I wouldn't mind a higher level cap either. I rather liked the way it was in Dragon Age 2 in that there is really no way (other then using the creator interface) to reach the max level. That said there was still plenty of points to buy a truck load of abilities.
Raise the max level back up to 50 or 60
Débuté par
legion624
, juin 19 2011 12:16
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 02:52
TokkanRAM
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Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.
The fact that the level cap gets hit in one playthrough in ME2 pretty much the only reason I never used NG+ in ME2. Whenever I started another playthrough, I just started another character from scratch. I don't like the idea of there being no character progression in my RPG, so hitting the level cap just takes away all the fun.
The fact that the level cap gets hit in one playthrough in ME2 pretty much the only reason I never used NG+ in ME2. Whenever I started another playthrough, I just started another character from scratch. I don't like the idea of there being no character progression in my RPG, so hitting the level cap just takes away all the fun.
#53
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 02:54
Mr Powers94
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Hope they decide to bring back lvl 60 cap. or maybe even higher.
#54
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 02:55
Zanallen
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I like playing again, but I like playing with a new Shepard who makes different choices. Replaying with the same Shepard just to hit the level cap seems boring to me.
#55
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 02:57
LPPrince
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I don't see why you'd place expectations on one developer to make something that compares directly to that of another developer. Indirectly, sure, but directly? Yikes.
Ridiculously high expectations won't be met because they'll keep rising higher and higher.
Ridiculously high expectations won't be met because they'll keep rising higher and higher.
#56
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:06
konfeta
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Because I expect Bioware to evolve. Mass Effect's 1 combat was tragedy of balance and mechanics. Mass Effect's 1 RPG elements was a tragedy of archaic design decisions and shoddy execution. Mass Effect's new game plus was a bad decision for all the reasons I already listed.
From my perspective, ME1 was a very mediocre game which was the child of grand ambition, breaking new ground, limited resource, and inexperience. Despite its overall mediocrity, I gave it a major pass because it was enjoyable enough in a variety of ways that outweighed the negatives. The pronouncement that it was a trilogy gave me hope that sequels will improve on its formula.
That expectation was met with ME2 - it cut away the toxic fats, refined Bioware's formula into something stronger than it was before. I felt it was a stronger RPG (from my perspective, ME2's RPG elements had far more depth than any of the ME1 offerings despite the lower complexity/amount), I felt it was stronger combat, and I liked how they cut off the NG+ implementation I despised.
As such, I don't want Bioware to degrade. If they cut something, they should either keep it cut or bring it back in form that is good.
From my perspective, ME1 was a very mediocre game which was the child of grand ambition, breaking new ground, limited resource, and inexperience. Despite its overall mediocrity, I gave it a major pass because it was enjoyable enough in a variety of ways that outweighed the negatives. The pronouncement that it was a trilogy gave me hope that sequels will improve on its formula.
That expectation was met with ME2 - it cut away the toxic fats, refined Bioware's formula into something stronger than it was before. I felt it was a stronger RPG (from my perspective, ME2's RPG elements had far more depth than any of the ME1 offerings despite the lower complexity/amount), I felt it was stronger combat, and I liked how they cut off the NG+ implementation I despised.
As such, I don't want Bioware to degrade. If they cut something, they should either keep it cut or bring it back in form that is good.
#57
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:11
LPPrince
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Well, then I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree on the subject of level progression.
Good discussion though. I like hearing from both sides.
Good discussion though. I like hearing from both sides.
#58
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:11
FluffyScarf
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Is this another archaic notion that simply won't go away? KotOR had a low level cap. How many people finished the game and thought "gosh this game would have been better if I were at level 100?" Maybe the half dozen anoraks here. The cap is one of the least important issues M3 could have.
Modifié par FluffyScarf, 19 juin 2011 - 03:12 .
#59
Guest_luk4s3d_*
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:13
Guest_luk4s3d_*
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LPPrince wrote...
Arcian wrote...
No, this FORCES replayability and is a terrible way to keep the experience of the game fresh.scyphozoa wrote...
This promotes replayability and is great for NewGame+, IMO.
How does it force replayability? You don't have to hit the level cap to enjoy the game(well, maybe you do. I don't, but then again, I play these games over and over and over again).
If the level cap is hit in the first playthrough, when playing the game again, there's no progression. It makes NG+ a tad pointless.
If the level cap is hit in 2 or 3 playthroughs, it means when taking advantage of NG+, there will be progression up until that point. Meaning there will always be progression, both for first playthroughs and later ones.
Of course, when you play the game a good 6 times or so, there won't be any progression, but I think most folks don't play THAT much. I'd say the average(just an estimate, I'm guessing here) is a good 2-4 per player, not counting those who never finished the game.
Bioware wants people to keep playing their games more than once. Making the level cap unreachable in one playthrough is a good way to reward those who continue.
For those who stick to one and then bounce, well....I guess I'm not on that boat. Obviously I'll disagree with it.
I should note that I'm being a little selfish here. Being that I play the games so much, I'd like a reward for continuing on past a single playthrough.
Those who play the game and put it down matter. Honestly, I do think they matter, and I do think they should be attended to, but not as much as those who are going to KEEP playing the game.
So while hitting the level cap in one playthrough might be fine for you, for me, it isn't. I respectfully disagree with you, and I want you to know that you're not wrong for having your opinion.
But I'll keep pushing for mine. Its all I can hope to do, since I feel the leveling mechanic of ME1 was superior to 2, as far as reaching the level cap is concerned.
Well said buddy, i totally agree!
I Still play ME with my first character, after over 400 hours, and ME2 with over 20 completions so i know what you mean.
Having a higher level cap is great for guys like us, who will still be playing ME3 in years.
I dont want to hit the cap before i'v finished my first playthrough, it just doesnt seem fair on the hardest of the hardcore, they are BWs core fanbase, right?
#60
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:17
TokkanRAM
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Personally, I'd prefer a game where the level cap was actually impossible to reach over a game where it is reached close to the end on the first playthrough and halfway through on every playthrough afterwards. ME2 sometimes gets really tedious because of this. Battles that are supposed to be hard become far too easy.
Modifié par TokkanRAM, 19 juin 2011 - 03:18 .
#61
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:25
Guest_Arcian_*
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If you're going to respond or comment on what I say, quote me instead of talking about me in third person.TokkanRAM wrote...
Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.
The fact that the level cap gets hit in one playthrough in ME2 pretty much the only reason I never used NG+ in ME2. Whenever I started another playthrough, I just started another character from scratch. I don't like the idea of there being no character progression in my RPG, so hitting the level cap just takes away all the fun.
No, it's punishing me because silly RPG purists like you can't see the value of a game beyond stats and numbers. Like I said, I want to be at full power in the endgame in my first run, because it's a sensible progression where I am not forced to do the same f***ing **** again just to hit the cap.TokkanRAM wrote...
Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.
Mass Effect 2 allowed this, and it was an excellent system 1 million times superior to ME1's ludicrous grindfest. Plus, it was a bigger motivation to create new characters instead of grinding old ones through the EXACT same quests, enemies and zones for no other reason than to hit level cap. I f***ing hated that in ME1. ME1's system meant I had to do every single quest in the game to hit 58, and then do absolutely everything AGAIN just to get those last two levels for the level 60 bonus. It wasn't fun at all, just incredibly frustrating.
Good, that's the entire point. NG+ is for people wanting to try the Hardcore/Insanity achievements, the people who doesn't want to spend senseless amount of hours to find all weapons/armor pieces/mods all over again or the people who want to try new choices with the same character that they've grown attached to.TokkanRAM wrote...
The fact that the level cap gets hit in one playthrough in ME2 pretty much the only reason I never used NG+ in ME2. Whenever I started another playthrough, I just started another character from scratch.
It's not to force people to grind their way through the game all over again just to hit the level cap when it should have been hit in the endgame on the first run.
Grinding through the same content all over again to unlock something that should be available in the endgame =//= Character Progression.TokkanRAM wrote...
I don't like the idea of there being no character progression in my RPG, so hitting the level cap just takes away all the fun.
#62
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:25
konfeta
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Fair enough.Well, then I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree on the subject of level progression.
Define "core fanbase." Because you are most certainly not the group that is keeping Bioware afloat income wise. And I strongly suspect that people who play games for sake of making hundreds of characters to replay the game with multiple times with are mostly situated around games like Torchlight, Diablo, Titan Quest, Sacred, etc. as those games series individually do more to cater to that gameplay preference than all of Bioware's projects combined.I dont want to hit the cap before i'v finished my first playthrough, it just doesnt seem fair on the hardest of the hardcore, they are BWs core fanbase, right?
Not to say that Bioware doesn't have those kind of dedicated fans, yes, but I hardly suspect they are anything but a minority in the grand scheme of things.
Modifié par konfeta, 19 juin 2011 - 03:26 .
#63
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:30
SNascimento
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Max level is just a random number, what matters is how you spend the levels you gain.
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In ME1 you had 60 but a lot of times you didn't even noticed that you leveled up. because you knew that it changed so little that you didn't even need to spend the points you gained.
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In ME2 you had just 30 levels but the leveling system was better handled. Or even in KoTOR, where you had only a 20 level cap, but it one had a big weight.
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In ME1 you had 60 but a lot of times you didn't even noticed that you leveled up. because you knew that it changed so little that you didn't even need to spend the points you gained.
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In ME2 you had just 30 levels but the leveling system was better handled. Or even in KoTOR, where you had only a 20 level cap, but it one had a big weight.
#64
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:34
Walker White
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PsychoWARD23 wrote...
No, in a Gameinformer podcast one of the devs said that.Arrow70 wrote...
ItsFreakinJesus wrote...
Last I heard, the cap was 60, and carrying over your ME2 file would start you at level 30 in ME3. Granted, plans could've changed, but that was the original intent.
That was never confirmed, only a rumor
However some devs have said you may get some bounese but nothing that large
And one of the E3 sessions with Jesse Houston, he confirmed there would be a level reset.
There is no way we are starting this game at 30. Because then the only way to balance the game would to have new players with no ME2 save starting at level 30 and that is not going to happen.
I am predicting level 5 again. This is trivial to explain without breaking lore. You just rescale the powers so that the old level 30 is roughly equal to the new level 5 in abilities.
#65
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:35
LPPrince
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Arcian wrote...
No, it's punishing me because silly RPG purists like you can't see the value of a game beyond stats and numbers. Like I said, I want to be at full power in the endgame in my first run, because it's a sensible progression where I am not forced to do the same f***ing **** again just to hit the cap.
Mass Effect 2 allowed this, and it was an excellent system 1 million times superior to ME1's ludicrous grindfest. Plus, it was a bigger motivation to create new characters instead of grinding old ones through the EXACT same quests, enemies and zones for no other reason than to hit level cap. I f***ing hated that in ME1. ME1's system meant I had to do every single quest in the game to hit 58, and then do absolutely everything AGAIN just to get those last two levels for the level 60 bonus. It wasn't fun at all, just incredibly frustrating.
Dude, you might want to relax. Lay off the hidden insults("RPG Purists like you" definitely wasn't meant positively) and the cursing, man.
You'll come off better that way and the developers will listen to you more instead of thinking you can't formulate a response without getting all angry.
#66
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:35
TokkanRAM
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@Arceus
I'm sorry. I just don't see the appeal in getting to max level. It just feels like my game has been cut short. As I said in my second post, I'd much rather an impossible to reach level cap.
Also, I didn't use NG+ even for Hardcore/Insanity. I don't see the point; that takes away 75% of the challenge. IMO, NG+ is entirely for redoing choices you felt were wrong while keeping all your stuff and not grinding to the cap or doing things on higher difficulties.
I'm sorry. I just don't see the appeal in getting to max level. It just feels like my game has been cut short. As I said in my second post, I'd much rather an impossible to reach level cap.
Also, I didn't use NG+ even for Hardcore/Insanity. I don't see the point; that takes away 75% of the challenge. IMO, NG+ is entirely for redoing choices you felt were wrong while keeping all your stuff and not grinding to the cap or doing things on higher difficulties.
Modifié par TokkanRAM, 19 juin 2011 - 03:42 .
#67
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:36
Commander Shep4rd
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Too many Gears fans now i miss the old RPG community
Modifié par Commander Shep4rd, 19 juin 2011 - 03:37 .
#68
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:37
Bluko
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CajNatalie wrote...
So if the cap was going to be Level 40... but then they decided... oh hey, let's add another 10 levels on without adjusting anything else... that would be a bad thing to some people?
Failing to comprehend. o.O
If you don't want to replay to get those levels, then don't. If you replay for any other reason, you can keep leveling up... just what the hell is so wrong with that?
This.
Some people's thought processes here really leave me to wonder sometimes what exactly their rationale is. That or some people are such extreme completionists that they are doing themselves no favors. Personally I find ME2's achievements a tad too easy since you can easily get them all I think in two playthroughs really.
Why set the goal bar low enough that anyone can do it? Why not set it a little higher so it actually means something? Give people incentives to keep the game, and to keep playing. That's the best way to stop people from selling their game off.
#69
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:39
Walker White
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SNascimento wrote...
In ME1 you had 60 but a lot of times you didn't even noticed that you leveled up. because you knew that it changed so little that you didn't even need to spend the points you gained.
This. All that mattered where the major power transitions (basic, advanced, master), which made it essentially less flexible than the 4 ranks + branch that we got in ME2.
#70
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:42
Commander Shep4rd
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Also,why is it a problem to start a whole new playthrough with the same cahracter? higher level cap only encourages NG+ as well as changing decisons you were unhappy with and etc. ME is one of those games that really makes you wanna do over 6 playthroughs maybe 10 it¨s replay value is just that high.
#71
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:47
Walker White
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CajNatalie wrote...
So if the cap was going to be Level 40... but then they decided... oh hey, let's add another 10 levels on without adjusting anything else... that would be a bad thing to some people?
What does that even mean? You get 10 more levels without getting any more abilities for those levels? Or without adjusting the difficulty of the end game to handle those extra levels? More levels on the same scale effects game balance and level design -- there is no way around that.
The only way to add more levels without changing anything else is to make each level mean less. That means less progression per level and the same progression over all. And this is uncalled for.
A lot of this discussion reminds me of the time in that we added a player to our pen-and-paper RPG group who had only played cRPGs. He eventually quit because the game did not level up fast enough (heck, we never got higher than level 12 over the course of the campaign); he simply could not handle the pacing of pen-and-paper RPGs.
#72
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:48
Good Chaos7
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I hated having it capped at 30, bottom portion full, only 1 point on ammo by default <_< Hopefully I'll be different in ME 3. I really miss the Renagade/Paragon system from Me 1 because at least by the 2nd or third play through I could choose the options I wanted.. were as in ME 2 I'm forced to be a goody goody no matter what! 
I prefer to play as if it were actually ME in the game! So yeah Bring it back to 60 or best, let us fill up the Damn Thing!
I prefer to play as if it were actually ME in the game! So yeah Bring it back to 60 or best, let us fill up the Damn Thing!
Modifié par Good Chaos7, 19 juin 2011 - 03:49 .
#73
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 03:54
Walker White
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Good Chaos7 wrote...
So yeah Bring it back to 60 or best, let us fill up the Damn Thing!
Being able to fill up all you skills hurts replayability. Because the Shepard with everything beats all other Shepards. It is exactly like the problem with weapons in ME1 and ME2. In ME2, the weapons all had unique play styles; in ME2 there is no reason to use anything other than a Spectre Master Gear X.
#74
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 04:01
TokkanRAM
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So yeah Bring it back to 60 or best, let us fill up the Damn Thing!
Yeah... no.
Being able to completely fill up all your skills hurts the experience, takes away the depth of having to choose what you invest your points in. IMO, just as bad if not worse than reaching the level cap.
Modifié par TokkanRAM, 19 juin 2011 - 04:03 .
#75
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 04:09
MrDizazta
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Idk about it. Maybe if the level 30 got transferred over as a level 30 than yeah I would agree, but it doesn't seem that that will happen
