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[Destroy Raiden_]

1136342t54 wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

See the problem is now that people think she's a spector but then Anderson callers her Lieutenant so now the issue is are they or aren't they? 

Shepard is a spectre but is constantly called Commander.

Maybe but sense it's only a brief of the whole situations we don't have time or accurate evidence on if she is or isn't there. Sure perhapse thats meant to be bombshell later he says LT and we go oh they got a promotion but then we talk to them and they go not only that I'm a spector! Or it means one of two other possibilities BW reconsidered making them a spector sense alot of people don't like it, or it was simply a place holder addressing.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If Ash's racist, What about Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Mordin?
These characters never get flak for their racist comments.

Just because Ash is a realist, doesn't love aliens and isn't perfect like you doesn't make her racist

It's the way our American society works. Only the white man can be a racist. While anyone who isn't white can say whatever racist comments they want and not get in trouble. Same thing applies here. The aliens can say whatever they want about humans but not get flak for it, while one human (ashley) says something and suddenly she's the devil in people's eyes.

It's a splendid hypocrisy.

^ not only that mdoggy but she's also white so it's doubble for her! Seriously though the most racist show I've seen is an anime called the boondocks I mean damn....I know people think like that but...damn and the thing still runs I don't know half the time if I should laugh, cry, or be offended for all the people it's offending its a horrible show desgeised as comedy!

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 20 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[MrFob]

Hm, the VS being spectre is a bit of an issue IMO since as far as we know, most o their success happened when they were with Shep (and due to Sheps actions at that). That said, we don't really know much of what happened after the beginning of ME2. Maybe they proved themselves.

As for Ash being xenophobic: I don't think she is. She mistrusts aliens she doesn't know but in the end, she seems to work well the alien crew members on the Normandy. Besides, if Saren is any indication, xenophobic is a prerequisite to become a spectre.

Furthermore, if Shep killed the council in ME1, it stands to reason the new councl would try to recruit as many humans as possible. Even if the old council survived, I guess they had to step up on human spectre recruitment after the humans joined. Ash/Kaiden were with the first human spectre for quite some time and had a chance to learn from Shep. That must count for something.

It will be interesting to hear in ME3 if they did something special in the meantime that earned them the position for good though.

[Morroian]

JayhartRIC wrote...

Plus Shepard really wasn't all that badass when he received Spectre status.  It is possible that the only thing Shepard did of note up til that point is survive a thresher maw attack.  

The background we're given isn't enough to determine that. Its quite easy to build up what we're given into something thats deserving of spectre status. 

[Pax of Doom]

MrFob wrote...

Hm, the VS being spectre is a bit of an issue IMO since as far as we know, most o their success happened when they were with Shep (and due to Sheps actions at that). That said, we don't really know much of what happened after the beginning of ME2. Maybe they proved themselves.

They proved themselves before Shepard, and had successes before Shepard.

Ashley received high marks and praise for her abilities.  Her being blacklisted stopped further advancement.  She even says that being a Williams means you have to work harder than others. 

Kaidan received commendations and medals according to Chakwas.  He's a powerful L2 biotic whose actions indirectly led to closing the BAaT program.

Aside from the short bit about Horizon, we know nothing of the VS' actions in the 2 years Shepard was dead, nor do we know their actions during the events of ME2.  All we know is that the VS received a promotion, and their file was heavily classified.  For all we know, Horizon may have been their test for admission into the Spectres.  It wasn't a complete success nor a complete failure - the VS had to convince the colony to install the laser, which shows some diplomatic abilities.  And Horizon may not have been a target had TIM not lured the Collectors there.

[Oblivious]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If Ash's racist, What about Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Mordin?
These characters never get flak for their racist comments.

Just because Ash is a realist, doesn't love aliens and isn't perfect like you doesn't make her racist

It's the way our American society works. Only the white man can be a racist. While anyone who isn't white can say whatever racist comments they want and not get in trouble. Same thing applies here. The aliens can say whatever they want about humans but not get flak for it, while one human (ashley) says something and suddenly she's the devil in people's eyes.

It's a splendid hypocrisy.

^ not only that mdoggy but she's also white so it's doubble for her! Seriously though the most racist show I've seen is an anime called the boondocks I mean damn....I know people think like that but...damn and the thing still runs I don't know half the time if I should laugh, cry, or be offended for all the people it's offending its a horrible show desgeised as comedy!

A few things to clear up here. Ash isn't white, she's mixed, which is evident according to lore and her facial features. And the Boondocks is a satire, alternating between Horatian and Juvelian, and like the early Simpsons episodes and South Park its humor lies not in whats shown but rather is more subtle political agendas. It's a political cartoon, like the Simpsons and South Park, that gets bad rep by people too... "slow" to understand its meanings.

But we're getting off topic here. Please continue :happy:

[Mykel54]

Plus, one detail people seems to miss out, when the Virmire survivor leaves Horizon he/she says this "I´ll report to the Council and they´ll decide if they believe your story". Therefore it can be surmised that ashley/kaidan were already spectre candidates or at least working indirectly for the council, otherwise they should have reported to the alliance.

PS. Now Ash isn´t white? Good lord, what is the new white these days then: blond and blue eyes? is Miranda white them? And Ashley qualifies to me as white, even if she does not have a north european skin tone but more of a south european.

Modifié par Mykel54, 20 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[CroGamer002]

jbblue05 wrote...

If Ash's racist, What about Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Mordin?
These characters never get flak for their racist comments.

Just because Ash is a realist, doesn't love aliens and isn't perfect like you doesn't make her racist

BUT ALIENS ARE KEWL!!!!11!!

[Lumikki]

I did not consider Ashley rasist.

Just because she had very little experience with aliens and was carefull with dealing them or put human interest first, doesn't really make her rasist. How ever her decission making wasn't that good, she was hasty in conclusions. Meaning she did not really think through well different possibilities.

Example:

When Asley met Rachni queen, she recomment Shepard to kill her because she can become an issue in future, based past action what Rachni's race has done in past. As here we are refering the war where krogans was used agaist them. Problem here is that Asley did not think. She judged Rachni queen based what Rachni ancestors has done and then thinked that killing her was most safe solution to everyone. This is hastly conclusion.

Mostly because there is few other things to consider. What crime has this induvidual Rachni queen actually done? None at all, she has not attacked anyone and she has not make any threats, totally opposite, been very polite and civil. She is last of her kind in the race. Meaning killing her would be same as exterminating hole race from existent. Then you also should think what kind of people are we if you kill her, how is our action any different than example reapers. Did Asley just put her and others survival over some race what feeled like thread. Now different between rachni and reapers was reapers are attacking, rachni queen isn't. That would also mean that we could have to kill Krogans from existent too. Where does it end. If someone takes that kind of point they start look a lot like reapers. Meaning reapers action becomes justified and they reasons to exterminate all threats in galaxy to protect they own survival would become valid. This means we are back to main point, you don't judge someone based what they could do, but what they have done or are doing. Rachni queen had done no crime at all. This is what I mean when Asley makes hasty conclusions, as not thinking enough about situation.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 juin 2011 - 09:33 .

[MegaBadExample]

Lumikki wrote...

I did not consider Ashley rasist.

Just because she had very little experience with aliens and was carefull with dealing them or put human interest first, doesn't really make her rasist. How ever her decission making wasn't that good, she was hasty in conclusions. Meaning she did not really think through well different possibilities.

Example:

When Asley met Rachni queen, she recomment Shepard to kill her because she can become an issue in future, based past action what Rachni's race has done in past. As here we are refering the war where krogans was used agaist them. Problem here is that Asley did not think. She judged Rachni queen based what Rachni ancestors has done and then thinked that killing her was most safe solution to everyone. This is hastly conclusion.

Mostly because there is few other things to consider. What crime has this induvidual Rachni queen actually done? None at all, she has not attacked anyone and she has not make any threats, totally opposite, been very polite and civil. She is last of her kind in the race. Meaning killing her would be same as exterminating hole race from existent. Then you also should think what kind of people are we if you kill her, how is our action any different than example reapers. Did Asley just put her and others survival over some race what feeled like thread. Now different between rachni and reapers was reapers are attacking, rachni queen isn't. That would also mean that we could have to kill Krogans from existent too. Where does it end. If someone takes that kind of point they start look a lot like reapers. Meaning reapers action becomes justified and they reasons to exterminate all thread in galaxy to protect they own survival would become valid. This means we are back to main point, you don't judge someone based what they could do, but what they have done or are doing. Rachni queen had done no crime at all. This is what I mean when Asley makes hasty conclusions, as not thinking enough about situation.

Well... I took Wrex and Ashley on that mission. Wrex wanted to kill the last rachni off with a acid-rigged-tank and Ashley suggested against it. Yes, she wanted to save the Rachni. It really depends on who you have in the party.

[Yakko77]

Ash, at worst, has a trust issue with aliens initially in ME1 and you can steer her towards a more open minded view over the course of the game. Some of her conversations with the alien squad mates in the elevator load scenes show this.

Seriously, do people play this game on mute or what that they think she's xenophobic.

Modifié par Yakko77, 20 juin 2011 - 09:16 .

[Lumikki]

MegaBadExample wrote...

Well... I took Wrex and Ashley on that mission. Wrex wanted to kill the last rachni off with a acid-rigged-tank and Ashley suggested against it. Yes, she wanted to save the Rachni. It really depends on who you have in the party.

That is true, it's based who is with you in mission. That's how ever is Biowares problem, not thinking how they character behave as what kind of image they give for player..What can cause they characters to have totally different personalities, just sake of missions done sertain ways, so that player is forced to choose between two different opinions. What is very sad that Bioware don't allow squad members speaks the way what fits in they personality.

I had Liara defending and Ashley agaist.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[evmiller]

Mykel54 wrote...

Plus, one detail people seems to miss out, when the Virmire survivor leaves Horizon he/she says this "I´ll report to the Council and they´ll decide if they believe your story". Therefore it can be surmised that ashley/kaidan were already spectre candidates or at least working indirectly for the council, otherwise they should have reported to the alliance.

PS. Now Ash isn´t white? Good lord, what is the new white these days then: blond and blue eyes? is Miranda white them? And Ashley qualifies to me as white, even if she does not have a north european skin tone but more of a south european.

It's mentioned in the first novel that most humans are of mixed blood and that Kaylee Sanders blonde hair and light complection was incredalbly rare and people would often stare at her bcasue most people have brown hair and and a darker skin tone.

[Eleinehmm]

Yakko77 wrote...

Ash, at worst, has a trust issue with aliens initially in ME1 and you can steer her towards a more open minded view over the course of the game. Some of her conversations with the alien squad mates in the elevator load scenes show this.

Seriously, do people play this game on mute or what that they think she's xenophobic.

It's called different people - different conclusions. Reading the both sides, the pro Ash one is much more aggressive in their defence of the character. I don't think that people like being called trolls for not agreeing with your point of view.

P.S For the record, I saved Ash on V. mission, and think she is a great character. She is a great character precisely because she has real flaws, not "acceptable" flaws. Her mild version of "judge by the race" is among them.

[Eleinehmm]

Lumikki wrote...

MegaBadExample wrote...

Well... I took Wrex and Ashley on that mission. Wrex wanted to kill the last rachni off with a acid-rigged-tank and Ashley suggested against it. Yes, she wanted to save the Rachni. It really depends on who you have in the party.

That is true, it's based who is with you in mission. That's how ever is Biowares problem, not thinking how they character behave as what kind of image they give for player..What can cause they characters to have totally different personalities, just sake of missions done sertain ways, so that player is forced to choose between two different opinions. What is very sad that Bioware don't allow squad members speaks the way what fits in they personality.

I had Liara defending and Ashley agaist.

Yes, I think there is a video on youtube about saving the consul. It's kind of funny to see the same people speaking for both sides.

[Eire Icon]

Ok this whole Ash is a racist/xenophobe thing is ridiculous. Looking at her comments they are completely understandable given the circumstances

There is a difference between distrust and hate of a person based on there race

* She raised concerns to Shepard about allowing alien races access to systems on the Normandy. This is a valid concern and I would have been annoyed if nobody had mentioned it as it would be completely unrealistic.

* She readily admits she is not used to aliens, and it is a natural reaction to be wary of what we don't know

* Ash's comments in relation to Liara were specific to her. She is a potential rival for Shepard and a polar opposite of Ash. She also asks Shepard to go check on Liara after the Benezia incident. Hardly the actions of a racist

* On the Cerberus issue, one of the major reasons for Ash's distrust of Cerberus is the fact that it is populated by extremists and racists.

Just because Ash questioned the motives of the alien races does not mean she hates them.

It seems to me that she's just an easy target on these forums. If your looking for a racist, go talk to Grunt. He'll regularly laugh about torturing Torians or Salarian's, and even directly said "I hate Turians" - now thats racist.

Nobody really cares about that though do they !

[Ahriman]

So this "Ashley is a racist" trick still works?
Oh my...

[Eleinehmm]

Eire Icon wrote...


It seems to me that she's just an easy target on these forums. If your looking for a racist, go talk to Grunt. He'll regularly laugh about torturing Torians or Salarian's, and even directly said "I hate Turians" - now thats racist.

Nobody really cares about that though do they !

Umm, your point ? Yes, he is. Tank education is not know for it's tolerance

[DalekBob]

It seems to me that she's just an easy target on these forums. If your looking for a racist, go talk to Grunt. He'll regularly laugh about torturing Torians or Salarian's, and even directly said "I hate Turians" - now thats racist.

Nobody really cares about that though do they !

Exactly! I would say Ash is a bit of a racist but frankly she's no worse than most of the squad. Just to look at the way Garrus slurs Tali in the elevators in the first game, that's something that's a hell of a lot more likely to cause
trouble than the way Ashley behaves. In any case, a pure renegade Shepard is a Hell of a lot worse than she is when it comes to racism ('Depends on the species, Turian.') Hell, Kaidan is pretty much the only squadmates in the series to have a particularly wholesome outlook when it comes to race. Even Liara is a little iffy. While I'm probably being overly harsh her 'You humans are creatures of action' routine left a bad taste in my mouth. As Wrex would probably put it, 'Right. Because the rest of the galaxy has a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but humans all think and act exactly alike.' Given that Kaidan suffered so much because of his training but didn't let it it taint his view of aliens, if anything it proves he's great for the job.


As for being overly emotional, I'd hardly say that's an issue given that it's possible to play Shepard as a borderline psychotic man child. As far as I know neither Ash or Kaidan have punched any reporters, hung up in the middle of an important conversation with their superiors for a laugh or gotten as downright petulant and pissy as Shepard can be when you refuse to let Liara mind meld, even though it could be vital to the success of the mission. Ash is hot blooded, no doubt about it but compared to how Shepard can potentially be played she's a model of
professionalism.

Modifié par DalekBob, 20 juin 2011 - 11:45 .

[Eire Icon]

Eleinehmm wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


It seems to me that she's just an easy target on these forums. If your looking for a racist, go talk to Grunt. He'll regularly laugh about torturing Torians or Salarian's, and even directly said "I hate Turians" - now thats racist.

Nobody really cares about that though do they !

Umm, your point ? Yes, he is. Tank education is not know for it's tolerance

My point, is that allot of people on these forums seem to believe Ash is the devil incarnate for simply voicing concerns over the possible intentions of the other species and ship/Alliance security. They were valid concerns, not a racist spouting hate propaganda

Going back to the original point in the thread, discounting the VS as Spectre material I believe is wrong. They have easily proved their abilities during their time spent with Shepard and are easily of higher moral fibre then any of their other crew mates (excluding Shepard)

[Heimdall]

Maybe a little xenophobic, but Ashley is no racist. If you want a racist, look at Saren. You know, that sadistic human-hating sociopath that the council let into the Spectres?

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Morroian wrote...

JayhartRIC wrote...

Plus Shepard really wasn't all that badass when he received Spectre status.  It is possible that the only thing Shepard did of note up til that point is survive a thresher maw attack.  

The background we're given isn't enough to determine that. Its quite easy to build up what we're given into something thats deserving of spectre status. 

One of my Shepards survived the Skyllian Blitz, so that wasn't too shabby.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Maybe a little xenophobic, but Ashley is no racist. If you want a racist, look at Saren. You know, that sadistic human-hating sociopath that the council let into the Spectres?

This is a good point. The council must value skill over political correctness in terms of picking Spectres. I would question them picking an ex-member of Shepard's team which believes in "the Reapers" however. I would think that the Council, who was so untrusting of Shepard, would not hire another human into their elite force of agents who was involved in that same case and believes strongly in something the Council has such doubts over. It must of been an odd Spectre candidacy meeting.

Turian Councillor: "Oh, I sure hated Shepard. Good thing he is on suspension for work with Cerberus. I was tired of hearing about 'Reaper this..Reaper that. Blah, blah, blah...'"

Asari Councillor: "He wasn't that bad, I kind of miss him. But we should promote another human, they do make up most of C-Sec these days."

Salarian Concillor: "There aren't many candidates that qualify. This is a prestigous political appointment as well as a trusted military one. Each Spectre must represent the best of the species."

Asari Councillor: "Hmm...*taps her finger on desk for several minutes as she reads over files* Well there is Ashley Williams. Her profile says she's xenophobic, she comes from a dishonored military family, is strong-headed and she was part of Shepard's team. She also believes adamantly in 'the Reapers.'"

Salarian Councillor: "That sounds like a splendid idea!"

Turian Councillor: "Grrrrrahhhhh!" *he starts to convulse and his head explodes*

[Eleinehmm]

Eire Icon wrote...

Eleinehmm wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...


It seems to me that she's just an easy target on these forums. If your looking for a racist, go talk to Grunt. He'll regularly laugh about torturing Torians or Salarian's, and even directly said "I hate Turians" - now thats racist.

Nobody really cares about that though do they !

Umm, your point ? Yes, he is. Tank education is not know for it's tolerance

My point, is that allot of people on these forums seem to believe Ash is the devil incarnate for simply voicing concerns over the possible intentions of the other species and ship/Alliance security. They were valid concerns, not a racist spouting hate propaganda

Going back to the original point in the thread, discounting the VS as Spectre material I believe is wrong. They have easily proved their abilities during their time spent with Shepard and are easily of higher moral fibre then any of their other crew mates (excluding Shepard)

Fair enough. I do not post much, so I was not aware of this "evil Ash" issue

Yes, My respect towards Alenko comes from his "like us" conclusion. And yes I wanted to “really, doctor T'soni" Liara.
I don't think that Ashs' attitude is something unique among Sheps Squadmates. But it's still mildly xenophobic, just as Garrus elevator comments.

I think the problem is in the definition differences.  Xenophobic does not mean  Ku Klux Klan level of racism and most of people would be offended  by this comparison ( that is why Ash is very Anti Terra Firma and  hates Cerberus)
Hell, even being patriotic and suspecting other nationals just because of the citizenship counts as xenophobic for some. (Yes, I am a god darn godless globalist commie socialist ,  so sue me :lol: )

Modifié par Eleinehmm, 20 juin 2011 - 12:29 .

[Envor44]

I think Ashley have some issue with trust, but considered Normany the most advance ship in Alliance and everything is supposed to be classified to a new comers, it's very logical, and beside she hate Cerberus and Terra firm, both organization known for being xenophobe, she hate Cerberus and think Terra firm is hypocrite.

Yeah, I kinda agree with OP about other things except both manipulated on Horizon by the Collectors. Story-wise maybe Alliance put them forward for a Spectre position(humanity and the council relations?), and VS working with Shepard before on his mission againse Saren and the Geth they suitable regardless of their talents.