1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Shepard does have a choice about working for Cerberus. The player doesn't but Shepard still chooses to work for terrorists. The reason Ashley calls him a traitor is because she's angry that he would work for enemies of the Alliance after all the work they did together. It's hard for her to understand why he did it, but years of service hardly preclude one from being a traitor. Look at Saren, he was loyal to the council for years and he betrayed them. Ashley hears that Shepard is working for the enemy, when she sees him he even nonchalantly tells her that he is. Why would she ask for permission to speak freely at that point?

[knightnblu]

laecraft said "And if the issue is glossed over in ME3, then I'm going to be really disappointed. Whether the writers intended this or not, they should own up to it. They created a conflict, let's exploit it. Honestly, I'm going to laugh so hard if I see something like this:

VS: About Horizon...
Shepard: It's all in the past. Let's go kick some Reaper ass.
VS: Agreed."
 
If that happens in ME3, I am going to be ticked. The writers brought us to this point and if they just sweep it under the rug and act like nothing has happened, that's just wrong. Discussing the events between the VS and Shepard has illuminated that there was an intent to form a schism between Shepard and VS/LI. Some folks have argued that the intent was to direct you toward a new paramour. While that may indeed have been part of the intent, I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop.
 
I have played BioWare games for years and they have never disappointed me. If they act like nothing major happened on Horizon between the VS and Shepard, it will be the first time that BioWare has disappointed me and I really hope that doesn't happen.
 
ubermensch007 said "This is a man who would have taken a bullet for either of them.This is a man, who lead them to victory after victory.Success after success.And they have the NERVE -- to speak to him in such a way.

I still can't believe BioWare didn't give us the option through the conversation wheel, to say to them,"Who The Hell, Do You Think You Talking To?!" & "Who the hell, do you think you are?!""
 
I don't think that the writers come from a military culture. Add in the fact that Ashley was your lover and that allows her to abridge the chain of command a bit, which is why there are rules against fraternization. However, her military training and background should have reined her in more in my opinion. There exists two possibilities to explain how this happened, either the writers understood the military culture and wrote it with the civilian in mind or they were ignorant of military culture altogether. However, I don't view that knowledge as crucial because the game needs to be accessible to all, though I have to agree with you about the disrespect.
 
By now those in charge of the story should be aware that there is a segment of the gamers who do come from a military culture and who look at Ashley's behavior in Horizon in a very different light. I believe that needs to be addressed in ME3 unless they want to continue the schism between the VS and Shepard for those people.
 
Quething said "How can she possibly conclude from the minimal information she's given that Shepard even considered not rolling over for TIM, much less attempted any other course of action? Shepard never says "actually I hate Cerberus, this whole mission is me under duress." Instead, Shepard says "I'm totally cool with Cerberus as long as they help me" and "you're being too emotional." The squadmates defend Cerberus and insult Ash and the Alliance and Shepard makes no effort to contradict them. Certainly Shepard never speaks of Cerberus with the least bit of distrust or venom, and is basically just full of righteous "stop questioning me because REAPERS." Nothing about that spells "I hate every second of this and I would kick a truckful of puppies if it meant I could go back to the Alliance." Rather the opposite in fact. You can't expect her to know Shepard's secret virtue when the only evidence she's actually presented with points to betrayal."
 
I have to disagree with you on this. While it is true that Shepard does not go into great detail about his situation with Cerberus, he does tell her that he doesn't answer to Cerberus. Williams ignores this and contends that it is possible that Shepard is just trying to sugarcoat his betrayal. That is a distinct character judgment that she makes. She takes what she knows about Shepard, what she has witnessed him do, and basically says that I no longer trust your word. If Williams can no longer trust Shepard's word that pretty much concludes the relationship between them and makes her an unknown quantity in my estimation.
 
Further, Williams knows that Shepard has saved the colony, saved her life for the third time, and knows that Shepard is not behind the disappearances. So at least parts of the rumors she has heard before are incorrect. Yet she pays no heed to that either. She just makes a snap judgment and convicts Shepard right then and there as a traitor.
 
I will grant you that Williams is ignorant of TIM and what has transpired to place both she and Shepard on Horizon, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Ashley should know Shepard's character having served under him and witnessing him in action time and again. She also knows Shepard intimately and that is a position of great trust unless it is a one night stand kind of deal. When I played Mass Effect, I didn't look at it that way. What's more, Williams was aggressive as all get out over her desire for Shepard despite having been attracted to another soldier in her unit on Eden Prime and refusing to take action because of the potential complications (Ashley's letter home).
 
This means that either her character is all over the map, or she saw something in Shepard that overrode her instincts and that is powerful. Finally, she tells Shepard that she loved him. Such an admission coming from such a woman is powerful. Williams doesn't trust easily and I can't imagine those words spilling out of her mouth more than rarely. I find it incredible that she would just throw Shepard away so casually after all of that just because she learns that he is with Cerberus. That would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Therefore, the scene on Horizon doesn't make sense to me given the context.
 
I will grant you that if I were her, I would be shocked to have that confirmed, but I would also want to know more. Has Shepard changed? Why is he working for Cerberus? What does this mean for us? Can he be trusted? Ashley doesn't question, she just leaves after making an immediate judgment on the man, his character, and his actions without even having the full story. I have to admit, that I don't think that the writers ever intended for that scene on Horizon to be as big as it has grown to be (in my mind at least). But that is the beauty of the story.
 
When a tale takes on a life of it's own, it grows and changes. It may look like one thing on paper (or in the word processor these days), but in translation during game play it can take on unforeseen nuances giving us what we are debating now. This is partly because of vocal inflection and facial expression, but when the story filters through the mind of the player it is met with diverse experiences that can also influence the story line. Either way you slice it, it sure is burning up the threads.
 
Quething said "As for the apology, I don't think that's necessarily an admission of some grave wrongdoing on her part. Presumably she gets the same evidence of Shep's honesty (maybe she and Anderson hooked up and exchanged notes) regardless of whether she romanced Shep or not, but only a romanced Shepard gets the message. I think it's more a "I don't even care who was right and who was wrong, what I care about is that I love you and don't want to fight with you, so I'll make the first move toward fixing that."
 
In my mind, when Ashley essentially says that she no longer trusts Shepard's word, that ended the relationship between them. Because how can you have a relationship without trust? Oh sure, you could have a dysfunctional one, but one that provides strength to both parties and forms a home? Not hardly.
 
Also, if she didn't believe Shepard why should she believe Anderson? How does Anderson know what Shepard is all about? He hasn't seen him in two years, just like Ashley. Unless that's who she is intimate with and who she now trusts while she clearly no longer trusts Shepard. Now that would be an interesting happenstance for ME3. Shepard's mentor being Ashley's new paramour would go a long ways toward explaining her meltdown on Horizon. His personality is much like Shepard's, he is free according to Shadow Broker files, he brought her aboard the Normandy when Shepard was disabled by the comm relay, and he has a reputation as a top notch soldier. A perfect man for Ashley since Shepard has gone to his grave, so to speak.
 
That love triangle would lend some interesting choices to the characters in ME3 and perhaps that is the other shoe that we are waiting to hear hit the floor. How does Shepard proceed? Does he strive to win her back from the man who was his mentor? What does Ashley feel? Is she torn between a past with the man who made her feel worth what she was striving to achieve or the man who repaired the hole in her heart and gave her a path to move forward on? Against the backdrop of the galaxy on fire, that is some good material for people to navigate in my opinion and it would set up some powerful tensions between the characters with options for both paragons and renegades.
 
Finally, your assertion of, "I don't even care who was right and who was wrong, what I care about is that I love you and don't want to fight with you, so I'll make the first move toward fixing that," is even more insulting than what transpired on Horizon. If that was indeed her motive, she just added insult to injury because it totally discounts what Shepard thinks, feels, and believes.

Jedi Master of Orion said "The reason Ashley calls him a traitor is because she's angry that he would work for enemies of the Alliance after all the work they did together. It's hard for her to understand why he did it, but years of service hardly preclude one from being a traitor. Look at Saren, he was loyal to the council for years and he betrayed them. Ashley hears that Shepard is working for the enemy, when she sees him he even nonchalantly tells her that he is. Why would she ask for permission to speak freely at that point?"
 
Ashley is an NCO and Shepard is an officer in the Alliance. Out here in the real world, that doesn't count for much, but in the service that makes a ton of difference. I have witnessed Privates arguing with Master Sergeants and then snap to attention and salute when a Lieutenant Colonel walks up and settles the issue in favor of the Sergeants. Shepard is a Commander, just one promotion shy of being a Navy Captain and that makes him a high ranking Alliance officer. For Ashley to totally lose it and call him a traitor to his face is a huge breach of military protocol and she could be charged for it. That's why what Ashley did was so bad. In fact, I know of a soldier who disrespected the Commanding General when both were in street clothes at a basketball game and the solider didn't know who he was talking to and could have ended up in the brig for it. That's how serious Ashley's actions were.
 
Williams is supposed to be a soldier through and through. She is supposed to be an example for others to follow and she works her guts out to be a model of military excellence. She blows all of that on Horizon by her behavior. As far as anybody knows, Shepard included, he is still a member of the Alliance military because he was never discharged. It is only his status as a Spectre that prevents the Alliance from charging him for being AWOL for two years. Despite this, there are elements within the Alliance that believe him to be a traitor per TIM's machinations and they want to debrief him, but are shot down by Admiral Hackett when they seek his permission to bring him in.
 
Further, how does Ashley know that Shepard isn't undercover working to take Cerberus down? Tali thought that initially (scene in briefing room when she first comes aboard). Ash just blows a gasket and leaves you there with your jaw on the ground.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure that Shepard isn't art of the Alliance military anymore. He even says so to the Quarian Captain in Tali's loyalty mission. Even if he were, I'm not an expert on military protocol but I would have imagined that faking your death and showing up working in service of terrorists years later would negate the respect he'd get. For all she knows he WAS a traitor. Traitors in the military get the same respect as other officers?

[Quething]

@knightnblu: What she should believe from Anderson is that Shepard did, indeed, attempt to contact non-Cerberus authority figures, like his/her superiors in the Council or an Alliance bigwig, and was rebuffed by those authority figures. Which Shepard does not in fact say, on Horizon, so it's not a matter of believing Anderson and not Shepard, it's simply a matter of somebody finally giving her some facts, since Shepard never deigned to. The full extent of what Shepard says is "I don't answer to Cerberus."

That doesn't mean "I don't approve of Cerberus." (You're sure acting like you do, and you make no effort to contradict Miranda when she spits on the Alliance, which is a form of implicit approval and agreement.)
That doesn't mean "I'm not working with Cerberus." (After all, you are.)
That doesn't mean "I'm not allied to Cerberus." (After all, you are.)
That doesn't mean "I'd rather be working for the Alliance." (You can choose dialog options to dismiss the Alliance, though.)
That doesn't mean "I still believe in Alliance principles." (Again, you implicitly agree with Miranda when she insults said attitudes.)
That doesn't mean "I don't like everything Cerberus does." (You certainly talk about them like the biggest problem with them is that maybe they smell distatstefully bad.)

You say that Ashley doesn't believe Shepard and doesn't trust his word, but there's nothing for her to believe or disbelieve, no word for her to not have faith in. Shepard never disavows Cerberus. Shepard makes no claim whatsoever to still having allegiance to the Alliance. Shepard never states any kind of discomfort with Cerberus or their history or methods. Shepard's only comments are evasive "forget Cerberus, REAPERS REAPERS" complaints and self-righteous statements like "You know I'd only do this for the right reasons," where as far as Ashley knows, "this" means "helping terrorists turn colonists into husks and murder Alliance admirals." Because that's what Cerberus does, and Shepard has made no claim otherwise. Shepard doesn't even claim that s/he's not participating in those bits.

As for the Tali comparison: Tali's not Ashley. She doesn't have Ashley's history with the Alliance, she doesn't have Ashley's relationship with Shepard, she doesn't have Ashley's sensitivity to being turned on by supposed allies due to growing up a Williams, and she doesn't have Ashley's relationship to Cerberus. She doesn't meet Shepard under the same circumstances that Ashley does, and Shepard doesn't speak to her or interact with her on Haestrom or Freedom's Progress the way Shepard speaks to and interacts with Ashley when they meet on Horizon. She doesn't have Ashley's temper and has never reacted to a situation in the same way that Ashley would before. So why would she here?

If that was indeed her motive, she just added insult to injury because it totally discounts what Shepard thinks, feels, and believes.

... no. It... does exactly the opposite of that.

[Martin the Warrior]

Question: "Is Ashley still my girl?"
Well, in the ME1 playthroughs my Shep romanced her in (which is to say, most of them)... the short answer is "heck yeah!"
The long answer: I don't think Ash was entirely unjustified in the things she said on Horizon. Coming back from the dead isn't something that happens every day, so I'd say it's pretty natural for her to assume that Shep was alive and didn't contact her for two years. And considering that Cerberus is a terrorist organization with a reputation for xenophobia and horrific experiments, it makes sense that Ash would be pissed off by finding out that Shepard truly had joined forces with them. For the record, my Shep (or at least the one I've been talking about so far in this post) hated working for Cerberus; the fact that one of their cells was responsible for the deaths of his entire squad kind of made him hate them. So when Ash called him a traitor, part of him knew it was true - even though his reasons for joining Cerberus were good, the end doesn't justify the means. That said, just because I like Ashley doesn't mean I think she's perfect. Often she can't see the bigger picture. But as far as storytelling is concerned, I like it when characters have flaws; it makes them more three-dimensional. I don't demand perfection, I want interestingness. If that's even a word.

[TroyTrojanGamer]

Definately Miranda

[Homebound]

Bachi1230 wrote...





.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:02 .

[knightnblu]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm pretty sure that Shepard isn't art of the Alliance military anymore. He even says so to the Quarian Captain in Tali's loyalty mission. Even if he were, I'm not an expert on military protocol but I would have imagined that faking your death and showing up working in service of terrorists years later would negate the respect he'd get. For all she knows he WAS a traitor. Traitors in the military get the same respect as other officers?

 
If he was separated from the service, then where are his discharge papers? Additionally, why would the Alliance be looking to bring him in for questioning? If he isn't still a member of the service what right do they have to detain him for an estimated six months? That would be a job for public law enforcement, not the military. Unless you are suggesting that Shepard is an enemy combatant?
 
Also, who convicted him of treason besides Ashley? It would take a Courts Martial verdict to accomplish that and to remove any entitlement he has coming to him as a matter of rank. As an NCO, Williams is not even qualified to serve as a member of the Court. Further, if he were convicted of a criminal charge, including treason, he would not be allowed to render military courtesy because to do so is considered a privilege for service members. That would be the only time that he could be treated like a regular Joe. Until that time, he is treated the same as any other officer of his rank.
 
Shepard tells the Quarian Captain that, technically, he isn't even in the military any longer in order to simplify things. Unless and until he is formally discharged from the Alliance military, they own him. This is so that if a diplomatic issue arises, the Alliance either has to bite the bullet or can disavow his actions. This is also why Hackett is so concerned about Shepard being connected to the Alliance over the Batarian affair that caused the deaths of more than 300,000 Batarian citizens. If the Bararians can connect Shepard to that event and the Alliance cannot prove that he was separated from their service, then that becomes a de facto act of war by the Alliance. Imagine this scenario:
 
Batarian: Shepard murdered more than 300,000 of our people!
Alliance: Sorry, not our fault. See, we listed him as killed in action.
Batarian: Is that so? Then why is he walking around on Omega!
Alliance: That just isn't...possible...oh, uh...wait! We have his discharge papers!
Batarian: Let's see them!
Alliance: <frantically searching> I am sure they are around here somewhere (gives weak smile)
Batarian:<with a disgusted look> Our bombers are on their way human.
 
I am certain that Shepard is inactive reserve status at the very least, but a service member he still is.

[Welsh Inferno]

Personally my canon shep is gonna have hell of a tough time choosing from Ash or Tali.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If a higher ranking member of the military was encountered working for Al Qaeda by lower ranking officers, they'd still treat him like a superior officer just because no-one had formally charged him with treason?

[knightnblu]

Quething wrote...

@knightnblu: What she should believe from Anderson is that Shepard did, indeed, attempt to contact non-Cerberus authority figures, like his/her superiors in the Council or an Alliance bigwig, and was rebuffed by those authority figures. Which Shepard does not in fact say, on Horizon, so it's not a matter of believing Anderson and not Shepard, it's simply a matter of somebody finally giving her some facts, since Shepard never deigned to. The full extent of what Shepard says is "I don't answer to Cerberus."

That doesn't mean "I don't approve of Cerberus." (You're sure acting like you do, and you make no effort to contradict Miranda when she spits on the Alliance, which is a form of implicit approval and agreement.)
That doesn't mean "I'm not working with Cerberus." (After all, you are.)
That doesn't mean "I'm not allied to Cerberus." (After all, you are.)
That doesn't mean "I'd rather be working for the Alliance." (You can choose dialog options to dismiss the Alliance, though.)
That doesn't mean "I still believe in Alliance principles." (Again, you implicitly agree with Miranda when she insults said attitudes.)
That doesn't mean "I don't like everything Cerberus does." (You certainly talk about them like the biggest problem with them is that maybe they smell distatstefully bad.)

You say that Ashley doesn't believe Shepard and doesn't trust his word, but there's nothing for her to believe or disbelieve, no word for her to not have faith in. Shepard never disavows Cerberus. Shepard makes no claim whatsoever to still having allegiance to the Alliance. Shepard never states any kind of discomfort with Cerberus or their history or methods. Shepard's only comments are evasive "forget Cerberus, REAPERS REAPERS" complaints and self-righteous statements like "You know I'd only do this for the right reasons," where as far as Ashley knows, "this" means "helping terrorists turn colonists into husks and murder Alliance admirals." Because that's what Cerberus does, and Shepard has made no claim otherwise. Shepard doesn't even claim that s/he's not participating in those bits.

As for the Tali comparison: Tali's not Ashley. She doesn't have Ashley's history with the Alliance, she doesn't have Ashley's relationship with Shepard, she doesn't have Ashley's sensitivity to being turned on by supposed allies due to growing up a Williams, and she doesn't have Ashley's relationship to Cerberus. She doesn't meet Shepard under the same circumstances that Ashley does, and Shepard doesn't speak to her or interact with her on Haestrom or Freedom's Progress the way Shepard speaks to and interacts with Ashley when they meet on Horizon. She doesn't have Ashley's temper and has never reacted to a situation in the same way that Ashley would before. So why would she here?

If that was indeed her motive, she just added insult to injury because it totally discounts what Shepard thinks, feels, and believes.

... no. It... does exactly the opposite of that.

With all due respect, I believe that you are missing the point. My Shepard uploaded damaging intel on Cerberus to Alliance high command, he met with the Council and spoke about his suspicion that the Reapers were behind the missing colonists, he even tried to get a line on Ashley through Anderson and got nowhere. Despite all of that, it is irrelevant to Horizon.
 
Shepard stated implicitly that he didn't answer to Cerberus. Ashley didn't believe him. Some dialog options allow him to specifically say that he died. She doesn't buy that either. When he tells her that she knows him and would never work with Cerberus except for the right reasons, she throws it back in his face. So why would he keep wasting his breath? Her mind is made up.
 
Shepard didn't contradict Miranda when she dissed the Alliance, but he also didn't comment when Jack said that she hated Cerberus as well, but there were other dangers to consider. By your reasoning, Shepard also agrees with that statement and Ashley still will not listen. So I ask you, what would make her listen to anything that Shepard said? She has already made up her mind and closed it. She isn't interested in having a conversation with him, she'd rather argue than to consider Shepard's words. A person cannot be reasoned with when they are in that frame of mind.
 
When you say that there is nothing for her to believe or disbelieve you discount all of her history with Shepard. He saved her life not once, but three times with the most recent occurring about a minute before she lays into him on Horizon. He recognized her talents when he met her on Eden Prime, and my Shep even said that what was done to her grandfather was wrong. Shepard accomplishes the impossible and gets to Ilos and stops Sovereign from succeeding in activating the Citadel relay and bringing in the Reaper fleet and recommends Anderson as humanity's first Councilor. She gets to know him intimately in the two months following the Battle of the Citadel and now you say she has nothing in which to invest any faith? I don't buy it. Sometimes it is easier to deny that there is something to hold your faith than to actually place it there and that is what Williams does to Shepard.
 
Shepard is in a difficult position. Essentially he faces Hobson's choice, either assist Cerberus or allow the Colonists to perish. While it is most certainly true that he never tells Ashley this, I seriously doubt that she would have even listened to him if he had. In her mind, the rumors are true and Shepard has fallen, end of story. She even tells Shepard as much when he protests his innocence of treason. While it is true that she never speaks the words implicitly, the meaning is nevertheless clear.
 
Lastly, while I must agree with you that Tali is certainly not Ashley in personality or experience, she does share an intense dislike for Cerberus as do all of her people. Cerberus attacked the Quarian fleet, murdered some of her fellow citizens aboard one of their ships and as a result, made an enemy of the Quarian people. If Tali is clear about anything, it is her dislike for the group. She even tells Shepard that she was thinking that he was going to blow Cerberus up and that if he still intended to, she would loan him a grenade to help him. Yet, she signs on with Shepard despite her dislike of Cerberus. If Tali can put that much faith into Shepard when she arguably doesn't know him as well as Williams, then what is Ashley's malfunction?
 
Dr. Chackwas is another example. She tells Shepard point blank, I don't work for Cerberus, I work for you on a mission that may be crucial to the survival of the human race. Not Ashley, she hates Cerberus so much she wouldn't work with them if all of humanity hung in the balance. She even said as much on Horizon. In fact, her exact words were, "I'll never work for a group like that." Frankly, I find that a bit narrow minded. Particularly when she told Shepard that if he ordered her to, she would even kiss a Turian. How times have changed.
 
If Ashley did indeed do as you describe with her apology she circumvents Shepard's feelings by "fixing" the relationship before he even has the opportunity to articulate his feelings or she has the opportunity to recognize and respond to them. For Ashley, she wins the argument by default because she essentially gets the opportunity to air her grievances and feelings while Shepard's are suppressed. That is a very mechanistic and arrogant way of looking at the world. Thoughts, emotions, and intuition have no place in such a paradigm.
 
Alternatively, if Ashley were truly interested in addressing the issues brought to light on Horizon, she needs to understand where Shepard is coming from rather than to cut him off at the knees at every opportunity like she did on Horizon. There is an old saying, "beware the sound of one hand clapping." It means that where there is an argument, there is likely a counterargument.
 
I am sure that you only meant to mean that Ashley's position was open and giving, not in the manner in which I describe, but that still leaves the ill effect of shutting Shepard down before he even gets a chance to express his emotions to her. This is why I label it insult to injury.

[Homebound]

^ ya...im not going to read all of that.

[Ryzaki]

laecraft wrote...
9. Just make Shepard and VS into best buddies anyway, regardless of the player's feelings. Give no options to remove them from your crew. Give no options to be angry about Horizon. Give no options to act coldly towards VS. Give no option not to be tightly involved with them throughout the game (I mean plot points like VS being taken hostage or heroically holding the line while Shepard is hurrying to save them.) - This is the only solution that's going to really ****** me off.

Wow, the more I think about ME, the more it seems like relationships is the most essential part of it, to me.

 

Agreed. 
Sadly I think it's the solution BW's most likely to use. <_<

[knightnblu]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If a higher ranking member of the military was encountered working for Al Qaeda by lower ranking officers, they'd still treat him like a superior officer just because no-one had formally charged him with treason?

Guilt can only come about as the result of a conviction. If not, the charge becomes the conviction and people are automatically guilty until proven innocent with the burden of proof resting on the accused. While there are substantial differences between civilian and military justice, the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty is the heart and soul of both systems of justice in the United States.
 
Further, Shepard has not been charged nor convicted of any crime. I expect that will change in ME3 and there are 300K+ reasons for that.

[knightnblu]

laecraft wrote...

I can't wait to see how the writers of VS are going to dig themselves out of the grave that's Horizon. I can see several possible solutions:

1. Exceptional writing, with the Horizon issue fully addressed. (way too much work)

2. Just make VS look hot. New players aren't going to care, as long as the character looks hot.

3. Ignore the Horizon issue completely. A horde of VS-mancers consider it an non-issue, and don't care anyway. As long as they can have hot make-up sex with VS, they're happy. A lot of other players were alienated by the Horizon forever, and it's probably going to be too much work to win them back.

4. A mix of the above, with a half-hearted attempt on VS' part to mend things over, ignore the issue passive-aggressive style, point out that we're in the middle of the invasion (as if we weren't during the Horizon), so we don't have the time to speak, or become even angrier with Shepard for some reason (I'm sure VS can think of anything, won't be the first time).

Outcome: the VS-mancers are happy to have VS on their crew. The players who were insulted by the Horizon are further insulted by the inadequate repercussions, and go to a different LI. New players happily make out with the new, improved, hot VS, not giving a damn about the scene they never saw.

5. Reveal that VS has been indoctrinated all along (the writers' magical wand for explaining any odd behavior.)

6. Kill off VS and give Shepard an option to save them. If Shepard doesn't take that option, he's obviously too pissed off to ever hope to make up with him.

7. Make VS commit an act of heroic sacrifice and let Shepard feel like a jerk for not loving them.

8. A peaceful, non-violent solution - just give us an option to remove VS from our crew. Way to simple and sensible to expect it's going to be implemented. And VS was kept immortal through ME2 for a reason, so I expect they're going to play some role in the plot.

9. Just make Shepard and VS into best buddies anyway, regardless of the player's feelings. Give no options to remove them from your crew. Give no options to be angry about Horizon. Give no options to act coldly towards VS. Give no option not to be tightly involved with them throughout the game (I mean plot points like VS being taken hostage or heroically holding the line while Shepard is hurrying to save them.) - This is the only solution that's going to really ****** me off.

Wow, the more I think about ME, the more it seems like relationships is the most essential part of it, to me.

I can definitely see your point on this. Horizon was small potatoes to many people, but if you romanced Ashley, you got nothing, but grief. While I'm hoping for option 1, it is likely that we will get something along the lines of option 2 or option 4.
 
Hot can smooth over a lot of ruffled feathers these days.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

knightnblu wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If a higher ranking member of the military was encountered working for Al Qaeda by lower ranking officers, they'd still treat him like a superior officer just because no-one had formally charged him with treason?

Guilt can only come about as the result of a conviction. If not, the charge becomes the conviction and people are automatically guilty until proven innocent with the burden of proof resting on the accused. While there are substantial differences between civilian and military justice, the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty is the heart and soul of both systems of justice in the United States.
 
Further, Shepard has not been charged nor convicted of any crime. I expect that will change in ME3 and there are 300K+ reasons for that.

You don't need to be found guilty in a court of law on charges of treason to be "a traitor". You just need to betray someone. Saren was still a traitor even before he was legally found guilty of it.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[redbaron76]

One important fact you all seem to be missing, Shepard was listed as KIA by System alliance. There fore he is no longer part of Service as per se. But it can also be said that he might be undercover and there fore Ashley calling him a traitor might be part of his cover story. Last time I checked if a soldier is listed KIA he is no longer active or placed on reserve list.

[redbaron76]

And yes Ash is still my girl, even after what she said on horizon.

[Iakus]

laecraft wrote...

I can't wait to see how the writers of VS are going to dig themselves out of the grave that's Horizon. I can see several possible solutions:

1. Exceptional writing, with the Horizon issue fully addressed. (way too much work)

2. Just make VS look hot. New players aren't going to care, as long as the character looks hot.

3. Ignore the Horizon issue completely. A horde of VS-mancers consider it an non-issue, and don't care anyway. As long as they can have hot make-up sex with VS, they're happy. A lot of other players were alienated by the Horizon forever, and it's probably going to be too much work to win them back.

4. A mix of the above, with a half-hearted attempt on VS' part to mend things over, ignore the issue passive-aggressive style, point out that we're in the middle of the invasion (as if we weren't during the Horizon), so we don't have the time to speak, or become even angrier with Shepard for some reason (I'm sure VS can think of anything, won't be the first time).

Outcome: the VS-mancers are happy to have VS on their crew. The players who were insulted by the Horizon are further insulted by the inadequate repercussions, and go to a different LI. New players happily make out with the new, improved, hot VS, not giving a damn about the scene they never saw.

5. Reveal that VS has been indoctrinated all along (the writers' magical wand for explaining any odd behavior.)

6. Kill off VS and give Shepard an option to save them. If Shepard doesn't take that option, he's obviously too pissed off to ever hope to make up with him.

7. Make VS commit an act of heroic sacrifice and let Shepard feel like a jerk for not loving them.

8. A peaceful, non-violent solution - just give us an option to remove VS from our crew. Way to simple and sensible to expect it's going to be implemented. And VS was kept immortal through ME2 for a reason, so I expect they're going to play some role in the plot.

9. Just make Shepard and VS into best buddies anyway, regardless of the player's feelings. Give no options to remove them from your crew. Give no options to be angry about Horizon. Give no options to act coldly towards VS. Give no option not to be tightly involved with them throughout the game (I mean plot points like VS being taken hostage or heroically holding the line while Shepard is hurrying to save them.) - This is the only solution that's going to really ****** me off.

Wow, the more I think about ME, the more it seems like relationships is the most essential part of it, to me.

Sadly, I'm betting on a combination of 2 and 3.  I mean, look at what they've already shown of Ash and Kaidan's new looks.  Toss in a lame "I wasn't thinking straight, we still cool?" dialogue and we're good to go.  Horizon will have had as much effect on the VS as Dr Saleon had on Garrus.

And worst of all, I'll still be happy to have them back.

Modifié par iakus, 12 juillet 2011 - 05:17 .

[knightnblu]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If a higher ranking member of the military was encountered working for Al Qaeda by lower ranking officers, they'd still treat him like a superior officer just because no-one had formally charged him with treason?

Guilt can only come about as the result of a conviction. If not, the charge becomes the conviction and people are automatically guilty until proven innocent with the burden of proof resting on the accused. While there are substantial differences between civilian and military justice, the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty is the heart and soul of both systems of justice in the United States.
 
Further, Shepard has not been charged nor convicted of any crime. I expect that will change in ME3 and there are 300K+ reasons for that.

You don't need to be found guilty in a court of law on charges of treason to be "a traitor". You just need to betray someone. Saren was still a traitor even before he was legally found guilty of it.

And Article 7 of the Unified Code of Military Justice empowers her as an NCO to arrest him and take him into custody (provided of course that a similar code is in service with the Alliance), but she didn't. If she really thought that Shepard was guilty of treason, she would have had every legal obligation to arrest him because of the continuing nature of his alleged offense. Therefore I suspect that she does not really believe him to be a traitor in the legal or official meaning of that word.
 
That is why I believe that she meant the term "traitor" in the personal sense and not in the official sense. But the fact remains that the VS was still insubordinate to a superior officer. Ultimately however, the UCMJ, military culture, and military protocol has limited meaning in the Mass Effect series. This is because the vast majority of players are civilians and frankly, wouldn't understand it because it is not their day to day. This relegates such things to window dressing  and set decoration in order to make the characters more accessible to most folks and I'm cool with that.

For me, Ashley's behavior has vastly different meaning than it does for many people and that's ok. You play it the way you see it and have fun. But I still like talking about it

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...

One important fact you all seem to be missing, Shepard was listed as KIA by System alliance. There fore he is no longer part of Service as per se. But it can also be said that he might be undercover and there fore Ashley calling him a traitor might be part of his cover story. Last time I checked if a soldier is listed KIA he is no longer active or placed on reserve list.

Alright, one simple question: Is Shepard alive? If Shepard is alive then how can he be KIA? If what you are saying were true, then there was a combat vet in 'Nam that got way screwed over when he was listed as KIA and wasn't allowed to go home when he was found alive. In fact, he went to war with the Army to get them to keep paying his BAQ for his family back in the States so that his kids would have something to eat. Long story short, it took a letter to Nixon to get that mess squared away.
 
How is Shepard any different?

[Aedral]

Ash is still my girl, because of what she said on Horizon. She stuck with her guns and the information she had on hand, even if it put her against Shepard. She heard what was said about Shepards return and had orders to investigate possible Cerberus involvement in the Colony abduction. The Illusive Man even leaked information about Shepards involvement with Cerberus (quite possibly exaggerating it to make Shepard depend on Cerberus and drive a wedge between Shepard and any other who might take TIMs place). Ashley took everything she knew and didn't like how it was shaping up, so when Shepard appeared, in a ship with Cerberus' logo, with Cerberus companions and even Cerberus armor (if you equip it), it was a dead giveaway that her investigation proved correct about Shepards links with a terrorist organization. She did not just throw herself at Shepard when he showed up, she showed remarkable strength of character for standing up in what she knew. I love that in Ash and my Shepard will stay loyal to her until the day he dies (again)

[Herbert West]

Ashley Williams is the best. Not because of looks or personality, but because she has the same name as Bruce Campbell's character from Evil Dead.