1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Paula Deen]

Siansonea II wrote...

Good points! I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. Honestly, I would love it if Shepard has to 'win her back'—especially if it's not as easy as talk-talk-talk-sex, like it has been in previous games.

You realize that the majority of the players/fandom still balk at/hate Ashley for not backing Shepard 100% (and even calling him a traitor). Comparing Ashley/Kaidan to the other ME1 romance option, Ash starts to seem the least loyal of the LI's.

[Sshodan]

If I recall correctly it was mentioned (I think it was one of the books, but it was a while since I red it so I'm shaky on the source) that the Alliance never listed Shepard as KIA, in fact they did not acknowledge his/her death at all - at the time of the Normandy indecent the recruitment sored, and the moral was so high everyones head was spinning, Shepard was a model of humanity and on every recruitment poster out there. Coming out and proclaiming the first human specter dead would have been a disaster, so Alliance simply pretended that Shep is alive.
So as far as the paperwork goes we are alive and well, and an active member of the Alliance still.
I asume it's although a reason why the Alliance did not bother with recovering Shepard's body or even his/her tags. It would have taken Liara at last a weak to get rescued and organize the recovery, if the Alliance wanted the body they would have had more than enough time to get it.
Just sharing the info

Modifié par Sshodan, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:31 .

[redbaron76]

Then it is simple if shepard is alive and alliance is considering him ac tive the shepard working with a known terrorist organization makes him a traitor. Shepard died, and was resurected by cerberus. His file in the aliance stated KIA. But we all agree that shepard is alive and active duty personel of system alliance. Therefore working for cerberus with out orders from alliance command which we all know he does not have makes him a traitor. So ashely calling him a traitor is not mistake like you state knight. And after all she was emotional. Two years ago she saw shepard get spaced and die. Then she hears rumors that he is alive and working for cerberus. Then also gets news that cerberus might be involved with missing colonies, and gets attacked by collectors and is left helpless. Then after collector leave she sees shepard alive and well, and low and behold he is working for or with cerberus. So I do understand where she comes from calling my shepard a traitor and am not upset because in a way she is right my shepard is traitor in a way. He is operationg with cerberus as an active alliance personel.

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote...
 
Ultimately however, the UCMJ, military culture, and military protocol has limited meaning in the Mass Effect series. This is because the vast majority of players are civilians and frankly, wouldn't understand it because it is not their day to day. This relegates such things to window dressing  and set decoration in order to make the characters more accessible to most folks and I'm cool with that.

For me, Ashley's behavior has vastly different meaning than it does for many people and that's ok. You play it the way you see it and have fun. But I still like talking about it

I'm not so sure about that Knight... my Canon Shepard for instance; is Colonial/War Hero. When first on the Normandy SR-2 .While sureying the various decks of the ship.BioWare gave the player the option of saying to Engineer Ken & Gabby either  " Hello" or "Shape up!" I chose the latter.

Ken: You came all the way down here to see us?!

Gabby: (Salutes Shepard and then says) Your speaking to our Commanding Officer!

Shepard: I didn't hear an "officer on deck!" I run this ship military... You two think this is all a joke?!"

Ken: Yes sir.I mean.No sir!

Gabby: It won't happen again sir... "

Shepard Commander: At ease...

And while talking to Yeoman Kelly Chambers you can choose to either be formal or casual with her...

Is Ashley Still your girl?

While having compassion is very important to me.I must confess that I'm not to good with forgiveness... I understand all the various arguments for or against it."We all fall short of the glory of God" Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" The apostle Peter went so far as to ask Jesus how many times should he forgive someone who did him wrong.

I see all this and I am even able to recognise what does allow me on occasion to forgive people.Simply the fact that I have done others wrong in the past and i would not want them to hold a grudge against me today, b/c I'm not the same person now who wronged them then...

But here's the hiccup... In my view, the only thing that gives life true value and meaning, is not only all the various things we can learn and experience, but  that actions have consequences.Some people speak of "unconditional love" as though it is a good thing.Perhaps in some cases it is, but ultimately: What that means is,Nothing you do matters.You are made into a non-entity.But we all know how the world really works.

If you mistreat a person, place or thing.If you fail to change the oil in your car or neglect to uproot weeds from your garden or ignore someone's call one to many times.The car, is not going to be able to perform at its optimal ability.The garden is going to be ruined.The friend will stop calling.

While I am not big on forgivness, I do believe very strongly in Redemption.But as to how the Virmire Survivor can redeem themself in my eyes.I do not know. I do not know what they can say or do, to make things betwixt us like they once were...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:48 .

[Zubie]

I think you're looking into a bit too much...

[ubermensch007]

easygame88 wrote...

I think you're looking into a bit too much...

Ha ha ha ha i think you might be under the impression that my last post was based on nothing more than what happened on Horizon... Its not - In fact. For me; the altercation with the Virmire Survivor on Horizon is nothing next to what is my real gripe with them... <_<

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/7811135#7811135

[Sshodan]

@ redbaron76
Yet Shep was never formally discharged as a Specter as I understand, and his Specter position can be formally renewed peaty soon after the start of the game. While Shepard is in Specters he does not follow Alliance and does not report to them.
So if he let's say decided to go undercover in terrorist organization he can do it without asking anyone for permission, or notifying the Alliance. That's what Specters are all about after all.
Shepard legally can't be a traitor even if he destroyed the Alliance and blew up earth - as a Specter his allegiance right now is to citadel council, and no laws govern his actions but what they let him get away with.

Modifié par Sshodan, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[Zubie]

You're comparing Shepard to Jesus 

Modifié par easygame88, 13 juillet 2011 - 09:45 .

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...

Then it is simple if shepard is alive and alliance is considering him ac tive the shepard working with a known terrorist organization makes him a traitor. Shepard died, and was resurected by cerberus. His file in the aliance stated KIA. But we all agree that shepard is alive and active duty personel of system alliance. Therefore working for cerberus with out orders from alliance command which we all know he does not have makes him a traitor.

Not necessarily. Shepard's status as a Spectre makes treason a much harder charge to sustain. This is because Shepard no longer falls under the routine laws unless the Council declares him rogue or he betrays the Council. While I am certain that the Alliance is very much interested in why he is working with Cerberus, they can't really go after him for it.

ME3 is going to start with Shepard in some sort of legal proceeding. I suspect that he is going to be charged as a war criminal for the deaths of 304K Batarians with his service in Cerberus being brought into court to take apart his character and integrity. Like the Quarian on Freedom's Progress, who is going to believe that somebody spent two years and 4 billion credits to resurrect him? With Project Lazarus' records gone and Miranda being a top level Lieutenant for TIM, her word won't count for much as a witness and I can't imagine Ashley having any kind words for him as a witness after Horizon.

Therefore, it is a good thing that the Reapers interrupt the trial because if they didn't, Shepard would likely end up making big rocks into little rocks at a military prison or executed.

[whywhywhywhy]

I decided to redo my post I finally read throught the whole thread and decided that my post didn't convey my proper feelings on the subject.  I guess I tried to avoid it because I didn't want to make a long post as it's a touchy subject.

I thankfully don't need to make a long post as knightblu and laecraft both nailed exactly how I feel about the situation, verbatim.  I think the only aspect that's missing is that sheperd need not make any apology to Ash if she's unwilling to hear him out.  A lot of people condemn Sheperd but he is in this situation, blameless.  No matter what he should have attempted TIM was there to poison the waters and burn his bridges to force him to work with them to save the colonies.  TIM did this numerous times in the games it's obvious he wants to "possess" Sheperd as one of his many tools.  Bioware omitted any visible struggle (a mistake on their part) for Sheperd to break free of Cerberus but he wouldn't have the resources on his own to fight this threat.

That being said as knightblu said Ash had already made up her mind  Sheperd couldn't convince her and she had no real questions for him.  The other major side of this argument everyone is discounting is he was dead/ in a coma!  Everyone highlights on how he was gone for two years and how Ash changed(something I'm interested in) but what about Sheperd who wakes up 2 years later and everything's gone to hell ?  I feel everyone is ignoring the tremendous mental stress and trauma a Coma has on a person.  Everything they've known is changed in someway different then remembered and all aspects surounding his life has progressed without him.  So when he met Ashley though he was out for two years it would only have felt like a week or two had past since he'd last seen her and she attacks him.

Ash claims to love him if she's romanced,stating that she was hurt for so long when he died but when she found out he's alive she doesn't look for closure, a reasonable explaination or even give you two hours for them to hash things out.  Just a few hurtful words then she's out.  The man couldn't even get two hours (first hour spent arguing, scond hour working things out)

How can Ash justify her position on Horizon ?  Short answer she can't, she didn't attempt to hear his side of the story she just reacted and I'm sure bw won't handle it correctly though I'd be pleasantly surprised if they did.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:35 .

[knightnblu]

whywhywhywhy, that is why I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. Many people have posted that it was the stress of seeing Shepard alive, the fact that he was working for Cerberus that made him a traitor, and that by betraying the Alliance he was betraying Ashley as well. I do agree that that is a partial explanation, but it doesn't account for most of her behavior in my opinion.

That's why I am looking for some kind of simultaneous conflict that would magnify her reaction. If the above reasons were coupled with her romantic investment in another creating an intensely personal dilemma for her, that could do it because how is she supposed to resolve that dilemma, who does she choose? How does she explain to Shepard that she is attached to someone else? How does she tell the other person that seeing Shepard has rekindled feelings that she had thought were dealt with? Who does she hurt? This situation places Williams between a rock and a hard place with no easy way out. In that context, Shepard's admission that he is associated with Cerberus offers her an easy way out of that dilemma. Alternatively, there could be a child from their previous union.

As a mother, how does Ashley explain to their child that Dad's a traitor? Knowing her background, this could be a huge issue for her. In Mass Effect, Williams had only her own well being to consider when the Normandy was stolen. If she had a child, she would have to consider the child's welfare above her own. If Shepard really did betray the Alliance, that child would have a rougher time than she and her father did because of what happened to General Williams. Ashley would not want that life for her offspring.

Additionally, we don't know how long she was watching Shepard before she approached him and that means that we don't know what her thought processes were prior to deciding to speak with him. She could have been going over the consequences of the rumors being true in her head before she even approached him thereby priming and increasing her reaction.

Both of these scenarios are purely outside of canon, but they could explain a great deal of Ashley's behavior if explored because of the conflict of powerful emotions tearing at her. Part of me expects BioWare to minimize Horizon, but the larger part of me suspects that they know that it is a big deal whether they wanted it to be or not. That spells opportunity for the writers because they can introduce elements to the story that a "Hey Shepard, sorry about that Horizon thing," "Don't sweat it Ash, I know it was a big surprise" type of handling cannot.

This is because it gives them the opportunity to more fully develop Ashley and to flesh out her character and to add other dimensions to the relationship between the VS and Shepard. But in order to do that, they are going to have to find a way to repair the trust between Shepard and his ME LI in ME3 or let it go. There is no reason, given the need to gather allies, that this cannot be done while traveling to the various locations in order to accomplish both.

If BioWare makes Ashley's new paramour James Vega, that opens a whole new vista for Shepard. How does he deal with that? How does he react to Vega? To Ashley? I can think of a number of paragon/renegade options for that set up right off the top of my head. From seeing Ashley in Vega's embrace and reacting to it, to thinking about who to send to their death on a suicide mission, that could make for some very interesting moral choices. Jealousy is a powerful emotion and one not explored in RPGs so far as I am aware. Of the two options outlined above, I think that the romantic rival is the best one because it is the strongest.

This is why I seriously doubt that Ashley is going to swoon for you in ME3. This course also intensifies the differences in the perspective of the passing of time between both you and Ashley. If you want her back, you are going to have to fight for her. So the question remains, is Ashley still your girl or not?

[redbaron76]

Knight you make a good point, but in the good bioware way we all know that bioware will not introduce competition for ashleys afection so late in the trilogy. I do not think that we will have to compete for ashley. I seem to have read in one article that ashley will have to compete with the girl shepard hooked up in mE 2, can not recall which magazine stated that, i thingk it was game informer. We will probably have to gain ahsleys trust again in some way. Or Bioware might just make her swoon, to make up to all ashley fans since we did no get anything in ME 2 like liara fans did.

[Abispa]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE how on Horizon Ashley tells the mechanic, "You're in the presence of a god!" about Shepard before telling him/her how disappointed she is that Shepard APPARENTLY sold out to Cerberus and walks off.

I also love how critics complained that she was skeptical about an infamous terrorist organization that murders Alliance officials and conducts illegal biological experiments (like how to control alien life forms -- Garrus, anyone?). She should have taken Shepard's word without hesitation. Forget Joker's report about Shepard getting spaced, puncturing his/her space suit and plummeting toward the planet. All you need to bring someone back from that is two years, all the top scientist, and an unlimited bank account.

I bet Ashley is going to REALLY embarrassed in ME3. Yeah, that's right. She should get down on her knees and BEG for forgiveness for being so mean to Shepard and forcing the poor player to pick up another LI in ME2 so he can get a watered down snuggle-bunny scene. B***h!

[Abispa]

I was on one of the Ashley support sites and they were worrying that the Ashley critics will begin whining in earnest once it becomes common knowledge that Ashley/Kaidan is going to be the one escorting Shepard to his/her tribunal over the events of "Arrival." Me? I don't care.

Many Ashley critics have used so much twisted logic from a few scenes to promote the idea that she's a xenophobic religious nut who longs to hurt poor little Shepard's feelings by not staring at him longingly and stroking his ego.

I'm not saying that the writers have done a perfect job developing her, but at least she hasn't become a Shepard groupie, a condition that even claimed Miranda by the end of ME2. Ashley has kept her independence and dignity, and now stand alongside the new-and-improved LotSB Liara as a woman worthy to stand beside Shepard because she is capable of being her own woman and not just a satellite of Shepard.

So long as the writers don't destroy her in ME3, I'll be more than happy to consider my Ashley support as the acquired taste of a select audience.

[knightnblu]

redbaron76 wrote...
 
Knight you make a good point, but in the good bioware way we all know that bioware will not introduce competition for ashleys afection so late in the trilogy. I do not think that we will have to compete for ashley. I seem to have read in one article that ashley will have to compete with the girl shepard hooked up in mE 2, can not recall which magazine stated that, i thingk it was game informer. We will probably have to gain ahsleys trust again in some way. Or Bioware might just make her swoon, to make up to all ashley fans since we did no get anything in ME 2 like liara fans did.

 
 
You may be right, but I still think that the introduction of a rival would add an interesting obstacle for Shepard. I certainly don't know anything to the contrary, but as one of the fans who was in the position of being the target of Ashley's fire, something needs to explain her shocking behavior on Horizon. I only suggest a romantic rival as one possibility to explain her actions.
 
I just can't see BioWare casually glossing over Horizon by throwing Ashley into Shepard's arms like nothing ever happened. I just don't see that in either character's makeup. Both are battle hardened combat vets with strong personalities. Just throwing Williams into Shep's arms with a sorry, don't worry about it dialog does an injustice to both of the characters in my estimation.
 
By taking the events on Horizon and extending them into ME3, BioWare can do something that no other company has done before: break new ground in RPG romance, turning a potential problem into an asset. Is that small compared to the main plot? Sure it is, but it is the little details that stick with you about experiences. As a vehicle to explore the characters, I think that it would really work very well. You keep the player off balance as he tries to figure out where he stands with Ash while trying to save the galaxy at large. Essentially, the dynamic between Ashley and Shepard becomes a miniature reflection of the Reaper invasion and Shepard has to fight to win them both. In my mind that presents a nice symmetry to the story.
 
If he wins Ashley, but loses the galaxy that ends any hope for the future. If he wins the galaxy, but loses Ashley that ends Shepard's personal happiness. He has to win them both if he is to come out ahead all the way around. As Okeer once said, "I like that part, it has weight."
 
Will BioWare see it my way? I have no clue.

[knightnblu]

Abispa wrote...
 
I was on one of the Ashley support sites and they were worrying that the Ashley critics will begin whining in earnest once it becomes common knowledge that Ashley/Kaidan is going to be the one escorting Shepard to his/her tribunal over the events of "Arrival." Me? I don't care.

 
I wouldn't be surprised by that. In fact, it makes a certain degree of sense. I fully expected to have to answer for the 304,000 lives I took to stop the Reaper invasion. I did what I had to do. It is up to the Alliance to decide if I was right or wrong to do it. If that means that I have to pay a criminal penalty for my actions, then so be it. I don't harbor any ill will toward the VS for insuring that I answer for my actions. That is their job and I expect them to do it and to do it well.
 

Abispa wrote...
 
Many Ashley critics have used so much twisted logic from a few scenes to promote the idea that she's a xenophobic religious nut who longs to hurt poor little Shepard's feelings by not staring at him longingly and stroking his ego.

 
With all due respect, Williams is xenophobic. As evidence of this are her comments aboard the Citadel, comments made aboard the Normandy SR1, and comments made on Horizon. Additionally, she has made comments that indicated a positive acceptance of Terra Firma's political ideology. Therefore, your assertion regarding her lack of xenophobia is proven false. I have seen nothing to indicate that she possesses religious views that are extremist and frankly, they seem fairly mainstream to me.
 

Abispa wrote...
 
I'm not saying that the writers have done a perfect job developing her, but at least she hasn't become a Shepard groupie, a condition that even claimed Miranda by the end of ME2. Ashley has kept her independence and dignity, and now stand alongside the new-and-improved LotSB Liara as a woman worthy to stand beside Shepard because she is capable of being her own woman and not just a satellite of Shepard.
 
So long as the writers don't destroy her in ME3, I'll be more than happy to consider my Ashley support as the acquired taste of a select audience.

 
Miranda is not a Shepard groupie. In fact, she begins with a mild hostility towards Shepard. As she witnesses him in action, she begins to question her assumptions about him and about her own perceptions, having lived a sheltered life under her father and then under Cerberus. These shelters act as filters for her perceptions and with Shepard, she begins to understand how she was handicapped by that experience.
 
If you prefer a hostile Williams to accompany your Shepard, so be it. You paid your money just as I did and you deserve to get as much pleasure and enjoyment out of it as you can. But I can't see how that contributes to unit cohesion. Nor can I imagine how she could be trusted to carry out your orders if she is always going to question/oppose them. But if that works for you, then great. Me? I prefer a subordinate that is cooperative and follows orders. Life is too short to waste it bird dogging your junior officers because you cannot trust them.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
With all due respect, Williams is xenophobic. As evidence of this are her comments aboard the Citadel, comments made aboard the Normandy SR1, and comments made on Horizon. Additionally, she has made comments that indicated a positive acceptance of Terra Firma's political ideology. Therefore, your assertion regarding her lack of xenophobia is proven false. I have seen nothing to indicate that she possesses religious views that are extremist and frankly, they seem fairly mainstream to me.

Have you taken Ashley to the Terra Firma rally?  She does not like them.

Her thoughts on aliens can be summed up thus:

"I don't think humans have some kind of divine mandate, if that's what you mean.
I don't think humans are superior"

"I don't think we should turn down
allies. I just don't think we should bet on them staying allies" 

[ApplesauceBandit]

Nah, both of my Shep's that romanced her found someone better (Tali, Miranda ;D) and besides after the whole Horizon scene i just felt like punching her in the face.

[Sshodan]

Another side note
knightnblu has some interesting ideas, the problem thou is that Ash can be alive and well in ME3 with female Shep as well. The fact that invalidates most of the romantic explanations for Horizon, she can't be romantically conflicted about Shep, or have a baby with him because ti may turn out "he" was a woman and just a friend.
The same is for reconciliation - whatever the writers think of should work for the non romantic friendship situation as well, and rebuild the trust effectively.
What I am personalty afraid of is the classical "I was under surveillance and I needed them to think that I want nothing to do with you, but in truth I never doubted you for a minute" thing. Yep it will effectively invalidate Horizon as far as the logic goes, but in truth it'll hardly feel like resolution at all.

[knightnblu]

iakus wrote...
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
With all due respect, Williams is xenophobic. As evidence of this are her comments aboard the Citadel, comments made aboard the Normandy SR1, and comments made on Horizon. Additionally, she has made comments that indicated a positive acceptance of Terra Firma's political ideology. Therefore, your assertion regarding her lack of xenophobia is proven false. I have seen nothing to indicate that she possesses religious views that are extremist and frankly, they seem fairly mainstream to me.

 
Have you taken Ashley to the Terra Firma rally? She does not like them.
 
Her thoughts on aliens can be summed up thus:
 
"I don't think humans have some kind of divine mandate, if that's what you mean.
I don't think humans are superior"
 
"I don't think we should turn down
allies. I just don't think we should bet on them staying allies"

 
 
No, she does not like it's leader. Of the Terra Firma ideology, she says that they are noble goals. Further, these goals are not so different from Cerberus' perspective which is not surprising given Cerberus' machinations to insure that the Terra Firma party's platform was inline with their political beliefs. While tooling around on the Citadel, she says that She can't tell the animals from the aliens. Onboard the SR1, she says that the aliens will feed us to the enemy when push comes to shove and calls them bug eyed monsters. On Horizon she says that she is no fan of Aliens, but that she isn't extremist. Replace "aliens" with any ethnic group and you end up with a racial statement.
 
Therefore, I believe that you are mistaken in your view. Everybody has character flaws, this is Ashley's. It was also Navigator Pressley's. He got over his own prejudices, but Williams has yet to catch up to a more enlightened view.
 

Sshodan wrote...
 
Another side note
knightnblu has some interesting ideas, the problem thou is that Ash can be alive and well in ME3 with female Shep as well. The fact that invalidates most of the romantic explanations for Horizon, she can't be romantically conflicted about Shep, or have a baby with him because ti may turn out "he" was a woman and just a friend.
The same is for reconciliation - whatever the writers think of should work for the non romantic friendship situation as well, and rebuild the trust effectively.
What I am personalty afraid of is the classical "I was under surveillance and I needed them to think that I want nothing to do with you, but in truth I never doubted you for a minute" thing. Yep it will effectively invalidate Horizon as far as the logic goes, but in truth it'll hardly feel like resolution at all.

 
 
You got me there. But the romance and non-romance are naturally divergent anyway. All that needs to happen is for another scenario to replace the romantic links, but maintain the same level of conflict. For example being a direct rival for authority. Ashley is ambitious and looking to move up, she believes that femshep is wrong and that she can do a better job. Instant setting for a continuing cat fight. Out in the real world, Psychologists call this the "dominant b!tch syndrome" because each is a strong personality that is attempting to establish dominance over the other and mirrors the alpha male maneuvering.
 
While true that it doesn't have the juice of the romance scenario, there would be sufficient meat for renegade and paragon options between them.

[SerraAdvocate]

Williams is not xenophobic so much as she is a realist, in the political science/international relations sense of the term. She sees Humanity as a country, and she sees alien races as countries, and basically asserts - as realists do - that you can't count on your allies because each country is always going to look out for its own interests first, and if not helping you in the clutch is in their interest, they're not going to help you.

This isn't xenophobia, because the fundamental basis of the argument isn't that they're aliens, it's that they're different states. It's like going into WWII saying "I don't trust the Soviets because they'll turn on us the fist chance they get," or "I don't trust the French because they'll turn on us the first chance they get." You can hold that opinion without being racist against the Russians or the French.

Now, she certainly has some xenophobic elements to her character. But her political stance, the whole "Earth First" part of her character, all of that isn't (purely) attributable to those elements. My character is pretty sure the council will betray Earth as soon as it becomes necessary - the council did it to the Krogan in the past - but he doesn't dislike them because they're aliens. Their alienness is independent of his distrust.

Modifié par Helm505, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:33 .