25 réponses à ce sujet

[Nepenthe87]

...If you side with the mages at the part where orsino claims defeat and changes into a Harvester.

I think most of us can agree when I say that siding with the mages at the end feels disjointed, in that the gameplay and the story dont mesh together like they should.

Gameplay wise we are destroying every templar they can send after us, and even though you are easily dispatching these enemies suddenly Orsino decides blood magic is the only thing that can save the mages. He goes harvester and you immediately have to fight him.

What I propose is that battle with the templars before fighting the Orsino harvester should be an un-beatable fight. Through the gameplay it should be portrayed how bleak a chance it is that you can win. In that battle the templar's should be extremely hard and increasingly hard to beat, so eventually even if you kill 100 waves of templars they are still coming and ready to murder you. That battle with the templars at the end should be a completely no-win situation. It should be an insta-loss on hardcore and an infinite wave of templars on easy.

It's only then, when seeing that the almighty Hawke can't fend off the templars forever, does Orsino go for his last ditch effort to save the remaining mages. You then see Harverster Orisno decimate the rest of the templars in the building and all that is left is Hawke and his crew and a frenzying Harvetser ripping through everything in it's path. Hawke and co. are then forced to stop the abomination before it kills everyone, mages and non-mages alike.

I feel that if Hawke lost this battle it would make this entire part of having to fight Orsino completely plausible and justified. Changing this one battle to a no-win scenario would convey the desperation that Orsino feels at the end of the game. through the gameplay we would understand how small the chances were of success for the mages, and also why Orsino would feel the only chance any mage in kirkwall has left is through blood magic.

TL;DR: the battle with the templars before fighting orsino on the mage side should always be a losing battle. that way the gameplay matches with Orsino's actions when he feels there isnt any hope left for the mages. you as the player know how hard it is for the mages to win the war battle because you cannot win this battle against the templars.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 19 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[dragonflight288]

...you know, I happen to love that idea. We are facing an army of templars after all. Why not make it feel like we are fighting an army. Individual stronger than all of them, completely unable to defeat them on our own.

[TEWR]

The least they could've done was have everyone act like the battle was tough afterwards. Instead Hawke just looked arrogant like he was something special and could wipe the floor with these guys easily.


Which he could've been something special, but that's not the point.



I mean, Varric could've said "Maker's breath Hawke, you really enjoy 35:1 odds don't you?"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[FieryDove]

Orsino should have come with us to face Meridith then did his blob act. It didn't make sense to me playing the mage side.

I like the idea you have in general except I think the people that made it that far are already tired of *waves*. I could be wrong of course.

[Nepenthe87]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The least they could've done was have everyone act like the battle was tough afterwards. Instead Hawke just looked arrogant like he was something special and could wipe the floor with these guys easily.


Which he could've been something special, but that's not the point.



I mean, Varric could've said "Maker's breath Hawke, you really enjoy 35:1 odds don't you?"

Still, I don't think an off-hand comment is enough to justify Orsino turning into an uber-abomination.

I think the player needs to feel that desperation the mages have. And i think the best way to make the player feel desperation is through a really hard and desperate battle.

@fierydove:

I was thinking that this would be the one instance where waves would be completely justified and plausible in a battle mechanics sense. endless waves giving that sense of not being able to turn the tides.

Modifié par Nepenthe87, 19 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[TEWR]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The least they could've done was have everyone act like the battle was tough afterwards. Instead Hawke just looked arrogant like he was something special and could wipe the floor with these guys easily.


Which he could've been something special, but that's not the point.



I mean, Varric could've said "Maker's breath Hawke, you really enjoy 35:1 odds don't you?"

Still, I don't think an off-hand comment is enough to justify Orsino turning into an uber-abomination.

I think the player needs to feel that desperation the mages have. And i think the best way to make the plater feel desperation is through a really hard and desperate battle.

Oh I'm not saying it would be enough. Just that it would be the very least they could've done. Or they could've shown more of an actual RoA going on instead of what we saw.

But let me try and dig up my post that I made a long while back about how Orsino's transformation could've been done better.

[dragonflight288]

Maybe fight off one wave of templars, look out the window to see ships full of templars unload, mages being slaughtered left and right (including children), another wave bursts in, defeat them, and see yet more templars disembark from he ships as you see literally an army come in, even as the mages fight gallantly, but hopelessly. More cinematic hopelessness.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I wrote...


Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:






Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)


If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.


If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.


Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.Idk that's just how I think it could've been better. Meredith and the lyrium idol I had no problem with.

Note that I don't see this as amazing, but it would've been better than what we were given. Also, Orsino would live in number 3 to be able to tell the other Circles.

That's from a while back.


I think the battle should be winnable, but you'd have to fight wave after wave after wave in increasing difficulty, and carefully plan out everything. Add into that my ideas and dragonflight's ideas (as well as seeing some Templars who didn't support Meredith's actions but also didn't speak out helping mages escape) and it would've been amazing.


*makes a mental note of this thread for his Hawke fanfic.*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2011 - 05:01 .

[FieryDove]

I think it all boiled down to time/resources problem with the same thing happening no matter what side you were on. We will never know.

I do like the ideas above. I think that would have helped greatly with many people's opinion on the game. Act 3/ending was not good in my opinion (and I like the game).

Bad end game content and bad endings can ruin an entire game for some people. (Kotor2 - Not Bioware, yes I know.)

[HSHAW]

Alternate idea: Make Mages pull the idiot ball out of their asses and start setting the Templars' boats on fire and start taking advantage of the Templars being funneled into one spot, making it an even fight making Hawke's choice of side the deciding factor in the battle.

[sphinxess]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Maybe fight off one wave of templars, look out the window to see ships full of templars unload, mages being slaughtered left and right (including children), another wave bursts in, defeat them, and see yet more templars disembark from he ships as you see literally an army come in, even as the mages fight gallantly, but hopelessly. More cinematic hopelessness.

Actually that we be pretty funny - Orsano as the hero for the mages as he is forced to use forbidden knowledge to stop a Annulment in its tracks. Hawke once again a person that just happened to be at a historical event.

[TEWR]

HSHAW wrote...

Alternate idea: Make Mages pull the idiot ball out of their asses and start setting the Templars' boats on fire and start taking advantage of the Templars being funneled into one spot, making it an even fight making Hawke's choice of side the deciding factor in the battle.

I ask myself the question of why they didn't do that almost every day.

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Alternate idea: Make Mages pull the idiot ball out of their asses and start setting the Templars' boats on fire and start taking advantage of the Templars being funneled into one spot, making it an even fight making Hawke's choice of side the deciding factor in the battle.

Seriously. My cat could plan battles better than they do. It's outright painful to watch.

This so much. My Hawke was just kind of in the back facepalming. "They...let the templars charge through a funnel? Seriously?" 

[The Baconer]

HSHAW wrote...

Alternate idea: Make Mages pull the idiot ball out of their asses and start setting the Templars' boats on fire and start taking advantage of the Templars being funneled into one spot, making it an even fight making Hawke's choice of side the deciding factor in the battle.

Straight up. Did you notice that giant set of stairs outside, also? Could you imagine the Templars trying to make it up if the mages had covered it in ice?

[MinotaurWarrior]

Honestly, I would prefer it if the Harvester literally came out of nowhere, and Orsino just vanished inexplicably. This is one of the worst scenes I've ever experienced in a game. Just about anything would be better than what we have.

[TEWR]

The Baconer wrote...

HSHAW wrote...

Alternate idea: Make Mages pull the idiot ball out of their asses and start setting the Templars' boats on fire and start taking advantage of the Templars being funneled into one spot, making it an even fight making Hawke's choice of side the deciding factor in the battle.

Straight up. Did you notice that giant set of stairs outside, also? Could you imagine the Templars trying to make it up if the mages had covered it in ice?

That would've been awesome.



But then we'd see more Meredith jumps. She'd grab a dozen and jump up the steps with them, then head back ddown for another dozen and repeat the process.

[HSHAW]

One more thing, why didn't Mages try to get around Templar magic resistance by flinging large non-magical objects (such as bits of the stone the gallows is made of) at high speed at the Templars with force magic (stated to be popular in Kirkwall)?

Modifié par HSHAW, 19 juin 2011 - 07:34 .

[Crow_22]

Well, it's obvious the level of intelligence the mages had were.... well, lets just say it. They were dumb as a sack of squash. And Orsino? Dumbest..... Guy.... Ever...... His look was cool though, I have to admit xD.

[dragonflight288]

All those strategies would work. I disagree with burning the ships though. The mages need some way to escape after all.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Nepenthe87 wrote...

TL;DR: the battle with the templars before fighting orsino on the mage side should always be a losing battle. that way the gameplay matches with Orsino's actions when he feels there isnt any hope left for the mages. you as the player know how hard it is for the mages to win the war battle because you cannot win this battle against the templars.

(I did read, but left that bit to quote.)

I agree that how it is just feels disjointed with Orsino changing even if the Templar Hall was successfully defended.

A losing battle is an interesting idea. Rather than just defend the Templar Hall where Orsino makes his last stand, I really thought Hawke and the party should have been defending the gates of the Circle Tower. As it currently is, Meredith just breaks in and her horde starts slaying all in their path in a cinematic. Where's the defense? o_O Why weren't all the mages ordered back into a safer location? Or rallied? It looks like they were taken by complete surprise.

But anyway, losing fight. I like the idea, but the problem with a losing fight is that gamers don't like it if they're forced to lose (always winning, on the other hand, is perfectly ok). Maybe your success in the Circle Tower should have depended on how many mages you helped during the game, and who ended up in the Gallows. They could have held key defenses rather than just ending up standing in the Templar Hall as token 'Ohai, you saved me and now we're going to die!' NPCs who do nothing. Alain, Ella, Emile de Launcet, Idunna. Hell, even Feynriel could teleport back to help for a bit.

Orsino's change needed more reason than what we got.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

This so much. My Hawke was just kind of in the back facepalming. "They...let the templars charge through a funnel? Seriously?" 

It's only fair after the templars let Hawke in and join up with the mages, rather than either arrest him/her or throw out of the island on the spot. Or sink the incoming boat, like already mentioned.

(not to mention your Hawke is so busy facepalming he/she also lets these templars charge through the funnel

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 juin 2011 - 09:33 .

[jonesd]

Yeah, I think they should have done it just like the opening just before Flemeth saves you.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

All those strategies would work. I disagree with burning the ships though. The mages need some way to escape after all.

Well, the whole thing started in Lowtown, and Orsino did say "Go! Get to the Gallows as fast as you can!" so they must've taken some ships.


Plus there is the way out of the Gallows that Anders was using when he was part of the Mage Resistance.