1035 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
Ashley even admits that she is "no fan of aliens" on Horizon. She didn't say that she didn't like the Batarians or the Vorcha, she said that she didn't care for them all. That is a broad statement. If that isn't xenophobic, then I had better get another dictionary because there is something wrong with my definition. That single statement defines Ashley as not liking aliens in general. She goes with Kirahe because that's what needed to happen to accomplish the mission. Period. She didn't go because she always wanted to work with Salarians and had a burning need to explore their culture.

Additionally, Williams' desire to not see aliens splattered across the galaxy does not mean that she loves them any more than accepting Kirahe's command meant that she was thinking of joining the Salarian fan club. Where Williams' character shines is in the discharge of her duties. She fights just as hard for Kirahe as she did for Shepard. Why? Because that is her job and she is darned good at it.

Frankly, I see all of this bristling over the term xenophobic as much ado about nothing. Everybody has this character flaw to some extent or you're not human. This is because good and evil reside within each of us. What determines a person's quality is their ability to override that flaw and do what you need to do in order to get the job done. That is what Williams does. By denying that she has that particular flaw you reduce the quality of her character on those occasions when she overcomes it in the pursuit of a higher cause.

But being "no fan of aliens" is not necessarily the same as "dislikes"  It simply means, she's, well, no fan of them.

I can say "I'm no fan of sports" and it does not mean I don't like sports at all, or that I refuse to be in the same room when a game is on, or that I have to grit my teeth while watching it.  Or that I think less of people who are fans of sports.  It could simply means that I can take it or leave it and don't go out of my way to watch it.  Maybe that means I prefer listening to music.    Maybe it means I don't understand the rules to the more popular games  Maybe I find other activities more appealing.  Maybe I've simply not familiar enough with the games to form an opinion.

Or maybe I really don't like the sports.  "No fan" can mean many, many  things.  Love and hate don't really factor into it at all.

As to the bristling:  Far too many people have tried to paint Ashley as some sort of racist space-redneck despite the fact that she is probably one of the most complex characters in the entire series.  Not speaking about you of course  Even if we disagree that she's xenophobic, you're definitely giving good reasons to defend the stance.  
One of my biggest fears about ME3 is that she'll end up being rewritten into some shallow alien-hating Terra Firma wannabe.  That's not what she is, nor ever was.  Heck she advocated saving the Destiny Ascension in my playthrough!

And again, Ashley's statements about aliens are little different form what she says about humans.  Look at what she says about Udina (a human)

Kaidan: We made out reports. Now we have to trust Ambassador Udina
Ash: No we
don't, sir.

"And that's why I hate politicians"

Or about Chora's Den, a place run by a human and has human customers:

"A million light years from where humanity began, and we walk into a bar filled
with men drooling over half-naked women shaking their ****es on a stage. I don't
know whether to laugh or cry"

I could go on and on.  The word for Ashley is not xenophobe.  It's cynicism. My favorite quote from her:

"A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist"

Ash isn't afraid of aliens.  She's not fearful of them.  She simply believes that if something really bad came about, something that threatened us all (like, say, a Reaper invasion)  They will not be there when we need them.  They'll try to save themselves first.  Thus humans should stand strong on their own if they're going to survive the bear.

In this, it remains to be seen if she's wrong or not.  Personally, I think that's not necesarilly the case.

[knightnblu]

laecraft said "Now, xenophobia is more complicated. It's a crude mechanism of survival - working, but limiting at the same time. It's only natural to be wary of something you don't know, or else you might walk right into the Reapers's arms. A careful, slow approach should be taken between two species who consider becoming allies - true allies, I mean, not in name only like with the Council - where they will get to know each other, compare their visions of the future, decide if they could benefit each other, and prove to each other that they're willing to make sacrifices for someone who's not their own kind.

The little problem with such an approach is that we're out of time. I'd work with anyone who's willing to work with humanity as this point. I'd take any tech they might've developed, too. And while we're at it, if they have any research about the Reapers, I could use it. It doesn't matter how alien they are, how repulsive their customs might seem, or how much damage they did to us in the past. Everyone is good enough for me. I love everyone who fights the Reapers - as long as they're not endangering humanity, of course."
 
First, I recognize that there is a difference between xenophobia and racism and I have never said that Williams was a racist. Pressley, not so much, but he got over it. Secondly, I agree completely with what you have written. In fact, I believe that you have made my point better than I did. I firmly believe that all of the species are going to have to stand together in order to defeat the Reapers. If we don't, we are done.
 
iakus said "As to the bristling: Far too many people have tried to paint Ashley as some sort of racist space-redneck despite the fact that she is probably one of the most complex characters in the entire series. Not speaking about you of course Even if we disagree that she's xenophobic, you're definitely giving good reasons to defend the stance.
One of my biggest fears about ME3 is that she'll end up being rewritten into some shallow alien-hating Terra Firma wannabe. That's not what she is, nor ever was. Heck she advocated saving the Destiny Ascension in my playthrough!"
 
As a redneck, I take offense to that statement (joke)

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Williams is a complex character with complex motivations. I would hate to see her written as you describe her in ME3 as well, because I think that the game would suffer for it. And finally, she did the same on my playthrough. That's why I do not condemn her for her biases. She is working through them as her experience and knowledge grows. In short, she's human and that is the best part of her.

[F00lishG]

if i can get a threesome out of her with Tali, then yes.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...
 
As a redneck, I take offense to that statement (joke)

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Williams is a complex character with complex motivations. I would hate to see her written as you describe her in ME3 as well, because I think that the game would suffer for it. And finally, she did the same on my playthrough. That's why I do not condemn her for her biases. She is working through them as her experience and knowledge grows. In short, she's human and that is the best part of her.

Well, I'm glad I didn't offend with that statement.  I've seen people literally use that term about her.

They're likely the same ones who see her ME3 look and now want a threesome with her and Miranda 

But I think we're interpreting her biases differently.  I see her as being little different from, say Delann.  He sees the Alliance as basically out for themselves, willing to leave the Terminus Systems high and dry.  Even worse, he looked upon offers of help from them with suspicion.  He doesn't think a foreign government will have Horizon's best interests in mind.  Same as Ash.  It's not about being alien, it's about being beholden to a different group.  And every group looks out for #1 first, in her mind.

As the quote attributed to her after her death (if she dies on Horizon) "Human or alien, we're all just animals"

[Abispa]

Personally, I'm hoping for a Jewish Ashley, but I doubt Bioware will assign her a denomination. It's a shame that she alone has to represent ALL human religious traditions and Bioware couldn't spread different Terran religious beliefs to more characters. Of course, as an atheist, I'd like some representation there too.

Okay, I guess I just argued myself into realizing why Bioware didn't do it.

[knightnblu]

You know iakus, it's interesting that you mention Delann. I have always held that Cerberus had an asset on Horizon and that is why the targeting system software was corrupted. Had the Collectors been engaged on the way down, they would have aborted. Delann either could have been used to furnish access to the system or corrupted the system himself due to the Cerberus agent's manipulation of his negative feelings toward the Alliance and Williams. Alternatively, there could also have been an indoctrinated agent of the Reapers who did that, but Cerberus would have to have been aware of this because TIM set Horizon up.
 
Abispa - I don't think that your atheist views are not represented. In fact, they appear to be dominant in the ME universe given William's hesitancy to reveal her faith to Shepard. As for defining her denominational affiliation, if any, I am opposed to that. The two subjects that separate people quicker than any other are religion and politics. Best if both are kept to a minimum in game. As you are aware, there is enough controversy in everything else to drive the conversations on these boards.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

You know iakus, it's interesting that you mention Delann. I have always held that Cerberus had an asset on Horizon and that is why the targeting system software was corrupted. Had the Collectors been engaged on the way down, they would have aborted. Delann either could have been used to furnish access to the system or corrupted the system himself due to the Cerberus agent's manipulation of his negative feelings toward the Alliance and Williams. Alternatively, there could also have been an indoctrinated agent of the Reapers who did that, but Cerberus would have to have been aware of this because TIM set Horizon up.
 

Well it would explain how the Collectors managed to miss another person in their normally flawless colony abductions.  But I think that gets chalked up alongside my own "TIM wanted a bloodbath on the Suicide Mission" as possible, but unlikely...

At any rate, I was thinking of his line after seeing Ash wasn't taken "Screw this!  I'm done with you Alliance types!"  I'm guessing he's "no fan" of the Alliance...:innocent:

[Emzamination]

Well calling me a dirty traitor after all we once meant to each other did sting but shes still in the running.

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote... I fully expected to have to answer for the 304,000 lives I took to stop the Reaper invasion. I did what I had to do. It is up to the Alliance to decide if I was right or wrong to do it. If that means that I have to pay a criminal penalty for my actions, then so be it. I don't harbor any ill will toward the VS for insuring that I answer for my actions. That is their job and I expect them to do it and to do it well.

Why did you believe this to be so? As someone with prior military experience.I'm quite sure that it did not escape your notice that the entire premise of Mass Effect 1 & 2 was that Commander Shepard and Co. were in a "State of Cold War" against the Reapers. As we learned from Vigil, Soveriegn has been around plotting and scheming for ages...What Shepard did during the DLC Arrival is completly justified.And I could so see him saying during his trial something like this.

"You people better wake up. The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping. There is another world beneath it — the real world. And if you
want to survive it, you better [shouts] learn to pull the trigger! Wesley Snipes -- Blade

Modifié par ubermensch007, 16 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[knightnblu]

ubermensch007 wrote...
 
 
knightnblu wrote... I fully expected to have to answer for the 304,000 lives I took to stop the Reaper invasion. I did what I had to do. It is up to the Alliance to decide if I was right or wrong to do it. If that means that I have to pay a criminal penalty for my actions, then so be it. I don't harbor any ill will toward the VS for insuring that I answer for my actions. That is their job and I expect them to do it and to do it well.
 
 
Why did you believe this to be so? As someone with prior military experience.I'm quite sure that it did not escape your notice that the entire premise of Mass Effect 1 & 2 was that Commander Shepard and Co. were in a "State of Cold War" against the Reapers. As we learned from Vigil, Soveriegn has been around plotting and scheming for ages...What Shepard did during the DLC Arrival is completly justified.And I could so see him saying during his trial something like this.
 
"You people better wake up. The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping. There is another world beneath it — the real world. And if you
want to survive it, you better [shouts] learn to pull the trigger! Wesley Snipes -- Blade

 
I believe it to be so because we all have to be held accountable for our actions. I did what I believed to be right. As Admiral Hackett pointed out, there are going to be people in the Alliance who will not see it that way. Those are the people who are going to bring Shepard to trial for war crimes (in my opinion, not official).
 
They will deny the Reaper threat, they will claim that I acted rashly, they will say that I am a loose cannon. But all of that doesn't matter. If I hadn't blown the relay, the Reapers would have had an easier time of taking the galaxy apart. I attempted to warn the Batarians, but was cut off. There really wasn't any other option. If the vs is ordered to guard me during the proceedings, then I expect them to do their duty to the best of their ability. Besides, after Horizon I wouldn't want to call them as a character witness anyway as it is more than apparent that they no longer trust me.
 
I knew as soon as I pushed the activate in the control room that I would likely end up in a courtroom. I shot Kenson when I confronted her at the mass effect core to eliminate her threat (renegade interupt). Had that been real life, I would have shot her in the back of the head without warning as soon as I laid eyes on her. Game Shep is a lot nicer than I am in a combat situation.
 
I am prepared to explain my actions to those who will judge me and I am prepared to face the consequences of my actions if any are imposed. Lack of oversight and review leads to a tyranny of the minority and "might makes right" attitudes. I have never subscribed to those beliefs and I never will. I hope that this answers your question.

[whywhywhywhy]

That's a civilian way of thinking but let me put it to you this way say your a High ranking officer responsible for a battalion fighting in afghanistan and one of your best men someone who's dedication to duty has caused his name to rise through the ranks and become common among civilians and other military personel alike.  This guy is a true hero  though he'd never admit it, he's saved many lives and turned the tide of many battles and the military loves him so much uses him to recruit.

Now this guy is rumored to be killed in action.  You mean to tell me the people who work with him won't search for him or his remains ?  You as the commanding officer won't order for confirmation and/or retrieval ?  If not what happens to morale when the enemies acquire his body desecrated it and parade his body around ?  What happens then ?

Made Nightwing wrote...
That is also a civillian way of thinking.

How so ?  I think your confused.

Made Nightwing wrote...
The military DOES try anything and everything to retrieve the bodies of all fallen personnel (Case in point, Mace going back into Mogadishu after October 3rd, 1993 to find the bodies of the fallen).

This is th point I'm arguing, not arguing against.

Made Nightwing wrote...
But when they can't, when the body has been blown up, burnt to a crisp, or is lost so far in hostile territory that it would endanger other soldiers if there was an attempt to find it, then they will reluctantly call off the search. It's harsh, but that's life.

Liara/Shadow broker agent found it.  Yes yes, all searches get called off this isn't a relevant point when the argument is why wasn't a search conducted immediately in the first place.

Made Nightwing wrote...
No one knew where Shepard's body was,

Again Liara/Shadow Broker found it.  Shadow Broker sure he has resources so that isn't completely unexpected, but in contrast are we saying the alliance doesn't have resources to find it....?  Further, Liara as a fledging Information broker was able to track the body and joined up with Cerberus to in the midst of retrieving it.  Is Liara more resourceful and capable then Ashley & the alliance ? 

Made Nightwing wrote...
the crash site was in the middle of the Terminus, where the Alliance aren't particularly welcome, and there was no reason to believe that the corpse hadn't completely burned up in atmosphere. If I was in charge of the search party, I would have had to make the call to stop what seemed to be a futile effort and return home.

After what ?  After doing what ?  You at least should remember to retrieve those highly classified prototype ship parts.  If we present day can track and gather the remnants of a exploded space shuttle then I don't think the alliance would have a problem nor doing the same in a reasonable amount of time.

Hackett had dog tags but I don't know what that means, Liara could have gave them to him and he gave them back.  They could have been newly made.  We don't know exactly what he did nor when he did it.  One things for sure given the events (Sheperd, Ship and dog tags) sensible military protocol wasn't followed.

[The Tookah]

If the Military had retrieved Shepard's body, we would have had a different hero for ME2. Shepard would have been given a military funeral and a posthumous medal.

[whywhywhywhy]

You think the shadow broker lack resources to pursue the body for the collectors ? Cerberus built another normandy I'm sure they could have smuggled out his body.  Do you think Liara as a information broker would be unaware of anything relating to Sheperd ?

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:59 .

[knightnblu]

whywhywhywhy said "Liara/Shadow broker agent found it. Yes yes, all searches get called off this isn't a relevant point when the argument is why wasn't a search conducted immediately in the first place."
 
 
Yeah, that is one of the things that has always rung a little hollow with me as well. It may simply be that it wasn't put into canon and the Alliance did perform a massive search for Shepard and the missing crew, but the email from Hackett seems to indicate that it was only after Shepard's resurrection that they even visited the star system of the attack.
 
Secondly, they would want to hear from the Normandy's Captain on the loss of the ship and crewmen. Navies are funny like that. Which is another reason that they would not have turned him loose from the military once they found out his KIA status was incorrect and he was really MIA/AWOL, which also requires some explanation to the brass.
 
William's current relationship, working and otherwise, with Anderson deserves some exposition in ME3 and I still want to know why Williams did what she did on Horizon. The writers have really got to hate us poking holes in their story, but at least it keeps them honest.

[ubermensch007]

knightnblu wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...
 
 
knightnblu wrote... I fully expected to have to answer for the 304,000 lives I took to stop the Reaper invasion. I did what I had to do. It is up to the Alliance to decide if I was right or wrong to do it. If that means that I have to pay a criminal penalty for my actions, then so be it. I don't harbor any ill will toward the VS for insuring that I answer for my actions. That is their job and I expect them to do it and to do it well.
 
 
Why did you believe this to be so? As someone with prior military experience.I'm quite sure that it did not escape your notice that the entire premise of Mass Effect 1 & 2 was that Commander Shepard and Co. were in a "State of Cold War" against the Reapers. As we learned from Vigil, Soveriegn has been around plotting and scheming for ages...What Shepard did during the DLC Arrival is completly justified.And I could so see him saying during his trial something like this.
 
"You people better wake up. The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping. There is another world beneath it — the real world. And if you
want to survive it, you better [shouts] learn to pull the trigger! Wesley Snipes -- Blade

 
I believe it to be so because we all have to be held accountable for our actions. I did what I believed to be right. As Admiral Hackett pointed out, there are going to be people in the Alliance who will not see it that way. Those are the people who are going to bring Shepard to trial for war crimes (in my opinion, not official).
 
They will deny the Reaper threat, they will claim that I acted rashly, they will say that I am a loose cannon. But all of that doesn't matter. If I hadn't blown the relay, the Reapers would have had an easier time of taking the galaxy apart. I attempted to warn the Batarians, but was cut off. There really wasn't any other option. If the vs is ordered to guard me during the proceedings, then I expect them to do their duty to the best of their ability. Besides, after Horizon I wouldn't want to call them as a character witness anyway as it is more than apparent that they no longer trust me.
 
I knew as soon as I pushed the activate in the control room that I would likely end up in a courtroom. I shot Kenson when I confronted her at the mass effect core to eliminate her threat (renegade interupt). Had that been real life, I would have shot her in the back of the head without warning as soon as I laid eyes on her. Game Shep is a lot nicer than I am in a combat situation.
 
I am prepared to explain my actions to those who will judge me and I am prepared to face the consequences of my actions if any are imposed. Lack of oversight and review leads to a tyranny of the minority and "might makes right" attitudes. I have never subscribed to those beliefs and I never will. I hope that this answers your question.

AH, YES. No good deed goes unpunished.   Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. <_< I have this saying," If your right than your alright.If your wrong, your gone." It doesn't matter to me if a person disobeys a direct order.If there intuition proves to be accurate, then there insubordination is irrelevant.One of the things that 24 did well.Is show the justaposition betwixt those who think they are right, in thier assessments and judgements, compared to others who know that they are right.For instance; like how in Season 2, Michelle Dessler -  believed within all the fibers of her soul, that Jack Bauer was right about the Cypress Audio Recording being fake.She defied Tony (who was the leader of CTU Los Angeles at that time) risked losing her career, going to prison and all kinds of other stuff.

RIGHT MAKES MIGHT... (IMHO) - It trumps 'the chain of command' -  It trumps 'legality'.... It's like how the Council and Alliance didn't dare convict Shepard and Co. of mutiny.After there mutiny, ended up being responsible for saving there asses, during the Battle of the Citadel.Something else Michelle Dessler did (or rather, said) is of note here.While defending Jack Bauer's actions in either Day 2 or 3, she said,"Tony, Jack was put in an impossible situation!"

To piggy- back on her train of thought - knightnblu...
Who could even be considered qualified to judge Commander Shepard's actions?
If we are to have a "Jury of our Peers" than who are his peers? There are other Spectres of course.Tela Vasir, even though she became corrupted by working with the Shadow Broker; still managed to speak well of Shepard's service as a Spectre.

But how many even of thier number, have been put in such potentional galaxyy altering situations like Shepard has?

I recall something that Nite Owl II said about Ozymandias in Watchmen.

Rorshach: If Veidt truly engineering Third World War.We are approaching heart of darkness.

Dan Drieberg: Why would Adrian want to destroy the world?

Kovacs: Insanity perhaps.

Nite Owl II: Who's qualified to judge something like that? This is the world's smartest man were talking about here. How can anyone tell, if he's gone crazy?

(That's probably my favorite line of dialogue from the whole novel.)

I am also reminded of what Jack Nicholson says to Tom Cruise in Few Good Men (Which is one of my all time favorite movies and the theme of it, is all about "Acountability")

A Few Good Men

written by Aaron Sorkin

Jessep: You want answers?


Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.


Jessep: You want answers?


Kaffee: I want the truth!


Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls.And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt.Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives.And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.

We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide
it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

knightnblu, you believe that we all must be held accountable for our actions.So do I...But if you expect me (as Shepard) to stand trial for what happened during Arrival.I'll make this deal with you...I'll be held accountable for my actions, but not before people like the **** War criminals who got away scott free( The Odessa File ) and those from more recent history like the murders and rapist from the genocide in Rwanda and Darfur are...

Rebecca Tinsley was on Book TV a couple of days ago and she was talking about her book,"When the Stars Fall to Earth" During the Q & A portion,  the last question she got she said this," I had a horrible experience, during my first trip to Rwanda in 2004.I went to a prison were there were 5,000 people who committed genocide.And rwanda is such a poor country, where you only get locked up if you 'killed a large number of people' or you were a 'mastermind'.So you think of the implications of that.In the case of someone I know, is that every day that she leaves her hut, she looks into the eyes of the person (monster) who killed her mom and dad and raped her...They can't afford to put him in prison, because there are so many people who participated."

Modifié par ubermensch007, 18 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[knightnblu]

ubermensch007 - While the book and movie entitled "The Odessa Files" were fiction, the organization and it's aims and achievements were not. Many of the intel records on that organization has been made public and truth is indeed stranger than fiction. I will not recount the details, as this forum is inappropriate for them. Further, Rwanda also is worse than you know. It is eerily similar to the holocaust in its design and purpose as well as the awareness of the victims before the genocide was launched. Again, I cannot relate details because of the forum.

That having been said, justice places everyone on her scale and weighs their actions in view of the law of men. It is in her balance that men's deeds are weighed and extraordinary circumstances are taken into account. If we ever remove ourselves from her scrutiny, we no longer have a civilization. We will only have anarchy.

People are as different in opinion as they are in appearance, but it is their opinion that justice seeks when a jury is empanelled. The combined intelligence of those twelve people become the intellect of justice as they evaluate your guilt or innocence (in the U.S.). Those who would live by the law must also be ruled by the law. Therefore, one must submit to the law or be forced to do so and this is why law enforcement agents are armed. How is Shepard any different?

Justice is blinded so that she cannot see social status, rank, or wealth. All are equal in her eyes. The justice of the military is little different. Shepard swore to uphold the most basic laws and to defend them from all enemies both foreign and domestic when he joined the Alliance (presuming of course, that the Alliance oath of service is similar to the U.S.'s). Therefore, any attempt to dodge the courtroom is a violation of that oath and a betrayal of his honor.

In today's world oaths and honor count for little. But there are some who still abide by these terms. I like to think that Shepard is one of them. More than 300,000 are dead by Shepard's hand. Possibly more than has been killed by any Spectre in the history of the Council and certainly more than any single service member in Earth's history. An accounting of that deed is unavoidable. Shepard needs to explain himself and to submit to judgment.

Had Shepard only killed a few hundred, nobody would have batted an eyelash. Maybe he could even have gotten away with a thousand or so. But a 300k+ death count including men, women, and children cannot be ignored. You and I know the reasoning behind such a toll, but the Alliance Admiralty does not. Further, I suspect that the Council will want an accounting from him as well, if they haven't revoked his Spectre status already provided that they are aware of his involvement with the incident..

In a military chain of command, the superior officer is tied to his subordinates. Just as Shepard's crew is a reflection of him, he is also a reflection of his superiors. Therefore, if his honor becomes stained, he also stains the honor of his commanders. This is why the commanding officer is directly responsible for the actions of his men either good or bad and why his superiors will also be held accountable for Shepard's actions. The military is funny that way. There will be an accounting in ME3 because there has to be one. There really isn't any other choice and based on Ashley's reaction to us on Horizon, I don't think that we are going to like what we hear about ourselves.

[Sshodan]

That trail is actually an interesting question - If Shepard is still a Specter, and he can be reinstated in ME2 if you recall, than he officially can't be subjected to any Alliance law systems.
In fact we start the story with a Specter gone rogue - the council never recall Saren for the trail, they never ask Shepard to bring him back alive for the trail either. From which I make a conclusion that Specters operate in the same way certain "special tasks" groups during a wartime do - you are either right, or dead. If an agent like that goes rogue he does not get a trail - to much secrets that no one wants to touch will have to be exposed for the trail to make sense, so what he gets is a bullet in the head, not a jury.

As for the body qestion - I believe Sheps body was not found because Alliance never publicly admired his death, in fact they diligently hid the fact for for the sake of keeping the moral up. If they actually started a search for the body it would be kind of hard to hide - people who search will have to know what are they searching for, and once they know the gossip mill will spread it around - you can't keep a secret when hundreds of people will have to be involved. It does not make it right - I still think that they should have searched, but I can understand the political reasoning behind covering up Sheps death.

Modifié par Sshodan, 18 juillet 2011 - 12:54 .

[knightnblu]

Had Shepard been separated from service upon being made a Spectre, I would agree with you. But as he is both a Spectre and an Alliance officer he falls under two different jurisdictions: that of the Council and that of the Alliance. While the Council may be loathe to charge him with a crime, the Alliance would not be so reticent for the reasons mentioned above.

In a sense, Shepard is trapped between two worlds. That of the wider galaxy and that of humanity. ME3 will show us just how much or how little Shepard is beholden to the laws of both.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

Had Shepard been separated from service upon being made a Spectre, I would agree with you. But as he is both a Spectre and an Alliance officer he falls under two different jurisdictions: that of the Council and that of the Alliance. While the Council may be loathe to charge him with a crime, the Alliance would not be so reticent for the reasons mentioned above.

In a sense, Shepard is trapped between two worlds. That of the wider galaxy and that of humanity. ME3 will show us just how much or how little Shepard is beholden to the laws of both.

Yeah, I suspect that the Spectre immunity only applies when Shepard is working on behest of the Council.  It would protect him from prosecution of crimes he may commit while on assignment.  

Shepard was not working for the Council during Arrival.  He's being tried in an Alliance court.  Though technically, Shepard wasn't even working for the Alliance at that point.  Which makes for an odd legal tangle...

[Sshodan]

Somehow that looks wrong to me - one can't really serve two masters - if turians obviously relinquish any authority over their specters shouldn't the Alliance do the same? The only way I can think of for humans to get Shep on trail is if his Specter status is revoked, which will return him under the Alliance jurisdiction... Maybe that's what happens in the beginning of ME3.
Council may have tried to get right of him the same they did with Saren, but if Shep was clever enough to turn himself in to the Alliance publicly and immoderately they may not have a choice in the matter...

[whywhywhywhy]

Sheperd is subject the the alliance's laws as a aliance soldier but his authority as a specter supercedes and frees him from any alliance law. He can only be tried if that status is revoked. But because of his Death and KIA status he was no longer part of the Alliance so even if he is kicked out of specters he can't be charged retroactively, not legally.

[redbaron76]

I have no idea why people need explanation of what happened on horizon. Ashley was sent to investigate rumors that cerberus was behind attacks, and that shepard was alive and working with cerberus. I do not see the need for an explanation, because ashley was with in her rights to accuse my shepard of treason. Nad you knight said that you poked holes in the plot well you did not. I think bioware left the horizon situation the way it is on purpose. It might not be resolved and it is atect of bond that ashley and shepard share, to see if their romance is strong enough to take the next step. My shepard still trust ashley and wants her beside him to fight against reapers.

[Scorpion1O1]

The more I deal with Jack the more the answer is turning to no.

[whywhywhywhy]

redbaron76 wrote...

I have no idea why people need explanation of what happened on horizon. Ashley was sent to investigate rumors that cerberus was behind attacks, and that shepard was alive and working with cerberus. I do not see the need for an explanation, because ashley was with in her rights to accuse my shepard of treason. Nad you knight said that you poked holes in the plot well you did not. I think bioware left the horizon situation the way it is on purpose. It might not be resolved and it is atect of bond that ashley and shepard share, to see if their romance is strong enough to take the next step. My shepard still trust ashley and wants her beside him to fight against reapers.

read the posts by laecraft, knightblu and whywhywhywhy.  Then explain to us how we didn't show plotholes in ash's "for the alliance" gungho "your a traitor" attitude.  Feel free to respond to those post and show me how these posts didn't destroy the events on horizon as sensible.

[easyt3hremember]

Nope. Ash's way too alliance for me.