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question about Mass Effect Firearms


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#1
Skirata129

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In the codex description, it says that firearms shave off a miniscule chip or pellet of metal and then accelerate it using a mass effect field. Well, this is all well and good in the confines of the game world. However wouldn't this suffer from the same problem that 5.56 ammo does on a much bigger scale?

5.56 ammo is notorious for "zipping" through the target with no knockdown power whatsoever as the high velocity combined with FMJ means the bullet doesn't expand and leaves a relatively tiny hole. The Bad Guy might die of bloodloss, but he'll have plenty of time to get you beforehand unless you hit him in the head or an artery.

So how does a tiny pelet of ammo presumably even smaller than a .177 pellet or bb have the ability to kill without a perfectly placed headshot? even if soft metals were used, the metal wouldn't flatten or fragment enough to cause serious injury.

Modifié par Skirata129, 19 juin 2011 - 03:51 .


#2
dafatcat

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Just don't think about it too much

#3
Wintermist

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Yeah seriously, don't think about it too much. Higher calibre ammo may have better stoppping power in the real world but as for games, well...

I'm in the TA, we used to have 5.56 weapons but now we use 7.62 for the extra stopping power.

Reality vs games don't always go hand in hand.

#4
LetMeW1n

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The small pellet breaks... Shatters to even smaller bits upon contact with it's target. Just like the 5.56 round sometimes

#5
cactusberry

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How do people travel FTL without aging a lot slower than others that don't? How do omni-blades work if omni-tools are just plastic, ceramics, and light alloys? There's a lot of things in the ME Universe that don't make sense. There might be an explanation for this, but I don't know it.

#6
LetMeW1n

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THAT.. Should be in the codex somewhere, I remember. Maybe not, but I hope not.

EDIT: a bit more explanation. The many smaller pieces break from their original trajectory and travel though the target's body, effectively shredding the stuff around the volume of the area of contact.

Modifié par LetMeW1n, 19 juin 2011 - 04:14 .


#7
General Malor

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The force is transferred, the shaving is only a conduit. It's not the metal, it's the energy charge around it. It's added mass by way of momentum, then transference of momentum into the target that creates the "stopping power" we see in game.

And also... aren't omni-tools just hard-light constructs?

#8
Gavinthelocust

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The obvious answer is midichlorians.

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#9
Skirata129

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but a small hard round has a tendency not to transfer energy, it'll rip through what's in front of it and keep going. A soft metal, hollowpoint high caliber round "pancakes" on impact and tranfers the majority of it's force into the target.

#10
crazycanuck202

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I think if i recall the shavings aren't perfect with points like todays rounds. think of a metal shving you would normally see when it hits something it probably wouldn't push straight through but alter its trajectory on ipact causing tearing of the flesh.

#11
FluffyScarf

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It's why you need to fire so many rounds to down an opponent in both games. You're turning them into cheese.

#12
AntiChri5

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I remeber a codex entry mentioning this, and that the chips are designed so that they will flatten on impact.

#13
LetMeW1n

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You just explained it yourself. Add to that having projectile breaking into a million pieces upon contact to further increase its net surface area and you can transfer most of it's momentum to the target, along with creating shredded meat and bone

#14
devSin

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They already say that the material is designed to flatten on impact and transfer force (and they even note that not flattening would simply punch a hole through the target with little impact force).

You can argue that there's no material that will reliably do that (at least not at such a small size), but then you can also argue that there's no such thing as FTL.

#15
AntiChri5

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The primary codex entry on Mass Accelerators, under the weapons armour and equipment tab:

[quote]A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity.[/quote]

[url]http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Weapons,_Armor_and_Equipment[/quote]

#16
AntiChri5

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Hmmm. Messed up the link.

http://masseffect.wi...r_and_Equipment

#17
Skirata129

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but the "shaving off" part is what I don't get. to get the shape you would need for a small caliber round to transfer all its force to the target would take precise tooling, not just a chip of metal. a randomly shaped chunk of metal approaching near relatavistic velocities would also fly off in a random direction due to air resistance. good for space combat, but horrible for fighting planetside. you could easily fire a boomerang shaped projectile that comes back and hits your own troops.

#18
Praetor Knight

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Skirata129 wrote...

In the codex description, it says that firearms shave off a miniscule chip or pellet of metal and then accelerate it using a mass effect field. Well, this is all well and good in the confines of the game world. However wouldn't this suffer from the same problem that 5.56 ammo does on a much bigger scale?

5.56 ammo is notorious for "zipping" through the target with no knockdown power whatsoever as the high velocity combined with FMJ means the bullet doesn't expand and leaves a relatively tiny hole. The Bad Guy might die of bloodloss, but he'll have plenty of time to get you beforehand unless you hit him in the head or an artery.

So how does a tiny pelet of ammo presumably even smaller than a .177 pellet or bb have the ability to kill without a perfectly placed headshot? even if soft metals were used, the metal wouldn't flatten or fragment enough to cause serious injury.


I've been told that the 5.56x45mm NATO (or approx. .223 caliber) bullet tumbles in the air and can hit parallel to the skin for a more severe wound at certain ranges, but that's from how that projectile is tapered in the back... and that's more of a grim tangent so I'll stop :unsure:.



But for ME universe projectiles, I'd say consider hydrostatic shock as a means to have stopping power with ME universe weapons with smaller projectiles, since the mass effect fields in the weapons allow for extreme speed and acceleration in the projectiles with reduced friction.

#19
Wintermist

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It's all Science Fiction, you know ;)

#20
LetMeW1n

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Nice... All good science fiction are somewhat based on modern technological advancements and other scientific discoveries and theories, lol. Including the improbable super-construct element zero

#21
jamesp81

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Skirata129 wrote...

In the codex description, it says that firearms shave off a miniscule chip or pellet of metal and then accelerate it using a mass effect field. Well, this is all well and good in the confines of the game world. However wouldn't this suffer from the same problem that 5.56 ammo does on a much bigger scale?

5.56 ammo is notorious for "zipping" through the target with no knockdown power whatsoever as the high velocity combined with FMJ means the bullet doesn't expand and leaves a relatively tiny hole. The Bad Guy might die of bloodloss, but he'll have plenty of time to get you beforehand unless you hit him in the head or an artery.

So how does a tiny pelet of ammo presumably even smaller than a .177 pellet or bb have the ability to kill without a perfectly placed headshot? even if soft metals were used, the metal wouldn't flatten or fragment enough to cause serious injury.


Ahh, terminal ballistics, an interesting subject worthy of discussion.

I will start out by mention something about 223 Remington / 5.56 NATO.  Military issue ball ammunition will sometimes fragment due to the copper jacket being thinner at the cannelure (the indented portion of the projectile that the case mouth is crimped in to).  M193 55gr ball will usually fragment at 2700 fps or so, or higher.  Reliable fragmentation range is greater when the round is fired from the M16A4's 20 inch barrel as opposed to the 14.5" barrel used on the M4 carbine.  M193 is no longer standard issue, however.  Current standard issue is M855 62gr ball, which has poor fragmentation characteristics.  It more frequently "zips through" as you mentioned above.  Even a zip through hit, however, will be far more destructive than a handgun round would be.  And if a 5.56mm round fragments upon impact.....well, you don't want to be on the receiving end of that, trust me.

Now, with that said, even without expanding ammunition, ME firearms would be more destructive.  There is an effect that is sometimes called "remote wounding effects" associated with projectiles impacting a badguy at very high velocity.  Some people claim it's hydrostatic shock.  I don't exactly know what it is, I just know that a projectile moving fast enough can damage a badguy in places the bullet doesn't physically contact due to energy transfer associated with the impact itself.

With modern ammunition, this "remote wounding effects" threshold is somewhere around 1700 feet per second.  It can vary depending on the weight of the projectile.  For this reason, most handgun rounds will not cause remote wounding effects (for example, 9mm loaded with 124gr bullets tops out at around 1100 feet per second, and 45 Auto firing 230gr bullets tops out at around 850 feet per second).  Handgun rounds will simply cut a hole in the target.  This is why self defense experts stridently recommend the use of hollow points as defensive ammunition in handguns; a hollowpoint will expand and make a bigger hole in the target than it would otherwise.

Rifle rounds, which tend to move at much higher velocities, WILL cause these remote wounding effects.  I also think it's pretty safe to say that the projectiles used in Mass Effect move at velocities much higher than those of modern firearms.  There's a cutting edge area of study known as Hyper-velocity terminal ballistics, which studies the terminal effects of projectiles moving at multiple kilometers per second.  Current applications are in studying how to protect spacecraft from micrometeor impacts, but it's plausible that ME firearms would also fall into this velocity range.

Given that ME firearms likely fire projectiles at a very high rate of velocity, I think it's safe to say they produce significant remote wounding effects in the target, and certainly won't lack for terminal effectiveness.  It's also likely that a small, hyper-velocity projectile has a greater chance of defeating an enemy's armored suit if trends on body armor remain the same as they are today.

Modifié par jamesp81, 19 juin 2011 - 04:52 .


#22
jamesp81

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Skirata129 wrote...

but the "shaving off" part is what I don't get. to get the shape you would need for a small caliber round to transfer all its force to the target would take precise tooling, not just a chip of metal. a randomly shaped chunk of metal approaching near relatavistic velocities would also fly off in a random direction due to air resistance. good for space combat, but horrible for fighting planetside. you could easily fire a boomerang shaped projectile that comes back and hits your own troops.


I think that the mass effect core of the weapon shapes the projectile before it's fired.

#23
AntiChri5

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but the "shaving off" part is what I don't get. to get the shape you would need for a small caliber round to transfer all its force to the target would take precise tooling, not just a chip of metal. a randomly shaped chunk of metal approaching near relatavistic velocities would also fly off in a random direction due to air resistance. good for space combat, but horrible for fighting planetside. you could easily fire a boomerang shaped projectile that comes back and hits your own troops.

The rounds they shave off are customised for the wind, temperature, atmosphere and distance between the shooter and the target. So i would say that it is sophisticated enough to ensure the right shape to hit the target with maximum force.

#24
Inquisitor Recon

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AntiChri5 wrote...
The rounds they shave off are customised for the wind, temperature, atmosphere and distance between the shooter and the target. So i would say that it is sophisticated enough to ensure the right shape to hit the target with maximum force.


Doing that in milliseconds with a material as hard as steel or tungsten?

Yeah, it's best not to look too much into how the guns work.

#25
Skirata129

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agreed. the machinery needed to do something like that being contained in a pistol sized weapon and churning out projectiles in nanoseconds... how far into the future is this again? lol