310 réponses à ce sujet

[Father_Jerusalem]

Marionetten wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

So what you're saying is, instead of just putting a tutorial in the game and allowing us to access it any time, I'd have to download something else and then either alt-tab every time I needed to look something up, thus "breaking immersion" as you... ah... people... like to say or waste an assload of money on ink to print it out. 

Instead of hitting the "H" key for "Help" or something. Bad design is bad. 

The arrogance here is truly astounding.

What I'm saying is that the manual is available for download for free online and that your argument of "what if I lost it" holds no merit whatsoever as it's easily replaceable. Also, alt-tabbing brings you no more out of the experience than bringing up a help section would. Your precious immersion is ruined either way.

What you're saying is that it's my responsibility to read every single detail of a badly written manual in order to figure out the most basic of concepts instead of the game actually teaching me how to, I don't know, switch swords. Or use a potion.

That is flat out bad design.

And I honestly don't care about immersion, I was mocking people like you who bring it up constantly - but alt-tabbing does have the drawback of making the game more unstable, leading to more crashes, and... the H button doesn't. So....

[In Exile]

Kronner wrote...
I never said manual is there to "teach" you anything. I said it merely told you where to look for stuff you do not know.

A tutorial is there to teach you how to play the game. If the manual doesn't teach you how to play the game, saying it would be a substitute for a tutorial is wrong.

Marionnette doesn't think a game should have tutorials. I disagree, but I respect that opinion. Saying a manual is a substittue for a tutorial isn't the same thing.

And if you do not understand why you have two swords etc., reading the manual will tell you why..why is that wrong? Anyone familiar with the Witcher universe will not be annoyed by needless tutorials or pop-ups and the rest can read the manual.

Why should anyone be familiar with the Universe?

I'd much prefer no tutorial + manual than the other way around. These games are not complex or anything, they are actually pretty simple. For me it was refreshing to see a game introduction/tutorial like that.

You mean, one where the game expects you to learn on your own? That's fair enough. My point is that a manual isn't a substitute for a tutorial.

[Marionetten]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

What you're saying is that it's my responsibility to read every single detail of a badly written manual in order to figure out the most basic of concepts instead of the game actually teaching me how to, I don't know, switch swords. Or use a potion.

That is flat out bad design.

And I honestly don't care about immersion, I was mocking people like you who bring it up constantly - but alt-tabbing does have the drawback of making the game more unstable, leading to more crashes, and... the H button doesn't. So...

I've yet to bring up immersion in this thread. Instead of attempting to mock and deride people I'd suggest paying more attention to your half-assed argument as you're in no position to do either right now. And how exactly is the manual badly written again? At this point I highly suspect that you've just got an axe to grind.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

In Exile wrote...

For me, it was the right about of kill, so to speak. I'll expand below.

Here's the thing: if you never replay a game, you don't ever know how meaningful a choice was. To see whether a choice really matters, you have to replay the sequence with a different choice.

Yeah, no disagreement there - I was mostly playing devil's advocate for a more linear design. I really like the fact that replaying the game lets you see how massive the consequences for your choices were It's a really cool aspect of the game, and it will be interesting to see if ME3 has that level of responsiveness, or a level of responsiveness closer to DA:O or SMT:DS.

Part of it is just a straight design question - do they want to maximize content for single playthroughs or multiple playthroughs? I'd imagine they've been gathering data on how many playthroughs the average player did, so I think we can expect that to set the actual decision for how they design the game's structure.

[Kronner]

In Exile wrote...
Why should anyone be familiar with the Universe?

I didn't say you should be familiar with the Universe. I said that if you were familiar with the Universe, you would understand the game right from the get go.

In Exile wrote...
You mean, one where the game expects you to learn on your own? That's fair enough. My point is that a manual isn't a substitute for a tutorial.

I agree. I never said otherwise. I said that if one read the manual, one would know where to find in-game tutorial that can be accessed at any time.

[Mister Mida]

Ok, lemme get this straight. This thread started out as a discussion about how the ME team can learn from CDP Red and vice versa, and now it's about ****ing about TW2's tutorial, which is like only an issue in the first (few) hour(s)?

Good job, folks. Expect a lockdown any second now.

OT: I don't feel Bioware should copy CDP Red or vice versa to the letter, because that's simply copying. Bioware gives one type story-driven RPG while CDP Red gives another. They can co-exist, assuming neither of them is gonna suck.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Kronner wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

So what you're saying is,
instead of just putting a tutorial in the game and allowing us to access
it any time, I'd have to download something else and then either
alt-tab every time I needed to look something up, thus "breaking
immersion" as you... ah... people... like to say or waste an assload of
money on ink to print it out. 

Instead of hitting the "H" key for "Help" or something. Bad design is bad. 

The arrogance here is truly astounding.

LOL
If you read that manual ONCE, you'd know you can find everything in the in-game journal.
Have you even played the game?

I played some of the first game, which was had ridiculously terrible combat, inanely written quests, and was less video game and more virtual sex simulator complete with "Gotta Catch em All!" sex cards.

Why would I even bother with the sequel when it's just more of the same? Not to mention, I lack the pretentiousness gene which is required to play the game, apparently. 

That's what the box should advertise! "DRM free! Pretentiousness required! And boobs! Lots of boobs!"

[lobi]

In Exile wrote...
 My point is that a manual isn't a substitute for a tutorial.

Yes it is. I would go further and say a manual is the better option for learning how to play a game properly.
Unless it is console version, then just spam the controller.

[In Exile]

lobi wrote...
Yes it is. I would go further and say a manual is the better option for learning how to play a game properly.
Unless it is console version, then just spam the controller.

No, it's empirically false. You can google procedural learning if you want.

[CroGamer002]

Ringo12 wrote...

Baldur's Gate had a great manual that helped me out a lot.

I never played that game.
But KOTOR, also an old game, has proper and fun tutorial.

Lazy game design in ME2 where you don't need a manual or anything because they stripped so much same with DA2.

WHAT. THE. F*CK?!

Game telling me how to freaking play the game is LAZY DESIGN?!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Reading manual to learn how to play a game is basically developer saying: "We didn't bother to make game guide you how to play it. Here, read this manual and good luck figuring out on your own when and how to play it."

Like I quoted a Bio dev before
"While I hate the 'it's killing immersion' line as much as the next designer, because it's really just a translation of 'I don't like it',"

Your point?

If your telling me reading a manual that is written IN CHARACTER, who is a bard and write and sings ofcourse, breaks your immersion I have to believe you just hate it. Hell Geralt carries a book on his armor across his chest.

What immersion?
I'm talking about how to make a proper and fun tutorial.

And he having book doesn't cut it.
That thing should just remind me if I forgot to play a game after not playing it for a while for some reason( vacation for example) and not having to play game from start.

But making it required to learn how to play a game is bollocks!

[DragonRageGT]

The whole prologue is a fraking tutorial. Not only it display the necessary information (for a longer time now since patch 1.1) but it teaches the player what to do to play the game. Perhaps some people need to go to Game/Options and set the tutorial ON. Default is ON but who knows, some may have turned it off because they so good at games...

I wish BW and CDPR can continue as great devs they are. But BW has dropped the ball with its latest release and it wouldn't hurt them to work real hard to make a masterpiece, just like CDPR has done.

[Apollo Starflare]

In Exile wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Edit: ^^ Speaking of which, anyone else kinda want to see BioWare try their hand at a more open sandbox-y type of game at some point? Obviously they specialise in their own style, but they also make a big deal about being experimental and innovotive. 

BG, Bioware's first entry into the RPG genre aeons ago, was sandbox-ish.

Look at the ridiculous failure that was DA2 in terms of city design and Bioware's general inability to plan out cities & locations, I think they'd do a terrible job.

True enough, I have still not played those so I tend to forget. /musteducatemyself.

Kirkwall was definitely not an advertisment for BioWare's ability to do sandbox or similar, but then I don't think it was intended to be. A big part of the problem with the short dev time for me was that for whatever reason they didn't seem to nail down what they wanted from the area itself. Was it an almost GTA-like city? An Origins like area? Some of the ideas such as the ten year time span just didn't gel with the end result for me because of this.

I quite like running around the city, and I like imagining how the characters are getting to the various districts when I click on one from the map, but particularly on later playthroughs it can't escape the feeling that it should feel a lot more connected and be evolving much more over time. Especially when you look at some similar games based around one area/city.

I suppose in a roundabout what though what I am getting at is that DA2, for one reason or another, doesn't present the definitive answer to the question of whether BioWare could ever make a more open game (ala ES). If they were to ever undertake such a project it would no doubt have to be given a decent amount of time and resources, it would be a 'from scratch' development and not a quick turnaround sequel or similar. As such I doubt we'll ever find out what BioWare would do with that style, as it stands I just don't see them putting aside that amount of resources on something that could be a big gamble. Certainly not after TOR and everything.

But that doesn't stop me wondering. Especially when I go back and play ES games with mods, in particular companion character mods and others that add elements more commonly associated with BioWare-style games.

...And hey, Obsidian did alright with NV! Not to mention how the ME team have adapted to developing the shooter mechanics.

[Cyberfrog81]

I know about procedural learning, but it doesn't apply to "hit 'J' to open Journal".

[crimzontearz]

lobi wrote...

In Exile wrote...
 My point is that a manual isn't a substitute for a tutorial.

Yes it is. I would go further and say a manual is the better option for learning how to play a game properly.
Unless it is console version, then just spam the controller.

I have taught how to properly shoot a gun to the newcomers at the TSN in Padova. I COULD just have given them a manual instead of showing them but you know what? they seemed to learn muuuuch better if I actually showed them

[Kronner]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

I played some of the first game, which was had ridiculously terrible combat, inanely written quests, and was less video game and more virtual sex simulator complete with "Gotta Catch em All!" sex cards.

Why would I even bother with the sequel when it's just more of the same? Not to mention, I lack the pretentiousness gene which is required to play the game, apparently. 

That's what the box should advertise! "DRM free! Pretentiousness required! And boobs! Lots of boobs!"

I see you're a big fan. Whatever, enjoy your view.

[C9316]

Jeez, now we gotta compare Mass Effect with The Witcher. What a world oh what a world.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Marionetten wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

What you're saying is that it's my responsibility to read every single detail of a badly written manual in order to figure out the most basic of concepts instead of the game actually teaching me how to, I don't know, switch swords. Or use a potion.

That is flat out bad design.

And I honestly don't care about immersion, I was mocking people like you who bring it up constantly - but alt-tabbing does have the drawback of making the game more unstable, leading to more crashes, and... the H button doesn't. So...

I've yet to bring up immersion in this thread. Instead of attempting to mock and deride people I'd suggest paying more attention to your half-assed argument as you're in no position to do either right now. And how exactly is the manual badly written again? At this point I highly suspect that you've just got an axe to grind.

Oh I absolutely do have an axe to grind against you and the people like you who come into every thread and scream about how the Witcher is the greatest thing since air and how if you haven't played it or don't like it, you're a pathetic noob who should be banned from ever playing a video game ever again. I absolutely despise that elitism and arrogance. 

You like The Witcher. We. Get. It. Mass Effect is NOT the Witcher. Dragon Age is NOT the Witcher. These forums are NOT the Witcher forums. Even after being told REPEATEDLY by mods to discuss the Witcher in Off-Topic forums, you people consistently come to the main forums to talk about how awesome the Witcher is and how everything else is terrible in comparison. 

And my argument is that a manual is no substitute for a tutorial, it's not half-assed, it's correct. Most people learn through experience, through doing - something a tutorial allows, something that a manual doesn't.

[lobi]

In Exile wrote...

lobi wrote...
Yes it is. I would go further and say a manual is the better option for learning how to play a game properly.
Unless it is console version, then just spam the controller.

No, it's empirically false. You can google procedural learning if you want.

Gaming is more than learning how to tie a shoe lace, (unless it's Darksiders).

[CroGamer002]

RageGT wrote...

The whole prologue is a fraking tutorial. Not only it display the necessary information (for a longer time now since patch 1.1) but it teaches the player what to do to play the game. Perhaps some people need to go to Game/Options and set the tutorial ON. Default is ON but who knows, some may have turned it off because they so good at games...

Problem isn't that it has no tutorial.

Problem is it's badly and lazy made tutorial.

[Alpha-Centuri]

To the OP:

Yes, actual meaningful branching paths based on your choices would be good. As it stands, Bioware has done a truly masterful job at making a linear game with little effect on the world, but with the aura of choice and consequence. In ME2, the plot points always happen the same way, it would be pretty cool if you could change that. Say in ME3 we can actually side against Legion and it makes an entirely different siding with Tali. As it is, its just a flag for an ending that plays out the same minus a character or two if you made the wrong decisions.

To everyone else: The point of the thread is not if TW2 is overrated, bad, or how ME2 is better. I believe the OP is simply a fan of Bioware hoping that the devs and creative designers for ME3 try to make a game where your choices matter that are significant and noticeable. You're going off-topic, and we have a TW2 thread in off-topic. This is not a topic about TW2. He just used the first game he thought of that is an example.

He could have used the Wing Commander series (example in WC3 where you are taunted after finding out Angel dies. You can stand and take the challenge, or retreat with your ship. It leads to a full-fledged different path, just like not doing some objectives will put you along a different, full albeit shorter path).

The point of the thread I believe is to see if people want their choices to visibly and substantially matter. If not, that's fine. Bioware is masters at what they do, and their formula is enjoyable. I do think it's a little misleading because I think Bioware's recent games (excluding DA:O) is like having the choice of white bread or wheat bread on your sandwich, while what the OP is proposing is having another meal all-together.

I might have misinterpreted it, but that's what I got out of it.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 19 juin 2011 - 06:42 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

virtual sex simulator

Cooper Lawrence? Is that you?

[Father_Jerusalem]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

virtual sex simulator

Cooper Lawrence? Is that you?

Yeah no. That was a completely made up story about nothing. The Witcher is about how many random chicks you can bang, going so far as to give you SEX CARDS for doing so.

If you can't understand how the two situations are different, and how The Witcher essentially treating women as trading cards to be collected so you can make sure to get the whole set is ACTUALLY offensive, then I just... I don't even know. 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

To the OP:

Yes, actual meaningful branching paths based on your choices would be good. As it stands, Bioware has done a truly masterful job at making a linear game with little effect on the world, but with the aura of choice and consequence. In ME2, the plot points always happen the same way, it would be pretty cool if you could change that. Say in ME3 we can actually side against Legion and it makes an entirely different siding with Tali. As it is, its just a flag for an ending that plays out the same minus a character or two if you made the wrong decisions.

To everyone else: The point of the thread is not if TW2 is overrated, bad, or how ME2 is better. I believe the OP is simply a fan of Bioware hoping that the devs and creative designers for ME3 try to make a game where your choices matter that are significant and noticeable. You're going off-topic, and we have a TW2 thread in off-topic. This is not a topic about TW2. He just used the first game he thought of that is an example.

He could have used the Wing Commander series (example in WC3 where you are taunted after finding out Angel dies. You can stand and take the challenge, or retreat with your ship. It leads to a full-fledged different path, just like not doing some objectives will put you along a different, full albeit shorter path).

The point of the thread I believe is to see if people want their choices to visibly and substantially matter. If not, that's fine. Bioware is masters at what they do, and their formula is enjoyable. I do think it's a little misleading because I think Bioware's recent games (excluding DA:O) is like having the choice of white bread or wheat bread on your sandwich, while what the OP is proposing is having another meal all-together.

I might have misinterpreted it, but that's what I got out of it.

I really like the type of sandwich vs. type of meal analogy! Hopefully, since this is the last installment in the series. the devs will have the freedom to authentically branch out vs. the previous method of including choices while minimizing story consequence of those choices. You could make a very good case that the reason we didn't have much in the way of consequence in ME 1&2 was that the ending for any set of choices needs to fit well with the next game, and it's going to be cool to see what Bioware does when that restriction's removed.

[Marionetten]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

And my argument is that a manual is no substitute for a tutorial, it's not half-assed, it's correct. Most people learn through experience, through doing - something a tutorial allows, something that a manual doesn't.

Ignoring your obnoxious posturing and focusing on what actually is relevant to the discussion.

You're absolutely right in that people learn by doing. However, a pop-up is no more conductive to this than a line of text found within a manual. You could argue that it's more accessible in which case I'd be inclined to agree but the end result is exactly the same. You read followed by attempting.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

If you can't understand how the two situations are different, and how The Witcher essentially treating women as trading cards to be collected so you can make sure to get the whole set is ACTUALLY offensive, then I just... I don't even know.

... As opposed to gaining achievements for bagging your prey?

Please.

Modifié par Marionetten, 19 juin 2011 - 06:56 .

[Rovay]

I bet this thread is going to get locked in no more than two next pages.