129 réponses à ce sujet

[LemurFromTheId]

TokkanRAM wrote...

Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.

Commander Shep4rd wrote...

Also,why is it a problem to start a whole new playthrough with the same cahracter? higher level cap only encourages NG+ as well as changing decisons you were unhappy with and etc. ME is one of those games that really makes you wanna do over 6 playthroughs maybe 10 it¨s replay value is just that high.

These are the arguments that I just don't get.

Yes, the ME1 model does indeed encourage NG+, but it's entirely the wrong thing to encourage.

Instead of grinding the game all over again with the same character with minimal progression in gameplay, we should be encouraged to create different characters with different skills, to try different builds, to explore different tactics and gameplay mechanics, to find completely new ways to play the game.

[nitrog100]

Well if clerkenwell is right and you need 189 points to max out all of Shepard's powers, and NG+ is coming back, then the level cap is definitely going to be higher, and you're definitely going to do at least two complete playthroughs to max out. I don't see why anyone had a problem with NG+ in ME1. It was really fun. Playing through the game starting at level 52 gave the whole experience a completely different feel. It only took 2 playthroughs to max out, and that's hardly a grind.

[crimzontearz]

Aedolon wrote...

TokkanRAM wrote...

Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.

Commander Shep4rd wrote...

Also,why is it a problem to start a whole new playthrough with the same cahracter? higher level cap only encourages NG+ as well as changing decisons you were unhappy with and etc. ME is one of those games that really makes you wanna do over 6 playthroughs maybe 10 it¨s replay value is just that high.

These are the arguments that I just don't get.

Yes, the ME1 model does indeed encourage NG+, but it's entirely the wrong thing to encourage.

Instead of grinding the game all over again with the same character with minimal progression in gameplay, we should be encouraged to create different characters with different skills, to try different builds, to explore different tactics and gameplay mechanics, to find completely new ways to play the game.

uh

I ONLY played NG+ in ME1 and I finished my progression after the 2nd playthrough. I have absolutely no interest in playing anything but my fully levelled vanguard at the moment and I actually LOATHE having to re-level characters. If I or anyone else wanted to try new builds, guess what, nothing prevents them from doing so. There is nothing wrong in promoting NG+ because just the fact that there ARE different classes and different builds already promotes starting new characters if one so desires

[LemurFromTheId]

crimzontearz wrote...

I ONLY played NG+ in ME1 and I finished my progression after the 2nd playthrough. I have absolutely no interest in playing anything but my fully levelled vanguard at the moment and I actually LOATHE having to re-level characters. If I or anyone else wanted to try new builds, guess what, nothing prevents them from doing so. There is nothing wrong in promoting NG+ because just the fact that there ARE different classes and different builds already promotes starting new characters if one so desires

Just the fact that there is NG+ already promotes continuing with the same character, if one so desires. It seems to me you're arguing for an early level cap so you can stop leveling as soon as possible.

To each his own. I think you're missing half the fun, but it's your game, and if that's the way you like to play, go ahead.

Anyway, just because there are six classes available doesn't mean players shouldn't be actively encouraged to try them out. Some people tend to be conservative and reluctant to move away from their comfort zone to try new things. For example, I originally had absolutely no interest to play engineer in ME2. Looking at the powers it just seemed boring. Now it's one of my favourites, and to think I almost never tried it in the first place...

[Tony Gunslinger]

NG+ in ME2 is great for playing around with new builds. You reset your points and select your bonus power in the previous playthru and import it. You don't spec anything and keep that 1st save while you're on the Cerebus lab. Feel like using cryo blast for the entire game and not for just 1/2 a game? Go for it. Ever feel you wish you had the Widow on Mordin's recruitment? There you go. Feel like dominating/AI hack YMIRs, Krogans and Collectors? You can.

NG+ isn't as hard as people claim it to be because you get to have AoE options on maxed powers, you have passive bonuses, and you have your weapon specialization from the start. Maxed drones and singularity will guarantee to lock down tough enemies from the start. ARush is fully maxed, and soldier don't benefit from research anyways. Infiltrator's sniper time dilation is maxed. Sentinels get their 30% cooldown and fully functional TA.

If you want to enjoy the game in general and not that interested in combat, then 1 playthrough should be good enough. NG+ is for people who like to powergame and find new strategies. Replayability shouldn't be enouraged by deliberately cutting off leveling in one playthrough. Max leveled characters should be available by the 3rd act instead of barely experiencing it until the last mission so that you get to enjoy your character, have enough time to try out different things, and master a few tricks that otherwise wouldn't be possible while you're busy leveling and keeping up with enemies.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 19 juin 2011 - 07:29 .

[crimzontearz]

Aedolon wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I ONLY played NG+ in ME1 and I finished my progression after the 2nd playthrough. I have absolutely no interest in playing anything but my fully levelled vanguard at the moment and I actually LOATHE having to re-level characters. If I or anyone else wanted to try new builds, guess what, nothing prevents them from doing so. There is nothing wrong in promoting NG+ because just the fact that there ARE different classes and different builds already promotes starting new characters if one so desires

Just the fact that there is NG+ already promotes continuing with the same character, if one so desires. It seems to me you're arguing for an early level cap so you can stop leveling as soon as possible.

To each his own. I think you're missing half the fun, but it's your game, and if that's the way you like to play, go ahead.

Anyway, just because there are six classes available doesn't mean players shouldn't be actively encouraged to try them out. Some people tend to be conservative and reluctant to move away from their comfort zone to try new things. For example, I originally had absolutely no interest to play engineer in ME2. Looking at the powers it just seemed boring. Now it's one of my favourites, and to think I almost never tried it in the first place...

your problem is not continuing the progression, your problem is the effectiveness of this continued progression

fear not

given the screens we have seen the level cap is probably only 30

[CajNatalie]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

NG+ in ME2 is great for playing around with new builds. You reset your points and select your bonus power in the previous playthru and import it. You don't spec anything and keep that 1st save while you're on the Cerebus lab. Feel like using cryo blast for the entire game and not for just 1/2 a game? Go for it. Ever feel you wish you had the Widow on Mordin's recruitment? There you go. Feel like dominating/AI hack YMIRs, Krogans and Collectors? You can.

NG+ isn't as hard as people claim it to be because you get to have AoE options on maxed powers, you have passive bonuses, and you have your weapon specialization from the start. Maxed drones and singularity will guarantee to lock down tough enemies from the start. ARush is fully maxed, and soldier don't benefit from research anyways. Infiltrator's sniper time dilation is maxed. Sentinels get their 30% cooldown and fully functional TA.

If you want to enjoy the game in general and not that interested in combat, then 1 playthrough should be good enough. NG+ is for people who like to powergame and find new strategies. Replayability shouldn't be enouraged by deliberately cutting off leveling in one playthrough. Max leveled characters should be available by the 3rd act instead of barely experiencing it until the last mission so that you get to enjoy your character, have enough time to try out different things, and master a few tricks that otherwise wouldn't be possible while you're busy leveling and keeping up with enemies.

Is this an argument for a level-cap in one run? Because if it is it's the first logical one I've seen so far.
Nice job.

[MonkeyLungs]

Arcian wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Ooooooooookay man. You keep thinking that.

I'll keep refraining from putting other gamers down for not sharing my opinion/tastes.

Are you seriously saying you'd rather replay the game for some worthless numbers instead of picking different choices or playing the other alignment to get different plot outcomes?

The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

[MonkeyLungs]

Aedolon wrote...

TokkanRAM wrote...

Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.

Commander Shep4rd wrote...

Also,why is it a problem to start a whole new playthrough with the same cahracter? higher level cap only encourages NG+ as well as changing decisons you were unhappy with and etc. ME is one of those games that really makes you wanna do over 6 playthroughs maybe 10 it¨s replay value is just that high.

These are the arguments that I just don't get.

Yes, the ME1 model does indeed encourage NG+, but it's entirely the wrong thing to encourage.

Instead of grinding the game all over again with the same character with minimal progression in gameplay, we should be encouraged to create different characters with different skills, to try different builds, to explore different tactics and gameplay mechanics, to find completely new ways to play the game.

ME1 design encourages and allows players do to BOTH what you are suggesting (start new toons) and what you are harping against (use same toon over). ME1 system is far more flexible and respectful to both playstyles.

[Ahglock]

Aedolon wrote...

TokkanRAM wrote...

Arcian doesn't seem to get that not hitting the level cap in one playthrough is not forcing you to play again, it's providing an incentive for playing again. You are by no means required to level up to max.

Commander Shep4rd wrote...

Also,why is it a problem to start a whole new playthrough with the same cahracter? higher level cap only encourages NG+ as well as changing decisons you were unhappy with and etc. ME is one of those games that really makes you wanna do over 6 playthroughs maybe 10 it¨s replay value is just that high.

These are the arguments that I just don't get.

Yes, the ME1 model does indeed encourage NG+, but it's entirely the wrong thing to encourage.

Instead of grinding the game all over again with the same character with minimal progression in gameplay, we should be encouraged to create different characters with different skills, to try different builds, to explore different tactics and gameplay mechanics, to find completely new ways to play the game.

If you do not want to encourage NG+, you shouldn't put it in the game.  Also you are not "grinding" the game all over again.  You are playing the game again.  If it becomes grinding to you, chances are you shold stop playing it.  I prefer a mutiple play through system, because I like to see progress in my character.  It adds an extra level of enjoyment to the game past the story and action.  

[MonkeyLungs]

Zanallen wrote...

I like playing again, but I like playing with a new Shepard who makes different choices. Replaying with the same Shepard just to hit the level cap seems boring to me.

And in ME1 you could do EITHER and it was fun both ways. I like to make new Sheps too but it's also fun to take your level 50 character into NewGame+ and have a powerful character with a ton of cool gear but still have some levels to gain.

Most of my ME1 characters are not max level. This never bugged me at all. I didn't really need the extra levels iin ME2 anyway, you hit the cap like halfway into the game (with DLC's).

ME1 system supported all these different types of gameplay very well. If you wanted to grid to 60 you could. If you didn't want to you didn't have to but at least both options were supported. By level 50 your character was pretty complete anyway ... those extra 10 levels were just there so that people who wanted to play NewGame+ could AND they could level up a little bit too.

Also ME1 had so much other cool ideas like how the achievements gave in game bonuses for all your characters.

ME1 is so much ****ing cooler than ME2 it sin't even a fair comparison ... and ME2 is a great game. ME1 is a legendary game made before The Fall ... /lament

[AlanC9]

MonkeyLungs wrote...
Also ME1 had so much other cool ideas like how the achievements gave in game bonuses for all your characters. 

I thought that was an awful idea. The game's easy without the bonuses, so it gets steadily worse the more you play it. Pity that idea stuck around for ME2.

[Clonedzero]

the level cap itself doesnt matter so much, but how its balanced and paced in the game itself is what matters. if it takes 3 playthroughs to get to max level then that'd be kinda dumb.

personally i wanna be able to cap out with a single completionist run. i remember raging pretty hard when i couldnt manage to hit 60 in two runs in ME1.

it should not feel like a grind.

[clerkenwell]

Lumikki wrote...

Please remove levels from game, they have no game world purpose and they aren't neccessary for games character progression design.

I agree completely, actually. I've been a longtime advocate of the level-less RPG.

[crimzontearz]

clerkenwell wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Please remove levels from game, they have no game world purpose and they aren't neccessary for games character progression design.

I agree completely, actually. I've been a longtime advocate of the level-less RPG.

WoD progress system FTW!!!!!!!!!!

[Lunatic LK47]

Clonedzero wrote...

the level cap itself doesnt matter so much, but how its balanced and paced in the game itself is what matters. if it takes 3 playthroughs to get to max level then that'd be kinda dumb.

personally i wanna be able to cap out with a single completionist run. i remember raging pretty hard when i couldnt manage to hit 60 in two runs in ME1.

it should not feel like a grind.

This. I was perfectly fine with maxing out on level 50 in ME1, and found that hitting level 60 was just outright boring, and hell, hitting the level 60 on that playthrough REQUIRED both Pinnacle Station and Bring Down the Sky, even with ALL OF THE UNCHARTED MISSIONS.

[Lunatic LK47]

AlanC9 wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...
Also ME1 had so much other cool ideas like how the achievements gave in game bonuses for all your characters. 

I thought that was an awful idea. The game's easy without the bonuses, so it gets steadily worse the more you play it. Pity that idea stuck around for ME2.

Meh, at least it threw us a bone for going for the extra mile in getting everything out of our game. I'm always a completionist first just so I could make my life easier.

[Lunatic LK47]

CajNatalie wrote...

I honestly don't understand how slapping on an extra 10 levels for the sake of 10 levels forces people to do anything... but then again, computer games use JEDI MIND TRICKS on people and people like Arcian must obey! 8D
Lol

Uh, for all of the big stack of bonuses being level 60 brings? Last time I checked, Importing a level 60 character allowed you to max one skill tree, while being level 50 only gave you 3/4ths of a skill tree.

[Bill the Illusive man]

I've been saying this for a while and it is an excellent request. Personally I like to max out my power levels to the max. I can't do that if there are caps on my skills, it takes away from the game. There should be enough levels/points to be able to max out all you and your squad mates' powers. This was the reason why I liked the glitch in ME2.

[In Exile]

I don't understand - what's so desirable about having a higher arbitrary number for the numerical progression?

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

I don't understand - what's so desirable about having a higher arbitrary number for the numerical progression?

Well, you know what they say about guys with "bigger feet". Probably the same reasoning there.

[CajNatalie]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

I honestly don't understand how slapping on an extra 10 levels for the sake of 10 levels forces people to do anything... but then again, computer games use JEDI MIND TRICKS on people and people like Arcian must obey! 8D
Lol

Uh, for all of the big stack of bonuses being level 60 brings? Last time I checked, Importing a level 60 character allowed you to max one skill tree, while being level 50 only gave you 3/4ths of a skill tree.

Big... stack of bonuses...?
Really?
Compared to a Level 50-59 character's bonuses, you get the following...
An extra 2 levels, which are redundant in a game where hitting max level can be done with your eyes closed... an extra 20'000 credits, when just one little upgrade (after discount) costs 50'000... and an extra 5000 of each resource, when, after Mission Complete's 50k bonuses and the 5000 you'd get from importing from Level 50-59 in total you need...
150'500 Palladium
170'500 Platinum (or 220'500 including the insanely priced Med-Bay Upgrade)
165'000 Iridium
...the reward is less than 1/30th of what you need. Is 1/30th a 'big bonus'?

Jedi Mind Tricks have deceived you.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 20 juin 2011 - 01:56 .

[RAF1940]

I don't care what the cap is as long as I don't reach it pretty much from just beating the game.

[shadowreflexion]

legion624 wrote...

I hope this hasn't been talked about yet. Topics get posted so fast on here that you are gone for a couple of days and there are 50 to 100 new topics. Anyways, I don't know what is going on with RPGs and Action/RPGs lately but the last few I have played (ME2, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas) has pretty low max levels. If you played all of the DLC for ME2 and did all of the missions, you are already maxed out on level 30 before you beat the game the first go around. One of the challenges from ME1 was trying to reach level 60, which I honestly still haven't done yet in 5 playthroughs. I just would like to not be leaving a ton of XP on the table in the 2nd playthrough. 

This is something I agree with 1000%. 30 just felt kind of "dirty" to me. Too easy to achieve and it felt premature. Reaching level 60 in ME1 was a daunting task accomplished with a 2nd playthrough for me. If enemies become damn near invincible then so be it. Squad leveling with me would be great as well especially if it unlocks better armors and weapons as many have stated. Level 30 was an insult simply because it was too attainable even on Insanity with no imported save files. Another level 60 would be nice but I think anything above that would be for show unless you're able to totally max out all skills. If that's the case then I say let us have it.

[Commander Shep4rd]

100 would be good since you are going to be 30 at the start of ME3 if you are going to import a lv30 character.