288 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKingOf-Kings]

OP thinks Zaeed should be a Spectre, over the VS, and you people are still responding to him?

[nitrog100]

You can't really compare any NPC to Shepard. He took down Saren, who was widely regarded as the best SPECTRE. Ashley/Kaiden are both extremely capable officers that hav probably honed their skills even further in the years following ME1. They would do fine. Ashley just doesn't automatically trust aliens. She's not a xenophobe. As for Kaiden, he seems kind of whiny at times, but he's still a good leader and a powerful Biotic.

[Dangerfoot]

I really don't see how they're going to make the "confrontation" love triangle thing seem even remotely reasonable considering the way VS acts toward you on Horizon. That scene makes it pretty clear that Shepard is single now.

[LuPoM]

One thing I'm trying to unbderstand from this topic: the meaning of VS, and as far as I've got it's concerned to Ashley and Kaidan.. couldn't you atleast write it once in full in the main topic for the "non updated with the acronyms" like me?

[CroGamer002]

Funkcase wrote...

I hate needing to write this crap over and over again.

I find it funny that people label Ash as a racist/xenophobe when her writer even said ''SHE IS NOT A XENOPHOBE'' She hates Cerberus because they are xenophobic! She hates Terra firm for the same reason ''Too bad so many of your members are just racists'' -Ash.

The only aliens Ash doesn't trust is Garrus and Wrex, and that's just at the start of the game, why? Wrex is a Krogan battlemaster, and Garrus is a Turian (tensions are still high) on the most sophisticated human war ship in the galaxy. Later in the game she isn't bothered about them, becuase she get's to know them. And she only kills Wrex (if you dont charm Wrex) becuase Shepard said ''be ready'' meaning ''get ready to kill him'' She was only protecting her commanding officer, someone had too.

She doesn't hate Liara (the tension between them was just for Shepards affection, it's Kaidan if you play femShep) Ash is the one who tells Shepard to check on her, that she must be hurting after losing her mum (why would a Xenophobe care about a aliens feelings?) And she doesn't ever say a bad thing about Tali, in a elevator she tells Tali that ''Hopefully having you help stop Saren will stop humans for blaiming the Quarians for the Geth''

The dog and the bear analogy, most people get it wrong, but humanity was the dog, the council were sicking humanity on the bear (the Reapers)

'I cant tell the aliens from the animals'' Do you disagree that hanar look like Jellyfish? That the keepers ook like some sort of insects? Some people even think Grunt looks like a duck! How was that xenophobic.

She wants to live on the wards, why on Earth would a xenophobic love and want to live in such a multi-cultural place?

She is intelligent, she always marks out good tactical positions ''I bet them stair cases aren't just for show, they make for good tactical positions if this place is ever attacked''

Her opinion on things is usually right. The council ARE sicking humanity on the bear, Cerberus ARE working with the Reapers. Her view on the galaxy while cynical yes, seems to be the correct view.

She can lead, or did you not read her profile? From the ME1 website:

''Chief Williams' platoon has logged unanimous positive feedback on her leadership in the recent fitness review cycle. Private Nirali Bahtia praised her focus on team-building exercises and "tough but fair" discipline''

She handles the Geth really well in ME1, her team was ambushed, and she survives (who knows how long she was out there fighting them alone) what was she supposed to do? Garrus's team had the same fate in ME2, and so did both of the teams Tali lead.

Yeah she is emotional, but she doesn't let it get in the way of her duty, when Shepard says ''No williams'' she listens. And Horizon was just a sloppy written scene, Shepards lame excuses were'nt helping.

How is she a Ripley wannabe? Becuase she's a women who can kick a guys ass? Are you sexist by any chance?

And Kaidan is the most level headed character I have seen in ME.

Couldn'y handle there jobs? What? They are both willing to die to stop Saren! I didn't see anyone else step up, willing to give there life for the mission, just Ashley and Kaidan. And the omb was armed and went off, and the other took down as many Geth as they could, keeping them back. They both did there jobs, and one of them dies a hero.

Well said.

[Thiev]

None of you takes politics into consideration. 
 
Shepard was the first human Spectre. A troublesome one, from the POV of both the Council and the Alliance (sure you have Anderson and Hackett on your side, but the brass is less than thrilled). 
Regardless of decision during the Battle of Citadel, humanity became Council race - they would certainly want and deserve their own Spectre, it is seen as a matter of status (as pointed out repeatedly in ME1). 
Shepard at this point is unknown variable at best, so they need someone else - who's better than another member of 'heroic' team, decorated war hero, completely loyal to Alliance (to the fault even) and much less independent in taking initiative? VS fits perfectly.

[azerSheppard]

Ash was not a racist, I do agree that at first she was xenophobic, but later in the game she really opened up. Also Pressley was xenophobic at first, but in the normandy crash site he made me cryu

[Thiev]

Calinstel wrote... 
 
To accept this reason, why wait until Shepard is back and after it's shown he is fighting the Collectors.  That is, as long as the VS (Virmire Survivor) actually put in the report that Shepard saved them.  See?  Big hole there.

 
To evaluate perhaps? 
 
We don't know how proper procedure of introducing someone into Spectre ranks works. Shepard's promotion was a bif of 'field' one, with Saren on the loose and convenient way for Council to get rid of both problems (Saren & humanity pressuring demands). 
Could be as well that the Alliance itself wanted to make sure the candidate would be proper one, without spurring 'Reaper nonsense' or too broken by death of a friend/lover. 
 
Yep, a big hole here. Wouldn't be the first though 

[Spectre_907]

The humans were already nominating many of their own as Spectres after they got a seat on the Council. It's not hard to believe the VS would be on that list. They did aid their first agent on a mission given to him/her by the Council.

[sevach]

azerSheppard wrote...

Ash was not a racist, I do agree that at first she was xenophobic, but later in the game she really opened up. Also Pressley was xenophobic at first, but in the normandy crash site he made me cryu

Very late in the game she was saying and i quote.

"You can't risk human lives trying to save the council, what have they ever done for us???"


So yeah kind of a racist.
Not that this would get in the way of her making spectre... did you hear about Saren? He was a big time racist jerk.

And makes sense that after making the council, humanity would try to make as many humans as possible into spectres and with Shepard "dead" the VS is an obvous candidate.

[LuPoM]

Calinstel wrote...

(...) VS (Virmire Survivor) (...)

Thanks a LOT

[Funkcase]

sevach wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Ash was not a racist, I do agree that at first she was xenophobic, but later in the game she really opened up. Also Pressley was xenophobic at first, but in the normandy crash site he made me cryu

Very late in the game she was saying and i quote.

"You can't risk human lives trying to save the council, what have they ever done for us???"


So yeah kind of a racist.
Not that this would get in the way of her making spectre... did you hear about Saren? He was a big time racist jerk.

And makes sense that after making the council, humanity would try to make as many humans as possible into spectres and with Shepard "dead" the VS is an obvous candidate.

And late on my save game she said ''this is bigger than humanity Sovereign is a threat to every species in the galaxy''

[Spectre_907]

sevach wrote...

"You can't risk human lives trying to save the council, what have they ever done for us???"


So yeah kind of a racist.

How is that racist? Was she arguing that they deserved to die because humans were a superior race? No. In fact she explicitly says the exact opposite during conversations: "I don't think humans have some sort of divine mandate, if that's what you mean. I don't think we're superior."

She's arguing that we shouldn't save them because they never saved humans before. She is somewhat justified in her view. The Council really didn't do anything for humans. Their own short-sightedness and lack of trust in Shepard (regardless of any validity they may have) got them into that predicament. Ashley is right in saying this.

However the opposite line is often said in some playthroughs. The "this is bigger than humanity" line. Same case with Wrex and others that sort of contradicts their previously established viewpoints.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 19 juin 2011 - 09:37 .

[Made Nightwing]

Calinstel wrote...

To start off with, on Eden Prime, she managed to stay alive and evade a huge geth army, (Blasting two combat drones out of the air with a pistol may not seem like much, but shooting a pistol accurately is actually pretty damn hard in RL)

She's a highly trained marine, with top scores in all theoretical tests and practical training exercises. She's noted for a brusque, effective leadership style by her commanding officers.

To the first, a lazy dock worker survived by sleeping and farmers by hiding. 
To the second, even Ashley says she's been groundside her whole career.  Playing guard.  Theoretical? That means a test on paper.  Practical training?  That's training and not real.

True, but she wasn't sleeping or hiding, she was running and gunning the whole time.

Training is bloodless combat and combat is bloody training. That's the precept under which every organised military in the world operates. Training is meant to be AS tough if not tougher than the real thing.

The US military operates several schools for tank warfare where commanders who have done the real thing and won (aka, guys that turned the Iraqi Army into scrap metal during Desert Storm) have gotten their asses kicked by the resident training unit.

Requirements for getting into the SAS, the SEALs or the Delta Force is not combat experience, but training, lots of it. Australian SAS troopers train for eighteen months solid before they're admitted into the Regiment. Training is what builds a soldier. Soldiers who are intelligent, both in practical and theoretical tests, are marked for advancement and special training.

Now for Ashley to regularly excel at theory and practical, demonstrates a remarkable capability as a soldier.

[TCGodzilla]

sevach wrote...

"You can't risk human lives trying to save the council, what have they ever done for us???"

So yeah kind of a racist.
Not that this would get in the way of her making spectre... did you hear about Saren? He was a big time racist jerk.

Your whole crew can say that and in one of my campaigns Tali said that so your argument is invalid.

[Dexi]

DO NOT ANNOY THE ASH FANBOYS THEY WILL EAT YOU!

And I do not understand why the OP finds weird that the VS are Spectres in ME3.
The VS are if not the worst, at least in top 5 worst written characters BW ever did.

Their character arcs SUCK ( even Ashley fans can agree with this) compared with those of the other ME1 crew ( maybe except Garrus, but he became a total badass in ME2 so...)
On Horizon, Ashley's reaction just proved plain stupidity from her part, and Kaidan's made him from a annoyingly boring person to an annoyingly pissed-off-for-no-big-reason person.
Their reactions are both off and contribute to the general feeling of "badly-written-characters".

You could say that "oh, well, after 2 years what'd you expect blabla", but Liara behaved differently, Garrus behaved differently, Tali ( whose Migrant Fleet was directly harmed by Cerberus) behaved differently and Wrex behaved very very differently.



In ME3 they are Spectres. Yes, that doesn't make any sense, but the way their characters evolve until the start of ME3 doesn't make any sense either.
Plus, most likely Kaidan will turn out to be bisexual, to make things even more awkward and out-of-sense ( you'd say that it's not a retcon or anything, he never stated he's 100% straight, but the whole thing adds to the "out-of-sense" feeling anyway).



Deal with it.

[LordEurope]

My problem comes more from the fact that Spectres should be better then the rest. They are the elite, at the top. Of the two Spectres we have seen (Saren and the asari one in Lotsb) they were on Shepards level or at least not very far from it.

Neither VS is even close to being that good.

Ashley is a grunt, she has no special training we know of and very little actual combat experience compared to Shepard.
Kaidens only fault is that he is by-the-book sort of guy.

[AquamanOS]

If by the assumption that a spectre can only be someone that's the best soldier possible with a track record of successes, like Shepard when they were just made Spectre then yeah, it's unlikely.

But this isn't the case. Shepard was made spectre when the council was all aliens, and humans were mistrusted and lower rank to the Asari/Turians/Salarians. Then you'd need to look good, and even then the council wasn't happy about it.

But now, either Humanity controls the council or is at least a prominant member. Now humans can become spectres more easily as there's no barrier to get through. In fact if you went Renegade route in ME2 I think it's mentioned that there are quite a few Human spectres as the human led council wants more of their agents to be their own species.

So really of course Kaidan and Ashley could be made Spectre under those circumstances. They are at the very least, capable soldiers and that's really all you need to be to be a Spectre if you're a race with high council pull. Not all Spectres were incredible badasses like Saren and Shepard. Quite a few were simply good soldiers that mostly got it because they were Turian/Asari/Salarian and they didn't have much to prove.

Does this make sense according to the official definition of Spectres? No not really. Is the council shown to be a totally fair and just as they claim they are. No. They are quite clearly biased in favor of their own species.

Modifié par AquamanOS, 19 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[sevach]

Spectre_907 wrote...

How is that racist? Was she arguing that they deserved to die because humans were a superior race? No. In fact she explicitly says the exact opposite during conversations: "I don't think humans have some sort of divine mandate, if that's what you mean. I don't think we're superior."

She's arguing that we shouldn't save them because they never saved humans before. She is somewhat justified in her view. The Council really didn't do anything for humans. Their own short-sightedness and lack of trust in Shepard (regardless of any validity they may have) got them into that predicament. Ashley is right in saying this.

However the opposite line is often said in some playthroughs. The "this is bigger than humanity" line. Same case with Wrex and others that sort of contradicts their previously established viewpoints.

How is that racist? It's an us against them mentality, simple as that, when the chips are down she sees race as a defining factor.

Never seen Ashley say this is bigger than humanity (so out of character...).
You are right in the sense that there's always one squad member that says that line, give or take (they aren't all HUMAN LIVES!!! rather, i wouldn't do that if i were you), but Ashley seems to be at bottom of the list.

After her comes Wrex (prejudiced against Salarians and Turians), Tali (persecution complex, would be very difficult for her to put the migrant fleet into harms way to save others), Garrus (you could point some resentment towards how things work in the citadel, but doesn't really make sense) and Liara in opposite end of the spectrum.

[ZLurps]

TCGodzilla wrote...

sevach wrote...

"You can't risk human lives trying to save the council, what have they ever done for us???"

So yeah kind of a racist.
Not that this would get in the way of her making spectre... did you hear about Saren? He was a big time racist jerk.

Your whole crew can say that and in one of my campaigns Tali said that so your argument is invalid.

Quoted for the truth.


OP's point would still be invalid even Ash would be racist. Saren for example was a racist and that didn't hindered him being a Spectre that Council valued the most in ME1, though he needed to hide certain things.

Ash however isn't and weren't a racist.

What comes to Horizon, weren't it like Ash / Kaiden were on a N7 or Spectre mission?
In those circumstances VS wouldn't compromise his/her status for getting too friendly with Shepard, VS would be aware that they may get a mission where they need to bring Shepard in. I don't think they would just assasinate Shepard by order of Alliance or Council without very strong evidence that Shepard is a threat to galaxy and without hearing the other side of the story, but not getting too friendly with Shepard IMO makes sense.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

We should just go ahead and make Harkin a Specter also. Now that would be great.

[Pedro Costa]

sevach wrote...

How is that racist? It's an us against them mentality, simple as that, when the chips are down she sees race as a defining factor.

Yes, because it's ALSO a them against us mentality. You really think they'd think twice on throwing us to the wolves if that'd save their species? Seriously? The ingenuity. It is strong. Or simple ignorance of the most basic self-preservation instincts.
Here, I'll let Ash's original writer explain:

I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.

In her first conversation she spells out her thinking pretty explicitly (the bear and dog metaphor), and it's nothing more than a short paraphrase of the most memorable passage in Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski's novel "The Killing Star":

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?

Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.

To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.

http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=3655447#post3655447

Never seen Ashley say this is bigger than humanity (so out of character...).

Just because you never played a game where she says it, it doesn't mean she didn't. Further, it seems you are superimposing your own biased views of her character over her own creator's. L'Etoile decided what was OOC for Ash, that definitely wasn't as he wrote it.

You are right in the sense that there's always one squad member that says that line, give or take (they aren't all HUMAN LIVES!!! rather, i wouldn't do that if i were you), but Ashley seems to be at bottom of the list.

In all my playthroughs she supports helping the Destiny Ascension.

[Antivenger]

Ashley

1.) Is a racist.

2.) Is a xenophobe.

I don't see it this way, but assuming she is racist, the whole point of having a human SpecTRe is to give credibility to humans, to help mainly humans. It wouldn't matter if she resents, or even hates other species. (Which, she doesn't.)

3.) Was completely incapable of handling two Geth in Mass Effect 1.

?? She can handle herself just fine in gameplay, and even in the in-canon cutscene she blasted those synthetics into scrap metal.

4.) Showed no ability to lead or command respect other than being a wannabe "Ripley".

-Shepard plays leader-man in-game.
-She's been stated to be an excellent leader, in Nirali Bhatia's account of her.
-She takes charge of the Salarian STG team on Virmire, assuming she goes with Kirrahe and he dies.

5.) Is overly Emotional.

Again, ?? Where do you get this crap?

-----
Kaiden

1.) Is easily bothered.

Define "easily bothered". Didn't seem too hung up when corpses began springing to life and those colonists on Horizon were kidnapped by monsters right in front of him.

2.) Is overly Emotional but to a lesser degree as Ashley.

Again, ?? Where do you get this crap?

3.) Didn't really care for the council but he wasn't a racist.

So what? H-U-M-A-N-I-T-Y. He may be "officially" under the enlistment of the Council SpecTRes, but the whole point of that is to feed the Systems Alliance's own agendas.

4.) Argued a little with authority?

._.

"Disingenous Assertations"

Modifié par Antivenger, 19 juin 2011 - 10:36 .