no obligation to fall down at Ashley's feet, weeping and begging her forgiveness for having died or for some imagined slight.

Agreed.  The fault lies with both and neither.  I can't fault characters for being forced to speak terrible lines in a railroaded scene.  Both Ash and Shepard said some stupid things.  But there was literally no way around it.  I can't fault Ash for that any more than I can fault Shepard.
 

3. If circumstances were different, I would be forced to agree with my detractors.
 
If Williams did not know Shepard so well, if there had been nothing between them, if Shepard had been renegade, if Shepard had never killed every Cerberus team he ever ran across, all of that could have totaled up to something possibly very ugly. In such circumstances, Shepard's actions could be viewed in a very different light.
 
But if you played paragon, made mostly ethical choices, didn't take the easy path because people would get hurt, tried to obey the rules, killed Cerberus because they had it coming, established a trusting relationship with Ashley then the rumors be damned. Williams should have known better.

Somewhat agree.  The problem here is we do not know what Ash has heard exactly, or what evidence was put forth.  TIM had enough petty cash lting around to build a highly advanced stealth warship.  And bring someone back to life.  Who knows how much he could throw into a whisper campaign, what evidence could be forged?  For all we know, he was able to half-convince the Alliance that Shepard was responsible for the missing colonies.  Note Ash's mentioning rumors that Shep wasn't dead and working for Cerberus come but one breath after she said  that Alliance intel thought Horizon would be th enext world hit.

But yes, the whole scene seems to suggest that Shep was always kinda renegade.  Cut corners strike again.!
 

4. Treating Ashley like a disillusioned school girl is a disservice to her character.

 
100% agree.  Don't let the pink armor fool you.  There's a reason she has the name she does.
 
 

5. Saving the galaxy takes priority over Shepard's love life.

The fats in the fire and time is running out. I don't have time for long, drawn out courtships and explanations. If Williams has something to say then she had damned well better say it or get off of my ship. That is just where we are and there is absolutely no time for "couples" counseling.

There was time while chasing after Saren.  Thre was time while gathering a squad for the Collectors.  There's time now.  Shepard will not be running, gunning, and diplomacizing 24/7.  There will be time to celear the air.  Even if it's just the time between relay jumps.  

And should the worst happen and Ash or Shepard not make it, it would be a terrible tragedy to have left words unsaid between them.  Whoever survived would forever regret that.   

[knightnblu]

iakus said "I wouldn't say you're too hard or unforgiving. I would say you're overly pessimistic. The situation may yet be salvageable, if Bioware can just see how truly awful that scene was and strive to do better next time. OR maybe there's something in teh pipeline that will make the nonsensical sensical. Maybe. OR maybe I'm just an optimist."
 
Pessimistic? I don't know about that. I'll have to think on that one. I actually started this thread hoping that BioWare would give some consideration to how Ashley behaved on Horizon and fix it. Will they? Hope so, but don't know for sure. As for being an optimist, nothing wrong with that my friend.
 
 
"Agreed. The fault lies with both and neither. I can't fault characters for being forced to speak terrible lines in a railroaded scene. Both Ash and Shepard said some stupid things. But there was literally no way around it. I can't fault Ash for that any more than I can fault Shepard."
 
 
I can't say that I disagree with your position, but I do have a different take on it. What we call "bad writing" may be a prelude to something else. We just don't know. There are a number of directions the writers could take and from what I have observed in game, they rarely make mistakes. Was this the exception? Not sure.
 
 
"...The problem here is we do not know what Ash has heard exactly, or what evidence was put forth. TIM had enough petty cash lting around to build a highly advanced stealth warship. And bring someone back to life. Who knows how much he could throw into a whisper campaign, what evidence could be forged? For all we know, he was able to half-convince the Alliance that Shepard was responsible for the missing colonies. Note Ash's mentioning rumors that Shep wasn't dead and working for Cerberus come but one breath after she said that Alliance intel thought Horizon would be th enext world hit."
 
True, but we can reasonably surmise that they could not have been too serious or it would have generated intense interest from law enforcement, the Council, and the Alliance. Regarding the Alliance, if the rumors were too strong Admiral Hackett would not have been able to stop the Alliance from pursuing Shepard. Anderson's hands would have been tied as well. So we can safely assume that the rumors about Shepard were nothing too severe. However, they had to be serious enough to result in the withdrawal of trust.
 
TIM wanted doubt about Shepard, not conviction about him. Doubt would lead to the revocation of trust. Conviction about Shepard would have led to action that could have neutralized Shepard's ability to perform his services for Cerberus. As I said, a very delicate balancing act, but one that was well within TIM's capabilities. Additionally, he had two years to plan it all out and to position assets to execute his disinformation campaign.

In a nutshell, Williams overreacted.

Modifié par knightnblu, 10 octobre 2011 - 05:55 .

[McBaal]

Well, Ash is my ME1 LI. She is a fantastic woman. But i was REALY!!!  P.I.S.S.E.D!!! after Horizon And then there is Miranda, ready to get humped to blow off some steam and anger about Ashleys traitory. But in my opinion she isnt realy a match for Ashley, so staying loyal to her (even if she blew it on Horizon) wouldnt be that hard...Ih there werent this green eyed Yeoman with the red hair. And since Kelly will return in ME3 (hopefully as a full romance) it is up to Ash what happens next. If she screws up again: "Thats it Ash, farewell"

Ash appears to be unsure about her feelings for her skipper. I guess this is some kind of selfprotection in case Shepard dies again. A scenario that must appear most likely to her, since the commander has this special talent to ****** off damn mighty enemies At the end there is no definitive answer. The door is still open, for both of them. But after Horizon it is her turn to go through.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
True, but we can reasonably surmise that they could not have been too serious or it would have generated intense interest from law enforcement, the Council, and the Alliance. Regarding the Alliance, if the rumors were too strong Admiral Hackett would not have been able to stop the Alliance from pursuing Shepard. Anderson's hands would have been tied as well. So we can safely assume that the rumors about Shepard were nothing too severe. However, they had to be serious enough to result in the withdrawal of trust.
 
TIM wanted doubt about Shepard, not conviction about him. Doubt would lead to the revocation of trust. Conviction about Shepard would have led to action that could have neutralized Shepard's ability to perform his services for Cerberus. As I said, a very delicate balancing act, but one that was well within TIM's capabilities. Additionally, he had two years to plan it all out and to position assets to execute his disinformation campaign.

In a nutshell, Williams overreacted.

Or the rumors could have been severe, but the evidence sketchy.  People's lives and careers can be ruined through whisper campaigns, innuendo, and rumor.  Even if there's no evidence, people eat it up with a spoon, especially for famous people.  There's enough gossip papers out there to prove that;)

How strongly Ash reacted depends on what was heard exactly and how much credence Shepard being on Horizon gave them.

Though in the last few days, I've gained a lot more sympathy for her position...

[Esqudo]

There's also the matter that Ash might have "cheated" on Shep within the span of the last 2 1/2 years. Kaidan sends a message to Fem Shep indicating that he has been seeing other people. You could conclude that the same might be going on for Ashley, and even deduce from her lack of mentioning that to Shep in her message, that she has gone even further.

But, that's just speculation. Or, it could mean that this love triangle Bioware mentions in Mass Effect 3, might be adjoined by the individual Ashley/Kaidan were seeing during Mass Effect 2.

[knightnblu]

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
 
True, but we can reasonably surmise that they could not have been too serious or it would have generated intense interest from law enforcement, the Council, and the Alliance. Regarding the Alliance, if the rumors were too strong Admiral Hackett would not have been able to stop the Alliance from pursuing Shepard. Anderson's hands would have been tied as well. So we can safely assume that the rumors about Shepard were nothing too severe. However, they had to be serious enough to result in the withdrawal of trust.
 
TIM wanted doubt about Shepard, not conviction about him. Doubt would lead to the revocation of trust. Conviction about Shepard would have led to action that could have neutralized Shepard's ability to perform his services for Cerberus. As I said, a very delicate balancing act, but one that was well within TIM's capabilities. Additionally, he had two years to plan it all out and to position assets to execute his disinformation campaign.

In a nutshell, Williams overreacted.

Or the rumors could have been severe, but the evidence sketchy.  People's lives and careers can be ruined through whisper campaigns, innuendo, and rumor.  Even if there's no evidence, people eat it up with a spoon, especially for famous people.  There's enough gossip papers out there to prove that;)

How strongly Ash reacted depends on what was heard exactly and how much credence Shepard being on Horizon gave them.

Though in the last few days, I've gained a lot more sympathy for her position...

If the rumors were that severe and there were credible reasons to believe them without the necessary evidence to prove them, I would have Shepard picked up as soon as he surfaced. Further, Hackett would not have been able to forestall the Alliance from bringing him in without invoking the wrath of his superiors. There is a stark difference between doubt and what is necessary for action.
 
I once submitted that the Alliance would want an accounting from Shepard for the destruction of the Normandy. That is typical of surface fleets today and I don't really see any need to change that when ships traverse the stars. Such vessels are substantial investments and any loss is studied to insure that anything that can be learned from such a loss is done to prevent future ships from suffering a similar fate. That alone is powerful motivation to bring Shepard in. Adding more fuel to that fire would not be wise.
 
Given the nature of the Spectres, the STG, and the Alliance, you cannot really allow so much to slide before you begin to lose control of your operations. TIM would know this and would therefore insure that whatever he floated, it would stay beneath the point of evoking action to seize Shepard. Thus, he could insure that Shepard would have the necessary freedom to move about in Council space without fear of his being arrested.
 
 
Esqudo - That's another possible reason for Ashley's bizarre behavior on Horizon. She's young, around smart, fit, and charismatic people for two years after Shepard and I believe that is a distinct possibility. When your former lover shows up from the dead and throws a monkey wrench into your current love life, that could shake you. It is one of my original assertions for her behavior.
 
I for one, never expected Williams to pine away for me until the end of time. I was dead and life goes on. Is that why we didn't have DLC for Ash? Guess we will just have to wait for ME3 to find out.

[Darkassassinx21]

nope i dump her for miranda...i hope she doesnt get to pis*ed at me!

[Xilizhra]

Is there a particular reason you're aiming for petty romantic vengeance? Will it actually serve your cause in any way?

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

If the rumors were that severe and there were credible reasons to believe them without the necessary evidence to prove them, I would have Shepard picked up as soon as he surfaced. Further, Hackett would not have been able to forestall the Alliance from bringing him in without invoking the wrath of his superiors. There is a stark difference between doubt and what is necessary for action.

My impression of Hackett is that he's not afraid to get into the dirt himself if need be.  That he can make life very unpleasant for those who cross him, rank or no rank.  Having him at his back, plus Anderson, plus whatever moles/sympathizers TIM has operating within Alliance government, I think Shepard was pretty well insulated.  Provided TIM doesn't overplay the rumors.  And Shepard doesnt' go too extreme, like, say blowing up a solar system.

 

I once submitted that the Alliance would want an accounting from Shepard for the destruction of the Normandy. That is typical of surface fleets today and I don't really see any need to change that when ships traverse the stars. Such vessels are substantial investments and any loss is studied to insure that anything that can be learned from such a loss is done to prevent future ships from suffering a similar fate. That alone is powerful motivation to bring Shepard in. Adding more fuel to that fire would not be wise.

And it may be why Hackett has to personally step in to quash investigations.  Also, hauling Shepard in would likely be a PR nightmare for the Alliance.  Commander Shepard, Savior of the CItadel, first human Spectre, thought to have been killed in action while fighting death, turning up alive, working with terrorists, and now under suspcion for the Enkindlers-knows what else.  As much as the Alliance may want answers, they would have to be very careful in how they go about getting them.  Such caution could explain why Anderson stonewalled Ash.  
 
Given the nature of the Spectres, the STG, and the Alliance, you cannot really allow so much to slide before you begin to lose control of your operations. TIM would know this and would therefore insure that whatever he floated, it would stay beneath the point of evoking action to seize Shepard. Thus, he could insure that Shepard would have the necessary freedom to move about in Council space without fear of his being arrested.
 

I for one, never expected Williams to pine away for me until the end of time. I was dead and life goes on. Is that why we didn't have DLC for Ash? Guess we will just have to wait for ME3 to find out.

Certainly a possibility, but personally I doubt this is the case.  If Ash mourned Shepard as much as she says, she likely only started seeing other people fairly recently, if at all.  Also, Ash doens't strike me as the type to deflect "I met someone else" with "You're a traitor"  She's blunt to a fault, if she met someone, she would have said so.  That's what makes her words on Horizon so painful: she means them.  Or meant them at the time, while her blood was up.  

Modifié par iakus, 16 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[MegaBadExample]

Honestly, if Ashley met someone else she wouldn't have bothered sending an email at all to a romanced Shepard. "I keep going back to that night before Ilos...Our night." I'll take that as Yeah, I'm still single, we'll work things out in ME3 since BioWare cbf making a DLC. Kbye.

[alperez]

Seriously, she was taking a lot of pleasure in stabbing Shepard in the back, thats your interpretation of Horizon.

Shepard returns after being presumed dead for 2 years, he's now aligned himself with people considered to be terrorists by the alliance, the very people he and the Ash supposedly served, he offers no real explanations or proof of what he claims, shows absolutely no concern whatsoever for someone he supposedly cared about yet because he's questioned about things, because he's then accused of things, its the other person's who's at fault.

We've seen already in mass effect someone who thought he was doing what's right, who thought he alone knew the answers and working with people considered the enemy was the only course of action available to him, someone who people believed in, who people couldn't fathom he would ever betray them, his name was Saren.

So why in the situation Shepard's in on Horizon, where his death, his actions over the past 2 years and his present alignment with cerberus open up questions that he doesn't answer, should anyone not even consider that perhaps just perhaps Shepard like Saren before him is wrong.

Nihlus never for a second believed Saren to be a danger, he turned his back and remember how that ended up.

For the reapers read cerberus, for indoctrination read duped or manipulated, but if it can be true that someone like Saren would betray everything he ever stood for, then why can't the same be true also for Shepard.

Ash brings most of this up to Shepard, she questions his working with cerberus, what it means, yet Shepard despite having evidence,despite having proof to explain his position, responds with a trust me, you know me.

Nihlus trusted Saren, he thought he knew him, only for that trust, that knowledge to be repayed with a bullet to the brain.

[knightnblu]

iakus said "My impression of Hackett is that he's not afraid to get into the dirt himself if need be. That he can make life very unpleasant for those who cross him, rank or no rank. Having him at his back, plus Anderson, plus whatever moles/sympathizers TIM has operating within Alliance government, I think Shepard was pretty well insulated. Provided TIM doesn't overplay the rumors. And Shepard doesnt' go too extreme, like, say blowing up a solar system."
 
Oops, too late! Think we can fix the Batarian system before anyone notices? 
 
 
alperez said "Nihlus never for a second believed Saren to be a danger, he turned his back and remember how that ended up.

For the reapers read cerberus, for indoctrination read duped or manipulated, but if it can be true that someone like Saren would betray everything he ever stood for, then why can't the same be true also for Shepard.

Ash brings most of this up to Shepard, she questions his working with cerberus, what it means, yet Shepard despite having evidence,despite having proof to explain his position, responds with a trust me, you know me.

Nihlus trusted Saren, he thought he knew him, only for that trust, that knowledge to be repayed with a bullet to the brain."
 
You make a good point with Nihlus and Saren. I have been reading the books and Saren was twisted from way back when and in the habit of keeping secrets from the Council. But if that's what was going through Williams mind on Horizon, she has zero trust in Shepard. If she has zero trust in Shepard, she certainly meant the allegations of treason both personally and professionally. That being the case, I'm not really sure why she didn't just arrest him on the spot as a traitor.
 
As far as having evidence to give to Ashley, what evidence did he have? He had no records, he had no video, he had nobody to stand for him. All Shepard had was his word and without trust, that is worth less than nothing. Hence the "You know me Ash." Apparently, she didn't.
 
For some folks, it's all about the hotness. For others, it's all about loyalty. While I admit that asking her to trust a man that she hasn't seen in two years is a lot to ask, I still believe that it was not out of the question to expect more from her under the circumstances. Was she emotionally compromised? Truthfully, I don't know.
 
With Liara, she was caught up in heavy, swirling emotions until the Shadow Broker was brought down. But when that happened, the flood gates of emotion opened and she nearly cracked. Williams doesn't strike me as the same type. It isn't that she doesn't feel, but that she keeps such a tight rein on her emotions. With Williams, it's all about control. That's why Horizon was so shocking. She let Shepard have it with both barrels and with venom. You can't fix that with a "sorry." If you did that to your wife and tried to send her a tepid emailed apology, she would likely brain you with a frying pan for it and I can't say that I would blame her.