52 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

<raises eyebrow at two 18's and two 19's with two 10's>

I guess we've all experimented with cheated stats, but I think that you're going to find that being "Superman" as far as stats in this game is going to lead you into a state of malaise, jadedness, and boredom.

Say goodbye to adrenaline while playing unless you revert to fair stats and character abilities.

[AnonymousHero]

Given the tomes, those stats aren't that unrealistic. The tomes add 8 points, and with a bit of patience you can roll a 90 total pretty reliably for pretty much any race/class. That's 98 points and the poster has a total of 94.

Whether it makes the game easier... well sure, if you're a melee oriented character lower STR and DEX do make the game harder until you find ways to compensate, but unless you're totally gimped (3 STR or DEX, say), it's not going to make that much difference since equipment can make up the difference (Girdle of Fortitude sets CON to 18 for a long time, Gauntlets of Dexterity for 18 DEX and a Girdle of X Giant STR for >19 STR).

[BelgarathMTH]

Well, I guess. To each their own, but the times I've played with super-pumped stats have not been the times I've had the most fun.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I personally often use the Ctrl 8 cheat, so that afterwards I can freely set the stats to what I find appropiate for the kind of character I have in mind. I do this even if the total could easily be reached through a quarter-hour (or even 5 minutes) of rerolling, because I cannot be bothered to invest this quarter-hour when I could be playing instead. I do the same thing in ME2 (with the resources), because I don't see why I should be doing that kind of monotonous work, when I'd rather be playing, or else accept the punishment (inferior stats) for my desire to play.

[Carinna]

Fuinris, I think you'll find that a lot of people here throw the word "cheating" around very casually and tend to imply to all the other posters (ALL of them) that "you don't play exactly the way I find it fun/challenging/entertaining to play, therefore the way "you" (collective you) play is "cheating." Even though, for this game actual "cheating is impossible and irrelevant. No one can really cheat because they are only playing against themselves. There are some people here who consider it cheating to even play with the Fixpack installed  (even though it closes several bugs that other people consider cheating !?!), because it changes the game from exactly the way the developers sold it. Others say that no, the Fixpack is okay to use, but they consider any other mod cheating (even if you only use the Tweakpack to change the colors of the peasants' clothes). I personally use CTRL-8 for exactly the same reason H_T does - I have better things to do with my time. You're right in that I can't get something like 18/11 with it, though.

In short, no one is calling anyone else a "dirty cheater;" they are just using the word to justify their assertion that their own play style is superior. Not very sportsmanlike, but not meant as an insult, either. So no proofs are required (though sometimes I wish they were, and not only on this board and for this game ...)

edit:  clean up cut and paste mess.

Modifié par Carinna, 28 juin 2011 - 08:23 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Fuinris wrote...

Next time I will use my d6 to roll the stats and add them via ctrl-8 ^^.

Then maybe you should be aware of a cheat that Baldur's Gate forces on you. Any roll with a total of less than 75 is automatically discarded. It's possible to remove points to get such a result, but the computer will never offer it to you on it's own.

Oh, and here is something to all the people that think your roll was too good to be true.
This was done with a human fighter:

[Redcoat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the odds of rolling that something like 1 in 101,559,957,000,000?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Not quite, but the dimension is right. (strength cannot be lower than 9 and, as mentioned, totals of less than 75 are discarded)
It's also not entirely legal...
There was a contest once on the old boards who could show the best rolls, and I wasn't even close to the top with that picture. But since it was the best one that could in theory be legal, it's also the one I'm still using for bragging purposes from time to time.

[Redcoat]

*warmly recalls obsessively rolling stats for about two hours trying to get a good number. "91? That's pretty high...BUT IT CAN BE HIGHER, DAMN IT!"

I also discovered that, if your CON stat is too low, then it's possible for your character to die in the opening cutscene of BG1. At which point I rather expected the game to end with the narrator wryly stating, "Well, that about wraps it up for CHARNAME, I guess."

[BelgarathMTH]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I have any problem with anybody playing with any stats they want. I use cheats myself all the time, and I swear by Shadowkeeper.

My point was just that overdoing it can spoil the fun. You should give yourself some vulnerabilities and limitations that make sense for your role-playing idea. Even Superman has to worry about Kryptonite.

@Redcoat, LOL!

BTW - I could have worded my first post more diplomatically. I apologize for any offense caused.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 29 juin 2011 - 12:07 .

[AnonymousHero]

Carinna wrote...

Fuinris, I think you'll find that a lot of people here throw the word "cheating" around very casually and tend to imply to all the other posters (ALL of them) that "you don't play exactly the way I find it fun/challenging/entertaining to play, therefore the way "you" (collective you) play is "cheating."

Cheating has a very simple (technical) definition: Breaking the rules of the game. For example: Ctrl+8 is cheating since you can only do it by enabling "Debug Mode" (which was clearly meant for the developers/testers to be able to test more easily since it's an undocumented baldur.ini switch).

AFAICT the problem people have with being "accused" of cheating is entirely with the negative connotations of the word "cheating". At least when I use the word, I'm using it in its technical sense and I suspect many others here are.

It's entirely possible to play the game without anything that can be construed as cheating (even non-developer fixpacks and such).

Lest anyone think I'm some sort of weird purist: I cheat regularly, for example to fix game breaking bugs in my no-reloads. I also give my solo characters a Bag of Holding at the start of BG2. I also sometimes Ctrl+J to get around a little faster (when I'm 100% sure that there would be no possible hindrances if I took the normal route, e.g. on the fedex quests in Irenicus' dungeon once all threats have been eliminated), etc.

There's nothing wrong with cheating in BG unless you're somehow misrepresenting to others what you're doing. (But even then the thing that would be wrong would be the misrepresentation, not the cheating itself.)

[Humanoid_Taifun]

AnonymousHero wrote...
Cheating has a very simple (technical) definition: Breaking the rules of the game.

*Checking the dictionary*
There is one definition I found that comes close to your offered one.

from Collins English Dictionary
cheat
[tʃiːt]
vb
1. to deceive or practise deceit, esp for one's own gain; trick or swindle (someone)
2. (intr) to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game of cards
3. (tr) to escape or avoid (something unpleasant) by luck or cunning to cheat death
4. (when intr, usually foll by on) Informal to be sexually unfaithful to (one's wife, husband, or lover)
n
1. a person who cheats
2. a deliberately dishonest transaction, esp for gain; fraud
3. Informal sham
4. (Law) Law the obtaining of another's property by fraudulent means
5. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Plants) the usual US name for rye-brome.

As I understand it, the deceit-bit rather important. You can break rules in any number of ways, but only if you hide your actions, employing lies and trickery for this purpose, you are actually cheating.
Of course, another question is how you are supposed to determine on such a general level when somebody is breaking the rules in a game of his/her own design. Yes, Bioware wrote the original game, but with some of us running the program with dozens of modifications, it's obvious that very few people (if any) actually play by the rules that were set for us by the developer team. House rules are common practise with PnP RPGs. Why shouldn't they be common practise with CRPGs?

For example: Ctrl+8 is cheating since you can only do it by enabling "Debug Mode" (which was clearly meant for the developers/testers to be able to test more easily since it's an undocumented baldur.ini switch).

Debug Mode could also be understood as your easy solution to bugs. There is a heap of bugs even in the unmodded game, and sometimes you actually need the console to mend things.
Yes, it's difficult to see how getting all-18s is relevant to fixing bugs. But it could be used for recreating previously rolled characters that you lost in some unfair manner (or that you rolled up with the wrong alignment, race or kit). Or else it can now be used to bypass one of the possibly most boring and drawn-out non-parts of the game.

AFAICT the problem people have with being "accused" of cheating is entirely with the negative connotations of the word "cheating". At least when I use the word, I'm using it in its technical sense and I suspect many others here are.

That's because they are part of the definition.

It's entirely possible to play the game without anything that can be construed as cheating (even non-developer fixpacks and such).

That doesn't mean that that's the best or official way to play it.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 29 juin 2011 - 05:54 .

[Carinna]

AnonymousHero wrote...
Cheating has a very simple (technical) definition: Breaking the rules of the game.

H_T's analysis aside, I don't have a problem with your definition of cheating.  What I would take issue with here is your (and others') definition of  "game."  For some, "game" is defined as exactly as it came out of the box, any alteration causing it to no longer be a game, apparently.  For others of us, the "game" of Baldur's Gate is defined as any version modified to give us pleasure in the playing.  Some like it harder, some easier.  To each his own.  The only time the definition of "game" must be agreed upon 100% by two or more people is if they are playing it together in competition.

In this way, every time I create a new game, with or without mods installed, I create the "rules" of the game when I begin.  While the fact that I might set up these rules myself might break other's rules, in my view the rules are not broken unless I deviate from them during the course of the game (for instance, I set the rules of the game so that I have the item randomizer mod installed, and then I get irritated that I don't find artifact X where it should be or before I get to where it usually is, so I use Shadowkeeper to "get" it). But even then, I would be cheating against myself - and fully aware of it  - so that I would not need another person's judgement on me to tell me "you cheated!"

Also, I believe you missed the actual spirit of my original post on this subject - it wasn't to define cheating for all time, but to reassure the OP that no one was attacking him. 

Edited to add: Just wanted to also comment that people seem to always consider if someone needs to make the game easier that they are "cheating;" while making the game ridiculously hard (Tactics mod) is not considered cheating.  By AH's definition, both of these break the rules of the game.  The difference between them (easy vs. hard) stems from advantage gained during competition.  We are not competing against each other here.

Modifié par Carinna, 29 juin 2011 - 11:49 .

[silenceall]

Back to the original topic...

I believe you mentioned a Berzerker/Cleric and were curious about stats and axe proficiency. First, no Fighter/Cleric dual or multi should waste a point on any pointy weapons (including axe) because a cleric can't use them, ever (rogue UAI notwithstanding). Second, I'm not sure from your post if you were planning to have a multi-class or dual class character. If a multi-class (both classes advancing simultaneously) then you can't have the Berzerker kit without "cheating" by adding it in Shadow Keeper or some other game editor. If you are going to dual class (Berzerker to Cleric) you must be human and have a minimum of 15 Strength and 17 Wisdom to have the cleric dual option...

[Humanoid_Taifun]

It's not charisma that is lowered during the game (unless you are using the wrong weapon) but dexterity (1 point, if you are playing a good guy) and one attribute of your choosing (but not charisma IIRC).

[Carinna]

Fuinris wrote...
Yeah, thank you for adding this I firstly think I should go throwing axes to get a range weapon that berserkes can't specially in otherwise.

An axe is still considered a pointy weapon so far as a cleric is concerned.  Clerics can't use axes either (they can't use any weapon that breaks the skin).  The only ranged weapon available to clerics is the sling.  So once you dual to cleric, any points you have in axes will be wasted.

[silenceall]

Fuinris wrote...

I think I will lower charisma anyway. Turning undead is not so powerful with 10 charisma and decreasing it to 9 is not much worse.

So I will get dex 17. See I lost a point due to my bad knowledge. But it doesn't bother me.

Unless I've been missing something all these years, turning undead is solely dependent upon cleric (or paladin) level and has nothing to do with charisma, so you can definitely lower Ch to increase D.

As far as your weapon proficiencies, I agree with your choices except that I'd probably use hammers instead of clubs to start off.  Once your Fighter levels are reactivated you can add additional *s to proficiencies you've chosen.