129 réponses à ce sujet

[Good Chaos7]

Walker White wrote...

Good Chaos7 wrote...

So yeah Bring it back to 60 or best, let us fill up the Damn Thing!

Being able to fill up all you skills hurts replayability.  Because the Shepard with everything beats all other Shepards.  It is exactly like the problem with weapons in ME1 and ME2.  In ME2, the weapons all had unique play styles; in ME2 there is no reason to use anything other than a Spectre Master Gear X.

  Because the Shepard with everything beats all other Shepards?? wha?


Anyways that's just my Opinion, as for replayability, If your talking about the game being challenging, I don't play Mass Effect 1,2 for that.. :happy: I play it for it's story!  If I wanted it challenging, I'd play it on Insanity!  Casual for me!!

[LPPrince]

I'm on the multiple playthroughs for max level side, but definitely not the "fill every bar all the way" side.

That means everyone will inevitably have access to the same things no matter what. That sucks.

If anything(while on the subject) one thing I love about ME1 that was sorely missed in 2 was that when spending skill points, I could actually spend ALL OF THEM.

In ME2, for some builds, you'd have a point left over for Shepard and the squadmates.

That's ridiculous. A point should never be left over. They NEED to all be spent.

Still, we should be limited so that we can't max everything out. Variety in skill sets is good.

[konfeta]

Why set the goal bar low enough that anyone can do it? Why not set it a little higher so it actually means something? Give people incentives to keep the game, and to keep playing. That's the best way to stop people from selling their game off.

If the only incentive people have to keep playing is a promise of a grind to reach a higher level number, I daresay weening them off Bioware games is doing them a service.

[ME-ParaShep]

legion624 wrote...

That is my whole point, reaching the max level cap in less then 1 playthrough sucks.

I think that having a level cap be at 50 would be good enough to appease the majority of players who like to do a second playthrough with their characters. If the pace is the same as ME 2, that should be 1 and a half playthroughs (without DLC content) to reach the level cap. Which would bring a balance to longevity and also limit redundancy to unecessary multiple playthroughs to reach the level cap. Players wouldn't have to do more than 2 playthroughs with one of their characters to max their level and majority of players DON'T like to do more than 2 or 3 playthroughs to reach level cap. I know this because doing something over and over is boring. If you compare the amount of content that will be put into ME 3 from the basis of ME 2 and what Bioware stated of the content amount in ME 3 (which is similar to the amount mustered in ME 2's game content (DLC included) then ME 3 will have the same amount of content which is to say that there will be a plethora of activities to do. Doing 2 playthroughs will be ample enough to reach the peak of your character's development.

You know what would be the best method to ascertain the happiness of everyone who supports going through one or a couple playthroughs to reach level cap or to do 3+ playthroughs to reach level cap? Minimal level boost via max level imports. If players reached level 30 in ME 2 import their saved game to ME 3, players should receive several bonus levels (points included) to be at a slightly better advantage (due to series veterancy) in comparison to beginning the game from "scratch".

E.G. If you start off a playthrough with an imported Shepard that was max level. You should receive maybe.. a bonus 9 levels. That will make you level 10 or if you played ME 1, Reached level 60, and played ME 2 and reached level 30, the imported character should be boosted to level 20. If you think that bonus levels and points would place you at a particular advantage and make your first experience seem cheap. I remind you that enemies in particular are more challenging and brutal this time around than in ME 2. The skill points will definitely help you out in the long run as your progress through the game; especially on more difficult settings.

As for the game balancing perspective, I believe that adding a positive incentive to ME veterans who maxed out their characters from the 1st two games should be greatly rewarded for their dedication to the company who made the blockbuster series. Note that it's also a way to address the need to have skills up to boot when challenging strong foes on Hardcore and Insanity. Another reason I believe that bonus levels and skill points are essential to early game playthroughs via imports is because there are more skills/skill branches about in this game. Take a look.



^Notice how there are more skills to upgrade and the length to fully upgrade those skills are more arduous than in previous installments. Upgrading from scratch would be hard if you are playing your 1st playthrough on harder difficulties. Only ME veterans should be playing on Hardcore and Insanity on their first playthroughs anyways because new players would be wiped more easily due to enemy AI ferocity and lack of skill upgrades. With bonus skill points at your disposal, skills that are necessary to a players play-style will give the player a necessary edge to have a chance on the harder difficulties. By the time the 2nd playthrough commences, the fighting should be significantly easier than the 1st playthrough, as it should be. Bioware said it themselves. "Mass Effect 3 will be MORE DIFFICULT than the second game, but the team wants the challenge to be entertaining instead of frustrating." By the 2nd playthrough undoubtedly the experience will be very entertaining. The 1st playthrough will be entertaining as well.

http://t3.gstatic.co...d4HO_WKWqQw&t=1

^Also take a look at how diverse skill points can be allocated. Choosing certain skill branches has their own advantages to the player; thus making having more skills to have closer to unique effects per player. Choosing the right skill point slots is something worthy of contemplation. Choosing the wrong ones can result in a play-style that you're not accustomed to. Having more skill points from the beginning allows a player to have more leniency when making mistakes such as what I mentioned.

Well. Those explanations are my two cents on this matter. I hope Bioware officials review this thread. This topic is worthy of discussion. In order to maintain player dedication and happiness, the system needs to be improved and by publishing a combat system that's effective and balanced for the 1st and 2nd playthroughs for veteran players, Bioware can sustain majority of the players happiness because redundancy is limited and utility is vast, but not vast enough that it gives players too much of a boost to beat the game so easily.

P.S. Also make leveling from 40-50 in ME 3 significantly longer than reaching from 25-30 in ME 2 Reaching max level should be acquired sometime before the halfway mark of the 2nd playthrough.

[FlyingWalrus]

Mass Effect is not an MMO.

It doesn't need a monstrous level cap. Its levels need only be as numerous as needed to supplement the growth of talents. If it's true that our level from ME2 will carry over into ME3, then it's understandable that the level cap would be 50 or even 60 again. In ME1, the only reason there were so many levels was because there were so many talents that you increased in small increments that there NEEDED to be that many levels. You leveled up five to ten times per mission and you have to remember that with frequency there is a decrease in value. The more uncommon something is, the more valuable it is. Therefore, the fewer times you level up, the more thoughtful you have to be in terms of your investments.

The number of levels is of least concern to me. What is of interest to me is the number of points you get per level to advance talents and abilities.

[AlanC9]

This is why NG+ is a bad idea in the first place --- folks just aren't ever satisfied with the implementation.

[LPPrince]

AlanC9 wrote...

This is why NG+ is a bad idea in the first place --- folks just aren't ever satisfied with the implementation.

Ha. I think you can say that about everything in life. People are rarely ever universally satisfied with something.

That's why its hard to be a developer. They've got to make the hard choices of what works, what doesn't, what will make the most people happy, and what'll ****** the most people off.

Tough decisions that can make or break a game. The difference between Ocarina of Time and that old horrible Batman game I forgot the name of because it was THAT bad I had to wipe it from my memory banks.

[konfeta]

This is why NG+ is a bad idea in the first place --- folks just aren't ever satisfied with the implementation.

Doesn't help that there are very distinct styles of NG+. There are NG+ games of ME1 where all get is basically more levels, there are NG+ like Prototype where the whole idea is to be the super-powered end-game monster from the very beginning of the game, there are NG+ that exist solely to unlock new endings/dungeons, there are NG+ that are there to basically a continuation of the main game with its own designed progression. And mix of some or all of the above.

[ME-ParaShep]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Mass Effect is not an MMO.

It doesn't need a monstrous level cap. Its levels need only be as numerous as needed to supplement the growth of talents. If it's true that our level from ME2 will carry over into ME3, then it's understandable that the level cap would be 50 or even 60 again. In ME1, the only reason there were so many levels was because there were so many talents that you increased in small increments that there NEEDED to be that many levels. You leveled up five to ten times per mission and you have to remember that with frequency there is a decrease in value. The more uncommon something is, the more valuable it is. Therefore, the fewer times you level up, the more thoughtful you have to be in terms of your investments.

The number of levels is of least concern to me. What is of interest to me is the number of points you get per level to advance talents and abilities.

To keep the balance with the amount of points you get per level in relations to the vast skill upgrading possibilties that are going to take place in ME 3, there will have to be quite a bit of points per level up this time around than in ME 2. Typically you'd get 2 points per level up in ME 2, but starting from lvl 20 onwards you get one, but for this game I think that it's better if players get 3 or 4 points per level up to balance out point allocations. If players get to have bonus levels that also bring about bonus points, it would be helpful either way. It's not the matter of how many levels you gain, but the fact of the matter is how many points you get per level. My explanation from above stated how bonus levels would secure the necessary points for ME veterans starting a playthrough in ME 3. By the imagery I posted, it appears that plenty of points is acquired to max out 4 skills. Let's put it economically. The higher your skill point allocation slots are, the more points are necessary to fill out those slots which in turn leads to having more levels, but to balance the game play and to limit the amount of points you get per level, the level cap has to not be so high, yet be high enough that you can get the perfect amount of points to assume a players play style effectively. If level 50 is the cap, you'd be getting more points in the long run. The speed as to level up in ME 3 should be slightly slower than in ME 2, but not so slow as to give off negligence to a players efforts. This balance forms equilibrium in speed and point acquisition. It's not too fast or not too slow nor is it too many points gained per level or too few points gained per level. If the cap is 50 and if it is to correspond with the skill customizations. From seeing the imagery, I'd hypothesize that 4 points per level would suffice and after reaching 40, be reduced to 2 per level Which would make 156 points for the 1st 39 level ups and adding 2 points per level would make 20 points gained for the last 10 level upgrades making a total of 176. Noticing the amount of slots present in one of the images, if there are 6 slots per skill and if there are 8 powers to upgrade; then knowing that the amount of points needed to upgrade increases per upgrade, I can guess again that it would start from 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 making 36 points needed to max a skill. 36/176 is nearly a third of the total skill points that would be needed to fill out a skill. you can fill out nearly 5 out of 8 skills that way. It would be perfect for balancing damage, recharge, force, and overall efficiency of a skill to your liking.

^The above is just my way of guessing how skill customization should be balanced in ME 3 in general. As far as that goes with importing save games from ME 2 and receiving the perks.. if bonus levels and points work out the way I suggested it, that would be a pretty good perk for maxing out levels in the previous games. Also, doing such a method procures player diversity in their skills, it would force a player to think carefully and not waste skill points on a skill that is disruptive to their play style. It would breed a smarter gamer and forge an overall better and enjoyable/entertaining experience for those who like to play casually on lower diffuclties and to create a worthy challenge and fun tactical time for those who play on the harder difficulty settings.

[FlyingWalrus]

Whatever the case, I don't like this crap with the one remaining skill point that you can't do ANYTHING with at level 30.

[lazuli]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Whatever the case, I don't like this crap with the one remaining skill point that you can't do ANYTHING with at level 30.

To me, the annoying thing is not that remaining skill point, it's that the squad button in the main menu keeps pulsing, reminding me the skill point is there.

[FluffyScarf]

Gibbed ME2 Editor can fix that.

[wizardryforever]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of NG+.  I don't particularly like the idea of using an artificially high-powered character on the beginning monsters.  Now, as I understand it, Mass Effect (1 & 2) scale the enemies strength to match your character level, so it won't be as bad as say, Neverwinter Nights.  Of course, that doesn't stop people who like NG+ from using it to play the game again.

I feel that the perfect balance would be to make it so you reach the max level just before or during the final mission, but only if you did all the sidequests.  Adding DLC into that mix would screw up the balance, but that's what usually happens with DLC.  I don't think it should be easy to reach the level cap, you should be a completionist.  But, neither should you be required to play again with the same character to do so.  It almost feels like your character is weaker than he should be because you haven't hit the cap yet. 

Again, there is nothing stopping people from playing the game again with the same character to experience the story again (perhaps making different choices).  But I don't feel like a NG+ should be encouraged more than resarting with a new character.  Not discouraged, of course, just not favored.

[Juha81FIN]

ME-ParaShep wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

Mass Effect is not an MMO.

It doesn't need a monstrous level cap. Its levels need only be as numerous as needed to supplement the growth of talents. If it's true that our level from ME2 will carry over into ME3, then it's understandable that the level cap would be 50 or even 60 again. In ME1, the only reason there were so many levels was because there were so many talents that you increased in small increments that there NEEDED to be that many levels. You leveled up five to ten times per mission and you have to remember that with frequency there is a decrease in value. The more uncommon something is, the more valuable it is. Therefore, the fewer times you level up, the more thoughtful you have to be in terms of your investments.

The number of levels is of least concern to me. What is of interest to me is the number of points you get per level to advance talents and abilities.

To keep the balance with the amount of points you get per level in relations to the vast skill upgrading possibilties that are going to take place in ME 3, there will have to be quite a bit of points per level up this time around than in ME 2. Typically you'd get 2 points per level up in ME 2, but starting from lvl 20 onwards you get one, but for this game I think that it's better if players get 3 or 4 points per level up to balance out point allocations. If players get to have bonus levels that also bring about bonus points, it would be helpful either way. It's not the matter of how many levels you gain, but the fact of the matter is how many points you get per level. My explanation from above stated how bonus levels would secure the necessary points for ME veterans starting a playthrough in ME 3. By the imagery I posted, it appears that plenty of points is acquired to max out 4 skills. Let's put it economically. The higher your skill point allocation slots are, the more points are necessary to fill out those slots which in turn leads to having more levels, but to balance the game play and to limit the amount of points you get per level, the level cap has to not be so high, yet be high enough that you can get the perfect amount of points to assume a players play style effectively. If level 50 is the cap, you'd be getting more points in the long run. The speed as to level up in ME 3 should be slightly slower than in ME 2, but not so slow as to give off negligence to a players efforts. This balance forms equilibrium in speed and point acquisition. It's not too fast or not too slow nor is it too many points gained per level or too few points gained per level. If the cap is 50 and if it is to correspond with the skill customizations. From seeing the imagery, I'd hypothesize that 4 points per level would suffice and after reaching 40, be reduced to 2 per level Which would make 156 points for the 1st 39 level ups and adding 2 points per level would make 20 points gained for the last 10 level upgrades making a total of 176. Noticing the amount of slots present in one of the images, if there are 6 slots per skill and if there are 8 powers to upgrade; then knowing that the amount of points needed to upgrade increases per upgrade, I can guess again that it would start from 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 making 36 points needed to max a skill. 36/176 is nearly a third of the total skill points that would be needed to fill out a skill. you can fill out nearly 5 out of 8 skills that way. It would be perfect for balancing damage, recharge, force, and overall efficiency of a skill to your liking.

^The above is just my way of guessing how skill customization should be balanced in ME 3 in general. As far as that goes with importing save games from ME 2 and receiving the perks.. if bonus levels and points work out the way I suggested it, that would be a pretty good perk for maxing out levels in the previous games. Also, doing such a method procures player diversity in their skills, it would force a player to think carefully and not waste skill points on a skill that is disruptive to their play style. It would breed a smarter gamer and forge an overall better and enjoyable/entertaining experience for those who like to play casually on lower diffuclties and to create a worthy challenge and fun tactical time for those who play on the harder difficulty settings.

I agree, skill cap would define level cap

[Dangerfoot]

Making it so that players have to beat the same exact playthrough 3 times just to see what their character at it's peak is like would be pretty bad game design. More arbitrary levels =/= more content. It's also a terrible, terrible way to give a game "replayability". It really is. The very least they could do is make higher ranks of gear spawn in the second playthrough. I really don't want to have to playthrough my 6 characters 3 times each in order to just finish my talents off and nothing else. That just turns the game into a chore like an MMO or something.

[nitrog100]

It looks extremely possible that the level cap will be 60. The character shown in the E3 demo was level 18 and had 875 XP to go before leveling up. The XP bar was about halfway, so the level cap will most likely be way higher than 30.

[azerSheppard]

Stopped reading after realising op was noob, i can max lvl me1 in one play. I shouldn't have to do 5 like you.

Go play mmorpgs for endless grinding. Don't touch my ME

[Schneidend]

50 and 60 are just as arbitrary as 30. What matters is how much experience each level requires and how much experience a character receives. It's all relative.

[clerkenwell]

Here's my analysis based on the footage from E3.

OBVIOUS DISCLAIMER: The following analysis is based on screens that represent a work in progress. You would be ill-advised to expect all or even any of this analysis to remain true for the final game.

That said, analysis is fun! Let's get started.





Assumptions/observations based on the above screens:

-Shepard has 8 powers plus 1 bonus power
-Squadmates have 5 powers
-Powers have 6 levels
-Level 1 costs 1 point, level 2 costs 2 points, etc.
-It will take 21 points to max out a power
-It would take 189 points to max all of Shepard's powers
-It would take 105 points to max all of a squadmate's powers
-Squadmates earn one point per level
-Shepard earns two points per level up to at least level 18
-Leveling from 18 to 19 requires 1350 experience

So what conclusions can we draw from all of that? Well, first and foremost, the level cap is almost certainly not 30. Even if Shepard recieved 2 points for every level, that would only be 60 points, enough to fill out 36% of the entire tree. For the record, in both ME1 and ME2 you could fill out about 73% of Shepard's tree.

So pushing past 30, we could be looking at a cap of 50, 60 or both (NG+). This of course has a precedent in the form of ME1. Again assuming we get 2 points for every level (unlike in ME1 or 2), that would net Shepard 100 or 120 total points, or enough to fill out 53%/63% of the tree.

While these numbers are significantly lower compared to the 73% of ME1 and ME2, I don't think they are outside the realm of possibility. Because powers can be upgraded in an extremely non-linear fashion, I think it's possible the game will place a greater emphasis on tailoring powers to your playstyle rather than simply maxing them out to snag the evolution.

In fact, I can see this leading to one scenario that may be a potential balance issue. Because we can evolve powers throughout the levels, maxing out a power is going to require a seriously huge benefit to justify the point investment. Consider the following extremes:

Specialized Build


Balanced Build


The specialized build more closely resembles a common strategy for building a character in ME2, but with this new system those last two 5 and 6 point levels are going to have to provide some serious bang for your buck, possibly to the point of game-breaking. Either way, I'm very interested to see how it plays out. For comparison, a cap of 60 at 2 points per level would allow a balanced build to level 6 powers to the fifth tier and 3 to the fourth. Crazy. Now you could do something similar in ME2, max out just two powers and level the rest to the third tier, but restricting evolutions to the final tier made that an unattractive option. With the ability to evolve powers from the get go in ME3, this could be a much more viable strategy.

So what do I expect? in ME3? I expect a level cap of 60 and a max of 90-120 points. I think it's quite possible that we might see something like levels 1-30 giving 2 points and 31-60 giving 1 point for 90 total points. Or a 40/20 split for 100 points. Or a 50/10 split for 110 points. When it gets right down to it, I expect ME3 will allow you to create a powerful Shepard with a comparatively smaller number of points in relation to the amount you'd need to max all of the powers. Official prediction: Max level of 60 with a 40/20 split for point distribution, and the rise of the balanced build.

Final point of note: levels will not be 1000 points of experience each. Leveling 18-19 requires 1350 experience. It remains to be seen whether all levels will require 1350, or if the amount of experience per level will increase.

[CajNatalie]

Walker White wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

So if the cap was going to be Level 40... but then they decided... oh hey, let's add another 10 levels on without adjusting anything else... that would be a bad thing to some people?

What does that even mean?  You get 10 more levels without getting any more abilities for those levels?  Or without adjusting the difficulty of the end game to handle those extra levels? More levels on the same scale effects game balance and level design -- there is no way around that.

The only way to add more levels without changing anything else is to make each level mean less.  That means less progression per level and the same progression over all.  And this is uncalled for.

A lot of this discussion reminds me of the time in that we added a player to our pen-and-paper RPG group who had only played cRPGs.  He eventually quit because the game did not level up fast enough (heck, we never got higher than level 12 over the course of the campaign); he simply could not handle the pacing of pen-and-paper RPGs.

What I meant was that by not adjusting anything else other than the number of levels you can gain, there is absolutely zero - read it: NO DIFFERENCE all the way up to Level 40 than what was originally going to happen anyway.
The extra 10 levels are just a bonus that you can reach in a NG+ (maybe a couple of them in your first playthrough?), and didn't even have to be there.

I honestly don't understand how slapping on an extra 10 levels for the sake of 10 levels forces people to do anything... but then again, computer games use JEDI MIND TRICKS on people and people like Arcian must obey! 8D
Lol.
Also, I don't see why a game developer would have to go all the way to also making an entirely new game with those 10 levels (that's what sequels are for... duh... and there won't be any for ME3 anyway), one piece of chocolate is still chocolate. Some people are just greedy and want a whole kilogram block of chocolate, somehow expecting to be given two games when they're buying one game.

[LPPrince]

azerSheppard wrote...

Stopped reading after realising op was noob, i can max lvl me1 in one play. I shouldn't have to do 5 like you.

Go play mmorpgs for endless grinding. Don't touch my ME

The only way to reach max level in ME1 in one playthrough is I believe through the use of Pinnacle Station.

Otherwise, no, its not possible. You literally cannot hit level 60 in one playthrough.

[JockBuster]

I hope that in ME3 finishing the game WITH a boost from an ME2 import reaches max level just before the final battle; and therefore, starting a new game with OUT an import requires 2 playthrus with the same character kinna like ME1. Maxing out ME2 when you are about 1/2 way thru is kinna lame, it's OK but makes the game easier. After defeating the Reapers why would you want to continue with a NG+? The game is over. Starting a second NEW game with a 'different' Shepard, different class, different gender, different back story & CH said that there WOULD be different results depending you Shepard's back story for a totally different experience, THAT I can understand.

Modifié par JockBuster, 19 juin 2011 - 03:36 .

[Insom]

There's kind of a bad pacing with the leveling in ME2. There's so much quest content and you can be level 30 before you're done half of it. ME3 does need higher level cap for sure.

[Lumikki]

Please remove levels from game, they have no game world purpose and they aren't neccessary for games character progression design.

Modifié par Lumikki, 19 juin 2011 - 03:46 .