1035 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

laecraft wrote...
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
No, she does not like it's leader. Of the Terra Firma ideology, she says that they are noble goals.
 

 
So does Kaidan. That might have something to do with the fact that they're indeed noble goals.
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
On Horizon she says that she is no fan of Aliens, but that she isn't extremist. Replace "aliens" with any ethnic group and you end up with a racial statement.
 

 
Replace all words in the sentence, and you'll end up with an entirely different sentence. I suggest the word "Reapers."

 
As far as the Terra Firma party's ideology goes, I am afraid that we will have to disagree. They are isolationist, mistrustful, and it is often that more extreme ideologies have been clothed in less extremist rhetoric to win over hearts and minds. I don't trust them at all.
 
So far as your last two sentences, I am not sure of your meaning. Could you clarify?

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

No, she does not like it's leader. Of the Terra Firma ideology, she says that they are noble goals. Further, these goals are not so different from Cerberus' perspective which is not surprising given Cerberus' machinations to insure that the Terra Firma party's platform was inline with their political beliefs. While tooling around on the Citadel, she says that She can't tell the animals from the aliens. Onboard the SR1, she says that the aliens will feed us to the enemy when push comes to shove and calls them bug eyed monsters. On Horizon she says that she is no fan of Aliens, but that she isn't extremist. Replace "aliens" with any ethnic group and you end up with a racial statement.

I believe she said that they had noble goals.  Past tense.  But they have since gone "off message" and are now...I believe the term Ash herself used was "xenophobic jackals"

The "aliens from the animals" statement is a known bug.  She's only supposed to say that about the Keepers.  And, lets face it, even after thousands of years of occupying the Citadel, no one knew if they were sentient or not.

As to the bear and the dog analogy, I't s a completely fair (if bleak) outlook on galactic politics.  Heck, one could argue the Council was already using human colonies as a buffer in the Traverse

"I'm no fan of the Reapers, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist"
"I'm no fan of the geth, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist"
I'm no fan of the Collectors, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist"
"I'm no fan of the Council, but Cerberus has a history of being extremist"


 

Therefore, I believe that you are mistaken in your view. Everybody has character flaws, this is Ashley's. It was also Navigator Pressley's. He got over his own prejudices, but Williams has yet to catch up to a more enlightened view.

Everybody does have character flaws.  It's part of what makes them itneresting.  But racism isn't Ash's.  Her flaws are ignorance (being blacklisted meant she was stuck on backwater colonies with no alien contact) and cynicism.  (She's inclined to think the worst of people and believe they are generally self-serving.  Aliens and human).

Her distrust of aliens does not come from the fact that they're alien, but from the fact that they are beholden to organizations outside the Alliance.  Organizations that may not have humanity's best interests at heart.  Thus her line about not trusting that allies will stay allies.  As fortunes shift, they may decide they no longer need the Alliance.

[upsettingshorts]

The problem with the "Ashley is racist" arguments is that her statements work much better if you replace "Asari" and "Turian" with "North Korean" and "Saudi" than they do if you replace them with "asians" or "arabians."  She's talking about them in the context of their being (in her mind, opposing) nations, not non-humans.

She's a nationalist in that sense, not a racist. She has political, not racial reservations about the other races. That the other races are both a separate species and a separate political identity from the human Alliance is cause for her reputation as being an "alien-hater" but it's not where her thought process is coming from, it's just easily misinterpreted. She is, as iakus says, a political cynic.

By the same token, Cerberus is not racist either.  What they are however are hyper-aggressive nationalists, also known as jingoists.  Their actions aren't motivated by their belief in the inherent racial inferiority of the other species, only a cynical and single-minded devotion to looking out for their own national (in this case, human) interests.

Navigator Presley, on the other hand...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .

[Geeblerful]

Nah, I left her for Tali.

[whywhywhywhy]

knightnblu wrote...

whywhywhywhy, that is why I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. Many people have posted that it was the stress of seeing Shepard alive, the fact that he was working for Cerberus that made him a traitor, and that by betraying the Alliance he was betraying Ashley as well. I do agree that that is a partial explanation, but it doesn't account for most of her behavior in my opinion.

That's why I am looking for some kind of simultaneous conflict that would magnify her reaction. If the above reasons were coupled with her romantic investment in another creating an intensely personal dilemma for her, that could do it because how is she supposed to resolve that dilemma, who does she choose? How does she explain to Shepard that she is attached to someone else? How does she tell the other person that seeing Shepard has rekindled feelings that she had thought were dealt with? Who does she hurt? This situation places Williams between a rock and a hard place with no easy way out. In that context, Shepard's admission that he is associated with Cerberus offers her an easy way out of that dilemma. Alternatively, there could be a child from their previous union.

As a mother, how does Ashley explain to their child that Dad's a traitor? Knowing her background, this could be a huge issue for her. In Mass Effect, Williams had only her own well being to consider when the Normandy was stolen. If she had a child, she would have to consider the child's welfare above her own. If Shepard really did betray the Alliance, that child would have a rougher time than she and her father did because of what happened to General Williams. Ashley would not want that life for her offspring.

Additionally, we don't know how long she was watching Shepard before she approached him and that means that we don't know what her thought processes were prior to deciding to speak with him. She could have been going over the consequences of the rumors being true in her head before she even approached him thereby priming and increasing her reaction.

Both of these scenarios are purely outside of canon, but they could explain a great deal of Ashley's behavior if explored because of the conflict of powerful emotions tearing at her. Part of me expects BioWare to minimize Horizon, but the larger part of me suspects that they know that it is a big deal whether they wanted it to be or not. That spells opportunity for the writers because they can introduce elements to the story that a "Hey Shepard, sorry about that Horizon thing," "Don't sweat it Ash, I know it was a big surprise" type of handling cannot.

This is because it gives them the opportunity to more fully develop Ashley and to flesh out her character and to add other dimensions to the relationship between the VS and Shepard. But in order to do that, they are going to have to find a way to repair the trust between Shepard and his ME LI in ME3 or let it go. There is no reason, given the need to gather allies, that this cannot be done while traveling to the various locations in order to accomplish both.

If BioWare makes Ashley's new paramour James Vega, that opens a whole new vista for Shepard. How does he deal with that? How does he react to Vega? To Ashley? I can think of a number of paragon/renegade options for that set up right off the top of my head. From seeing Ashley in Vega's embrace and reacting to it, to thinking about who to send to their death on a suicide mission, that could make for some very interesting moral choices. Jealousy is a powerful emotion and one not explored in RPGs so far as I am aware. Of the two options outlined above, I think that the romantic rival is the best one because it is the strongest.

This is why I seriously doubt that Ashley is going to swoon for you in ME3. This course also intensifies the differences in the perspective of the passing of time between both you and Ashley. If you want her back, you are going to have to fight for her. So the question remains, is Ashley still your girl or not?

no, I feel she'd have to fight to get my Sheperd back.  Working under anderson/udina she'd have access to the mission reports you submit to hacket and can judge for herself what it is your about cerberus or not.  I just feel too strongly that the issue won't be properly address.  To me Ash has the weakest romance out of all the LI possibilities, what happen to no man left behind ? 

Even if dead she should have went back to retrieve Sheperd's body/remains for burial just from a military perspective (honor the fallen/don't let the body fall in enemy hands) and given her background the desire to do so should have been amplified.  Yet it was Liara fighting to retrieve sheperd's body albeit for different reasons, even as a non LI she should have tried to get not only Sheperd's body but all of the fallen.  And had she tried to she would have found potentially found out, given her path and Liara's should have crossed that you were dead.  Regardless she would have known something a lot more then what she was aware of at horizon and imo burn the bridge between her and sheperd. 

Yet She didn't, the alliance might have tried seeing how Hackett had your dogtags...I don't know it isn't explained well.  Ash has totally fallen out of LI status for any sheperd I play however I am curious to see if they will do the story justice and explain her side of it.  I'm interested in her motivations. 

[knightnblu]

Xenophobia is defined as fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners. Asari, Turian, Hanar, etc. are all strange and foreign. Using listed example of saying that the French would turn on you in a heartbeat is an example of Xenophobia, unless of course one is French. I never said that Williams was a racist, but that she was a xenophobe. There is a distinct difference. Presley was also a xenophobe, but there were clearly racial overtones to his viewpoint. Therefore, defending Williams on the basis that she is not a racist is a red herring and patently ignores the argument.

If the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" statement was indeed a "bug," then it should have been fixed with a patch. Taken with other statements that she has made, it fits perfectly with her established character. Further, I submit that Ashley's views are symptomatic of a wider human mistrust and fear of aliens.

You see that in the Alliance, you see that with the reporter who wants to do a hit piece on you at the Citadel, and you see that reflected in the SR-1 crew. What's more, I don't really find that to be shocking. Humanity is a newcomer to the galaxy. In the ME universe we have only been circulating in the galaxy for about 30 years. That isn't a long time.

Williams is just a representation of humanity's fear of the unknown. The other races are strange and foreign, they have widely differing appearances and temperaments, and don't forget that humanity got smacked down by the Turians as a not so warm welcome. So her reaction should not be surprising in the least. Nor is it unique to humanity, as an example I give you the Batarians.

My Shepard on the other hand takes the long view. That the galaxy is a big place and we need to rely on one another in order to survive against the Reapers. That means that the races will have to learn to trust each other or perish. Stark, but that's the deal. With the Batarian husks shown at the E3 conference, the galaxy may already be down one species. That makes humanity the next race slated for extermination.

Williams, and the rest of humanity, is going to have to set aside xenophobic attitudes in order to save ourselves. Otherwise, we can say hi to the Batarians when we meet them on the other side and commiserate on our shared experience of being a Reaper victim.

[knightnblu]

whywhywhywhy said "Yet She didn't, the alliance might have tried seeing how Hackett had your dogtags...I don't know it isn't explained well. Ash has totally fallen out of LI status for any sheperd I play however I am curious to see if they will do the story justice and explain her side of it. I'm interested in her motivations."
 
I couldn't agree with you more.

[SerraAdvocate]

knightnblu wrote...

whywhywhywhy said "Yet She didn't, the alliance might have tried seeing how Hackett had your dogtags...I don't know it isn't explained well. Ash has totally fallen out of LI status for any sheperd I play however I am curious to see if they will do the story justice and explain her side of it. I'm interested in her motivations."
 
I couldn't agree with you more.

What Ashley did or didn't do in the two years Shepard was comatose we don't know. What we do know is that she was working personally for Anderson, who had her investigating Cerberus, and that she refused to join Shepard - who was working for Cerberus. Which, from her perspective, makes perfect sense. She's investigating a group she knows has some serious problems, she suspects them of working with the Reapers, and she'd just found out that Shepard was essentially resurrected by them. Is Shepard still the Shepard she knew? Maybe he's been indoctrinated. Maybe he's got one of those control chips in his brain. There's absolutely no chance that she can join him or Cerberus, because the risk that she'd be taking by doing so is much too high.

The letter she sends him later is a peace offering, albeit a cautious one, because by then Shepard's been knocking around the galaxy enough to tell that, whatever he is, he isn't a classic Cerberus operative. By then, she has some confirmation that at least some of what Shepard was telling her was true. 

Ashley is still my canon-Shep's main LI, as long as she wants to be. I don't think that Shepard owes her anything, per se, it's more like they both owe each other a chance to get to know one another again.

[knightnblu]

Helm505 wrote...
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
whywhywhywhy said "Yet She didn't, the alliance might have tried seeing how Hackett had your dogtags...I don't know it isn't explained well. Ash has totally fallen out of LI status for any sheperd I play however I am curious to see if they will do the story justice and explain her side of it. I'm interested in her motivations."
 
I couldn't agree with you more.

 
What Ashley did or didn't do in the two years Shepard was comatose we don't know. What we do know is that she was working personally for Anderson, who had her investigating Cerberus, and that she refused to join Shepard - who was working for Cerberus. Which, from her perspective, makes perfect sense. She's investigating a group she knows has some serious problems, she suspects them of working with the Reapers, and she'd just found out that Shepard was essentially resurrected by them. Is Shepard still the Shepard she knew? Maybe he's been indoctrinated. Maybe he's got one of those control chips in his brain. There's absolutely no chance that she can join him or Cerberus, because the risk that she'd be taking by doing so is much too high.
 
The letter she sends him later is a peace offering, albeit a cautious one, because by then Shepard's been knocking around the galaxy enough to tell that, whatever he is, he isn't a classic Cerberus operative. By then, she has some confirmation that at least some of what Shepard was telling her was true.
 
Ashley is still my canon-Shep's main LI, as long as she wants to be. I don't think that Shepard owes her anything, per se, it's more like they both owe each other a chance to get to know one another again.

 
But why was she investigating Cerberus? How did she get on that project to begin with? It happened because TIM wanted her on Horizon and made sure that she would be there (see previous posts for a detailed explanation if you are interested in this). I don't blame her for not joining up with Shepard. I blame her for her bad behavior and strange reaction to him. She claims to have loved him, thought that he as dead for two years, and then calls him a traitor when she sees the man that she loved alive and well? Unless something else is going on, I don't buy it and a tepid apology doesn't fix it.
 
Further, she states that she is going to tell your story to the brass and see if they believe you. This clearly indicates that she thinks that Shepard is lying to her. If the thinks that, then she doesn't trust him and if she no longer trusts you then she is no longer your LI.

[whywhywhywhy]

@helm 505

I guess my point is you'd wonder where your commander was especially if the last time you saw him he was getting his crew into escape pods. Once safe you'd think she'd inquire to your whereabouts Liara does, Ashley does not. This is immediately after the conflict not two years later. Even before reporting in she should have looked for him to see if he made it, even after joker tells her he saw him die. She should have verified it with her own eyes.

Then she wouldn't have said the "your talking to a God" comment which was so out of character. But said something along the lines of how you escaped/beat death. Maybe they could of had a rational discussion if she did anything, if she had doubts she'd take you in to be examined.

Who knows what Ashley did over the 2 year period but what's clear is that she didn't look for you immediately following the destruction of the Normandy sr1. If she had more then likely Liara and Ashley would have crossed paths or she would have ran into a SB agent. I have a feeling they are going to claim she did but it doesn't fit, it'll create a plothole.

[ManOfSteel]

On my "canon" playthrough, she sure is.

[SerraAdvocate]

knightnblu wrote...

Further, she states that she is going to tell your story to the brass and see if they believe you. This clearly indicates that she thinks that Shepard is lying to her. If the thinks that, then she doesn't trust him and if she no longer trusts you then she is no longer your LI.

Look at it from her point of view. Shepard has returned from the dead after a two year absence and he's working for people that he waged a bloody war against during the time they'd known one another. He admitted he'd been "rebuilt" by Cerberus, an organization which they had both previously distrusted. How can she take anything he says on his word? He's been compromised in fundamental ways. Maybe he's been brainwashed. Maybe he's being controlled by a control chip. Maybe he genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing, but Cerberus has fed him all kinds of false information. She was out there because the Alliance suspected Cerberus was behind the abductions, and now he shows up, at the scene of an abduction, working for Cerberus? For an organization that was on the other side? After he'd been dead? And been rebuilt by them? Nothing he said could be trusted. 

For me, it's a much bigger question why Tali or Garrus are so willing to follow him, but Ashley was always much more of a skeptic.

[SerraAdvocate]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

@helm 505

I guess my point is you'd wonder where your commander was especially if the last time you saw him he was getting his crew into escape pods. Once safe you'd think she'd inquire to your whereabouts Liara does, Ashley does not. This is immediately after the conflict not two years later. Even before reporting in she should have looked for him to see if he made it, even after joker tells her he saw him die. She should have verified it with her own eyes.

Then she wouldn't have said the "your talking to a God" comment which was so out of character. But said something along the lines of how you escaped/beat death. Maybe they could of had a rational discussion if she did anything, if she had doubts she'd take you in to be examined.

Who knows what Ashley did over the 2 year period but what's clear is that she didn't look for you immediately following the destruction of the Normandy sr1. If she had more then likely Liara and Ashley would have crossed paths or she would have ran into a SB agent. I have a feeling they are going to claim she did but it doesn't fit, it'll create a plothole.

Liara was a free agent with no prior obligations. She also had the kind of resources at her disposal that the possibility existed she could bring Shepard back to life. With Cerberus' help.

Ashley worked for the Alliance and had no resources of her own to draw upon. What was she going to do, resign her commission and go out alone with the money she had from her service pay? To find a corpse? Do you think Cerberus would have approached her, given her fierce loyalty to the Alliance (given her family history)? 

Like a good soldier, Ashley would have mourned the loss of her commander, friend, and lover, and waited for her next assignment. 

[knightnblu]

Helm505 wrote...
 

knightnblu wrote...
 
Further, she states that she is going to tell your story to the brass and see if they believe you. This clearly indicates that she thinks that Shepard is lying to her. If the thinks that, then she doesn't trust him and if she no longer trusts you then she is no longer your LI.

 
Look at it from her point of view. Shepard has returned from the dead after a two year absence and he's working for people that he waged a bloody war against during the time they'd known one another. He admitted he'd been "rebuilt" by Cerberus, an organization which they had both previously distrusted. How can she take anything he says on his word? He's been compromised in fundamental ways. Maybe he's been brainwashed. Maybe he's being controlled by a control chip. Maybe he genuinely thinks he's doing the right thing, but Cerberus has fed him all kinds of false information. She was out there because the Alliance suspected Cerberus was behind the abductions, and now he shows up, at the scene of an abduction, working for Cerberus? For an organization that was on the other side? After he'd been dead? And been rebuilt by them? Nothing he said could be trusted.
 
For me, it's a much bigger question why Tali or Garrus are so willing to follow him, but Ashley was always much more of a skeptic.

 
If she really believed that do you really think that she would just jet? Why wouldn't she at least try to help him? Nope, she just calls him a traitor, which is really messed up if her thought processes run along those lines. This is because the element of self control has been removed from Sheppard's psyche. It's tantamount to saying "Awww, poor Shepard. You're such a sad little victim. Ciao!" That is cold blooded coming from a person who claims to have loved you. Unless love means something very different for her than it does for the rest of humanity. I've had enemies that were kinder than that.
 
Finally, you are missing the most important part of Horizon and that's TIM. He set Horizon up to lure the Collectors there. He put Ashley on Horizon as bait. He placed the rumors in order to shut off Shepard's escape routes and to instill doubt on the part of his allies and to isolate him. When communications on Horizon were cut, TIM knew that his trap had sprung and he sent Shepard. I can't prove it, but I know that there was a Cerberus operative on that rock pulling the strings and setting the stage. That didn't surprise me, Ashley's actions did.
 
Ashley should have known Shepard the best, but she deserts him emotionally when he needed her the most. Worse she even adds insult to injury by calling him a traitor and a liar. If there was a betrayal on Horizon, it was Williams betrayal of Shepard. If that mealymouthed apology was all that she could churn out after all of that as some sort of olive branch, she is sadly mistaken as to the scope of her actions.
 
I like Ashley as a character. I find her to be strong willed and independent. She's an exemplary soldier. But as a LI or a friend, she has some serious issues. Tali and Garrus trust Shepard. They know him. Tali even has more reason to hate Cerberus than Ashley does, and she still trusts Shepard. So I guess that just leaves one question: What's Ashley's malfunction?

[GoG ToXiC]

ehh, I just needed her for the achievement, so I have no illusions about getting her back. Never liked her anyway.

[whywhywhywhy]

Helm505 wrote...
Liara was a free agent with no prior obligations. She also had the kind of resources at her disposal that the possibility existed she could bring Shepard back to life. With Cerberus' help.

Liara didn't have resources she acquired them, if you listen to her she called in favors and "owes a lot of people."  She did what was necessary and even if I didn't choose her as Sheperd's LI she definately would be held in higher regard then ashley. 

Helm505 wrote...
Ashley worked for the Alliance and had no resources of her own to draw upon. What was she going to do, resign her commission and go out alone with the money she had from her service pay? To find a corpse? Do you think Cerberus would have approached her, given her fierce loyalty to the Alliance (given her family history)?

Ashley became the ranking NCO, if Sheperd's death she's in charge, she doesnt have to ask for permission to go look for him once informed of his death.  She could be pulled away for another assignment but orders aren't instant she would have had time to at least check before being reassigned.  A weak answer for the writers would be that the higher ups ordered her away upon rescue but unless the alliance betrayed Sheperd to the collectors, search and confirmation of death is paramount. 

Helm505 wrote...
Like a good soldier, Ashley would have mourned the loss of her commander, friend, and lover, and waited for her next assignment.

That's a civilian way of thinking but let me put it to you this way say your a High ranking officer responsible for a battalion fighting in afghanistan and one of your best men someone who's dedication to duty has caused his name to rise through the ranks and become common among civilians and other military personel alike.  This guy is a true hero  though he'd never admit it, he's saved many lives and turned the tide of many battles and the military loves him so much uses him to recruit.

Now this guy is rumored to be killed in action.  You mean to tell me the people who work with him won't search for him or his remains ?  You as the commanding officer won't order for confirmation and/or retrieval ?  If not what happens to morale when the enemies acquire his body desecrated it and parade his body around ?  What happens then ?

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 14 juillet 2011 - 06:10 .

[Iakus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The problem with the "Ashley is racist" arguments is that her statements work much better if you replace "Asari" and "Turian" with "North Korean" and "Saudi" than they do if you replace them with "asians" or "arabians."  She's talking about them in the context of their being (in her mind, opposing) nations, not non-humans.

She's a nationalist in that sense, not a racist. She has political, not racial reservations about the other races. That the other races are both a separate species and a separate political identity from the human Alliance is cause for her reputation as being an "alien-hater" but it's not where her thought process is coming from, it's just easily misinterpreted. She is, as iakus says, a political cynic.

By the same token, Cerberus is not racist either.  What they are however are hyper-aggressive nationalists, also known as jingoists.  Their actions aren't motivated by their belief in the inherent racial inferiority of the other species, only a cynical and single-minded devotion to looking out for their own national (in this case, human) interests.

Navigator Presley, on the other hand...

Exactly.  "Nationalist" is a much better fit for Ashley than "racist" or "xenophobe".  Particularly since she is neither afraid of nor particularly hates aliens.  She simply fells they'll look out for themselves first and others second.  Just like she believes humans will do.  As she says 'It's 'human' nature"  Aliens aren't enemies.  Just potential competition.

[Abispa]

As the child of a soldier in the US army that has worked in UN missions, I can tell you that Ashley's comments are pretty standard. My dad didn't hate Canadians or the British, but he were uncomfortable certain situations in Afghanistan where it was obvious that not everyone was on the same page.

Ashley made fun of Liara concerning Asari promiscuity, but Liara herself said that her people often play up the stereotype. Ashley was also the one who told my Shepards to check in on Liara after her mother died, and she volunteered to hit the beach with the Salarian STG, under Kirahee's command.

Miranda, on the other hand, was the second in command of an organization dedicated to human dominance in the galaxy, and that organization experimented on alien life forms to dominated them, and it conducted unethical experiments on human subjects in the name of human advancements. If Shepard lets the Council and the Asari flagship with a crew of 10,000 die in ME1, Miranda even comments on that event as a GOOD thing since it paved the way for human domination of the Council. Yet I don't read AS MUCH xenophobe criticism for her as I do Ashley.

And Cerberus goes too far for even "xenophobic" Ashley.

Modifié par Abispa, 14 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[knightnblu]

You will have to forgive me for saying so, but isn't xenophobia and racism part and parcel of being human? Man has always looked for ways to place himself above others and if that meant scapegoating somebody else, then so be it. In fact, it wasn't until about 50 years ago that people even began saying something about it though we still segregate gladly on class and social status.

Saying that Williams or Pressley are xenophobic does not make them pariahs of humanity, it makes them quintessentially human. They are xenophobic not because they are bad people to their core, but because they are ignorant of the other races. And don't start in on me for using the word ignorant. It has gotten a bad reputation, but it simply means that they do not know.

Pressley did not have a lot of experience working with other species and couldn't understand Shepard's blind acceptance of them on the Normandy. But as he worked with them and got to know them, he no longer saw them as "other," but as his crewmates. He changed and grew as his experience grew. Same with Ashley, but to a lesser extent.

Ashley even admits that she is "no fan of aliens" on Horizon. She didn't say that she didn't like the Batarians or the Vorcha, she said that she didn't care for them all. That is a broad statement. If that isn't xenophobic, then I had better get another dictionary because there is something wrong with my definition. That single statement defines Ashley as not liking aliens in general. She goes with Kirahe because that's what needed to happen to accomplish the mission. Period. She didn't go because she always wanted to work with Salarians and had a burning need to explore their culture.

Additionally, Williams' desire to not see aliens splattered across the galaxy does not mean that she loves them any more than accepting Kirahe's command meant that she was thinking of joining the Salarian fan club. Where Williams' character shines is in the discharge of her duties. She fights just as hard for Kirahe as she did for Shepard. Why? Because that is her job and she is darned good at it.

Frankly, I see all of this bristling over the term xenophobic as much ado about nothing. Everybody has this character flaw to some extent or you're not human. This is because good and evil reside within each of us. What determines a person's quality is their ability to override that flaw and do what you need to do in order to get the job done. That is what Williams does. By denying that she has that particular flaw you reduce the quality of her character on those occasions when she overcomes it in the pursuit of a higher cause.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

knightnblu wrote...

You will have to forgive me for saying so, but isn't xenophobia and racism part and parcel of being human? Man has always looked for ways to place himself above others and if that meant scapegoating somebody else, then so be it. In fact, it wasn't until about 50 years ago that people even began saying something about it though we still segregate gladly on class and social status.

Saying that Williams or Pressley are xenophobic does not make them pariahs of humanity, it makes them quintessentially human. They are xenophobic not because they are bad people to their core, but because they are ignorant of the other races. And don't start in on me for using the word ignorant. It has gotten a bad reputation, but it simply means that they do not know.

Pressley did not have a lot of experience working with other species and couldn't understand Shepard's blind acceptance of them on the Normandy. But as he worked with them and got to know them, he no longer saw them as "other," but as his crewmates. He changed and grew as his experience grew. Same with Ashley, but to a lesser extent.

Ashley even admits that she is "no fan of aliens" on Horizon. She didn't say that she didn't like the Batarians or the Vorcha, she said that she didn't care for them all. That is a broad statement. If that isn't xenophobic, then I had better get another dictionary because there is something wrong with my definition. That single statement defines Ashley as not liking aliens in general. She goes with Kirahe because that's what needed to happen to accomplish the mission. Period. She didn't go because she always wanted to work with Salarians and had a burning need to explore their culture.

Additionally, Williams' desire to not see aliens splattered across the galaxy does not mean that she loves them any more than accepting Kirahe's command meant that she was thinking of joining the Salarian fan club. Where Williams' character shines is in the discharge of her duties. She fights just as hard for Kirahe as she did for Shepard. Why? Because that is her job and she is darned good at it.

Frankly, I see all of this bristling over the term xenophobic as much ado about nothing. Everybody has this character flaw to some extent or you're not human. This is because good and evil reside within each of us. What determines a person's quality is their ability to override that flaw and do what you need to do in order to get the job done. That is what Williams does. By denying that she has that particular flaw you reduce the quality of her character on those occasions when she overcomes it in the pursuit of a higher cause.

If I'm to summarize your statement, you're basically saying, its okay to be racist or xenophobic so long as you don't don't advocate genocide and let it affect your job performance? I won't completely dimiss your argument as I too am not delusional enough to believe that everyone can as the song goes "Smile on your brother, everybody get together and try to love one another". I'll take tolerence and respect any day, provided its genuine.

However, I do disagree with your point that racists or xenophobes (ignorant or not) shouldn't be treated as "pariahs of humanity", as that kind of thinking-if unchecked-will likely lead to various actions (governmental, social, militarily, etc.) that would do lasting damage to those groups targeted by said racists or xenophobes. To your point concerning the underlying reason for those respective issues being the result of a lack of knowledge, it is propaganda-free education that will ultimately change the hearts and minds of these close-minded souls.

That is all. I now return this forum back to the light-hearted frivolity I've come to tolerate and respect.

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .

[knightnblu]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

You will have to forgive me for saying so, but isn't xenophobia and racism part and parcel of being human? Man has always looked for ways to place himself above others and if that meant scapegoating somebody else, then so be it. In fact, it wasn't until about 50 years ago that people even began saying something about it though we still segregate gladly on class and social status.

Saying that Williams or Pressley are xenophobic does not make them pariahs of humanity, it makes them quintessentially human. They are xenophobic not because they are bad people to their core, but because they are ignorant of the other races. And don't start in on me for using the word ignorant. It has gotten a bad reputation, but it simply means that they do not know.

Pressley did not have a lot of experience working with other species and couldn't understand Shepard's blind acceptance of them on the Normandy. But as he worked with them and got to know them, he no longer saw them as "other," but as his crewmates. He changed and grew as his experience grew. Same with Ashley, but to a lesser extent.

Ashley even admits that she is "no fan of aliens" on Horizon. She didn't say that she didn't like the Batarians or the Vorcha, she said that she didn't care for them all. That is a broad statement. If that isn't xenophobic, then I had better get another dictionary because there is something wrong with my definition. That single statement defines Ashley as not liking aliens in general. She goes with Kirahe because that's what needed to happen to accomplish the mission. Period. She didn't go because she always wanted to work with Salarians and had a burning need to explore their culture.

Additionally, Williams' desire to not see aliens splattered across the galaxy does not mean that she loves them any more than accepting Kirahe's command meant that she was thinking of joining the Salarian fan club. Where Williams' character shines is in the discharge of her duties. She fights just as hard for Kirahe as she did for Shepard. Why? Because that is her job and she is darned good at it.

Frankly, I see all of this bristling over the term xenophobic as much ado about nothing. Everybody has this character flaw to some extent or you're not human. This is because good and evil reside within each of us. What determines a person's quality is their ability to override that flaw and do what you need to do in order to get the job done. That is what Williams does. By denying that she has that particular flaw you reduce the quality of her character on those occasions when she overcomes it in the pursuit of a higher cause.

If I'm to summarize your statement, you're basically saying, its okay to be racist or xenophobic so long as you don't don't advocate genocide and let it affect your job performance? I won't completely dimiss your argument as I too am not delusional enough to believe that everyone can as the song goes "Smile on your brother, everybody get together and try to love one another". I'll take tolerence and respect any day, provided its genuine.

However, I do disagree with your point that racists or xenophobes (ignorant or not) shouldn't be treated as "pariahs of humanity", as that kind of thinking-if unchecked-will likely lead to various actions (governmental, social, militarily, etc.) that would do lasting damage to those groups targeted by said racists or xenophobes. To your point concerning the underlying reason for those respective issues being the result of a lack of knowledge, it is propaganda-free education that will ultimately change the hearts and minds of these close-minded souls.

That is all. I now return this forum back to the light-hearted frivolity I've come to tolerate and respect.

I don't think that I articulated my last post as well as I would have liked. My point was that it is overcoming our own preconceptions and prejudices that forge character. Man's character is essentially the result of struggling with our darker natures. If the darker nature wins more often than not, that person is labeled as bad. Conversely, if the lighter side of a person wins out most of the time that person is said to be good.
 
Thus, the struggle with our tendency to prejudge or preclude against the outsider simply because he is "other" becomes a whetstone used to hone our character. Without that natural tension between good and bad competing within the individual, moral judgments become irrelevant. This is because there is no value attached to the decision being made.
 
What I was trying to highlight was the conflict within Williams that worked against her by providing a resistance to working with the Salarians. She suppressed that inner drive in order to do her job. Therefore, she made a correct choice. By making that choice, she grew as a person just as Pressley had grown.
 
In fact, this is how all human beings grow. Without temptation, without resistance, morality has no meaning and neither does character. That was my point.

[knightnblu]

laecraft wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

 

knightnblu wrote...
 
On Horizon she says that she is no fan of Aliens, but that she isn't extremist. Replace "aliens" with any ethnic group and you end up with a racial statement.
 

laecraft wrote...
 
Replace all words in the sentence, and you'll end up with an entirely different sentence. I suggest the word "Reapers."

So far as your last two sentences, I am not sure of your meaning. Could you clarify?

Sure. You think that replacing the words in a sentence a character uttered is fair game, and would give us a better understanding of a character. I think you can prove anything that way. Replace the word "aliens" with "Reapers," and you end up with a racial statement, wherein Shepard is an extremist.

Fair enough, but I was changing the word to enhance the context. You changed the entire context and I believe that context matters.

[Made Nightwing]

That's a civilian way of thinking but let me put it to you this way say your a High ranking officer responsible for a battalion fighting in afghanistan and one of your best men someone who's dedication to duty has caused his name to rise through the ranks and become common among civilians and other military personel alike.  This guy is a true hero  though he'd never admit it, he's saved many lives and turned the tide of many battles and the military loves him so much uses him to recruit.

Now this guy is rumored to be killed in action.  You mean to tell me the people who work with him won't search for him or his remains ?  You as the commanding officer won't order for confirmation and/or retrieval ?  If not what happens to morale when the enemies acquire his body desecrated it and parade his body around ?  What happens then ?

That is also a civillian way of thinking. The military DOES try anything and everything to retrieve the bodies of all fallen personnel (Case in point, Mace going back into Mogadishu after October 3rd, 1993 to find the bodies of the fallen). But when they can't, when the body has been blown up, burnt to a crisp, or is lost so far in hostile territory that it would endanger other soldiers if there was an attempt to find it, then they will reluctantly call off the search. It's harsh, but that's life.

No one knew where Shepard's body was, the crash site was in the middle of the Terminus, where the Alliance aren't particularly welcome, and there was no reason to believe that the corpse hadn't completely burned up in atmosphere. If I was in charge of the search party, I would have had to make the call to stop what seemed to be a futile effort and return home.