84 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
you wouldnt lose anything if the mission complete screen was taken away and shepard utilized the decompretion chamber instead. thered be ALOT of people who would love not seeing a mission complete screen. i feel bad for you really that you arent immersed into ME. 

Well, he'd lose a few seconds of boredom.

But judging from the way posts run around here, he probably should suck it up. The people who dislike the MC screen are really bothered by it, and people who like the screen fine don't seem that bothered by the alternative.

I just hope that if they do remove the MC screen they don't bring back kill XP while they're at it.

Edit: missed Gatt9's post. Well, that's good news for me.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 juin 2011 - 06:10 .

[ME-ParaShep]

For Halo Reach, I like how it shows your spartan when you gain credits after a match. I personally would like our own Shepard having that sort of mission completion screen.

[MinotaurWarrior]

... I liked having a mission summary from TIM. In a more perfect world, there would be similar mission summaries from a whole bunch of characters, for every mission, giving us insight into how other characters perceive our actions.

I also liked the elevators, and just wish they had recorded more news / banter.

*runs away*

[In Exile]

Gatt9 wrote...

I certainly hope they're gone,  nothing was a bigger reminder that you were now playing a TPS than the fact that you get pushed to a "Level complete" screen and get a fixed amount of experience,  just to rub in the fact that you and the next guy are absolutely identical no matter what you do. 

But I'm guessing they're in,  because Norman made a point of saying they're not doing Xp-per kill,  which means it'll still be fixed amounts at the end of missions,  and they'll need some way to communicate it to the player.

Wait, are you trying to suggest that encounter-only or quest-only XP isn't a staple of RPGs? 'Cause... well, a lot of PnP properties would like to have a word with you. Next thing you know you'll say a game needs loot to be an RPG.

[TexasToast712]

I hate having to spend 20 minutes walking back to my ship. I like the loading screens.

[elitecom]

A good way to solvet this if it must be in the game, is to just display the information about the result of the quest on a computer in your quarters, or perhaps in the mission computer's journal section. So you can see how many resources you gathered, credits gained, and the events that happened.

[Gatt9]

In Exile wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I certainly hope they're gone,  nothing was a bigger reminder that you were now playing a TPS than the fact that you get pushed to a "Level complete" screen and get a fixed amount of experience,  just to rub in the fact that you and the next guy are absolutely identical no matter what you do. 

But I'm guessing they're in,  because Norman made a point of saying they're not doing Xp-per kill,  which means it'll still be fixed amounts at the end of missions,  and they'll need some way to communicate it to the player.

Wait, are you trying to suggest that encounter-only or quest-only XP isn't a staple of RPGs? 'Cause... well, a lot of PnP properties would like to have a word with you. Next thing you know you'll say a game needs loot to be an RPG.

No,  I am not.

There are plenty of settings that use encounter or quest based XP only,  there are some that are completely levelless.  Nor is loot strictly required,  though it is highly preferred as it facilitiates short-term rewards for actions,  which is really key for maintaining player's excitement.  As the alternative is ME2,  where everyone's just another speedbump with no reason to kill them aside from them being in your way.

The only prerequistie to being an RPG is Character Based Skill,  it is the defining feature of an RPG.  Just like the defining feature of an FPS is first person perspective with player based skill.  ME2 is a TPS,  it lacks Character Based Skill,  as there's nothing in the game that you can't hit and nothing you cannot kill at level 1 if you could reach it.

But Bioware's quest based XP system is very lazy design.  ME2 was designed such that every main mission gave you a level give or take a couple (And I mean couple) XPs.  The sidequests were designed such that the experience you received was essentially insigificant,  requiring you do to several of them to *maybe* get a level out of it.  Resulting in the delta between a player who did everything and the player who did main missions only being small.

Further,  the difficulty of the missions was irrelevant,  if you followed a main mission you got a big lump of xp,  but if you did a side mission and fought the exact same enemies down to the exact same endbosses,  you received a pittance.  Some of the vehicle based missions were hellishly difficult,  and you got very little for it,  while a relatively easy main mission gave you a level.

Any other system,  every other system,  hands you XP based upon the challenges you faced,  usually with a sliding scale based on your solution and the difficulty in achieving it.  Bioware's is clearly skewed towards keeping everyone within a very small range.

That's lazy design,  and that's a large part of the reason why I *hate* ME2's implementation and am saddened to see it returning.  Because the rewards are clearly intended to keep a small delta and completely disregard effort,  inginuity, or any other achievements.

[In Exile]

Gatt9 wrote...
But Bioware's quest based XP system is very lazy design.  ME2 was designed such that every main mission gave you a level give or take a couple (And I mean couple) XPs.  The sidequests were designed such that the experience you received was essentially insigificant,  requiring you do to several of them to *maybe* get a level out of it.  Resulting in the delta between a player who did everything and the player who did main missions only being small.

You mean, it was exactly like D&D in that every quest module was supposed to level the PC up?

Further,  the difficulty of the missions was irrelevant,  if you followed a main mission you got a big lump of xp,  but if you did a side mission and fought the exact same enemies down to the exact same endbosses,  you received a pittance. 

I agree wth you on the lack of connection to difficulty, though.

Any other system,  every other system,  hands you XP based upon the challenges you faced,  usually with a sliding scale based on your solution and the difficulty in achieving it.  Bioware's is clearly skewed towards keeping everyone within a very small range.

Again - agree, but the solution is not to go back to the horror that is XP/kill.

That's lazy design,  and that's a large part of the reason why I *hate* ME2's implementation and am saddened to see it returning.  Because the rewards are clearly intended to keep a small delta and completely disregard effort,  inginuity, or any other achievements.

We don't know if Bioware is keeping the same XP curve.

[FlyingWalrus]

Gatt9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I certainly hope they're gone,  nothing was a bigger reminder that you were now playing a TPS than the fact that you get pushed to a "Level complete" screen and get a fixed amount of experience,  just to rub in the fact that you and the next guy are absolutely identical no matter what you do. 

But I'm guessing they're in,  because Norman made a point of saying they're not doing Xp-per kill,  which means it'll still be fixed amounts at the end of missions,  and they'll need some way to communicate it to the player.

Wait, are you trying to suggest that encounter-only or quest-only XP isn't a staple of RPGs? 'Cause... well, a lot of PnP properties would like to have a word with you. Next thing you know you'll say a game needs loot to be an RPG.

No,  I am not.

There are plenty of settings that use encounter or quest based XP only,  there are some that are completely levelless.  Nor is loot strictly required,  though it is highly preferred as it facilitiates short-term rewards for actions,  which is really key for maintaining player's excitement.  As the alternative is ME2,  where everyone's just another speedbump with no reason to kill them aside from them being in your way.

The only prerequistie to being an RPG is Character Based Skill,  it is the defining feature of an RPG.  Just like the defining feature of an FPS is first person perspective with player based skill.  ME2 is a TPS,  it lacks Character Based Skill,  as there's nothing in the game that you can't hit and nothing you cannot kill at level 1 if you could reach it.

But Bioware's quest based XP system is very lazy design.  ME2 was designed such that every main mission gave you a level give or take a couple (And I mean couple) XPs.  The sidequests were designed such that the experience you received was essentially insigificant,  requiring you do to several of them to *maybe* get a level out of it.  Resulting in the delta between a player who did everything and the player who did main missions only being small.

Further,  the difficulty of the missions was irrelevant,  if you followed a main mission you got a big lump of xp,  but if you did a side mission and fought the exact same enemies down to the exact same endbosses,  you received a pittance.  Some of the vehicle based missions were hellishly difficult,  and you got very little for it,  while a relatively easy main mission gave you a level.

Any other system,  every other system,  hands you XP based upon the challenges you faced,  usually with a sliding scale based on your solution and the difficulty in achieving it.  Bioware's is clearly skewed towards keeping everyone within a very small range.

That's lazy design,  and that's a large part of the reason why I *hate* ME2's implementation and am saddened to see it returning.  Because the rewards are clearly intended to keep a small delta and completely disregard effort,  inginuity, or any other achievements.

I disagree with you on a lot of things, Gatt9, but this is actually a problem I had with ME2 as well.

Loot I can do without. It's a science fiction setting, I find I can digest the idea of Shepard pilfering data and currency through electronic means better than him rifling through the pockets of a recently slain mercenary.  Loot is something I could take or leave. However, you raise a good point about how sidequests in ME2 gave some pitiful rewards for doing them. There is almost literally no incentive to do them besides the experience of doing them. For some people that might be good enough, but we'd like something better than a half-hearted pat on the back for our efforts. The risk and reward was usually very out of sync with one another in ME2 and this is a point of game balance that I hope is addressed in ME3.

[who would know]

I liked the loading screens in ME2 better than the ME elevators. Some eye candy and otherworldly droning noises never hurt anyone. Miles more interesting than the elevator rides.

I didn't mind the mission complete screens, either. They tied the entire mission together and seemed to be foreshadowing something with the creepy view of Illusive Man's back. It did remind me I was playing a game, but I never forgot that.

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...
Any other system,  every other system,  hands you XP based upon the challenges you faced,  usually with a sliding scale based on your solution and the difficulty in achieving it.

Actually, there are PnP systems where XP bears no relation to challenges faced, and is awarded based on time played, role-playing, and mission success. For obvious reasons, the approach isn't workable in a CRPG that has a large degree of freedom. But it works just fine in PnP where the GM is handling difficulty anyway and grinding is flat-out impossible. Whether it works in a more linear CRPG is debatable.

There are also some PnP sstems that use learn-by-doing rather than XP, but I figure that's not useful here.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 juin 2011 - 07:38 .

[Nightdragon8]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Haseeo wrote...

DonDaMon wrote...

they ruined immersion for me, i hope they are removed completely !!!

Yes because cutting to a loading screen instead of still being in the world completely ruins the immersion of the game world

Except that loading screens still followed the mission complete screen.  If anything, the info should've been displayed on the loading screens.

^^ i endores this

What really bugged me was the fact that I had to launch the normandy to change my armor.... IRL I would be like BRB chaning clothes. Insted we have to lauch the ship then come back. I despised that.

after losing the whole Item aspect of the game I begin to like the new system

The mission complete screens I always used to see if I missed any money in the game. I always remembered if I got the equipment or not it was just the money I keep missing.

[wildannie]

I'd prefer not to have the mission complete screens.

I'd also prefer there to be less character selection screens too. If I'm on a planet with Thane and Garrus and start a mission, I'd like the game to assume that they are the squad I'm using.

[azerSheppard]

Mission recap screen is great, don't wanna do a 20 min walk + elevator ride to get back to the ship, THAT ruins the immersion for me.

[JoHnDoE14]

I really like the cerberus reports at the end of the mission. It lets you review what you did and helps you immerse (its totaly NOT immersion-breaking), since its an actual cerberus report, something your Shepard could see.

[Patchwork]

TBH I've never understood the problem with lifts, they were never that long especially compared to ME2's load screens, you hear some world news, maybe get a quest or bonus party banter. The decompression chamber on the other hand took forever and I hated it.

I like the idea of mission reports from the squad, acquired lists etc being logged onto Shepard's computer. Great immersion idea.

After LOTSB I assumed Liara would take over TIM's mission report/end mission screen in ME3 but now she's a full time squadie I'm not sure maybe they will do something different.

[Schneidend]

Load screens vs. elevators is a completely separate issue from the mission complete screen.

Personally, I'd like to see both the mission complete screen and the elevator rides return. Ideally, though, I'd love to see a scene in the Normandy's decompression chamber or comm. room where characters talk about your decisions. Stuff like the Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion conflicts should be a regular thing, though not always an explosive confrontation.

[Mister Mida]

I hope not, though it ain't a big deal for me.

[Forsythia]

DonDaMon wrote...

they ruined immersion for me, i hope they are removed completely !!!

This. BioWare, this isn't DOOM or Duke Nukem 3D!

wildannie wrote...

I'd also prefer there to be less character selection screens too. If I'm on a planet with Thane and Garrus and start a mission, I'd like the game to assume that they are the squad I'm using.

And this. I don't get why BioWare added this crap to begin with, I liked how it was in ME1.

Modifié par Forsythia, 19 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[Aurellia]

I'd love to see mission complete screen removed and instead something like infamous 2, where it leaves you in game and it brings up a hud window on the right 3rd of the screen with the mission complete. The game is still animating and you can move. You dismiss it by hitting X

[Raizo]

I hope not. I really hated those Mission Complete screens. They would be acceptable in almost any other genre of game but not in an advenure game or an rpg game. They completely kill all sense of immersion and they are very dis-reputive to the overall flow of the game.

[Nezzer]

"The square root of 912.04 is 30.2. It all seemed harmless"
**!!!!!!! TTUUUUUNNNN TUN DUN TUUNNN TTUUUNNN !!!!!!**
¬¬

[SalsaDMA]

What are those 20 minutes walks people are blabbering about? I know exageration is commonly used to stress a point, but come on... the 20 minutes peeps are beyond exageration and into the realm of pure fantasy...

I find it ridicilous that the only 'argument' people have against proper immersive transitions, is "it probably takes too long". Here's an idea: transitions can take the same amount of time regardless of the medium used to display it... So it's basicly a choice of wether you want to look at a dumb screen that breaks the flow of the story, or a seamless sequence that keeps the flow of the story and makes the world seem more connected.

I certainly know which one I prefer...

[catabuca]

TheCrakFox wrote...

I don't like them either. They were especially innapropriate after a scene that was intended to be emotional, then the mission complete music starts and the moment is ruined.

Perhaps the same info could be accessed on Shep's computer, so if anyone actually wants to see it they still can.

exactly this.

it's not about whether you get access to the information on the mission complete screens or not, it's about how it pulls you out of the narrative. it unnecessarily breaks the game up into small 'game' parts, rather than letting the story flow as a more cohesive and emotionally engaging (rofl) whole. regardless of your opinion on how loading between areas was handled in the first game (elevators), the fact that they tried to make the transition between the end of 'missions' and the getting from a - b as seamless as possible was something that made mass effect 1 feel far more like you were in the mass effect universe, as opposed to the second game, where it very much felt simply like you were playing a mass effect game.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Don't really care... but I'd like the air lock as the way to enter/exit back in the game... and the whole talking about the previous missions at like a mission debriefing with the whole squad to come back.